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TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-09 23:04:54
July 09 2014 21:08 GMT
#1
After todays events it makes sense to make a statement.

Firstly an apology to all of the fans for letting them down today. We expected Acer to be a tough fight, we have never beaten them in this format (in the playoffs, we have beaten them in groupstage before) though we have many times come within 1 map of it. Innovation is a world-class player who we struggle to beat and we had hoped to bring him down at least once today before he was inevitably revived or we lost to one of Acers many other talented players, but it was not to be. The all-kill was crushing and has unfortunately reinforced a history of being unable to topple Acers lineup.

What we did not expect was to lose to Mousesports and I think it was obvious from our play today that we did not adapt well at all to Sjaaks style. Dropping a couple of maps to a good but unknown player in a teamleague is understandable, particularly when Protoss is a swiss-army knife of potentially deadly builds. Dropping all of them is not acceptable. We as a team failed to adapt to Sjaaks playstyle quickly enough and although Ryung was able to soundly defeat the rest of Mousesports lineup after defeating Sjaak, the inevitable revival of Sjaak in the ace match was enough to send us out of the playoffs in 4th place. This is not the first time we have let fans down in the Acer Teamstory Cup and you have the right and justification to expect better from GSTL champions. Assuming we compete in future team competitions, you can be assured that everyone on the team myself included is taking a long hard look at what went wrong and how we can prevent it from ever happening again. There will be no excuses from any of us for these losses.

I'd also like to apologise to Mousesports fans. When Sjaak was hired I made a flippant remark that was meant in the spirit of friendly banter. TL however doesn't actually allow the use of the word Kappa on the forums, which was meant to indicate that the statement was not serious, so the wording had to be changed. Some fans took it in a way that was not intended but that should have been something I could have foreseen and caused me to choose my words far more carefully. It was evidently our downfall, since Sjaak took it as an opportunity to gain some fame, fame well deserved. He is a talented player with a large library of unpredictable builds, which makes him a potent asset in a teamleague and we wish him more success in the future, particularly when he can compete in WCS. I also apologise particularly to Sjaak for the remark which he may have taken personally, it was not meant as a slight against his skill however that's how it came across and that is my fault entirely.

The risk of banter is of course that it blows back in your face and this time it certainly did. There's enough humble pie here to feed us for days.

Where now?

I think it's obvious that we are no longer a world class team-league force. Our results in ATC this season have been poor. We barely made the playoffs, we lost to teams we really shouldn't have, not to mention almost lost to plenty more. Why the fall from grace? Probably because we simply have not been preparing in the same way that we did for GSTL. When GSTL was the focus, it was really all the team was working towards, it was their top priority. Now with GSTL gone and the future of team-formats outside of Proleague uncertain, it makes more sense for the players to focus on their individual results. Because of this, our placements in WCS have risen, beating better and better players. We've had 2 semi-final finishes back to back with two different players, we've made it to our first individual finals, things have been going pretty well, but they could be an awful lot better. There's plenty more that needs to be done to ensure we can be considered world-class. Whether or not there will even be a reason to prepare for team-leagues in the future is uncertain. GSTL shows no signs of coming back, we don't know if there will be another ATC or whether we will compete in it if there is and of course Proleague is the place where non-KeSPA teams go to get ritually slaughtered for the amusement of the fans. Teamleagues may be a thing of the past and the team we formed to play in one specific teamleague now finds itself having to focus on individual results and ability, where before a well-rounded and deep roster was the best

---

Teamleagues and formats

There's not much choice left for those who want to play team formats in Starcraft 2. Proleague is unattainable for most, ATC is really the only choice alongside SHOUTcraft Clan Wars (that have not been happening lately due to my treatment). I believe the Acer Teamstory Cup format should change in future and I'd like to explain why. The all-kill/revive format favours teams with strong, streaky players over teams with deep rosters. It also makes preparation very difficult. You can prepare to snipe a star player, but can you prepare to snipe them twice? The answer is generally no, particularly with smaller team-lineups than yesteryear. No longer are you dealing with 20-strong Startales, you're dealing with 5-6 man squads, some of which don't even have 3 races. This season of ATC in particular has had huge numbers of all-kills and 3-4 kill streaks, many of course perpetrated by the usual roster of star players. The acquisition of a star player is extremely beneficial for any team, since it usually translates into high finishes at the many individual tournaments, but I do not feel that should be the case in a team match. One player should not carry a team on his back, the win should be a team effort. The match against mouz demonstrated the absurdity of the format quite well on both sides.

Ryung starts off with a solid win, Sjaak then beats Ryung and comes close to all-killing the team. Ryung is then revived, kills Sjaak and comes close to reverse all-killing the team. Sjaak is then revived beating the revived Ryung to end the match 5-4. None of the other players on either team pick up a single win.

