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Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-I dont like you! You're from across that invisible line that seperates this place and that one! (country / town / whatthefuckever)
-I hate you! You're of a completely different skin colour because of genetic adaptation and factors completely out of your control before your own birth!
-You're gay? HOW DARE YOU DO THOSE OBSCENE THINGS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO ANOTHER FULLY CONSCENTING ADULT.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y!
(/sarcasm)
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I could go on, but meh, My point is its fucking ridiculous. Across my life i've been subjected to it like everybody else has and its pretty fucking lame to reflect on it. How in the living fuck can you judge and hate people because of X when you don't even know them? Why don't you take the time to see if you dislike a PERSON instead of a biased assumption of a broad range?
Im not innocent, i hate pikey's / irish travellers, i had terrible experiences due to a bunch of them, i love the irish, but i hate the "pocket society" that is the irish travellers, i have not to this day met a nice one and avoid them like the plague. My mind constantly fears unknown black males because i was once jumped and robbed on christmas eve by a group of them (for a 10 pack of cigarettes -_-)
I probably do subconsciously treat these groups of people differently but i sure as hell dont try to, i'll be as polite and accepting as i am to anyone untill they not their status via race/society/anything prove me wrong.
To all those people out there openly discriminating against people who you've never even fucking said a word to, think about what the fuck your doing and be open untill that specific person proves you wrong.
Because guess what - Everyone is unique, not every christian/black/asian/girl/gay/otherstereotype are identical, evil or whatever is your specific problem with a bunch of people you've never spoken to.
Culture may dictate that X race is liable to do Y more often, that doesnt mean everyone fucking does it!
God fucking damnnnnnnnnnnnn /rant
 
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Because most people like to maintain the false impression that their own genetic attributes or way of life is superior to others, so they have to convince themselves of it by being hostile to others who are not alike. It's really a reaction to their own insecurities.
Also, not everyone has the reasoning ability to discern the traits of each individual, hence some have to resort to labels, stereotypes and generalisations in their judgements.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
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Usually stereotypes and judgements where there to help us discern bad from good. Now-a-days its become something more towards ignorance and hatred then it has a defense mechanism.
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Stereotypes are important to humans, they help us make sense of a world which is honestly far too complex for a human to grasp. While we deep down inside know that people are individuals and bad behaviour can't be generalized to a whole culture just because of certain individuals, we also need to be able to categorize impressions.
If I see 5 people from country X do shitty thing Z, it's not surprising at all that I will expect the 6th person from that country to be the same, even though this doesn't actually represent reality, I can't know how person 6 will act until I meet him.
It's IMO important to recognize the value of stereotypes and then, in turn, fight the urge to discriminate because of it.
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There's a quote from Sartre's "Portrait of the Antisemite" that I think describes it well: "Anti-Semitism, in short, is fear of the human condition. The anti-Semite is a man who wishes to be a pitiless stone, a furious torrent, a devastating thunderbolt - anything except a man."
A racist person can do immoral things (exert control over others, abuse others) without taking responsibility because they are able to justify these actions. One appeal of racism is that a person can justify behaviors otherwise considered negative, kind of like a real-life Grand Theft Auto. Not every racist person does this, but they still manage to boost their own sense of self-worth by marking others as inferior.
Basically I think racism is at its core a response to insecurity, there's no rational basis for it because it isn't perpetuated by logic, it's perpetuated by avoiding responsibility.
And to be sure it also sticks around because we are influenced by our environment and we pick up attitudes from those around us.
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On January 07 2014 16:25 Tobberoth wrote:
Stereotypes are important to humans, they help us make sense of a world which is honestly far too complex for a human to grasp. While we deep down inside know that people are individuals and bad behaviour can't be generalized to a whole culture just because of certain individuals, we also need to be able to categorize impressions.
If I see 5 people from country X do shitty thing Z, it's not surprising at all that I will expect the 6th person from that country to be the same, even though this doesn't actually represent reality, I can't know how person 6 will act until I meet him.
It's IMO important to recognize the value of stereotypes and then, in turn, fight the urge to discriminate because of it.
Stereotypes are inevitable. If the majority of a group does something, you expect the rest to also.
While its ok to expect someone to do X or be like Y, You reserve judgement until you see it for yourself. Instead of assuming and automatically condemning them to whatever it is to begin with.
This is what people the world over fail to realise / do and its what makes the world a shitty place. (Well, a big part of it, many things make the world a shitty place, wheres my hot ice cream.)
Its just a huge huge shame and something i understand but simply cannot fathom.
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On January 07 2014 16:25 Tobberoth wrote:
Stereotypes are important to humans, they help us make sense of a world which is honestly far too complex for a human to grasp. While we deep down inside know that people are individuals and bad behaviour can't be generalized to a whole culture just because of certain individuals, we also need to be able to categorize impressions.
