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On March 13 2014 23:32 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 23:25 SilentchiLL wrote:
Er...no, you posted a condescending comment with a whole "they can be happy or sad depending on how they handle it" aspect to it. Its not a mental health issue like clinical depression ffs, its introversion. Don't conflate the two.
I never wrote it's a mental health issue. I never intended it to be condescending either. I was however talking about character traits that aren't always easy to live with, just like somebody with a big ego can have problems in his life or on a personal level with others if he doesn't realize it or just doesn't care, so can introverted persons. Different characters make it easier or harder to get along with others, or to keep a good mood or to keep yourself motivated, I wasn't even judging being introverted as something negative, being extroverted brings its own problems on the table.
My point is the very fact you needed to spell that out implies you think its some sort of problem that has to be "dealt with". Which is utterly absurd. Think about it this way: is it a problem to enjoy quietly reading or...I don't know...fishing (introversion) as opposed to going out to clubs and dancing (extraversion) on a weekend?
I did so because you immediately became defensive about it and I wanted to tell you that it is in fact not something superspecial or horrible, apparently I failed though. It can be a problem, just like a lot of other character traits, however I never said it has to be dealt with, I said how somebody with an introverted personality is doing depends on how he or she handles it, e.g. if a shy person lets his shyness stop him from doing what he wants, or if a loud person who has his heart on his tongue says something stupid or offending to people without realising it. Or to edit a positive scenario into this, if an introvert finds a quiet and relaxed job that challenges him and gives him time to think. Fair enough, but your wording was somewhat questionable earlier.
Feel free to tell me how then, I always aim to make myself easier to understand and would like to avoid stuff like this in the future.
EDIT: I do think that part of the blame is on you here though 
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I'm sure on page 14 my response doesnt even matter but maybe if Fluff reads this it will be worth it...
Bro the reason youre not a strong leader is because youre too wrapped up in your own world right now. Look at the number of times you used "I" or "me" in this blog. A leader doesnt think of himself first before his team. A leader is trying to constantly understand whats going on in not only the head of his enemies, but his allies as well. So when you're thinking of picking an offlaner, you're not just thinking "oh what's a good counter to xyz" youre thinking "what does my offlaner WANT to play, what does he like to play, etc." And sometimes you have to IGNORE that desire of your teammates to play certain heroes or use certain playstyles, but that exactly your job as the leader to know when things are/arent appropriate. You mention feeling trapped, and out of control, and that stems from you not being proactive in your own life. Working hard is such a subjective thing to analyze, especially when we look at our own lives. I mean are you REALLY doing everything in your power to make TL the best team it can possibly be? Whether its uncomfortable or not? I doubt it very much. Leaders are motivators, and people that have as negative of an outlook on things as you've displayed in this blog are demotivaters. Do you really think that at the absolute highest levels of competitive dota people cant feel your energy (or lack thereof)? C'mon bro... Be real... Have some respect for the people around you and realize that you are the common denominator in all of your life's events. If shit is negative, if youre not making friends, if youre not having fun, if you feel depressed, then who is going to solve that? Team Liquid blogging? No dude no... Make some internal changes on your own time, and see how the team responds. If theyre equally as shitty after you start leading by example (practicing harder, putting more effort into team bonding/friendship, etc.) then go find a new team to play for. It's really that simple. If you put in everything youve got and its still a shit team dynamic, then move on to the next group of players that you think would be more in line with your goals.
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On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionShow nested quote +Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
It says right at the bottom of your wiki link that "Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do". Being unable to make calls in a game of dota is more an attribute of shyness rather having a dwindling mental battery. Playing a game of dota itself with other people is a social encounter itself. Introverts are not so easily overwhelmed by a couple hours of social activity with only 5 people you need to talk to. In fact, your wiki link also says that introverts "... may enjoy interactions with close friends". A group of 5 can easily fit the bill of close friends. Do not confuse inability or refusal to speak out with introversion. A lot of people don't want speak out because they don't want to be held accountable for what they say, especially in a game like dota where blame gets tossed around whenever something goes wrong. A leader will provide purpose, motivation, and direction regardless of whether the leader is an introvert or extrovert.
Fluff has said himself that currently Team Liquid does not seem to have a clear leader. I quote "How many of you readers know of teams that just have no one out there calling shots or being assertive about the team?". That statement in itself suggests that Team Liquid has no one to provide purpose, motivation, or purpose. Unless you want to suggest that all 5 in Liquid are introverts, I think its better to say that Liquid has no one stepping up to the plate rather than introverts have a harder time leading.
