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On January 09 2014 13:27 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 12:04 MagnuMizer wrote:
So I read your blog...
And I have to say its perfectly understandable the feelings you have... I mean, who would'nt be frustrated with a game they've been fighting a losing battle with since its release?
I don't want this taken the wrong way, cause Ret, I think you're cool..! But, maybe it's time to throw in the towel... Lets face it, you've lost your passion and your motivation to truly be top tier.
If you love watching proleague and such, why don't you just give yourself some time to do that? Do what you love instead of trying to force yourself into some dreamworld of yours... You can still stream and make content and do whatever you want within e-sports..
I've always been a fan of you even though you've never really delivered.. But i'm more a fan of Liquid and i think its a shame to see so many other (korean) pros retire before you and yet you remain. I'm not sure its fair to the team, cause you're basically an investment that never paid off.
I mean, I get it.. getting paid to play video games is awesome!! Who would ever want to go back to the "real world"? But sooner or later you're gonna have to wake up... Less people are interested in Starcraft, the money is going away, teams are disbanding, players retiring.. Sooner or later the prize pools will be a joke, the viewer counts on the streams will be slim to none and your team will no longer be able to afford paying you a salary.. And until thay day comes, Liquid is gonna need all the money they can get to stay in the scene, and honestly it would be a real shame if you kept them from doing that..!
Consider your options, go all in or don't do it at all... You can't half-ass this shit any longer...
I wish you the best for 2014 onwards...... Wow, you have no idea how TeamLiquid works do you... I've always been a fan of TL posters even though some of them, like you, have never really delivered... but I'm more a fan of the forums and I think its a shame to see so many other (good) posters stop posting before you, and yet you remain. I'm not sure its fair to the community, cause you're basically a poster that never really developed. I mean, I get it.. feeling like you're cool to talk shit about progames is awesome!! Who would ever want to go back to "good posts"? But sooner or later you're gonna have to wake up... Less people are interested in what you have to say, this isn't reddit, a higher quality and less rude of post are required.. Sooner or later the admins will get sick of you.. And until that day comes, TL is gonna need their server load they can to stay with good posts, and honestly it would be a real shame if you kept them from doing that..! Consider your options, go all in or don't do it at all... You can't half-ass these shit posts any longer... I wish you the best for 2014 onwards......
I know we are on the TL forum, but please, keep your rear end kissing level lower please, you wont get a medal. In some way i agree with Magnu, you either set a goal like for a year, to win something or just let it go and move on. Take a look at Synderen from DOTA2, did exactly the same.
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Interesting post, Ret. It's good to see that you are reasonably optimistic about SC2 for 2014. I am a little skeptical about your call for Blizzard, if I have read your post right, to take on board more feedback from the community. "The community", to me, tends to be a rather over-used word usually used by people substituting their opinion on the game for that of everybody else. It's a bit like arguments based on what the speaker takes to be the will or the voice of "the people". It's usually horseshit.
Blizzard is better off ignoring most feedback from "the community". We have little of real substance to add, and no patience to really develop SC2, obsessed as we are with our own ladder games, the OP of the week, and monthly balance statistics from aligulac.
I'd also prefer if they did not communicate as to what they think is cool or not with the game, That is for players to do and show. It is this kind of thinking, Blizzard substituting a personal vision for the game over everyone else's, that lead to the recent Oracle buff and may lead to the upcoming Roach buff. Players reveal the game in all of its shades. This takes time. It's best if Blizzard stays out of this process. If there really is a genuine problem, it will reveal itself by its persistence, In which case, Blizzard may have to intervene. But, I'd rather they mess up once by taking too long than mess up often by jumping in too quickly. So, basically, I disagree with most of what you say.
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It's good to hope but people have become really jaded about balance and it shows on these forums as well. Blizzard says they are in touch with the community but still don't correct their shitty actions like adding their own maps into the ladder mappool. It took forever to nerf the infestor even though the whole fucking community cried about it. Add silly and skilless aspects to the game (the mothership core) that pigeonhole the metagame even further.
Good post but I'm still really skeptical about Blizzard making this game work. Three and a half years and there's still tons to improve upon.
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Very nice post Ret, I see your point and really appreciate your attitude. I wonder what we as a community can do for this game, but just to have the right mentality and do not rage or blame stupidly will help I think.
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Easier said than done, but good luck yo.
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Australia1191 Posts
You want a GhostCrawler (WoW) for StarCraft from Blizzard, i get it i'd like it to...
