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Going to respond to some of your comments  My answers are spoilered to avoid clutter.
On March 11 2014 20:51 VieuxSinge wrote:
Do you think bio+raven (for P.D.D.) works against this style (since bio/tank seems to not work)?
+ Show Spoiler +I think getting a pack of ravens and going to heavy BC to win slowly with PDD/HSM/Yamato is the way. I don't think bio can hold up vs fungal + free units at all.
On March 11 2014 23:04 Squat wrote:
Would it be possible to upload the replays somewhere Pig? My poor colour vision combined with the high brightness makes it rather difficult for me to see what's going on, and I'm actually quite interested in this.
+ Show Spoiler +Hi Squat I'm sorry about my weird gamma settings on my stream, I'll upload a replay from today: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4825880I was a bit slow on adding the SH - you can tell I don't really practice this much, I really enjoy exciting muta-ling ZvT  . This is just fun to mix in once in a while and laugh at it's ridiculousness.
On March 11 2014 23:08 Aveng3r wrote:
Would you rather fight a maxed Terran army with bcs or no bcs and more Vikings/ravens?
+ Show Spoiler +You can abduct + fungal viking/raven all day long. You can't out-micro yamato cannon unfortunately. I'd fight the viking-raven any day :D
Avilo claiming he knows the counter
+ Show Spoiler +On March 11 2014 23:54 avilo wrote:
There is already a counter to this i figured out, which is mass bio, + mass medivac (12+ medivacs) with avilo raven accumulation™ lategame. You end up with a pure bio army and 15+ ravens which can fight against roach+hydra without tanks or mines.
OP is right though - roach/hydra is incredibly strong, and completely underestimated vs Terran at the moment. Hydras especially were already very good pre-patch vs bio (not many knew this) but now are very good vs bio into lategame post-hydra buff.
I will say, this style is not 100% new vs Terran bio because i know of one player that was doing this months ago and apparently still is but not sure if he is 100% active or not. That guy is of course fitzyhere except he does it off of terrible 2 base economy with mass queens and no expansions.
Even so, it's still pretty powerful because tanks are utterly useless vs this style, widow mines even more useless than tanks, so the only good things to spend gas on for the Terran player are medivacs, mass marauders, and ravens. Bio-raven fails miserably vs well-used fungals. This will only work if the Zerg lets you sit un-touched for way too long.
Is it really the SH which makes you win?
+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2014 00:15 Tyrhanius wrote:
Is it really the swarm host which make you win ?
I see rather than the fungal + cloud is way more decisive vs bio/tank.
Moreover you have to consider this style is not very known, so the terran players who face you are learning to deal with you during the game ^^.
In game three, we can see you're very dependant on viper, because when you have lost one, you decide to sacrify your base and wait for more vipers to engage.
In my opinion, a good way the terran can counter you is to make something to kill viper like vikings.
Ghost can be a very good option too, as bio will crush your army if you have no energy for fungal and cloud.
And when we're on your view we can see you have very good mecanisms, very good micro and you anticipate drops very well, so i don't think it's really imba in sense you have easy win. From what i've seen, it rather a different way too play vs bio which interesting too, and i rather compliment you to play this over than Muta/baneling/zergling.
Muta/baneling vs bio is interesting, but more variety is better.
So in my opinion it's not really imba : vikings/ghost, mass drop can counter this. You're right viper-infestor is absolutely vital. At the top-level this was used heavily in early WoL but your army supply is too small to fight unless you can get really good spells off and you slowly lose all creep-spread and multi-prong + drops + the sheer size of the terran army would overwhelm your small, supply-inefficient roach-hydra-infestor-viper army. The reason I make out like this is a new thing is I've taken an old style and found a way to transition into some SH to push back those slow, spread out frontal pushes and contest Terran in the lategame. The reason I think it's imba is it's a strategy the zerg can do every game that can work against everything (on certain maps).
On March 12 2014 02:18 ymir233 wrote:
I think the line about the infestors being able to trap the bio from moving quickly past the locusts (or even worse, ONTO the locusts at a bad time) should be put in bold. The thought of trapping the mobile army with a small number of infestors (akin to Life's early 3base-2base infestor/spine/ling counters to Parting's immortal all-in) and then the rest is just cost-efficiency is really the key here (as simple/"obvious" as the thought may have been).