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THis blog is a even better read then the QQQ thread now
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Come switch to sc2 Fluff.
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On March 14 2014 00:22 BrokenBang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. It says right at the bottom of your wiki link that "Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do". Being unable to make calls in a game of dota is more an attribute of shyness rather having a dwindling mental battery. Playing a game of dota itself with other people is a social encounter itself. Introverts are not so easily overwhelmed by a couple hours of social activity with only 5 people you need to talk to. In fact, your wiki link also says that introverts "... may enjoy interactions with close friends". A group of 5 can easily fit the bill of close friends. Do not confuse inability or refusal to speak out with introversion. A lot of people don't want speak out because they don't want to be held accountable for what they say, especially in a game like dota where blame gets tossed around whenever something goes wrong. A leader will provide purpose, motivation, and direction regardless of whether the leader is an introvert or extrovert.
Read the whole discussion, Bang.
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so what's up with Liquid? Are they playing dignotoss today? Gief drama resolution please!
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we get it, you like Dota because its fun to play and without any kind of sponsorship you enjoyed the game the most and you were actually getting better because you enjoyed practising, now you just hate everything because you have to try hard not to disappoint fans and your team and stuff
MOVE ON, you guys are in the slump since TI3 ended and youre unable to freshen up and find the joy of the game again, either sit together, work things out, smoke a joint and laugh and start playing the next game with a clear mind with an only goal to claim victory after victory
or disband, harsh as that may sound, its really no shame to admit that you cant handle this sort of a pressure and if you feel like you guys as a team dont have much space to improve anymore, its perfectly legit to be brave enough to say stop
gl
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SilentchiLL is a troll, ignore him
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On March 14 2014 01:29 FFGenerations wrote:
SilentchiLL is a troll, ignore him
Seriously?
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Tentatively waiting for glorious reaction by management. Will they play vs Digniziggle today?
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He seems like a socially awkward child, I don't understand why this post was made. A guy like this can never be a leader worth following.
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On March 14 2014 01:38 Slardar wrote:
Tentatively waiting for glorious reaction by management. Will they play vs Digniziggle today?
Naz should immediately release him and they should use a stand in imo
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On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible
? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization.
I can google too
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On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:
Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting.
Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then.Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote:On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#IntroversionIntroversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8]
Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too
Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader.
And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting.
Jesus.
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On March 13 2014 22:27 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being introverted does not affect your ability to lead at all. You seem to think being introverted means being asocial, it does not. Bill gates is an introvert, Abraham Lincoln was an introvert, Mahatma Gandhi was an introvert(And many others but there's no reason to keep listing names). Clearly being an introvert does not at all prevent someone from being an effective and good leader. Introverts can be just as good at being social as an extrovert, the difference is that introverts need time on their own to regain their mental energy while extroverts can regain this energy while spending time with others, it has fuckall to do with their social skills. An extrovert can easily have the social skills of a potato. Also why the fuck would you give your condolences because someone might an introvert? That alone shows what a fucked up perspective you have about what it means to be introverted, and clearly shows that you have no actual idea about what it actually means to be introverted. Also i really hope TL sorts their things out as a team, i really used to enjoy watching their games but i can't really say the same for their most recent performance 
Your examples of introverted leaders bugs me because Gates and Ghandi led more by example and simply let other make up their minds, yes they both changed the world but it was difficult for them. For Lincoln it's pretty well known that while he was a great leader it took everything out of him to do it. His health had deteriorated significantly because of the decisions he had to make and how much he stressed over them.
I don't think it is impossible for an introvert to lead, I think the kind of leading he is talking about for dota will make it more difficult for an introvert. Every introvert I know has problems with groups of people because they second guess their decisions or don't offer their opinion when it mattered and regret it later. I'm not saying this is always a part of it but from experience it happens. Fluff doesn't come across as any different, he needs unquestional loyalty because he is going to question himself enough already, that's why he gave up the drafters chair in the first place.
The main problem with his post isn't that he is an introvert though, it is that he had a problem with the team and wouldn't talk to the team about it. Instead he sulked, secretly hoping they lose and turn to him, and it has showed in his poor play. Liquids supports have been a big problem in their games and he is half of that. I think everyone agreed they needed some kind of shock to the system and maybe this was it, but to do it this way on his employers site is pretty passive aggressive in my eyes and you lose some respect for the man.
