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Yeah, trust can totally only develop after the supposed captain has control of everything. It has nothing to do with communication.
/sarcasmoff
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I think Team Liquid just needs to spend a weekend at a cabin in the woods somewhere and do MDMA together.
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On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote:
But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this?
Simple, they're too busy having him draft.
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Take the horse by the balls sir, you got this.
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On March 14 2014 05:24 Jeyostyle wrote:
As someone who has played with FLUFF during the FIRE days, I could always know what FLUFF has been thinking when they're losing their games. I don't know how it goes for liquid, but I'm pretty sure there is so little conversation going on between the players during ingame / postgame. Which we had 200% on FIRE days, it was all about communication, everyone being able to voice out their own opinion for everyone to listen which I doubt is the case for Liquid, I guess that's a thing you get when you become a much more older player in the competitive scene, you start lacking motivation, (more like getting too used to being a pro player, It's a luxury a lot of players want to achieve.) not have the need to speak with other players but rather with a third-party because they're probably the only ones who are willing to listen and say that you're right. But what they need most of all and is probably the only thing they're lacking is "Trust", which will only probably work if Fluff has full control of the whole game.
why give full control to a guy like this though? it must be terrible having a guy like this a captain that complains he doesn't know much about his team mates but instead of constantly making the effort he ignores the team and vents to people outside the team, even a public blog first?
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to blindly follow a dude that is this selfish, unless he really is way above my level and leads by example. I doubt that's the case though?
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On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus.
My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something.
It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-.
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Hello FLUFF,
I don't know what your intentions are re: staying or going,
or if you even read follow-up replies to your blog.
I'd like to offer you an idea that had a significant impact on me several years ago.
Roughly,
Being a man is learning to live with people being mad at you.
Let me put this in Jay-Z's words from the Black Album, though his poetry in the last several years has more gild and glitter than substance.
I pray I'm forgiven
For every bad decision I made
Every sister I played
Cause I'm still paranoid to this day
And it's nobody's fault I made the decisions I made
This is the life I chose, or rather, the life that chose me
If you can't respect that your whole perspective is wack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
Holding regret and angst together with confidence and determination.
Very difficult.
Boldness to make decisions;
Empathy and compassion to feel accountable for the bad ones;
Courage to continue no matter;
Confidence in the imperfect and flawed self.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
When you were with FIRE you were with a group of people who, from your account, all liked each other and were good friends.
Leading groups like this is relatively easy. Of course you would have had a good time.
Now you have a challenge.
If you hold yourself accountable and lead and the team falls apart,
You were not the leader for the team and the team was not yours to lead.
Everyone moves on.
Do the right thing.
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Awesome Fluff! Hope you guys work it out and play with better friendship. I know it's hard to say this stuff to the face because you are an introvert. But yeah introverts repress their emotions until it just bursts out and comes out all unexpected to the majority who never knew what was going on in the mind of the introvert. Just happy you had the balls to say some stuff and get it off your chest.
I'll be rooting for Team Liquid. And even if you get booted ( hope not ) I'll root for you in your new team. Team Liquid beating LGD even though it wasnt even winning the tournament gave me more joy than any other game in the whole tournament. Win or lose I just hope you guys have a good time playing as a team. And I hope you all form to be a real team rather than a bunch of dudes smacked together because of individual talent.
Someones got to step up and just call the shots and the others have to follow. Yeah it will get messy with some experimentation but if you all can get past that step and remain a team ... you all will be a better one. Rather than playing polite and not voicing your feelings and disagreement of strategy, skill, performance just makes everyone feel unsatisfied. I bet most of your other team mates might even have some frustrations themselves that they don't dare share.
Hope your rant works out well for you. Peace!
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sorry but I got an egomaniac vibe from this blog=/ The whole thing felt to me like you're saying that you're a great leader and deserve more than this team gave you. Maybe you're right, kind hope you're wrong after this ;o
like the "my way or highway" things, or wanting people to have complete faith in you but not giving the same benefit to your captain, and so on. It didn't seem like you put much of an effort in after a certain period of time.
Maybe i just read it in the wrong tone or something.. While having confidence in yourself is a good thing, your attitude was off-putting to me.
I'm relatively new to the dota scene, but judging from your post, you had an awesome team that followed you but y'all ended up breaking up (i guess), Then Complexity... then you had the opportunity to lead TL and that didn't work out either... maybe you're a good leader but not as great as you think?
Also in between the lines this blog read to me as if you were calling your entire team out of being so bad/divided that they could not let you fulfill your true greatness=/ kinda threw everyone under the bus there, even if not directly
to be fair most of us do this, thinking we're much better then we actually are, we deserve more but just aren't noticed and so on. I've also done the whole "if only people can see/understand me for who I truly am as well as my whole potential" thing.... as have most tl users prolly. If you truly are gifted you have to show it, not wait for others to "discover" you. and to be brutally honest you had quite a few chances to do so
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Well they're not happy in the camp. As a newb TL would have been my default but nrrgh C9 or even Arizona iced boys won me over. Had more faith they would matter later on. Plus I kinda had my own personal positive storylines following them while I haven't had the same luck with Liquid.
Hope you guys work it out!
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Thanks for this, I can relate to most of this and I hope things can improve for you man.
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On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-.
My frustration with your whole posts is that you chime into a goddamn discussion without reading all of it and making me repeat myself.
Read back, you will notice that you misunderstood me about the disease thing (for fuck's sake I clarified that in 3 different posts are you serious?), I didn't even say that it was a negative aspect but just that it has its bad sides, which extroversion has too (and I mentioned that as well, so how about reading more than just one post of a discussion before giving your opinion next time?).