If I see 5 people from country X do shitty thing Z, it's not surprising at all that I will expect the 6th person from that country to be the same, even though this doesn't actually represent reality, I can't know how person 6 will act until I meet him.
It's IMO important to recognize the value of stereotypes and then, in turn, fight the urge to discriminate because of it.
Stereotypes are extremely good for predicting group behaviour, but not behaviour at an individual level. For example, let us say 65% of people from this culture are against abortion. Now, it is obvious to us that that if there is a referendum regarding allowing abortion in that country, it will surely fail. However, if you assume a person of that particular culture is against abortion, you will be wrong 1 in 3 times, which is a very big margin of error.
That being said, it is true that a very strong identification with one's culture predisposes one to embodying stereotypes, and hence through analysis of that, you can discern whether stereotypes apply to a person.
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Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them.
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Discrimination is just a more extreme case of the judgements we make on people every day. It becomes 'discrimation' once we act on the conviction that someone/something is different due to some attribute.
You can't escape your own judgements or anyone else's. Dyed black hair? Goth. Tight jeans? Fag. Doesn't own a car ? Poor.
Take it to the next level.. Can't speak confidently in public? Bad leader. Swears regularly? Uneducated. Likes sports? Masculine.
You will associate some attribute to someone based on your experience(s) with that attribute, and those experiences are the creator of such prejudices.
Sorry but no escape!
Enjoy
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Netherlands19138 Posts
I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes.
My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely:
-Roma Gypsies
-Somalians
-Male Maroccans
Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling.
As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words.
In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it.
Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments.
TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it  .
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^That's perfectly fine. Discrimination is unacceptable when it is about something can't be helped or has no relevance e.g. someone's skin colour or sexual orientation. However, discrimination based on negative acts a person commits due to his cultural beliefs is fine, because people have full control over their ways of life. Anyway, if a person is born into a Roma Gypsy family, but does not choose to follow their lifestyle, you wouldn't discriminate against him.
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On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y!
Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions.
On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it .
QFT
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On January 07 2014 16:59 Entertaining wrote:
Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them. Statistically they're happier and healthier than the general population, so the pity is probably a misplaced sense of superiority. On January 07 2014 19:18 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y! Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions. Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it . QFT His example was disliking someone as a knee-jerk reaction to their religion. You dont have a valid reason to dislike an individual because a series of events with multiple other individuals, sharing his/her faith, have attempted to proselytize you. It's not as if they're a hive mind and are aware that your not interested, and each and everyone has resolved to harass you regardless.
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On January 07 2014 19:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 16:59 Entertaining wrote:
Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them. Statistically they're happier and healthier than the general population, so the pity is probably a misplaced sense of superiority. Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 19:18 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y! Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions. On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it . QFT His example was disliking someone as a knee-jerk reaction to their religion. You dont have a valid reason to dislike an individual because a series of events with multiple other individuals, sharing his/her faith, have attempted to proselytize you. It's not as if they're a hive mind and are aware that your not interested, and each and everyone has resolved to harass you regardless.
See, here's the thing, they always assume that I'm a Christian by default. If I say that I'm not, everybody assumes that I'm interested in hearing about Jesus Chrysler. This has been like 100% my experience so far. Without failiure. In fact, claiming to not care is the worst thing you can possibly do. I've gotten religious literature in my mail after "coming out" to somebody before, to give you an idea. You know what they say, once is an exception. Twice is a coincidince, but three times - it's a pattern. Now try fifty, hundred or more times. I've had it up to here with this stuff really...
I mean, I normally wouldn't really care, but ppl have been so proactive in pushing their shit that I have a really sour taste in my mouth. This shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that they make it into one cause they're just unwilling to consider any other viewpoint.
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On January 07 2014 19:41 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 19:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:On January 07 2014 16:59 Entertaining wrote:
Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them. Statistically they're happier and healthier than the general population, so the pity is probably a misplaced sense of superiority. On January 07 2014 19:18 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y! Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions. On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it . QFT His example was disliking someone as a knee-jerk reaction to their religion. You dont have a valid reason to dislike an individual because a series of events with multiple other individuals, sharing his/her faith, have attempted to proselytize you. It's not as if they're a hive mind and are aware that your not interested, and each and everyone has resolved to harass you regardless. See, here's the thing, they always assume that I'm a Christian by default. If I say that I'm not, everybody assumes that I'm interested in hearing about Jesus Chrysler. This has been like 100% my experience so far. Without failiure. In fact, claiming to not care is the worst thing you can possibly do. I've gotten religious literature in my mail after "coming out" to somebody before, to give you an idea. You know what they say, once is an exception. Twice is a coincidince, but three times - it's a pattern. Now try fifty, hundred or more times. I've had it up to here with this stuff really... I mean, I normally wouldn't really care, but ppl have been so proactive in pushing their shit that I have a really sour taste in my mouth. This shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that they make it into one cause they're just unwilling to consider any other viewpoint. That still doesnt justify disliking someone based on their religion. A religion is composed of millions of individual people, yeah theres trends, but at bottom each group is just composed of individuals. Your prejudging people because of something others did, its irrational and you know it.
