EPTSwarm-hosts are imba vs Bio - Page 2
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
OP is right though - roach/hydra is incredibly strong, and completely underestimated vs Terran at the moment. Hydras especially were already very good pre-patch vs bio (not many knew this) but now are very good vs bio into lategame post-hydra buff. I will say, this style is not 100% new vs Terran bio because i know of one player that was doing this months ago and apparently still is but not sure if he is 100% active or not. That guy is of course fitzyhere except he does it off of terrible 2 base economy with mass queens and no expansions. Even so, it's still pretty powerful because tanks are utterly useless vs this style, widow mines even more useless than tanks, so the only good things to spend gas on for the Terran player are medivacs, mass marauders, and ravens. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
I see rather than the fungal + cloud is way more decisive vs bio/tank. Moreover you have to consider this style is not very known, so the terran players who face you are learning to deal with you during the game ^^. In game three, we can see you're very dependant on viper, because when you have lost one, you decide to sacrify your base and wait for more vipers to engage. In my opinion, a good way the terran can counter you is to make something to kill viper like vikings. Ghost can be a very good option too, as bio will crush your army if you have no energy for fungal and cloud. And when we're on your view we can see you have very good mecanisms, very good micro and you anticipate drops very well, so i don't think it's really imba in sense you have easy win. From what i've seen, it rather a different way too play vs bio which interesting too, and i rather compliment you to play this over than Muta/baneling/zergling. Muta/baneling vs bio is interesting, but more variety is better. So in my opinion it's not really imba : vikings/ghost, mass drop can counter this. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
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ymir233
United States8275 Posts
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Prepatch my counter to roach hydra was to try and soak up the first few attacks with bunkers and micro and then add a ton of tech lab rax for many marauders. Mass marauder medivac (with marines of course, since I've already made 4 reactors and I'll be buggered if I'm lifting those off) beats most zerg ground compositions and unlike using tanks I could still attack once vipers are out (vipers still fuck with a good concave, they'er not nothing but at least I can play around it unlike with Siege tanks). It often wouldn't win by much but it worked pretty alright and I was happy with that. With the hydra buff, I'm not so sure I can do that anymore and might have to make tanks. I do not like making tanks vs Zerg. Or protoss. Blizzard put in a lot of ways to make a terran look really fucking stupid for attacking with siege tanks (thanks guys!) | ||
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loft
United States344 Posts
In the end Terran rules the sky... I think. Looks like close games even when the Terran isn't responding the best way possible to your build. (As you say, SelecT doesn't do what you would suggest) | ||
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chairmobile
United States111 Posts
But if you don't stay on line/bane for a while, the first push at 9:30 or so straight up kills you, no? And if you make blings and commit to ling/bane speed (which you absolutely need against any aggressive bio player, aka any good bio player) how will you have the gas to go SH? Drops and stuff will rape you in the meantime unless you commit to a lot of static D at which point the terran can just out expand you and start making that BC/raven mix. I understand how the composition is ridiculously good against bio once it's out. I don't understand how the hell you get/transition to the composition without dying or getting behind economically. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
Nice games and blog! | ||
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Spiders
United States86 Posts
On March 11 2014 23:29 TBone- wrote: Just watched that game vs Select, my god I had no idea zerg could perform so well against mmm in the mid game with roach hydra. But the infestors and swarm hosts behind the locusts appear to be what was giving select the biggest troubles. And it feels like us terrans have been refusing to identify the ghost as a unit in this matchup. I feel like this needs to be explored. Nukes from flanks could work occasionally, but emps and snipes(?) against the infestors and vipers need to be tried. Infestors are 2 shotted by snipes and I think you need 3 for vipers. It takes 4 snipes to kill a viper and you have to hit the PERFECT emp to emp a viper without getting abducted (assuming they have vision of you). Ghosts are okay vs infestors but they are trash at dealing with vipers | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
And he go crushed so badly by every Terran. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On March 11 2014 21:42 TaShadan wrote: More free units for every faction will be awesome! DK DO IT! What? Are you crazy?! Or just bad with design? Clearly, Zerg needs more free units. We've started with Hive tech free units, and now we have Lair tech free units. CLEARLY, the next correct step is to give Zerg free units at hatch tech. At the same time, we will also give Terran more cost efficient bullshit that will be nerfed (or removed) within a few months of release, after the unit has been figured out to the point where players can easily defend against them. And we will also give Protoss more weird and broke air units that deny the viability of the most economic openers, shut down the idea of going into certain late game tech paths, and give frustratingly powerful mid-game attacks. Oh, and we gotta give Mutas more random and totally unnecessary buffs to promote their use over a unit that was blatantly overpowered in the previous version of the game but got nerfed, just to promote the use of Mutas. This time, I'm thinking we'll make them faster than Stimmed Speedlings on creep, +2 range, and +40 health. Mutas are expensive, and they're not making a big impact in the game, so this seems to be a good chance while I'm wearing my Blizzard Design Team glasses. Oh, Ravens aren't coming out quickly enough, so we're buffing their movespeed and cutting the gas cost by 50. But they no longer have HSM, because otherwise they'd be broken. Contrary to popular belief, Tanks are too supply efficient, so we're raising the supply cost to 4 (sucks for you Flash), but we're decreasing the time required to siege to 2 seconds to compensate. Thors are in a good place against air now, except when trying to chase them, so we're giving them a ground version of Ignite Afterburners that allows it to both fly and move much faster. Hopefully, this also promotes proxy Thors in tournament play, cause they're