What the hell man, I also said why I connected being an introvert with being more reserved in groups here, since MANY of them have that problem and because FLUFF does and we are talking about Fluff, which makes it also senseless to mention some great introvert leaders to me since I never said that they can't be leaders, they can be great leaders, but it does make it harder, especially when it's about dota (and since we're talking about Fluff and dota that's kinda what this is about).
Seriously, what the hell man, are you trying to misunderstand me on purpose or did you seriously just read that one posted and then ignored all the other ones where all of this could have been cleared up?
Yes,
I mad.
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I can relate to a lot of what you've written, i feel a kind of kinship with you because i think we share many flaws and weakness'.
So ill just say to you what i tell myself.
Man the fuck up you pussy, to live is to struggle.
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@SilentchiLL:
(...)they can be great leaders, but it does make it harder, especially when it's (...)
I think thats where you hit a trigger. This is when you make it sound like a negative aspect. If you said "but it does make it different" there probably wouldnt be such a big discussion.
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On March 14 2014 22:20 Jelissei wrote:@SilentchiLL: Show nested quote +(...)they can be great leaders, but it does make it harder, especially when it's (...) I think thats where you hit a trigger. This is when you make it sound like a negative aspect. If you said "but it does make it different" there probably wouldnt be such a big discussion.
Of course it makes it harder to lead in some situations, but there are also advantages to it, should I really name an advantage for every disadvantage of something just so it doesn't "sound like a negative aspect"?
It's a slightly touchy subject due to the negative connotations it has in the mainstream, but if introverted people are especially common here shouldn't it be easier here to have a conversation about it here without people always thinking and going for the extremes in their posts, instead of being even more extreme and negative about it?
I mean, Staboteur actually accused me of thinking of introverted people are "lesser humans" (lol) and several people mentioned introverted leaders to disprove me as if I said that they could never be leaders.
The funny thing about this is that even though some people here basically treated me like they would treat a racist they don't know me, they don't know that I have some introverted aspects about myself (as well as extroverted ones, I'm weird I guess), and I'm perfectly fine with those. I read thick novels since I was 8, enjoy time alone and I've already been with buddies on a spanish island for constant drinking and having fun for a week but at one day I just needed peace and quiet for myself to relax, think and read while they went on a boat-trip (partied again in the evening, yay), at the same time I'm great infront of crowds, outgoing, pretty assertive and love to talk to people (and now I also sound like an egomaniac, though I really just checked the wikipedia site on extrovertism and mentioned the first 4 things that fit me).
It's as if they'd call a guy with a black mother and a white father a white supremacist.
I know I could have prevented being treated like a racist if I would have wrote that before, or if I would have said that I know several introverts and was in love with two already, but does somebody really have to say "I have a black friend, but..." before he says something that could be considered racist?
And to be honest I didn't expect such an extreme backlash, lol.
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Fluff you seem like a good guy. I have noticed though, that Chinese men with the surname "Lee" tend to be a little bit self - centered. Perhaps it's in the blood. Best of luck.
Edit: Could some one provide a Spark notes for The Clockwork Manifesto?
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On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. I, myself is both an extrovert and a introvert. Whenever I am introverted, I seek solace, do not communicate, no social interaction.
I think most of you misinterprete what SilentChill tries to say, and perhaps more regarding your own insecurities about being introverts, when going up in defence.
While you can be a great leader while being an introvert, there are just things you can not muster, that might be needed at a given time(just like in this scenario) - which is also why leaders often have right hands, carrying out tasks that are difficult for themselves, or the other just better at.
There are positives and negatives surrounding being an extrovert or introvert, and most of it depend on those you work with. Seemingly a more extroverted path might have been more helpful with these fellow players.
Just like when Loda was the one that told EternalEnvy, that he would not only not captain, but not be part of the team. Loda showed leadership in doing the tough job.
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On March 16 2014 00:59 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote:On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. I, myself is both an extrovert and a introvert. Whenever I am introverted, I seek solace, do not communicate, no social interaction. I think most of you misinterprete what SilentChill tries to say, and perhaps more regarding your own insecurities about being introverts, when going up in defence. While you can be a great leader while being an introvert, there are just things you can not muster, that might be needed at a given time(just like in this scenario) - which is also why leaders often have right hands, carrying out tasks that are difficult for themselves, or the other just better at. There are positives and negatives surrounding being an extrovert or introvert, and most of it depend on those you work with. Seemingly a more extroverted path might have been more helpful with these fellow players. Just like when Loda was the one that told EternalEnvy, that he would not only not captain, but not be part of the team. Loda showed leadership in doing the tough job.
Exactly, leroy jenkins did basically the same thing as loda.
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On March 16 2014 01:04 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 00:59 Dracolich70 wrote:On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote:On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:
[quote]
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think?
Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down.
An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided.
From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here.
Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. I, myself is both an extrovert and a introvert. Whenever I am introverted, I seek solace, do not communicate, no social interaction. I think most of you misinterprete what SilentChill tries to say, and perhaps more regarding your own insecurities about being introverts, when going up in defence. While you can be a great leader while being an introvert, there are just things you can not muster, that might be needed at a given time(just like in this scenario) - which is also why leaders often have right hands, carrying out tasks that are difficult for themselves, or the other just better at. There are positives and negatives surrounding being an extrovert or introvert, and most of it depend on those you work with. Seemingly a more extroverted path might have been more helpful with these fellow players. Just like when Loda was the one that told EternalEnvy, that he would not only not captain, but not be part of the team. Loda showed leadership in doing the tough job. Exactly, leroy jenkins did basically the same thing as loda. No, Leroy Jenkins acted on his own accord(or at least that is how they wanted to play the joke out). Loda acted in agreement with the rest(-EE).
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On March 14 2014 07:12 Ochrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote:
But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this? Simple, they're too busy having him draft.
just too close to ti4 to risk the invite
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EPT