+ Show Spoiler +I agree, good fungals controlling the map and threatening/punishing Terran movement is integral
On March 12 2014 03:33 loft wrote:
Thanks for sharing your games. Nice infestor / viper control ~~
In the end Terran rules the sky... I think.
Looks like close games even when the Terran isn't responding the best way possible to your build. (As you say, SelecT doesn't do what you would suggest)
+ Show Spoiler +Select not doing what I would suggest actually allows him to gain a greedy 3rd base and a good advantage. Keep in mind I've barely practiced this and could have executed much better with practice.
On March 12 2014 03:55 chairmobile wrote:
Well obviously once you get sh out against bio, they have to go tank because fighting sh without aoe is like trying to arm wrestle the pacific ocean.
But if you don't stay on line/bane for a while, the first push at 9:30 or so straight up kills you, no? And if you make blings and commit to ling/bane speed (which you absolutely need against any aggressive bio player, aka any good bio player) how will you have the gas to go SH? Drops and stuff will rape you in the meantime unless you commit to a lot of static D at which point the terran can just out expand you and start making that BC/raven mix.
I understand how the composition is ridiculously good against bio once it's out. I don't understand how the hell you get/transition to the composition without dying or getting behind economically.
+ Show Spoiler +If you watch the vods you see that I am doing it how Soulkey used to in season 1 2013 WCS KR is very solid and doesn't die to ling-bane. You're 3rd is saturated much later but you force lots of bunkers and deny their 3rd base for a long time. I might not have done this in the game vs Select but if you see my response above to Squat I linked a replay of me doing the opener a lot more textbook
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On March 12 2014 11:13 Snake.69 wrote:
Since the patch, roach hydra is definetly better at surviving the mid game vs bio terran.
Tbh, i think overall terran bio is too weak, even vs zerg right now. ( and im zerg, and before widowmine nerfed i cried imba at bio mine alot). Even a super strong ling bane muta completly crush any form of bio if both players play around the same quality of game ( no1 plays perfect).
It seems to be a problem of synergy between marines, marauders, and siege tanks. The problem is: Fights including Marines and marauders vs their counter responses are usually way too fast for siege tanks to get enough shots in. In bw, fights were slower so siege tanks got more shots off, and also did alot more dmg.
It seems to me like if you get enough siege tanks to be worthwhile; and also have enough medivac to heal stimmed marines and marauders, your army gets really really small...
Cant reduce siege tanks supply cost for the obvious mech turtle tvz and tvt, but maybe...
Medivacs 1 supply??? It would help tvp and tvz bio.. and would def not break the game i dont think....
Maybe the first 3-3 vs 2-2 of zerg high supply battle would be too strong.. but then maybe if you make medivac 1 supply, you make 3-3 available after infestation pit, not hive.
A unit that cant attack or dmg anything or has any usable cast ability probably shouldnt be 2 supply? If too strong at 1 supply tweak them so they are not.
O_O As a zerg player my opinion on medivacs is that they are terrans strongest unit.
My main reason to get mutas is to kill the medivacs because they are generally the core of the terran army.
Medivacs 2 supply is the most well spent supply in the game in my opinion, of course besides MSC and queens =P
It doesn't really matter is its a "castable" ability or not medivacs are still extremely much paying for themselves, if thats your arguement I propose we make healing a castable ability of the medivac instead. xD Imagine the micro 
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lol bc with yamato as counter...as if theres enough resource for that when u have to deal with locusts that slowly eat away units and buildings. and the massive bank zerg have means they can just replace any lost unit almost instantly.
i dont think pig knows how difficult it is for terran to deal with that kind of swarmhost/infestor/viper/corruptor composition, its essentially the hots version of broodlord infestor with vipers. the vipers/infestors are the key in this composition that allows u to snatch tanks/vikings/raven as easy free kills with bio gets raped by fungal. trading energy and free units (zerg) for resource (terran), terran have to do something or they will flat out die.
ghosts? lol 200/100 going to waste if the zerg have just an ounce of micro and awareness before the snipe/emp land.
plus u need 4snipe for vipers
even if they killed some vipers/infestors they are not going to get past the wall of locusts anytime soon while the gas bank is tapped into for replenishments. zerg have to make a very big blunder to lose this.
imo the best way is to hit a 2/2 timing with bio/tank after holding against the roach/hydra timing and just when zerg is trying to get swarmhost. ala soul train. when zerg get their setup going, good luck to that terran.
personally i would like this zvt style more used in gsl/premier tourneys and let the whining intensifies hue.
