After todays events it makes sense to make a statement.
Firstly an apology to all of the fans for letting them down today. We expected Acer to be a tough fight, we have never beaten them in this format (in the playoffs, we have beaten them in groupstage before) though we have many times come within 1 map of it. Innovation is a world-class player who we struggle to beat and we had hoped to bring him down at least once today before he was inevitably revived or we lost to one of Acers many other talented players, but it was not to be. The all-kill was crushing and has unfortunately reinforced a history of being unable to topple Acers lineup.
What we did not expect was to lose to Mousesports and I think it was obvious from our play today that we did not adapt well at all to Sjaaks style. Dropping a couple of maps to a good but unknown player in a teamleague is understandable, particularly when Protoss is a swiss-army knife of potentially deadly builds. Dropping all of them is not acceptable. We as a team failed to adapt to Sjaaks playstyle quickly enough and although Ryung was able to soundly defeat the rest of Mousesports lineup after defeating Sjaak, the inevitable revival of Sjaak in the ace match was enough to send us out of the playoffs in 4th place. This is not the first time we have let fans down in the Acer Teamstory Cup and you have the right and justification to expect better from GSTL champions. Assuming we compete in future team competitions, you can be assured that everyone on the team myself included is taking a long hard look at what went wrong and how we can prevent it from ever happening again. There will be no excuses from any of us for these losses.
I'd also like to apologise to Mousesports fans. When Sjaak was hired I made a flippant remark that was meant in the spirit of friendly banter. TL however doesn't actually allow the use of the word Kappa on the forums, which was meant to indicate that the statement was not serious, so the wording had to be changed. Some fans took it in a way that was not intended but that should have been something I could have foreseen and caused me to choose my words far more carefully. It was evidently our downfall, since Sjaak took it as an opportunity to gain some fame, fame well deserved. He is a talented player with a large library of unpredictable builds, which makes him a potent asset in a teamleague and we wish him more success in the future, particularly when he can compete in WCS. I also apologise particularly to Sjaak for the remark which he may have taken personally, it was not meant as a slight against his skill however that's how it came across and that is my fault entirely.
The risk of banter is of course that it blows back in your face and this time it certainly did. There's enough humble pie here to feed us for days.
Where now?
I think it's obvious that we are no longer a world class team-league force. Our results in ATC this season have been poor. We barely made the playoffs, we lost to teams we really shouldn't have, not to mention almost lost to plenty more. Why the fall from grace? Probably because we simply have not been preparing in the same way that we did for GSTL. When GSTL was the focus, it was really all the team was working towards, it was their top priority. Now with GSTL gone and the future of team-formats outside of Proleague uncertain, it makes more sense for the players to focus on their individual results. Because of this, our placements in WCS have risen, beating better and better players. We've had 2 semi-final finishes back to back with two different players, we've made it to our first individual finals, things have been going pretty well, but they could be an awful lot better. There's plenty more that needs to be done to ensure we can be considered world-class. Whether or not there will even be a reason to prepare for team-leagues in the future is uncertain. GSTL shows no signs of coming back, we don't know if there will be another ATC or whether we will compete in it if there is and of course Proleague is the place where non-KeSPA teams go to get ritually slaughtered for the amusement of the fans. Teamleagues may be a thing of the past and the team we formed to play in one specific teamleague now finds itself having to focus on individual results and ability, where before a well-rounded and deep roster was the best
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Teamleagues and formats
There's not much choice left for those who want to play team formats in Starcraft 2. Proleague is unattainable for most, ATC is really the only choice alongside SHOUTcraft Clan Wars (that have not been happening lately due to my treatment). I believe the Acer Teamstory Cup format should change in future and I'd like to explain why. The all-kill/revive format favours teams with strong, streaky players over teams with deep rosters. It also makes preparation very difficult. You can prepare to snipe a star player, but can you prepare to snipe them twice? The answer is generally no, particularly with smaller team-lineups than yesteryear. No longer are you dealing with 20-strong Startales, you're dealing with 5-6 man squads, some of which don't even have 3 races. This season of ATC in particular has had huge numbers of all-kills and 3-4 kill streaks, many of course perpetrated by the usual roster of star players. The acquisition of a star player is extremely beneficial for any team, since it usually translates into high finishes at the many individual tournaments, but I do not feel that should be the case in a team match. One player should not carry a team on his back, the win should be a team effort. The match against mouz demonstrated the absurdity of the format quite well on both sides.
Ryung starts off with a solid win, Sjaak then beats Ryung and comes close to all-killing the team. Ryung is then revived, kills Sjaak and comes close to reverse all-killing the team. Sjaak is then revived beating the revived Ryung to end the match 5-4. None of the other players on either team pick up a single win.
That is ridiculous and it shows the very worst of the format. I'm not particularly into all-kill at the best of times and this is certainly an improvement from previous ATC where it was actually possible to face the same player 3 times in a series if one of the limited revives was used. I'm not using this as an excuse, we lost to Mouz fair and square and they almost lost to us fair and square, but really, regardless of how that match went down, was it a team-match or was it just Sjaak vs Ryung at that point? There is a degree of excitement to be derived from all-kill and reverse all-kill, however you can do that without the revive rule, as GSTL demonstrated for years. I believe that if ATC wishes to continue to pursue the all-kill format in future seasons, they should revert to a BO7 series with no revive in the ace match, or switch to a Proleague format, in which an ace revive makes more sense.
As it stands, Proleague format is the best way to test a team. It results in more carefully prepared matches, it rewards teams that prepare properly for their opponents, whereas in this BO9 allkill + revive, preparation is for the most part fairly worthless, it's simply too hard to predict who will come out and even if you can, preparing to snipe a star player twice is basically impossible and that's assuming you even consider sniping valid anymore. Back when the Mothership core didn't exist and queens weren't so powerful, it was perhaps possible to create a cheesy build to snipe a particular player, but these days that's pretty hard to do unless you happen to be Protoss, that have such a large variety of potential all-in/cheeses. I would like to see the other two races given that degree of freedom to but that's another story for another time.
I'd like to poll the readers as to what they prefer.
Poll: If ATC were to do another season, which format should be used?
BO7 Proleague format (478)
59%
BO7 all-kill, no ace revive (109)
13%
Current format, BO9 all-kill + ace revive (97)
12%
BO5 Proleague format (78)
10%
Two rounds, allkill+proleague (GSTL S2 format) (48)
6%
810 total votes
Your vote: If ATC were to do another season, which format should be used?