That is ridiculous and it shows the very worst of the format. I'm not particularly into all-kill at the best of times and this is certainly an improvement from previous ATC where it was actually possible to face the same player 3 times in a series if one of the limited revives was used. I'm not using this as an excuse, we lost to Mouz fair and square and they almost lost to us fair and square, but really, regardless of how that match went down, was it a team-match or was it just Sjaak vs Ryung at that point? There is a degree of excitement to be derived from all-kill and reverse all-kill, however you can do that without the revive rule, as GSTL demonstrated for years. I believe that if ATC wishes to continue to pursue the all-kill format in future seasons, they should revert to a BO7 series with no revive in the ace match, or switch to a Proleague format, in which an ace revive makes more sense.

As it stands, Proleague format is the best way to test a team. It results in more carefully prepared matches, it rewards teams that prepare properly for their opponents, whereas in this BO9 allkill + revive, preparation is for the most part fairly worthless, it's simply too hard to predict who will come out and even if you can, preparing to snipe a star player twice is basically impossible and that's assuming you even consider sniping valid anymore. Back when the Mothership core didn't exist and queens weren't so powerful, it was perhaps possible to create a cheesy build to snipe a particular player, but these days that's pretty hard to do unless you happen to be Protoss, that have such a large variety of potential all-in/cheeses. I would like to see the other two races given that degree of freedom to but that's another story for another time.

I'd like to poll the readers as to what they prefer.

Poll: If ATC were to do another season, which format should be used?

BO7 Proleague format (478)
 
59%

BO7 all-kill, no ace revive (109)
 
13%

Current format, BO9 all-kill + ace revive (97)
 
12%

BO5 Proleague format (78)
 
10%

Two rounds, allkill+proleague (GSTL S2 format) (48)
 
6%

810 total votes

Your vote: If ATC were to do another season, which format should be used?

(Vote): Current format, BO9 all-kill + ace revive
(Vote): BO7 all-kill, no ace revive
(Vote): BO5 Proleague format
(Vote): BO7 Proleague format
(Vote): Two rounds, allkill+proleague (GSTL S2 format)



I'd personally be ok with any one of those, I think they are all preferable to the current format, plus it's easier to schedule, it's less taxing on the casters and production and is more representative of the strength of a team rather than a strength of an individual player. The challenges put upon a team with the proleague format are of course higher, particularly since they need to guarantee X number of players to be there to play their matches and we have seen that be an issue with a couple of the foreign teams in Clan Wars, but I think it's worthwhile. If we are to still do teamleagues in SC2, then they should be taken seriously and if a team is not willing to commit to that, then they can compete in individual tournaments instead.

Team roster changes during Teamleagues

A final point I would like to make is in regards to changing rosters during Teamleagues. ATC along with Proleague have rules that stipulate you must wait a set amount of time before making roster changes. This is to prevent bringing in unexpected players to throw the opposing team off as well as avoid the possibility of mercenaries being added into the team for short periods of time for the sole purpose of helping the team win their matches. Most sports have similar rules, with transfer and hiring deadlines being common-place.

While I understand that Mousesports was caught in a difficult position after Vortix contract expired, this is something they could have prepared for well in advance. The addition of new players right before the playoffs (in the case of Sjaak, about 48 hours before) was not in the spirit of the competition and seems to violate the spirit of ATC. As far as I am aware, ATC does not have a rules stipulation that covers this situation, so had to make an executive decision. I disagreed with this decision and made my opinion known to the admins a few weeks back. The other teams were also consulted, but I will not speak for them. Mousesports could not have done this during the regular season, they would have been forced to wait several matches before fielding a new player. The addition of new players at such short notice gives an edge to a team whose opponents are a known quantity and makes the already difficult preparation for such a match even more challenging. I feel that in future ATC should provide clear stipulations that indicate a team must announce roster changes at least 2 weeks in advance of the playoffs and that failure to do so would result in a disqualification and replacement by the next team in the rankings.

This opinion should in no way be construed as the belief that we lost due to Mousesports conduct and the decision of ATC. We lost because we weren't good enough to beat Sjaak and that is entirely our fault. My concern is for the integrity of the league in the future and to ensure that every team is treated equitably.

---

Once again our apologies to all of our fans and sponsors for the disappointing results today. We all share the blame for this failure and we will do our best to make sure it is never repeated.



****
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Soke
Profile Joined September 2012
United States790 Posts
July 09 2014 21:18 GMT
#2
Really interesting write up. I agree with most of your points here and wish Axiom the best of luck in the future! :D
Djsoke
MaxiTB
Profile Joined June 2011
Austria34 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-09 21:21:43
July 09 2014 21:20 GMT
#3
Excellent summary, expected quality, honesty and transparency.