+ Show Spoiler +Incase you dunno who GhostCrawler is, he was the Lead System Designer of wow until recently, who was very involved with the wow forum and twitter, he would answer question and explain their motives behind WoW design, especially in moments of class changes...
Problem is, that person also garners a lot of hate from the community and becomes a beacon of hate, even when they do good, David Kim is kinda that guy already, so why would he want to bring more angry attention to himself, not everyone is going to be happy with all changes ever and negative opinions are louder than positive ones.
I too would love to see a StaCraft team member step up to the plate and be what GhostCrawler was for WoW, but now that he's gone from WoW, i doubt they'll even get a guy like that for themselves again... Blizzard has been and still is a very stoic company... they dont like to talk until they're ready... it sucks... even Kim Phan with WCS isn't similar to how GhostCrawler was for wow, she is very PR heavy... atleast thats the vibe i get...
But i hope we can get someone like that, I could've seen Dustin Browder being that guy, but he's now both a Sc2 and Heroes dev, i doubt he has the time, let alone the will to read threw thousands of tweets and forum pages...
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On January 09 2014 17:17 vidium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 13:27 aike wrote:On January 09 2014 12:04 MagnuMizer wrote:
So I read your blog...
And I have to say its perfectly understandable the feelings you have... I mean, who would'nt be frustrated with a game they've been fighting a losing battle with since its release?
I don't want this taken the wrong way, cause Ret, I think you're cool..! But, maybe it's time to throw in the towel... Lets face it, you've lost your passion and your motivation to truly be top tier.
If you love watching proleague and such, why don't you just give yourself some time to do that? Do what you love instead of trying to force yourself into some dreamworld of yours... You can still stream and make content and do whatever you want within e-sports..
I've always been a fan of you even though you've never really delivered.. But i'm more a fan of Liquid and i think its a shame to see so many other (korean) pros retire before you and yet you remain. I'm not sure its fair to the team, cause you're basically an investment that never paid off.
I mean, I get it.. getting paid to play video games is awesome!! Who would ever want to go back to the "real world"? But sooner or later you're gonna have to wake up... Less people are interested in Starcraft, the money is going away, teams are disbanding, players retiring.. Sooner or later the prize pools will be a joke, the viewer counts on the streams will be slim to none and your team will no longer be able to afford paying you a salary.. And until thay day comes, Liquid is gonna need all the money they can get to stay in the scene, and honestly it would be a real shame if you kept them from doing that..!
Consider your options, go all in or don't do it at all... You can't half-ass this shit any longer...
I wish you the best for 2014 onwards...... Wow, you have no idea how TeamLiquid works do you... I've always been a fan of TL posters even though some of them, like you, have never really delivered... but I'm more a fan of the forums and I think its a shame to see so many other (good) posters stop posting before you, and yet you remain. I'm not sure its fair to the community, cause you're basically a poster that never really developed. I mean, I get it.. feeling like you're cool to talk shit about progames is awesome!! Who would ever want to go back to "good posts"? But sooner or later you're gonna have to wake up... Less people are interested in what you have to say, this isn't reddit, a higher quality and less rude of post are required.. Sooner or later the admins will get sick of you.. And until that day comes, TL is gonna need their server load they can to stay with good posts, and honestly it would be a real shame if you kept them from doing that..! Consider your options, go all in or don't do it at all... You can't half-ass these shit posts any longer... I wish you the best for 2014 onwards...... I know we are on the TL forum, but please, keep your rear end kissing level lower please, you wont get a medal. In some way i agree with Magnu, you either set a goal like for a year, to win something or just let it go and move on. Take a look at Synderen from DOTA2, did exactly the same.
I would like to state that I am not a fan of Ret, not back in broodwar, not now. But a post like that guys was complete bullshit. He starts off saying he's a fan, then says all this back handed shit? You don't talk to people like that in real life, so you shouldn't talk to people like that on their blog. Who are we to tell Ret what he should and shouldn't do? He's his own man and makes his own choices. This kid acts like it's a huge financial drain to TL, when in reality he is a great asset to the team. TL doesn't signed players because they are the best, they sign them because of the type of people they are. The only person that decides if a player leaves TL is the player themselves. On top of that, Ret is still one of the best EU zergs and has been apart of TL and the TL community for way longer than most people. He deserves to be treated with the utmost respect, not talked down to like a child.