(Vote): Current format, BO9 all-kill + ace revive (Vote): BO7 all-kill, no ace revive (Vote): BO5 Proleague format (Vote): BO7 Proleague format (Vote): Two rounds, allkill+proleague (GSTL S2 format)
I'd personally be ok with any one of those, I think they are all preferable to the current format, plus it's easier to schedule, it's less taxing on the casters and production and is more representative of the strength of a team rather than a strength of an individual player. The challenges put upon a team with the proleague format are of course higher, particularly since they need to guarantee X number of players to be there to play their matches and we have seen that be an issue with a couple of the foreign teams in Clan Wars, but I think it's worthwhile. If we are to still do teamleagues in SC2, then they should be taken seriously and if a team is not willing to commit to that, then they can compete in individual tournaments instead.
Team roster changes during Teamleagues
A final point I would like to make is in regards to changing rosters during Teamleagues. ATC along with Proleague have rules that stipulate you must wait a set amount of time before making roster changes. This is to prevent bringing in unexpected players to throw the opposing team off as well as avoid the possibility of mercenaries being added into the team for short periods of time for the sole purpose of helping the team win their matches. Most sports have similar rules, with transfer and hiring deadlines being common-place.
While I understand that Mousesports was caught in a difficult position after Vortix contract expired, this is something they could have prepared for well in advance. The addition of new players right before the playoffs (in the case of Sjaak, about 48 hours before) was not in the spirit of the competition and seems to violate the spirit of ATC. As far as I am aware, ATC does not have a rules stipulation that covers this situation, so had to make an executive decision. I disagreed with this decision and made my opinion known to the admins a few weeks back. The other teams were also consulted, but I will not speak for them. Mousesports could not have done this during the regular season, they would have been forced to wait several matches before fielding a new player. The addition of new players at such short notice gives an edge to a team whose opponents are a known quantity and makes the already difficult preparation for such a match even more challenging. I feel that in future ATC should provide clear stipulations that indicate a team must announce roster changes at least 2 weeks in advance of the playoffs and that failure to do so would result in a disqualification and replacement by the next team in the rankings.
This opinion should in no way be construed as the belief that we lost due to Mousesports conduct and the decision of ATC. We lost because we weren't good enough to beat Sjaak and that is entirely our fault. My concern is for the integrity of the league in the future and to ensure that every team is treated equitably.
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Once again our apologies to all of our fans and sponsors for the disappointing results today. We all share the blame for this failure and we will do our best to make sure it is never repeated.
Excellent summary, expected quality, honesty and transparency.
I guess there is nothing more to add beside that defeat is part of the game. No need to apologize, it's enough you guys look into it and try to get better :-)
I'm for a consistent format for all team leagues. Thanks for the write-up, and thank you for sending out that note about the cynical laugh emote on Twitch. I was legitimately upset when I found out it was gone. (jk not that upset )
Wise words, bo7 proleague format would be epic. I really hope they change the current format. Also people shouldn't take banter so seriously, it's part of the game and why I love players like MC, Nerchio, XlorD, Stephano etc. Teamleagues are the perfect opportunity to take jabs at each other and create rivalries. I hope your next week will be better btw .
On July 10 2014 06:32 Bagration wrote: Rough day for Axiom. But $2,000 is still a nice prize for the team, and making the playoffs over mYi and YoeFW is still a solid result.
Oddly enough we make about the same money coming 4th than we would coming 2nd due to flight costs (costs about $6,000 to get the entire team to Krefield, sometimes more, compensation for travel from ATC is $3,000). That's all academic ofc since we don't take players prizemoney, but it's weird that we could pay them $3000 out of our own pocket and it would cost the same as sending them for the finals.
I'd love to see it return for a Season 4 in a BO9 Proleague Format. That would fucking insane.
Every team would have to ally with another for that to work. No-one is really large enough these days. IT makes little sense to have a large Starcraft team, you get some serious diminishing returns.
As much as I enjoy watching Innovation kill nerds, I think that a proleague format is way fairer, so that the team is actually rewarded and not just the star player. Or rather the team actually matters, and not only the star player. It's great to see your players do well in individual leagues too though, and I suppose it's hard to prepare for teamleagues as well as preparing for your WCS games. In Sjaak's case, I suppose it's hard to prepare for him at all at the moment given the very few televised games he played, and the very all inish and unconventional style he plays. Better luck next time, Axiom's player are great and I've no doubt they'll bounce back.
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote: isn't bo7 a bit too big?
Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.
BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).
BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.
Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?
BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits to doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.
You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.
For All-kill this is true. For Proleague you need 6 (game 7 uses ace rule).
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote: isn't bo7 a bit too big?
Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.
BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).
BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.
Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?
BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits of doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.
On July 10 2014 06:48 Vertitto wrote: isn't bo7 a bit too big?
Most teams don't even have so many players in their rosters.
BO7 with ace would require 6 players. Most teams could manage it, though you'd likely see more alliances to bolster the roster size (some teams would have to do this).
BO5 proleague makes sense in my mind, it also means you can crack through the series faster and get more done in a shorter period of time, rather than what's currently happening where the amount of matchs is massive and the matchs themselves also very long.
Which of your five suggestions do you think is the best for foreign teams, TotalBiscuit?
BO5 proleague with ace. Requires 4 players minimum which all foreign teams of significance have, still gives a nice edge to those with star players but not complete dominance (a star player can only win 2 maps max and only if it goes to the ace), while also demonstrating a teams depth and preparatory skills, without requiring a huge roster. There are obvious broadcast benefits of doing 2 sets back to back on a broadcast day as well, the same way Proleague does it.
You would need 4 players, perfect size imo.
For All-kill this is true. For Proleague you need 6 (game 7 uses ace rule).
Oh right, I am stupid. SPL is actually using bo5 and not bo7 . Damn I voted wrong then, I think bo5 is good for foreign teams in Proleague format.
allows both depth and superstar (you can win 2 out of the 3 win required) to shine. best format considering the state of sc2 teams atm.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
Careful now, most mods don't like it getting compared to Stalin or Hitler.
There are still enough other emotes for sarcasm, sadly they are so misused/misunderstand since the old BBS days, nobody notice them anymore.
... buy a bunch of koreans, get carried in GSTL by Inno, dis a 16 year old. Then lose to the 16 year old then complain about the format. Common i'm just waiting for the complaint that reddit is hoarding in on your profits.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
As per usual, I agree with most everything you say TB. Proleague format would be cool to see in foreign team tournaments, though the one thing that comes to mind is the interview with Coach Park about EG-TL. I remember him saying that they really didn't want to practice in a way that would lead to success in proleague (admittedly in the way that Coach Park wanted to do things), but I think the sentiment might speak to the general feeling of foreign team tournaments. The players might not want to practice specific builds for a specific map against a specific opponent when they could rather practice for their individual results, as many of the Korean players joined foreign teams to go to more foreign tournaments. Again, I don't know the players and teams well enough to know how this would all go down in reality, but I think it's something to consider.
Then again, if a team doesn't prepare for the proleague format, then they deserve to lose anyways.