I guess there is nothing more to add beside that defeat is part of the game.
No need to apologize, it's enough you guys look into it and try to get better :-)

Thanks TB.
From the Shadows I come, to cumulative stats I go (http://shoutcraft.maxisoft.org)
makk
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom132 Posts
July 09 2014 21:20 GMT
#4
I really dislike all kill formats. The first couple of times you see one it is cool, but when it happens every other week it quickly becomes boring.
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
July 09 2014 21:27 GMT
#5
I'm for a consistent format for all team leagues. Thanks for the write-up, and thank you for sending out that note about the cynical laugh emote on Twitch. I was legitimately upset when I found out it was gone. (jk not that upset )
TL+ Member
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
July 09 2014 21:31 GMT
#6
Wise words, bo7 proleague format would be epic. I really hope they change the current format. Also people shouldn't take banter so seriously, it's part of the game and why I love players like MC, Nerchio, XlorD, Stephano etc. Teamleagues are the perfect opportunity to take jabs at each other and create rivalries. I hope your next week will be better btw .
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
July 09 2014 21:32 GMT
#7
Rough day for Axiom. But $2,000 is still a nice prize for the team, and making the playoffs over mYi and YoeFW is still a solid result.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
MarinePrince
Profile Joined October 2011
United States101 Posts
July 09 2014 21:36 GMT
#8
The Acer Teamstory Cup is my favorite regular SC2 tournament during its season. Nothing compares in the foreign universe of SC2 play.

I'd love to see it return for a Season 4 in a BO9 Proleague Format. That would fucking insane.
"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." - Albert Einstein
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-09 21:39:58
July 09 2014 21:38 GMT
#9
On July 10 2014 06:32 Bagration wrote:
Rough day for Axiom. But $2,000 is still a nice prize for the team, and making the playoffs over mYi and YoeFW is still a solid result.


Oddly enough we make about the same money coming 4th than we would coming 2nd due to flight costs (costs about $6,000 to get the entire team to Krefield, sometimes more, compensation for travel from ATC is $3,000). That's all academic ofc since we don't take players prizemoney, but it's weird that we could pay them $3000 out of our own pocket and it would cost the same as sending them for the finals.

I'd love to see it return for a Season 4 in a BO9 Proleague Format. That would fucking insane.


Every team would have to ally with another for that to work. No-one is really large enough these days. IT makes little sense to have a large Starcraft team, you get some serious diminishing returns.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Vertitto
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland750 Posts
July 09 2014 21:48 GMT
#10
isn't bo7 a bit too big?

Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.
FISH MAKE BLUB BLUB
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
July 09 2014 21:49 GMT
#11
Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?
kiss kiss fall in love
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
July 09 2014 21:49 GMT
#12
As much as I enjoy watching Innovation kill nerds, I think that a proleague format is way fairer, so that the team is actually rewarded and not just the star player. Or rather the team actually matters, and not only the star player.
It's great to see your players do well in individual leagues too though, and I suppose it's hard to prepare for teamleagues as well as preparing for your WCS games. In Sjaak's case, I suppose it's hard to prepare for him at all at the moment given the very few televised games he played, and the very all inish and unconventional style he plays. Better luck next time, Axiom's player are great and I've no doubt they'll bounce back.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
July 09 2014 21:51 GMT
#13
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote:
isn't bo7 a bit too big?

Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.


You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-09 21:55:22
July 09 2014 21:51 GMT
#14
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote:
isn't bo7 a bit too big?

Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.


BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).

BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.

Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?


BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits to doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.

You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.


For All-kill this is true. For Proleague you need 6 (game 7 uses ace rule).
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-09 21:55:50
July 09 2014 21:55 GMT
#15
On July 10 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote:
isn't bo7 a bit too big?

Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.


BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).

BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.

Show nested quote +
Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?


BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits of doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.

Show nested quote +
You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.


For All-kill this is true. For Proleague you need 6 (game 7 uses ace rule).


Oh right, I am stupid. SPL is actually using bo5 and not bo7 . Damn I voted wrong then, I think bo5 is good for foreign teams in Proleague format.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
July 09 2014 21:57 GMT
#16
On July 10 2014 06:55 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote:
isn't bo7 a bit too big?

Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.


BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).

BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.

Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?


BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits of doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.

You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.


For All-kill this is true. For Proleague you need 6 (game 7 uses ace rule).


Oh right, I am stupid. SPL is actually using bo5 and not bo7 . Damn I voted wrong then, I think bo5 is good for foreign teams in Proleague format.


allows both depth and superstar (you can win 2 out of the 3 win required) to shine. best format considering the state of sc2 teams atm.
Zest fanboy.
Yhamm
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
France7248 Posts
July 09 2014 21:58 GMT
#17
well, you did make the poll after all ^^
LiquipediaWe will have only each other at the last
KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25658 Posts
July 09 2014 21:58 GMT
#18
To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D

Good post obviously, I like hearing your thoughts about formats etc.
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
July 09 2014 22:03 GMT
#19
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote:
To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D



In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".

Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
July 09 2014 22:05 GMT
#20
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote:
To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D

Good post obviously, I like hearing your thoughts about formats etc.


possible, but getting harder and harder without the k-word
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
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1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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