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Man I've felt for a while that SH were viable against Terran bio players. What do you think about just going ling/bling/SH? You can use the ling/bling for mobile drop defense (I mean come on, lings have like 6.1 speed) and use the SH to blunt bio pushes/set off mines to allow banes to be more cost efficient. Then of course you can still tech to vipers to help deal with the growing tank count.
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Cant wait to see you kick Korean terran ass in code S whit you "imba" style...
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On March 12 2014 19:45 Probemicro wrote:
lol bc with yamato as counter...as if theres enough resource for that when u have to deal with locusts that slowly eat away units and buildings. and the massive bank zerg have means they can just replace any lost unit almost instantly.
i dont think pig knows how difficult it is for terran to deal with that kind of swarmhost/infestor/viper/corruptor composition, its essentially the hots version of broodlord infestor with vipers. the vipers/infestors are the key in this composition that allows u to snatch tanks/vikings/raven as easy free kills with bio gets raped by fungal. trading energy and free units (zerg) for resource (terran), terran have to do something or they will flat out die.
ghosts? lol 200/100 going to waste if the zerg have just an ounce of micro and awareness before the snipe/emp land.
plus u need 4snipe for vipers
even if they killed some vipers/infestors they are not going to get past the wall of locusts anytime soon while the gas bank is tapped into for replenishments. zerg have to make a very big blunder to lose this.
imo the best way is to hit a 2/2 timing with bio/tank after holding against the roach/hydra timing and just when zerg is trying to get swarmhost. ala soul train. when zerg get their setup going, good luck to that terran.
personally i would like this zvt style more used in gsl/premier tourneys and let the whining intensifies hue.
Oh I realise how hard it is to get BC-Raven, I think the zerg has royally fucked up if they let it happen. I was responding to a question re: composition. But I agree with you that killing/limiting/damaging the zerg earlier on is a better plan. However the 2-2 bio-tank timing people have spoken of, really does revolve around the zerg doing a failed 2-2 roach-hydra timing first. Otherwise I do believe there is no timing before viper-festor is out. Of course if Terran can find a safe way to secure a fast 3rd vs the initial 1-1 roach pressure than they might be able to make it happen with that early econ boost.
On March 13 2014 00:49 Survivor61316 wrote:
Man I've felt for a while that SH were viable against Terran bio players. What do you think about just going ling/bling/SH? You can use the ling/bling for mobile drop defense (I mean come on, lings have like 6.1 speed) and use the SH to blunt bio pushes/set off mines to allow banes to be more cost efficient. Then of course you can still tech to vipers to help deal with the growing tank count.
Catz mentioned to me he did this style into ultras, using a few SH spread around his bases actually as drop-defence as well as supporting the frontal army. +a squad of queens reacting to drops. Sounded really cool and definitely viable.
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Thanks for the replay, I'll check it out. If you want to upload more, I'll watch them as well.
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your french is legit. keep it up pig
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Is there nothing you can't do PiG. Show up at SCS events, crush Terrans, speak French. I'm jelly. Poor Dayshi, he went from having a capable army to nothing in the space of 3 spells.
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You motivated me to try this strat! Are you going to post a replay pack anytime soon? I would love to see your builds vs Terran.
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PIG! first of all:
I love you and you need to stream more.
2nd:
I have been watching alot of hyun recently (him doing roach hydra 1 1 timings into 2 2 timings)
However. I played him the other day on eu (zvz) and he went for speed roach +1 style(one evo) His push with one evo about 45 seconds faster then 2 evo push. and because of the faster push, he was able to fully saturated his third base a bit faster.
Does the +1 style work vs terran? I have tried it a few times on ladder and it seems effective, But I am not playing kids as good as you?
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>.<... I was just looking around on TL... and bumped to this thread...
I played 4 games on a row yesterday against the build you have described... (master EU)
Its like a ticking clock for the terran...