On July 10 2014 07:15 MysterySC wrote: ... buy a bunch of koreans, get carried in GSTL by Inno, dis a 16 year old. Then lose to the 16 year old then complain about the format. Common i'm just waiting for the complaint that reddit is hoarding in on your profits.
You can come back to me when you've spent six figures making sure a group of players who were by no means top koreans when we hired them, have a roof over there heads and fair salaries for the past two years. As for who carried who, I don't recall Innovations contributions giving us a 4:0 result in the proleague stage, but I'd sure you would know more about teamleagues than I do.
Your spiteful words unfortunately have no value, monetary or otherwise. Take your worthless attitude elsewhere and find another scene to poison.
On July 10 2014 07:15 MysterySC wrote: ... buy a bunch of koreans, get carried in GSTL by Inno, dis a 16 year old. Then lose to the 16 year old then complain about the format. Common i'm just waiting for the complaint that reddit is hoarding in on your profits.
He's always said he prefer a different format, that's not a reaction to losing. Also it's not like he "bought" a bunch of high profile players for ez bucks...
Have you any thoughts about handing the reins of Clan Wars to someone else for the moment? It's a very nifty series that provides good coverage of players while also being a nice testing ground for different and innovative maps.
On July 10 2014 07:24 Spect8rCraft wrote: Have you any thoughts about handing the reins of Clan Wars to someone else for the moment? It's a very nifty series that provides good coverage of players while also being a nice testing ground for different and innovative maps.
Nobody else really has the contacts to make it work at the moment.
When I see some teams who have difficulties to have players present, I have the feeling it would be even more difficult if ATC used PL format.
I think the best would be a mix like GSTL (1 round AK, 1 round PL) or this weird format with 3 maps PL and the rest AK (but same players can't play both)
ATC absolutely needs to get rid of the revive if they stick to the AK format
Such salt, i'm not poison... I'm a young adult formerly very into SC but now working to much to really play or watch that much (because I also make 6 figures...) I was just bothered by you not only dissing the format of a tournament after you lost, but diminishing a 16 year olds impressive victory after calling him a free win. I wouldn't have even commented on that but you really feel insecure enough you make a poll so people can vote to diminish the kid... come on your a well known youtube star who will get more views than him even if he beat your team 5 times over. Let the kid have his day in the sun.
On July 10 2014 07:15 MysterySC wrote: ... buy a bunch of koreans, get carried in GSTL by Inno, dis a 16 year old. Then lose to the 16 year old then complain about the format. Common i'm just waiting for the complaint that reddit is hoarding in on your profits.
You can come back to me when you've spent six figures making sure a group of players who were by no means top koreans when we hired them, have a roof over there heads and fair salaries for the past two years. As for who carried who, I don't recall Innovations contributions giving us a 4:0 result in the proleague stage, but I'd sure you would know more about teamleagues than I do.
Your spiteful words unfortunately have no value, monetary or otherwise. Take your worthless attitude elsewhere and find another scene to poison.
could it be that this post is meant in the same spirit of humour as your comment about sjaak being a freewin for your team?
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
It really doesn't take much to get you going these days -.-
On July 10 2014 07:26 MysterySC wrote: Such salt, i'm not poison... I'm a young adult formerly very into SC but now working to much to really play or watch that much (because I also make 6 figures...) I was just bothered by you not only dissing the format of a tournament after you lost, but diminishing a 16 year olds impressive victory after calling him a free win. I wouldn't have even commented on that but you really feel insecure enough you make a poll so people can vote to diminish the kid... come on your a well known youtube star who will get more views than him even if he beat your team 5 times over. Let the kid have his day in the sun.
You didn't even read the post did you? Or are 3 paragraphs of apologies not enough for you? I'm sorry that my contributions to the scene are somehow not up to your standards and that you feel you have the right to shit on our teams past accomplishments, have the nerve to call them "a bunch of Koreans" as if they're just faceless commodoties to acquire and not at this point both friends and family and then the audacity to call me salty in response.
People like you we would be infinitely better off without.
It really doesn't take much to get you going these days -.-
Turns out cancer treatment does that to a person, who knew.
could it be that this post is meant in the same spirit of humour as your comment about sjaak being a freewin for your team?
Then I expect 3 paragraphs worth of apology from him momentarily. Oh no wait never mind, he posted yet another shitty post, who would have expected that?
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
It really doesn't take much to get you going these days -.-
Personally I am surprised it even got actioned, I just skipped reporting it because I was certain it wouldn't get actioned anyways
Don't think you owed any explanation after your earlier remarks (people get a bit too worked up over over-the-cuff remarks I think). That being said, it was great to read your thoughts explained clearly and logically and I agree with nearly everything in your post.
You shouldn't have to worry about Internet trolls. All you should have to worry about is getting better, but thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with the community.
On July 10 2014 07:15 MysterySC wrote: ... buy a bunch of koreans, get carried in GSTL by Inno, dis a 16 year old. Then lose to the 16 year old then complain about the format. Common i'm just waiting for the complaint that reddit is hoarding in on your profits.
He's always said he prefer a different format, that's not a reaction to losing. Also it's not like he "bought" a bunch of high profile players for ez bucks...
Seriously, this is the exact opposite of what Axiom was founded to do. It was created to provide better conditions for certain players that were getting paid next-to-nothing or nothing at all with other teams. When Axiom was founded it was basically a team of outcasts, but it turns out their system and a supportive environment actually seem to help players develop.
This is exactly why I stopped watching the ATC. It's become more like the NBA: it masquerades as a team league, when in reality it's pitting one star player against another with a supporting cast that, while it sometimes gets a chance at the spotlight, is usually relegated to watching and passing the ball.
The worst part about the format isn't even the boring 1v1-ness. The worst part is that these teams have a lot of good-but-not-famous players that aren't getting the spotlight they need to gather fanbases and improve their skills against evenly-matched opponents. They aren't getting the chance to *become* the next Innovation; they just become another footnote in his rampage (insert any "star" player in place of Innovation for the same effect; not a dis to the person just the "star' idea).
Meanwhile, in a league like Clan Wars or the late GSTL, a lot of players are given that chance. Personally, as a 'casual' SC2 fan I never would have known about Balloon, for example, if I hadn't seen him play in Clan Wars. Now I watch his stream regularly. Whenever I tuned in to ATC, however, I'd only see the same few players competing. It just wasn't fun.
Perhaps this is why I enjoyed WCS America so much this past week, and found myself rooting for Pigbaby the whole way through. It's fun to watch new and talented players compete against the "old guard," and ATC just didn't have enough of that for my tastes.
I think it's good to have an all-kill format in the midst of other types of formats. However, with ATC being effectively the only teamleague outside of Proleague (at least, of similar caliber), I feel like the all-kill format is stifling non-streaky players from being able to show enough prospective behavior. All-kills seem like a good place for a developed player to try their luck and make a show of it; not so much for fostering talent if every time a newbie comes up they just get smacked down by the big shot.