not used enough. And if you thought Stalkers were trash before, we agree, so we gave Immortals the ability to shoot up AND Blink. Blink will be unlocked by researching it at the Twilight Council (the exact same one that was used for Stalkers, so now you can do Stalker+Immortal Blink timings!). We also thought that, like Siege Mode, Zealot Charge should come prepackaged into the Zealot unit, so we're removing charge and having it available from the start. The same with Warp Gate. I mean, why waste the 50 minerals and gas. The cost is so low, and we all know you're going to get it eventually, and proxy 2 Gate was just too committed of an attack that if you lost the Pylon, you lost the 2 Gates, so we're making Warp Gates available from the start. Oh, and Void Rays are too strong, so we're nerfing their speed to 2, and their range to 5. And we're still not touching the Corruptor, because we think it's a fantastic, fun, interesting, and well-designed unit. You heard it here first guys! All the critical changes that will be made in the LotV expansion! On a serious note, Mutas are annoying as fuck to deal with. Now Swarmhosts are viable against Bio too? Come the fuck on. Well, hopefully, in LotV they'll remove the concept of free units and do a bunch of neat things that lead to good gameplay, and over the course of 3-4 years after its release, the game will be balanced with tons of cool and viable strategy (or at least 3 per race per matchup; hell even 2 is nice). But I won't hold my breath, and I'll just keep playing, praying, raging, and crying. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On March 12 2014 05:27 RyLai wrote: What? Are you crazy?! Or just bad with design? Clearly, Zerg needs more free units. We've started with Hive tech free units, and now we have Lair tech free units. CLEARLY, the next correct step is to give Zerg free units at hatch tech. At the same time, we will also give Terran more cost efficient bullshit that will be nerfed (or removed) within a few months of release, after the unit has been figured out to the point where players can easily defend against them. And we will also give Protoss more weird and broke air units that deny the viability of the most economic openers, shut down the idea of going into certain late game tech paths, and give frustratingly powerful mid-game attacks. Oh, and we gotta give Mutas more random and totally unnecessary buffs to promote their use over a unit that was blatantly overpowered in the previous version of the game but got nerfed, just to promote the use of Mutas. This time, I'm thinking we'll make them faster than Stimmed Speedlings on creep, +2 range, and +40 health. Mutas are expensive, and they're not making a big impact in the game, so this seems to be a good chance while I'm wearing my Blizzard Design Team glasses. Oh, Ravens aren't coming out quickly enough, so we're buffing their movespeed and cutting the gas cost by 50. But they no longer have HSM, because otherwise they'd be broken. Contrary to popular belief, Tanks are too supply efficient, so we're raising the supply cost to 4 (sucks for you Flash), but we're decreasing the time required to siege to 2 seconds to compensate. Thors are in a good place against air now, except when trying to chase them, so we're giving them a ground version of Ignite Afterburners that allows it to both fly and move much faster. Hopefully, this also promotes proxy Thors in tournament play, cause they're not used enough. And if you thought Stalkers were trash before, we agree, so we gave Immortals the ability to shoot up AND Blink. Blink will be unlocked by researching it at the Twilight Council (the exact same one that was used for Stalkers, so now you can do Stalker+Immortal Blink timings!). We also thought that, like Siege Mode, Zealot Charge should come prepackaged into the Zealot unit, so we're removing charge and having it available from the start. The same with Warp Gate. I mean, why waste the 50 minerals and gas. The cost is so low, and we all know you're going to get it eventually, and proxy 2 Gate was just too committed of an attack that if you lost the Pylon, you lost the 2 Gates, so we're making Warp Gates available from the start. Oh, and Void Rays are too strong, so we're nerfing their speed to 2, and their range to 5. And we're still not touching the Corruptor, because we think it's a fantastic, fun, interesting, and well-designed unit. You heard it here first guys! All the critical changes that will be made in the LotV expansion! On a serious note, Mutas are annoying as fuck to deal with. Now Swarmhosts are viable against Bio too? Come the fuck on. Well, hopefully, in LotV they'll remove the concept of free units and do a bunch of neat things that lead to good gameplay, and over the course of 3-4 years after its release, the game will be balanced with tons of cool and viable strategy (or at least 3 per race per matchup; hell even 2 is nice). But I won't hold my breath, and I'll just keep playing, praying, raging, and crying. More styles being viable is a good thing. Rest of what you wrote hurt my head, not going to comment, just going to lay in a corner and try to recuperate. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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sns3rsam
United States138 Posts
On March 11 2014 19:42 Kinky wrote: This seems like the good old days of brood lord/infestor except the free unit producer changed  lol don't forget vipers :D | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Now if my army control was half that good i would try that style! | ||
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1015Fan
United States86 Posts
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
Tbh, i think overall terran bio is too weak, even vs zerg right now. ( and im zerg, and before widowmine nerfed i cried imba at bio mine alot). Even a super strong ling bane muta completly crush any form of bio if both players play around the same quality of game ( no1 plays perfect). It seems to be a problem of synergy between marines, marauders, and siege tanks. The problem is: Fights including Marines and marauders vs their counter responses are usually way too fast for siege tanks to get enough shots in. In bw, fights were slower so siege tanks got more shots off, and also did alot more dmg. It seems to me like if you get enough siege tanks to be worthwhile; and also have enough medivac to heal stimmed marines and marauders, your army gets really really small... Cant reduce siege tanks supply cost for the obvious mech turtle tvz and tvt, but maybe... Medivacs 1 supply??? It would help tvp and tvz bio.. and would def not break the game i dont think.... Maybe the first 3-3 vs 2-2 of zerg high supply battle would be too strong.. but then maybe if you make medivac 1 supply, you make 3-3 available after infestation pit, not hive. A unit that cant attack or dmg anything or has any usable cast ability probably shouldnt be 2 supply? If too strong at 1 supply tweak them so they are not. | ||
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