My solution is build a PF + SCV repair for the SH... poke with banshees/Nukes against the SH and lure the zerg-army...
and drop at 4 bases (each 2 meds with marines) at the same time. keep repeating this...
Its a multitasking battle...
the result was... a big army of the zerg... with no tech and a few drones with hatcheries... against a crippled terran with marines & meds...
then I build like a 10 pfs to capture every expo and strategical points on the map... and slowly chips the zerg army away...
The best way to deal with this deadly strategy is guerrilla warfare... This is similar to the Protoss DeathBall...
In a straight up fight against SH+Hydra+Viper, you will lose as terran.... (unless you have a billions bcs and ravens...). Minerals dump army vs a gas heavy army... A ticking bomb...
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i wanted to note you caused a diamond zerg on NA to go SH on yeonsu, die to my 3 base 2/2 timing while trying to be aggressive, then claim i was lucky since "this build is unbeatable", messaging me walls of text afterward. no infestors, no vipers, no hive. didn't even have 2/2 done. he directed me to this post. the post was much better than what he did. LOL.
i was wondering why no one has suggested pure bio with lots of medivacs AND GHOSTS. if you snipe/emp infestors and vipers dont you at least stand a chance?
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On March 14 2014 02:33 IMBACoaching wrote:
You motivated me to try this strat! Are you going to post a replay pack anytime soon? I would love to see your builds vs Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +In the near future I'm organising getting subscriber-access for my stream, at which point I'll be releasing a monthly replay pack, but that's still a little while away for the moment sorry!
On March 14 2014 03:27 BuiBui wrote:
PIG! first of all:
I love you and you need to stream more.
2nd:
I have been watching alot of hyun recently (him doing roach hydra 1 1 timings into 2 2 timings)
However. I played him the other day on eu (zvz) and he went for speed roach +1 style(one evo) His push with one evo about 45 seconds faster then 2 evo push. and because of the faster push, he was able to fully saturated his third base a bit faster.
Does the +1 style work vs terran? I have tried it a few times on ladder and it seems effective, But I am not playing kids as good as you?
+ Show Spoiler +Thanks! I'm trying to stream All weekdays, or Sunday-thursday evenings in the US. Unfortunately this week my net has screwed up really limiting my ability to hit my schedule  . I'll be back at it ASAP! Doing a +1 roach pressure is great in roach wars as attack is a much more important upgrade, I really like that style, similar to the "snute build" (see game 1 of snute vs hyun in seatstorycup finals). However in ZvT I feel that whilst it's completely legitimate, I prefer the 1-1. The carapace has a huge impact on the damage of marines, scvs and helions AND it goes into the 2-2 roach-hydra really nicely. But either could work
On March 14 2014 06:23 ILOVEWAR wrote:
>.<... I was just looking around on TL... and bumped to this thread...
I played 4 games on a row yesterday against the build you have described... (master EU)
Its like a ticking clock for the terran...
My solution is build a PF + SCV repair for the SH... poke with banshees/Nukes against the SH and lure the zerg-army...
and drop at 4 bases (each 2 meds with marines) at the same time. keep repeating this...
Its a multitasking battle...
the result was... a big army of the zerg... with no tech and a few drones with hatcheries... against a crippled terran with marines & meds...
then I build like a 10 pfs to capture every expo and strategical points on the map... and slowly chips the zerg army away...
The best way to deal with this deadly strategy is guerrilla warfare... This is similar to the Protoss DeathBall...
In a straight up fight against SH+Hydra+Viper, you will lose as terran.... (unless you have a billions bcs and ravens...). Minerals dump army vs a gas heavy army... A ticking bomb...
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah I agree, it's a huge multitasking battle and on the zerg side it all comes down to their ability to split up and defend + shut down those drops + multiprong. Good fungal + abducts to stop drops escaping is key! Sounds like you played a sick game though and managed to crack it, grats!
On March 14 2014 06:36 nath wrote:
i wanted to note you caused a diamond zerg on NA to go SH on yeonsu, die to my 3 base 2/2 timing while trying to be aggressive, then claim i was lucky since "this build is unbeatable", messaging me walls of text afterward. no infestors, no vipers, no hive. didn't even have 2/2 done. he directed me to this post. the post was much better than what he did. LOL.
i was wondering why no one has suggested pure bio with lots of medivacs AND GHOSTS. if you snipe/emp infestors and vipers dont you at least stand a chance?