Proleague format seems better to promoting diverse opponents to play against, as well as more strategic management for the team. Heaven knows we need the infrastructure to properly sustain the pro scene.
I did read the post... can we agree that basic literacy is a given here... lol ? I really respect your post, if you lurk my comments a few years ago i mentioned something roughly saying that although i was never a huge fan of your casting, the fact that you picked up a bunch of ex slayers players was really classy and good for the scene. My fundamental problem today is that your creating a story about yourself here when the big deal should be a 16 year old relatively unknown foreigner taking down an all korean team. Also... as a very influential person in the community maybe try and ratchet down the personal attacks, something my parents taught me at a young age, and something that most adults really try and uphold when they are a public influential voice to a younger generation. One of my best friends and roommate in undergrad was Korean... basically everybody in the community calls koreans, koreans due to the SC skill implications not due to some kind of weird racist agenda. (why did i just have to explain that?)
I always felt like atc had the revival rule because acer had a relatively shallow lineup for a long time (with 1-2 extremely strong players) and so revives (especially the 3 revive season) helped them perform better.
The rules make a lot of sense when I consider them in this way, regardless of if I agree or not.
On July 10 2014 07:45 MysterySC wrote: I did read the post... can we agree that basic literacy is a given here... lol ? I really respect your post, if you lurk my comments a few years ago i mentioned something roughly saying that although i was never a huge fan of your casting, the fact that you picked up a bunch of ex slayers players was really classy and good for the scene. My fundamental problem today is that your creating a story about yourself here when the big deal should be a 16 year old relatively unknown foreigner taking down an all korean team. Also... as a very influential person in the community maybe try and ratchet down the personal attacks, something my parents taught me at a young age, and something that most adults really try and uphold when they are a public influential voice to a younger generation. One of my best friends and roommate in undergrad was Korean... basically everybody in the community calls koreans, koreans due to the SC skill implications not due to some kind of weird racist agenda. (why did i just have to explain that?)
What you think the story is has no relevance here. Want to write your own "story"? Go and write your own blog. I won't be as disrespectful in yours as you have been in mine.
On July 10 2014 07:51 qxc wrote: I always felt like atc had the revival rule because acer had a relatively shallow lineup for a long time (with 1-2 extremely strong players) and so revives (especially the 3 revive season) helped them perform better.
The rules make a lot of sense when I consider them in this way, regardless of if I agree or not.
As a team cup it should more focus on the whole team than on "aces". A BO7 format where each player is only allowed to play at most 3 games (no matter the outcome) would be more interesting to watch other than one player dominating and maybe some others having a cameo appearance.
But that's only my personal preference as a viewer.
So, good night everyone - I finished watching the world cup nerd-style (http://sport.orf.at/fifawm2014/liveticker/#/live/?match=0), time to go to bed !
On July 10 2014 06:08 TotalBiscuit wrote: After todays events it makes sense to make a statement.
Firstly an apology to all of the fans for letting them down today. We expected Acer to be a tough fight, we have never beaten them in this format though we have many times come within 1 map of it.
This isn't quite true as Axiom defeated Acer 5-3 in the opening round of the Acer Teamstory Cup Season 2.
The article is a good one though and I really hope to see a strong Axiom performance next season in (hopefully) a pro-league format!
Never liked all kill formats. Never have, never will. Whether I am watching it, or playing in a tourney, I prefer it when you cannot repeat players, except for the ace match. As you already said, TB, it is much easier for a player to prepare map specifically. And when you prepare map specifics, you have a better shot of sniping top players (as well as the whole strategy of trying to guess who they other team is going to send out on what map.)
But it seems to me, if the trouble is that some teams are not very large, best of 7 might be over-ambitious. Best of 5 works great for small teams. If there is an ace match, technically you only need 4 people on your team.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
Good post obviously, I like hearing your thoughts about formats etc.
possible, but getting harder and harder without the k-word
I never understood this whole kappa thing so can anyone explain me why it made harder to make sarcastic/ironic comments that could be read as such?
k is just a universally accepted way of indicating your comment isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's nice.
I thought "j/k" was still a thing
Nice blog though, I was disapointed about Axioms loss, your players weren't in great shape imho. I was obviously rooting for Ax because Ryung (imbaimbaimba)and Heart. I really think balance has a thing to do with the overall result of Ax vs mouz but Sjaak did well anyway so who knows.
I really think we need another teamleague, a comeback of the GSTL would be awesome. Or a foreign Pro League in addition with ATC would be cool too.
On July 10 2014 06:27 Ctone23 wrote: I'm for a consistent format for all team leagues. Thanks for the write-up, and thank you for sending out that note about the cynical laugh emote on Twitch. I was legitimately upset when I found out it was gone. (jk not that upset )
I was lol. It is genuinely my favourite emote aside from the cynicalAndmyax one. I totally get why it's gone though and I'm really glad though that TB is going to try and remake it somehow.
... No relevance? Probably similar relevance that any comment on forums has. By blog I'm sure you mean commenting on TL like your initial post? I refrained from personal attacks especially ones as pathetic as claiming someone can't read or is a racist... I can tell that you really don't want me to comment here anymore so enjoy have your fun here sans opinion.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
Good post obviously, I like hearing your thoughts about formats etc.
possible, but getting harder and harder without the k-word
I never understood this whole kappa thing so can anyone explain me why it made harder to make sarcastic/ironic comments that could be read as such?
k is just a universally accepted way of indicating your comment isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's nice.
ah, ok well thx for the explanation. I should maybe hangout more in twitch chat
Anyways whatever happens, I wish you and the players good luck. Sometimes there are mediocre, even bad performances but those tend to "awaken" players. Happened in Football Championship to the Germans, and as a KT Fan I hope that happens to them in the PL Finals, as their last round was... not the best.
I think one round all-kill (Bo7 without revive) and one round Proleague-mode (Bo5 with ace) would be very nice but there would be too many matches (132). Thus maybe if the 12 teams are split in two groups, it would be doable (60 matches vs 66 right now).
2 groups of 6 teams, the #1 goes to the semifinals and the #2 and #3 from each group fight in playoffs.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
Good post obviously, I like hearing your thoughts about formats etc.
possible, but getting harder and harder without the k-word
I never understood this whole kappa thing so can anyone explain me why it made harder to make sarcastic/ironic comments that could be read as such?
k is just a universally accepted way of indicating your comment isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's nice.
I tend to disagree here. Sarcasm kinda loses it's point, when it can be detected without thinking and kappa allows just that.
Anyway, about things, that actually matter: If a PL format would be implemented, would you agree, that the single matches should be bo3 instead of bo1? I feel that one bo1 per week does not really give a player that much oppurtunity to shine and also allows bigger upsets to happen (ofc a worse player can upset someone better in bo1 all-kill as well, but they will get eliminated sooner or later) and bo3 could fix both of those things to a certain point.