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Don't feed the troll, magnumizer is clearly ignorant of ret's history and decisions. Nobody has more autonomy or awareness of liquid's financial state than ret. He argues that ret's been a financial drain on the team but fails to mention how he chose to suspend his own pay in 2012 temporarily because he felt that he wasn't living up to his own potential. How can someone in their right mind question that kind of integrity and spirit?
He's probably too young to remember the harsh conditions ret endured while on estro's b-team, living as the only foreigner, working relentlessly towards his dreams and aspirations in the face of immeasurable odds with almost no community support. Very few in the starcraft community has more dedication than ret, and that post is at best horribly off-base, and at worst maliciously defamatory.
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On January 08 2014 07:50 StorrZerg wrote:
ret can do no harm <3
Indeed, interesting read, thx for sharing Jos.
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Germany2548 Posts
It's still the best RTS out there but compared to Bw Sc2 is just subpar.
I doubt that Blizzard is going to be able to change that.
I've stopped watching Sc2 some time ago except for very few matches. But then, I'd probably watch even if Flash and Jaedong were playing minesweeper.
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Good stuff Ret, always enjoyed watching your macro style. HOTS is a huge improvement from WOL broodlord infestor and it looks like the full array of units are used. I still enjoy watching the game and hopefully tweaking will lead to more diversity in builds.
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There are some very interesting and easy fixes that would make SC2 more enjoyable.
You all know this. They include:
- Making units have bigger spreadout radius
- Removing the attack delay
- Enabling locking turrets (i.e. tanks shooting backwards)
- Modifying the mineral patch placements a bit for many bases to be an advantage
Problem is not really a lack of ideas, it's a lack of unified critique. I believe that if several important figures and players wrote an appeal or something and presented it to blizzard together and then maybe got a big petition going or something along those lines, then it would be a large, unified force that probably could change things up a bit.
edit: btw, I printed that bisu pic and put it in my wallet. Can't wait for his SSL group! :D
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Really nice article Ret, i really love starcraft but i hate how blizzard takes balance/design stuff sooooooooooo damn slowly. if we want to have the best game ever, blizzard needs to invest more money and time into that. But we dont know if they will ever change that mindset and we dont know what is keeping blizzard out of a more proactive stance towards game design and balance of the game like all this new companies like Riot or even guys like IceFrog with Dota.
we need to realize that what we want is irrelevant. Blizzard will not spend a dime if they have no way of generating any return on their investment. Even if blizzard did everything the community wants, and starcraft did become the best game ever, blizzard would still lose money in the process.
When your business model is based on people buying, not (necessarily) playing the game, there is very little incentive to improve the game for the people who already bought it. This, combined with the fact that anyone who might be interested in starcraft has bought it by now, means that any changes that would cost them anything to implement (beyond the cost basic of maintenance) will not happen.
On January 08 2014 07:58 JazVM wrote:
My personal opinion is that Blizzard isn't really trying to "fix" the game itself anymore. At some point, they realized that the business model of Starcraft 2 (pay upfront) aswell as the gameplay itself would take too much effort to change. Instead they did a clever move; they pump money into the scene (WCS) to keep enough people around to still make a profitible release of LotV. I think with the units they introduce in LotV, they will try to circumvent the whole stale deathball kind of gameplay to make the game more exciting, that's exactly what they did in HotS. I doubt that they will change any core parts of the game like unit movement/ unit clustering though.
the bolded part is precisely correct as far as i can tell.
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I think blizzard should have spent way more to make the competitive scene grow, I'm not sure if they realized how big it could have been. Its too late to change fundamental things about the game. We just need bigger and spread out prize pools. (No more $10,000 1st place and $500 4th place etc.)
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are there good minitourneys built into the system?
When I was playing wc3 I recall there being regular daily mini tourneys or something like that.
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On January 09 2014 20:30 ZodaSoda wrote:You want a GhostCrawler (WoW) for StarCraft from Blizzard, i get it i'd like it to... + Show Spoiler +Incase you dunno who GhostCrawler is, he was the Lead System Designer of wow until recently, who was very involved with the wow forum and twitter, he would answer question and explain their motives behind WoW design, especially in moments of class changes... Problem is, that person also garners a lot of hate from the community and becomes a beacon of hate, even when they do good, David Kim is kinda that guy already, so why would he want to bring more angry attention to himself, not everyone is going to be happy with all changes ever and negative opinions are louder than positive ones. I too would love to see a StaCraft team member step up to the plate and be what GhostCrawler was for WoW, but now that he's gone from WoW, i doubt they'll even get a guy like that for themselves again... Blizzard has been and still is a very stoic company... they dont like to talk until they're ready... it sucks... even Kim Phan with WCS isn't similar to how GhostCrawler was for wow, she is very PR heavy... atleast thats the vibe i get... But i hope we can get someone like that, I could've seen Dustin Browder being that guy, but he's now both a Sc2 and Heroes dev, i doubt he has the time, let alone the will to read threw thousands of tweets and forum pages...