+ Show Spoiler +Haha! That's hilarious! Glad to see I've inspired some people, even if the crazy ones . I think ghosts if they can land the EMPS/snipes on the infestors/vipers could be devastating, but getting past the locusts and individually micro'd defensive fungals is very hard, as fungal with it's AOE has a very fast cast-range. I'd love to see how the micro-battle plays out though!
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On March 11 2014 18:55 PiGStarcraft wrote:
One of the key reasons you can tech so high is the way roach-hydra can absolutely crush an aggressive bio player. It forces bio-players to defend, and there's no way for them to confirm if you're going to all-in at 2-2, or just stop at 160 supply and add SH-infestor-Hive.
I have a dumb question, what if the Terran just scans for Hive?
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United States4883 Posts
On March 14 2014 10:12 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 18:55 PiGStarcraft wrote:
One of the key reasons you can tech so high is the way roach-hydra can absolutely crush an aggressive bio player. It forces bio-players to defend, and there's no way for them to confirm if you're going to all-in at 2-2, or just stop at 160 supply and add SH-infestor-Hive.
I have a dumb question, what if the Terran just scans for Hive?
You get TWO LAIRS, NINA. MIND GAMEZ
EDIT: Sorry, that was super low content. I imagine in a situation like that, the Terran might be able to scan but it's a little too late to react properly since they probably already invested a lot of resources into defense.
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On March 12 2014 16:01 PiGStarcraft wrote:Going to respond to some of your comments My answers are spoilered to avoid clutter. Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 20:51 VieuxSinge wrote:
Do you think bio+raven (for P.D.D.) works against this style (since bio/tank seems to not work)? Avilo claiming he knows the counter+ Show Spoiler +On March 11 2014 23:54 avilo wrote:
There is already a counter to this i figured out, which is mass bio, + mass medivac (12+ medivacs) with avilo raven accumulation™ lategame. You end up with a pure bio army and 15+ ravens which can fight against roach+hydra without tanks or mines.
OP is right though - roach/hydra is incredibly strong, and completely underestimated vs Terran at the moment. Hydras especially were already very good pre-patch vs bio (not many knew this) but now are very good vs bio into lategame post-hydra buff.
I will say, this style is not 100% new vs Terran bio because i know of one player that was doing this months ago and apparently still is but not sure if he is 100% active or not. That guy is of course fitzyhere except he does it off of terrible 2 base economy with mass queens and no expansions.
Even so, it's still pretty powerful because tanks are utterly useless vs this style, widow mines even more useless than tanks, so the only good things to spend gas on for the Terran player are medivacs, mass marauders, and ravens. Bio-raven fails miserably vs well-used fungals. This will only work if the Zerg lets you sit un-touched for way too long.
And that would be incorrect. Bio+raven is the counter (one of many), and it's a very good one considering you don't need tanks/mines which were useless vs roach hydra viper to begin with.
I can claim the exact same counter argument "roach-hydra fails miserably vs well-used PDD/seeker, your strat will only work if the Terran let's you sit un-touched for way too long."
Which means, my first post is indeed accurate, and is an objectively a very viable counter because it depends upon both players control and macro. Just like seeker depends on the micro, fungal works the same way.
Every strategy has a counter or a good response in SC2, claiming otherwise is foolish.
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I get so sick of people calling stuff 'free units'. Nothing is free in sc2 except your starting 6 workers and main base. If you choose to go orbital, it costs you minerals and forfeits the option for a planetary. If you make investors, swarm hosts, broods, you have to pay for those units. They can become highly cost efficient, sure, but never free. Going that composition is highly gas expensive, if you lost all your swarm hosts you wouldn't say 'Oh well it's free I'll just grab some more for nothing'.
On topic, swarm host vs bio is pretty fun. My friend plays unconventionally as Z and I'm pretty unconventional as T as well, so we have had some funky games like this (admittedly only at diamond/low master level). My answer was to mix in ghosts and Vikings to control the viper/infestor issues and then medivac dump on his swarmhosts between rounds of locusts.
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Also big fan of yours PiG and moonglade Aussies rep mate
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EPT