In either case, thanks for sharing your opinion and I hope to face you in next seasons playoffs again.
On July 10 2014 08:28 MysterySC wrote: ... No relevance? Probably similar relevance that any comment on forums has. By blog I'm sure you mean commenting on TL like your initial post? I refrained from personal attacks especially ones as pathetic as claiming someone can't read or is a racist... I can tell that you really don't want me to comment here anymore so enjoy have your fun here sans opinion.
Tb want to make a blog about his team performance and what he thinks about the format of ATC and you are blaming him for not making a story about Sjaak ? What's wrong with you ? Do it yourself if you want it so badly.
I like what TB says and i think changing the system would be a great idea. Its not always black or white you have to consider the number of players in a team and which format you exactly take and earn experience in what you do...hmm...what i dont think make sense is to say that unknown players dont have the chance to present themself in ATC (Dunno who said that in the comments) cause just today someone prooved his value and quite a few did before (Dayshi in the last seasons) and others.
But i am actually also a fan of trying to make it "more a teamleague" i was always super sad that 2on2 suckz so much in SC2 and is imo not balanced enough. It would have been a great addition.
Tbh its not sure if and when we have a new ATC even when i would like to do one more in SC2 its pretty tough to get new budgets for SC2 and i am fighting very hard for that... I already thought a lot about it and if there are options if we do not get the full budget...
On July 10 2014 09:31 TaKeSeN wrote: I like what TB says and i think changing the system would be a great idea. Its not always black or white you have to consider the number of players in a team and which format you exactly take and earn experience in what you do...hmm...what i dont think make sense is to say that unknown players dont have the chance to present themself in ATC (Dunno who said that in the comments) cause just today someone prooved his value and quite a few did before (Dayshi in the last seasons) and others.
But i am actually also a fan of trying to make it "more a teamleague" i was always super sad that 2on2 suckz so much in SC2 and is imo not balanced enough. It would have been a great addition.
Tbh its not sure if and when we have a new ATC even when i would like to do one more in SC2 its pretty tough to get new budgets for SC2 and i am fighting very hard for that... I already thought a lot about it and if there are options if we do not get the full budget...
Lets see what the future says!
Thanks for the write up!
//Dennis
That's great to hear. Would be really cool to see teams have a proleague like experience outside of proleague. IE lineups announced in advance so players can plan builds etc. Maybe even have a 2v2 like clanwars for one of the matches which players can double up in so teams don't need so many players to compete. Honestly, I would be happy with just the revive rule being binned. Innovation x2 is pretty much impossible for any team outside of Korea and perhaps liquid.
He's not using it as an excuse. He's merely pointing out that he's bloody miserable and it's playing havoc with his emotional control.
Anyway, TB's original points are well made. BO5 Proleague format is probably the best choice overall (voted BO7, but as was pointed out that's not exactly realistic). All Kill is fun to see for a round in Proleague every now and then to let the stars (and occasional surprise) show off, but it doesn't seem like a healthy foundation for a team competition.
It really doesn't take much to get you going these days -.-
Turns out cancer treatment does that to a person, who knew.
Trust you to use that as a reason to be a complete prick and belittle people suffering from the disease, including yourself.
IDK, i keep looking at this comment and thinking its harsh but you really shouldn't use something like cancer as an excuse like that.
Asked if I'm on a short fuse lately.
Explains why
Accused of being a complete prick and belittling cancer patients, all while being belittled as a cancer patient.
You are something special, I'll tell ya that much.
Adds fuel to my opinion that a segment of the community claims they want transparency but only when that transparency is agreeable to them. You can't have it both ways, either you want someone who is honest all the time or you want someone willing to lie to you. Choose.
Anyone that thinks I am attacking TaKe here is out of their mind. TaKe as you can see clearly responded to the feedback and the discussion. This is valuable information for anyone tournament organizer, this is the kind of info and discussion they need. I want TaKes tournament to be successful, I feel it would be more so with a different format, simple as that.
Appreciate the transparency here, as always. Interesting write up and agree with your opinions of the league format.
I used to be a fan of All-kill exclusively, but as of late, it seems that teams are following the "star + support squad" mentality that really is not conducive to high-quality matches. Would like to see a Bo5 PL format with ace for a potential season 4.
That being said, the games today were pretty entertaining, if you consider the fact that Sjaak is an up-and-coming new talent who just asserted himself into the limelight and proved he was worth the acquisition from Mouz. I think he has potential to break into WCS for sure when he comes of age.
That being said, I feel bad for the Axiom boys. I guess that the internet connection probably had some play into the games? Regardless, good games from Sjaak and Ryung today.
maybe you shoulda picked up sjaack when you had the chance, he seems like a hard working player and im sure he put a lot of preperation into preparing his "white ra special tactics" builds. I wouldn't consider him a no name anymore after these events. Give him some foreigner hope credit!
I think two rounds can be okay for playoffs, but I'd prefer to just use the Waseda format throughout (4-5 Proleague-style 1v1s followed by survivors playing until one team's winners have all been eliminated). In BW, Kespa's Dreamleague (effectively B-team/rookie Proleague) used Waseda to great effect. If Waseda isn't an option, then I think Bo7 Proleague is the best.
First of all, death to trackpads i accidentally voted for the current format. (Now it's hurting my conscience.)
I tend to support the proleague format for team leagues though. The less one person can carry, the more entertaining the tournament becomes as a team effort.
And seriously even if Tb fired off a bit of banter ahead of the game, he totally stuffed his face in humble pie in his post. More than enough to absolve him in my honest opinion
Can you really complain when someone who cares so much and is both passionate and honest, all while still having the personal insight, humility and grace to apologize in case he slighted someone. And doing so both eloquently and with phrasing and punctuation up to the snuffest of snuff. My top hat of to Tb in this case.
And to mystery while speaking of salt. Salt is good, i'ts a necessity even, but when you overdo it with potshots one will more likely get the feel that Tb at one point stole your candy than you having a reasonable complaint against any one statement or opinion. A slight bit of subtlety (read: only a pinch of salt) would help your cause. (This is me not being subtle providing an anti-reference )
Lastly i look forward to Axioms next showing to see them claw themselves back into team-league limelight!
What about the good ol' WC3L format like on Warcraft III back in time ?
A BO5 of BO3s, 4x1v1 + 1x2v2 (or 5x1v1 whatever) like:
Acer vs Millenium
INnoVation vs ForGG (BO3) Scarlett vs Dayshi (BO3) Nerchio vs VortiX (BO3) MMA vs MarineLorD (BO3) MMA & Scarlett vs Dayshi & VortiX (BO3)
This way, managers would be able to prepare tactics, which players to pick, etc. It would not rely on some randomness, luck (BO3), etc. I'd love to see this again.