This is hilarious to me simply because 100% of the people in the high end pvp arena community (dont know about other wow communities) absolutely hated Ghostcrawlers guts and wanted him fired for years. WAYYYYY more than people dislike David Kim. Plus the guy was much much more legitimately stupid and clueless about the game.
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Australia1191 Posts
On January 10 2014 21:08 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 20:30 ZodaSoda wrote:You want a GhostCrawler (WoW) for StarCraft from Blizzard, i get it i'd like it to... + Show Spoiler +Incase you dunno who GhostCrawler is, he was the Lead System Designer of wow until recently, who was very involved with the wow forum and twitter, he would answer question and explain their motives behind WoW design, especially in moments of class changes... Problem is, that person also garners a lot of hate from the community and becomes a beacon of hate, even when they do good, David Kim is kinda that guy already, so why would he want to bring more angry attention to himself, not everyone is going to be happy with all changes ever and negative opinions are louder than positive ones. I too would love to see a StaCraft team member step up to the plate and be what GhostCrawler was for WoW, but now that he's gone from WoW, i doubt they'll even get a guy like that for themselves again... Blizzard has been and still is a very stoic company... they dont like to talk until they're ready... it sucks... even Kim Phan with WCS isn't similar to how GhostCrawler was for wow, she is very PR heavy... atleast thats the vibe i get... But i hope we can get someone like that, I could've seen Dustin Browder being that guy, but he's now both a Sc2 and Heroes dev, i doubt he has the time, let alone the will to read threw thousands of tweets and forum pages... This is hilarious to me simply because 100% of the people in the high end pvp arena community (dont know about other wow communities) absolutely hated Ghostcrawlers guts and wanted him fired for years. WAYYYYY more than people dislike David Kim. Plus the guy was much much more legitimately stupid and clueless about the game.
That's irrelevant to the fact, he told people what the "Team" was doing with the game how they were thinking and the reasons why they made the changes they did, including high end wow PvP changes...
Name a game where the competitive players dont hate the developer in some way, hell if i was a developer for WoW Arenas i'd prolly tell the players i honestly dont care about their opinions if they "hate"me, even a Ret said, you dont really wanna listen to the players too much, they're extremely biased, especially right after a loss... (which oddly coincides with the same time complain posts are made... right after a loss...)
Also calling a developer of a game stupid and clueless, is just plain silly... it you really believe he was too stupid or clueless to do his job, i dont know why im replying to you... he's not the most perfect System Designer ever, but who is? even the best games in the world, totally suck in many ways... and changes you hated in wow might be loved by many other people, you or even a small minority of people who agree with you, are not as important to a developer as you'd like to be...
In the case of Sc2 it is similar, if they implement the Micro changes to add it similar to BW like lots of people want, there might also be a large group of people who hate it... its really fucking hard to please people in the gaming world these days... Its nice to see the thread about David's Thoughts on Sc2 Balance, but i'd love to see a monthly Sc2 Design and Balance AmA with users and players/explayers, just for Transparency.
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I may not be a high level player, but it feels to me that a lot of things in sc2 are interconnected (e.g. weaker gateway units but having sentries to compensate, Mothership Core to compensate for weak protoss early game, etc). So I'd go as far as to suggest that the game needs to be redesigned. On the spot number fixes (balance) won't really fix the underlying problems in StarCraft.
For instance, remember when you mess up a few forcefields and you lose the game? I believe the Mothership Core addresses this luck factor, so the Mothership Core acts like a "patch" unit. However, the underlying problem is weaker gateway army. So if we end up with no sentries, no mothership core but having stronger gateway army, that would be a much better design fix imho.
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It's still the best RTS out there but compared to Bw Sc2 is just subpar.
You say SC2 is the best RTS and immediately name one that is better? Or did I misunderstand you.
I personally couldn't care less about the perceived lack of balance in SC2. You can't measure balance in complicated games like this. What I care about is SC2 became sooo boring to watch and to play  Games are so similar to one another that my favourite SC2 of 2013 was probably cannon rushes in WCS finals. Not that I watched too many in 2013.
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EPT