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I used to back FLUFF but lately, this is an issue. First off, what others are saying is correct; to be a leader you have to be strong and lead by command, not make whiny posts without talking to the team first - I know this is your way to "RANT" but actions speak louder than words, and so far all we are hearing is words. If you really wanted to succeed as a leader, you would of did all the things you mentioned in this post after the TC drafting issues the first time. It's too late now, and you threw everyone under the bus besides yourself - that is not a leader.
You feel theres no friendship in the team? You have to make it happen then. Pride should not get in the way, if you feel "disrespected" all the time, thats often in your own mind and not always the case. Either way, its a very selfish outlook as a leader.
I'd be up for Nazgul releasing FLUFF and signing someone else ASAP if it doesn't hurt their TI4 chances.. if MSS would play support, that'd be great, hes a very solid player.
Also, FLUFF recently in February laughed at me when I told him to suggest to TL to pick disruptor more often because I thought he was one of the best heroes in the game.. Two weeks later, it seems the only games TL wins is when they happen to get disruptor.
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On March 14 2014 04:29 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 22:27 Unleashing wrote:On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote:
Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership.
TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being introverted does not affect your ability to lead at all. You seem to think being introverted means being asocial, it does not. Bill gates is an introvert, Abraham Lincoln was an introvert, Mahatma Gandhi was an introvert(And many others but there's no reason to keep listing names). Clearly being an introvert does not at all prevent someone from being an effective and good leader. Introverts can be just as good at being social as an extrovert, the difference is that introverts need time on their own to regain their mental energy while extroverts can regain this energy while spending time with others, it has fuckall to do with their social skills. An extrovert can easily have the social skills of a potato. Also why the fuck would you give your condolences because someone might an introvert? That alone shows what a fucked up perspective you have about what it means to be introverted, and clearly shows that you have no actual idea about what it actually means to be introverted. Also i really hope TL sorts their things out as a team, i really used to enjoy watching their games but i can't really say the same for their most recent performance Your examples of introverted leaders bugs me because Gates and Ghandi led more by example and simply let other make up their minds, yes they both changed the world but it was difficult for them. For Lincoln it's pretty well known that while he was a great leader it took everything out of him to do it. His health had deteriorated significantly because of the decisions he had to make and how much he stressed over them. I don't think it is impossible for an introvert to lead, I think the kind of leading he is talking about for dota will make it more difficult for an introvert. Every introvert I know has problems with groups of people because they second guess their decisions or don't offer their opinion when it mattered and regret it later. I'm not saying this is always a part of it but from experience it happens. Fluff doesn't come across as any different, he needs unquestional loyalty because he is going to question himself enough already, that's why he gave up the drafters chair in the first place. The main problem with his post isn't that he is an introvert though, it is that he had a problem with the team and wouldn't talk to the team about it. Instead he sulked, secretly hoping they lose and turn to him, and it has showed in his poor play. Liquids supports have been a big problem in their games and he is half of that. I think everyone agreed they needed some kind of shock to the system and maybe this was it, but to do it this way on his employers site is pretty passive aggressive in my eyes and you lose some respect for the man.
Being a leader is not limited to this canned, hollywood-esque notion of a verbose person who leads mainly by direct communication. This image was sold by modern media simply because it's a lot harder to picture a leader who leads by example (in any medium) than inciting such notion of leadership with a few eloquent speeches. Even so, being an introvert is not an excuse for having poor social or communication skills. All three people you mentioned may have been introverts, but they were able to deliver their respective messages as needed.
And changing the world is difficult for anyone, introverts and extroverts alike.
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As someone who has played with FLUFF during the FIRE days, I could always know what FLUFF has been thinking when they're losing their games. I don't know how it goes for liquid, but I'm pretty sure there is so little conversation going on between the players during ingame / postgame. Which we had 200% on FIRE days, it was all about communication, everyone being able to voice out their own opinion for everyone to listen which I doubt is the case for Liquid, I guess that's a thing you get when you become a much more older player in the competitive scene, you start lacking motivation, (more like getting too used to being a pro player, It's a luxury a lot of players want to achieve.) not have the need to speak with other players but rather with a third-party because they're probably the only ones who are willing to listen and say that you're right. But what they need most of all and is probably the only thing they're lacking is "Trust", which will only probably work if Fluff has full control of the whole game.
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Which is sad that he refuses to listen to anyone else.
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EPT