Good post. Personally my favourite format for team leagues was the one used by ESL Euro series: "Teams face each other in five 1v1 best-of-three match-ups" (with the possibility for the ace player to play twice". I feel that this format is less volatile than Proleague, favours teams with reasonably deep rosters and gives an edge (but not a huge one) to the teams with star players. The cons? With a potential maximum of 15 games (minimum 6) it could take longer to play and broadcast. The solution would be to have just four best-of-three matches (maximum 12 games, minimum 6) during the regular season with the possiblity of having a draw and sharing points between teams. The only thing the ESL Euro series lacked was a good coverage, but it was exciting to watch. What do you think?
On July 10 2014 07:51 qxc wrote: I always felt like atc had the revival rule because acer had a relatively shallow lineup for a long time (with 1-2 extremely strong players) and so revives (especially the 3 revive season) helped them perform better.
The rules make a lot of sense when I consider them in this way, regardless of if I agree or not.
On July 10 2014 07:51 qxc wrote: I always felt like atc had the revival rule because acer had a relatively shallow lineup for a long time (with 1-2 extremely strong players) and so revives (especially the 3 revive season) helped them perform better.
On July 10 2014 06:58 KadaverBB wrote: To be fair, it is possible to express humor/sarcasm without using twitch memes :D
In my experience this is not true online. Kappa was probably the best thing the internet ever came up with, finally a universally accepted way of saying "the preceding sentence is not serious".
Then Teamliquid banned it, like the fascists they are...
I'd prefer to take that sentence as irony, but since I'm not sure about that regarding its first part, I'm glad to help: Here's an example where humor was expressed without using a twitch meme:
";-)" ":-D" "lol, kidding"
Also, IMO "kappa" and other twitch chat stuff is just plain stupid, but I think we can agree to disagree here?
Edit: regarding your format thoughts, I agree though. Especially the revive rule takes away a lot of tension. Regarding Take's thoughts on budget and stuff: the ATC is pretty much the one teamleague besides proleague left. If that does not continue, it'll be hard for another teamleague to establish itself as a constant thing in the scene. On the other hand, maybe teamleagues in general are not supposed to be a big thing since SC2 has always been a 1on1 heavy thing, resulting in a "player > team" mentality? "Flash carrying KT Rolster" might be a good example, it was so hard for Zest to establish himself. Also, TY.
"We lost, therefore, all-kill format sux"; whatever dude, don't write an essay to try and get people to bandwagon onto the "NO ALL-KILL" train so your team can win.
While the Proleague format might not be as exciting as the all-kill format I think it could still be beneficial for the viewer. With the current format we basically only see Innovation every time when Acer plays. With Proleague format we would see a much big part of the roster. That would, at least in my opinion, be much more interesting than just Innovation and Taeja every single game (even though I love watching them play) and we'd also get to see more of the foreigners like Scarlett, Nerchio, Snute, Bunny, Mana. I'd definitely prefer that over the current format.
I think you find it hard to make your sarcasm understood because you're always picking fights such as these, heh. ^^ It actually is genuinely hard to know if you're being ironic, because you make harsh or blunt statements all the time. Back in my day we used smilies instead of twitch memes though, might be worth a shot!
As for format, I've grown to like Proleague format more in recent times. All-kill feels dated and streaky, and doesn't showcase a team as much as Proleague format does. You get to know all the teamplayers over time, and the non-ace players get a chance to improve a lot.
Not sure if you want to elaborate on it at all, but how do you view the difference between individual and team league preparation and practice? I understand the general premise of why it's different, but it is hard to understand the specifics.
On July 10 2014 22:00 Heartland wrote: Not sure if you want to elaborate on it at all, but how do you view the difference between individual and team league preparation and practice? I understand the general premise of why it's different, but it is hard to understand the specifics.
CranK would explain better than I do, but it comes down to each player as a team getting together, talking about which maps they want to go out on and preparing a few builds/maps vs certain races each to try and cover all the possible outcomes. If there's a particularly tough player, you will have someone prepare a build or two to take him out and you'll try to predict when he's going to come out and on what map.
The ATC format makes that pretty hard unfortunately. You don't know the starting player until very close to match time (whereas with GSTL you had that information well in advance), you also have the fact that any of the players could be revived, so it's much harder to create snipe builds.
With Proleague format the preparation is more straight forward, since you know your map and you know your opponent. Clan Wars gives the same amount of lead time as Proleague does to teams, you know your maps 2 weeks before and you know your opponent 1 week before.
The biggest issue for ATC is to get funding for another season. Everything else is kinda of secondary importance.
About formats. I think both All-Kill and Proleague-format are viable options with pros and cons. Even Proleague playoffs are played in All-kill format.
Proleague: + teamleague feeling + better preparation for maps + easier scheduling since you know which player to play on which map in advance and its not uncertain when and if you have to play
+/- advantage for teams with deep rosters and many players +/- eventually more compact and a less time intensive experience but less ad revenue and monetizable content
- less top matches between high caliber players - more lesser known players vs each other --> less hype, viewers? - more preparation effort for semi and part time pros (a disadvantage for many foreigners?) - upsets not that exciting since everyone can lose a bo1 once in a while - no suprise foreigner all-kills like Welmu, Sjaak, Dayshi, Vortix, Bunny, Scarlett and Ignite this season
All-kill:
+ many top matches + many top player vs underdog matches + more possibilities for upsets + possibility for exciting, unexpected runs
+/- advantage for teams with star players
- lots of walkovers and all-kills - feels often like 1v1 or 2v2 with some minions trying to make the top players tired for the real matches - sniping top players twice very difficult because of ace revive - match length vary a lot, bad for scheduling
I dont think one format is absolutely superior to the other and you can justify both decisions, so its really up to the organization that hosts the teamleague to choose the format. I think the only questionable thing would be the ace revive combined with the all-kill format because it strengthens the weaknesses of that format.
Independent from the format ATC will never be like Proleague though. The level of play is just too diverse from world class players to semi active foreigners. Proleague rosters are twice to thrice the size which makes in-depth preparation possible to begin with. Teams that can afford a team house are able to prepare much better for matches because of short lines of communication. That would make (relatively) wealthy teams more successful like Acer, Axiom and mYi and all the other ones that cant afford it, cant keep up. Also many many foreigners arent full time like almost everyone on mouz still goes to school, many attend university or do other stuff while progaming... It's nice when a teamleague incentivizes teams to increase their roster, hire players full time and build team houses but I dont think we're at the point in time where we can expect more investment into sc2, sadly.
format i like: a bo5 overall consisting of a series of 5 bo1's. each team is given a list of 5 maps well in advance. a few days before the match, each team submits a lineup for maps 1-4 and immediately afterward they're told their opponent's lineup. then they have a few days to prepare strategies. the 5th map can be any player and is decided right before the game.
i've always seen the format that allows all-kills as sort of a gimmicky joke format that you do once in a while for a minor league. individual leagues already dominate the landscape. team leagues should be as teamy as possible (except not actually have team games like 2v2 or 3v3)
On July 11 2014 00:13 Noro wrote: Interesting write up, though I don't feel like you needed to apologize for losses. Just keep on going ^^
Responsible people own up to their mistakes. Doesn't matter if I wasn't playing, I'm the team owner, the teams failures are my failures. I'm not going to dodge responsibility.
Does everyone really hate allkill? I love it. Especially the way GSTL did it of course, but that requires offline tournaments. I love the unpredictability of allkill formats and it kind of shows the ''pure, unprepared skill'' of any player. (unless you're talking about snipers.) It's always made matches so much more exciting for me, and also the reason I love GSTL over Proleague. Proleague of european/american teams might be an interesting twist though. Overall I prefer all-kill by far. I dislike revives though. They're kind of a gimmick and aren't really adding to the strategy, because you don't go into a match ''expecting'' to lose so that you can revive that player that lost. Maybe a mixup IS the best, get the best of both worlds.
Also, TB, sucks that you get another bad experience with ATC. Hopefully all will go right next time.
Love the fact that even tho John is such a big personality and a e-sport/youtube celebrity he can be so humble. Love the apology and i think Mousesports do to. This feels really from the heart and not some BS press release shit.
GG to Axiom and hope you guys do better next time. =)
On July 11 2014 00:13 Noro wrote: Interesting write up, though I don't feel like you needed to apologize for losses. Just keep on going ^^
Responsible people own up to their mistakes. Doesn't matter if I wasn't playing, I'm the team owner, the teams failures are my failures. I'm not going to dodge responsibility.
Football club managers always take responsibility for losses (Scolari after Brazil's 1-7, for example). It's normal to do.
Actually what I would say TB is you shouldn't feel the need to answer every asshole on here spewing a bunch of meaningless hateful crap at you. I think any reasonable person can see what you have done for the scene and be grateful. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time and you've apologized for yours.
Bo9 all-kill, just without the ace revive rule. That maybe makes sense for a Bo11 or a Bo13, but when there can theoretically be as few as 5 players that show up in a Bo9 + ace revives, that just feels too small. It feels like it dilutes the main excitement of viewing an all-kill match. With shoutcraft and proleague around, I don't think I'd like to see yet another team league go with proleague format, but my opinion could be swayed by the addition of 2v2 matches, which see tragically little attention in SC2.
On July 11 2014 02:33 Thalandros wrote: Does everyone really hate allkill? I love it. Especially the way GSTL did it of course, but that requires offline tournaments. I love the unpredictability of allkill formats and it kind of shows the ''pure, unprepared skill'' of any player. (unless you're talking about snipers.) It's always made matches so much more exciting for me, and also the reason I love GSTL over Proleague. Proleague of european/american teams might be an interesting twist though. Overall I prefer all-kill by far. I dislike revives though. They're kind of a gimmick and aren't really adding to the strategy, because you don't go into a match ''expecting'' to lose so that you can revive that player that lost. Maybe a mixup IS the best, get the best of both worlds.
Also, TB, sucks that you get another bad experience with ATC. Hopefully all will go right next time.
Proleague had the same debate, since the all-kill format favors big name players and helps them build their reputation by going on big streaks while the Proleague format favors deep teams and gives exposure to lots of less known players. They ended up with their hybrid system, where the regular season is Proleague format but the playoffs are always all-kill.
I would agree that ATC might want to incorporate Proleague format for some rounds. But all-kill is definitely more exciting to see how far an individual player can go.
All-Kill format needs to be killed if you'll pardon the pun. It was obvious yesterday and it was even more obvious today, no offence to the other players on Acer but even when Scarlett took a map off Starbuck it was still a case of "Wait for Innovation to be revived so we can start the series again". As an esports viewer I don't want to sit around for 3-4 games and wait for an ace player to screw up just for the team who's ace was beaten in the first game to have a chance or sit and wait for their ace to be revived and go reverse all-kill. That is boring as hell.
On July 11 2014 09:10 showstealer1829 wrote: All-Kill format needs to be killed if you'll pardon the pun. It was obvious yesterday and it was even more obvious today, no offence to the other players on Acer but even when Scarlett took a map off Starbuck it was still a case of "Wait for Innovation to be revived so we can start the series again". As an esports viewer I don't want to sit around for 3-4 games and wait for an ace player to screw up just for the team who's ace was beaten in the first game to have a chance or sit and wait for their ace to be revived and go reverse all-kill. That is boring as hell.
Clearly it is also the most fair and so fun. Aslong as the tournament admins had the list of players who are playing you could even wait to reveal the matches as they happen which is even more fun for the viewers.
Nice of you to come out and say this kind of stuff as well mr Biscuit, shows balls. Would love Garfield to do this as the mighty EG just dont show up in Team Leagues which sucks as a fan of them.
I don't think you'll ever be able to satisfy everyone. A lot of people enjoy the all kill format, a lot enjoy Proleague's, lots enjoy both (I count myself among the latter). The Proleague format obviously favors teams with the best depth and/or preparation, but regularly gets criticized for not developing individual storylines enough as well as sometimes favoring certain teams too much. If you have a team like SKT in there and play Bo7 Proleague format, guess who's going to win every single round? It hasn't been as bad this season because of Bo5s but you know, the longer a series is the more it favors the better team.
TLO brought up a really important point on Take's stream yesterday: while sometimes it'll be frustrating to see a single player carrying a team, it's also somewhat necessary to give more teams a chance, teams that perhaps don't have the kind of roster that could compete in a Proleague format league. No doubt that TL, Acer, Axiom, maybe YFW and iG could play that kind of format, but what about the rest? As volatile as bo1s are, if you have to play potential seven of them against a stacked team like TL for example, your chances are slim unless you're one of the above or a Korean team.
As far as individual storylines go, that point should be obvious. Taeja rocketed to the top of the SC2 scene through his all killings in IPL TAC (of course he had success elsewhere, but that's where it really took off). The whole "Summer of Taeja" and "Team Taeja" memes - I hate calling it that - started when he put the team on his back and did unimaginable things. That's cool. That's the sort of storyline the community loves, that gives us writers something to latch onto and expand on to get people excited for tournaments, etc.. And I think that especially in the foreign scene, where establishing yourself as not just another player that would easily get swept aside by any decent Korean, that sort of environment is really important for players to make a name for themselves. In a perfect world we'd obviously have leagues with both formats running simultaneously for both teams and players to shine.
But as it stands at the moment, the only two big teamleagues out there are Proleague and ATC. The most important thing Proleague have realized, in my opinion, is that variety is huge. That's why they don't play "their" format every single time, but switch between it and all kill format frequently. That keeps it all fresh and allows for teams to both present their roster strength as well as individual players'.
If we now had ATC also switch to Proleague format, that would take away a lot of that variety. A lot of people would come out saying that they want an all kill format league back because of those storylines, etc. Right now I think we've got a good balance between both systems with Proleague running their format weekly (except during playoffs) and ATC's different one.
Something I really enjoyed as well was EGMC's Bo5 format consisting of five Bo3 series. It was time consuming, yes. But how cool was seeing HerO vs Stephano meet in a key match and knowing it was going to be a Bo3 instead of just one game? Pretty damn cool. It kinda combined the best of both worlds, as players could still put out a really impressive showing on more than one map but overall it was still team effort that won you the league.
Good blog. And a great look into a team's strategy.
I still like the allkill format, though. While it negatively impacts the quality of many matches, it often creates an exciting story line within the series.
Of course, revives should not be possible. It is the point of allkill to "kill" a player in this series.
On July 10 2014 20:41 ninazerg wrote: "We lost, therefore, all-kill format sux"; whatever dude, don't write an essay to try and get people to bandwagon onto the "NO ALL-KILL" train so your team can win.
On July 10 2014 09:00 tomastaz wrote: TB there's no need to apologize we still love you! Also, I really want the Axiom Cherry Brown keyboard but it's all sold out =(
Same here - with Heart on the keyboard (or Ryung). Not sure what shipping costs to the UK are but I should be going to Milpitas on business soon and they can be picked up in person. Not going back to blues since I started using a CM Storm Quick Fire with browns.
Oh, I prefer Bo7 no ace revive. It is too forgiving to teams with superstar players.
I agree with the not so subtle protoss whine in OP, it's just frustrating to play against. Getting rax-CC and then deflecting the all in spam stalker, was still contained ruining early game macro and ending up behind attacking into 3 chrono colossus that wiped the bio force of mostly marauder built up to just go kill him for failing the all in. The most irritating part has to be the failed stalker push into attempt at DT cheese and still having an economy lead to early CC into double OC play.
all-kill was a great gimmick when it was used as that - a gimmick - in the old BW proleague days, where you had teams of genuine depth of quality so that actually all-killing a team was actually an achievement, and it was only actually used in 1 round of 5 throughout the season. in the current team environment it simply doesn't work because of the imbalance in skill level in many teams, resulting in a team game being decided by whoever wins the set between the teams' respective best players. i've always prefered the old dream league format (standard best of 5, then the winners of those sets play in an all-kill format until one team is eliminated), but don't think that'd work either, again due to current team compositions.
it definitely needs shaking up, and i think the poll in TB's OP demonstrates that, if only because you get interesting starcraft when you have players of similar skill level (regardless of actual skill level) - hired korean aces curbstomping EU pros simply isn't fun
On July 14 2014 19:29 SatedSC2 wrote: I actually think that the EG Master's Cup had the best team-league format (after they removed the 2v2s) and it seems to be overlooked a lot IMHO.
The format they used was 4 x Bo3 with the players in each Bo3 being announced beforehand. Because the players are announced beforehand, the players involved can still prepare for a specific opponent and they can still prepare "snipe builds" for specific maps, which is what I think most people like about the Proleague format. However, because it's Bo3, you also reward teams for having players who are better overall, which I think strikes a good balance between team preparation (snipers, all-ins, wonky strategies) and actually being better at the game.
If you play all four Bo3s and the score is tied at 2-2 then you have a Bo3 ace-match. The players for this obviously aren't announced to the opponents beforehand, which means an element of mind-games can become involved if teams try to counter-pick who they think the opponent is going to pick. However, because it's a Bo3 and because the maps aren't decided beforehand, counter-picking is a lot weaker than it is in the Proleague format. What I think this does is reward teams for having a stand-out ace-player, and I think it also leads to ace-matches actually being contested between the two best players on the teams involved. That's what I want to see in an ace-match, the two best players going at it!
Also, because this format only requires a minimum of 4 players, it's perfect for a tournament that already relies on a revive rule to help out teams with a small number of players
EGMC format is pretty good, though it does result in some fairly lengthy broadcasts.
On July 11 2014 02:33 Thalandros wrote: Does everyone really hate allkill? I love it. Especially the way GSTL did it of course, but that requires offline tournaments. I love the unpredictability of allkill formats and it kind of shows the ''pure, unprepared skill'' of any player. (unless you're talking about snipers.) It's always made matches so much more exciting for me, and also the reason I love GSTL over Proleague. Proleague of european/american teams might be an interesting twist though. Overall I prefer all-kill by far. I dislike revives though. They're kind of a gimmick and aren't really adding to the strategy, because you don't go into a match ''expecting'' to lose so that you can revive that player that lost. Maybe a mixup IS the best, get the best of both worlds.
Also, TB, sucks that you get another bad experience with ATC. Hopefully all will go right next time.
I have no idea why but All Kill has some ring to it that feels so Starcraft to me, like its a personal achievement that few can ever boast. Taking away AK is actually probably better for the viewership because we can see an entire teams roster. However, there is just nothing quite like All Kill for that epic hero type feel.
TB honestly really, your players have to have the responsibility, you inflamed the situation but its not really like NBA Playoff or something, you can't really 'reach another gear' in SC2 just because someone trash talked you on Twitter.
Also, should a coach really have an entire YouTube empire to run and a team to run and have cancer? I think you should bring a coach to one of your capable players if you aren't using it. Don't put too much of your teams success on your shoulders let them also bear the burden.
I think the problem is that if you mimic the pro league format, there isn't much reason to watch the tournament because you could just watch pro league. Now ATC does have other things going for it; fan favourites, favourable time zones, but does this alone make it a valuable investment of viewer time? I would argue that it doesn't.
So ATC use this format because it is different, no one else is doing it, it can create exciting storylines and all this helps the numbers.
On July 18 2014 19:27 KelsierSC wrote: Hey interesting post.
I think the problem is that if you mimic the pro league format, there isn't much reason to watch the tournament because you could just watch pro league. Now ATC does have other things going for it; fan favourites, favourable time zones, but does this alone make it a valuable investment of viewer time? I would argue that it doesn't.
So ATC use this format because it is different, no one else is doing it, it can create exciting storylines and all this helps the numbers.
There's no real evidence to suggest that ATCs format "helps the numbers" in any way and I think both the poll and my reasoning that ATCs revive format results in silly, meaningless series that are decided by 2 players rather than an entire team, are both decent arguments in favour of changing it.
The idea that people would stop tuning in because the format was similar to Proleague seems like little more than speculation.
EPT
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It is genuinely my favourite emote aside from the cynicalAndmyax one. I totally get why it's gone though and I'm really glad though that TB is going to try and remake it somehow. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EdJq011.png)