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Nyovne
+ Show Spoiler +On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it .
Your view practically mirrors my own. You simply state that you dislike X Y Z as a group but when put in front of an individual from that group, you reserve judgement until they show the qualities/beliefs/whathaveyou that you do in fact discriminate against. (or don't)
That, is perfectly OK. Its when you dislike (lets say) somalians because of ongoing history and majority behavior and upon meeting a somalian, act discriminatory towards them because of the acts of his races behavior regardless.
Reserving judgement until you know someone is a part of the group you discriminate against for legitimate reasons is exactly what i was getting at. It is what everybody should do.
Discriminating without reason (e.g skin color, religion) regardless of the individuals actions is disgusting, should NEVER be done and what i was ranting about.
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On January 07 2014 19:49 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 19:41 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 19:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:On January 07 2014 16:59 Entertaining wrote:
Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them. Statistically they're happier and healthier than the general population, so the pity is probably a misplaced sense of superiority. On January 07 2014 19:18 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y! Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions. On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it . QFT His example was disliking someone as a knee-jerk reaction to their religion. You dont have a valid reason to dislike an individual because a series of events with multiple other individuals, sharing his/her faith, have attempted to proselytize you. It's not as if they're a hive mind and are aware that your not interested, and each and everyone has resolved to harass you regardless. See, here's the thing, they always assume that I'm a Christian by default. If I say that I'm not, everybody assumes that I'm interested in hearing about Jesus Chrysler. This has been like 100% my experience so far. Without failiure. In fact, claiming to not care is the worst thing you can possibly do. I've gotten religious literature in my mail after "coming out" to somebody before, to give you an idea. You know what they say, once is an exception. Twice is a coincidince, but three times - it's a pattern. Now try fifty, hundred or more times. I've had it up to here with this stuff really... I mean, I normally wouldn't really care, but ppl have been so proactive in pushing their shit that I have a really sour taste in my mouth. This shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that they make it into one cause they're just unwilling to consider any other viewpoint. That still doesnt justify disliking someone based on their religion. A religion is composed of millions of individual people, yeah theres trends, but at bottom each group is just composed of individuals. Your prejudging people because of something others did, its irrational and you know it.
So basically according to you I'm trolling right now?
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Netherlands19138 Posts
On January 07 2014 20:03 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 19:49 Dazed_Spy wrote:On January 07 2014 19:41 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 19:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:On January 07 2014 16:59 Entertaining wrote:
Only time I judge people like that is when they are Religious Fundamentalists. Then I pity them. Statistically they're happier and healthier than the general population, so the pity is probably a misplaced sense of superiority. On January 07 2014 19:18 Nikon wrote:On January 07 2014 15:29 Omnishroud wrote:
Do you discriminate? Well take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why, can you give yourself a legitimate reason? Most people sure as hell cant. Heres a list of reasons that aren't legit.
-YOU'RE A -Insert religion- I hate those! They do X and Y! Right so, let's say religious group A tries to spread their belief to me. I'm not interested, and I've told them so, yet they won't stop. What's worse, is that they usually ignorant about their sect's history within the country which leads to them spouting all kinds of "history" at me in the process. Disliking those people is not discrimination. They've made themselves directly unlikeable by their actions. On January 07 2014 19:09 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have strong bias and discriminate against quite a few groups based on a variety of reasons. This is based on how I value quite a few objective and subjective devellopments I have witnessed in my life. These are mainly society and culturally based instead of direct personal contact with individuals allthough this is sadly increasingly proving to support my previous bias and dislikes. My profession, I have to admit, is not beneficial to tolerance towards quite a few groups. It breeds a professional deformation like nothing else with regards to certain negative bias and racist feelings. In general this professional deformation aims itself at certain specific social groups in my country. Namely: -Roma Gypsies -Somalians -Male Maroccans Simply put, if these were to disappear from society today, the drop in certain criminal offenses and pressure on our social security would be huge. These groups, based not only on subjective experience but objective and expansive social and criminal research, contribute to more then 40% of certain social undesireable behavior while consisting of less then 1% of our population. Of two of those groups in particular, more then 95% hasn't worked a day in his or her life and has expressed the desire to never do so. They refuse to participate in our society in any way other then reap its social benefits. To this day it is mindboggling to me that such desire exists and that criminal behavior can actually be a way of life, or even a life philosophy (like certain religious ways are to others), for entire cultures. This 95% is accumulated in almost 50 years of record keeping with regards to employment and social welfare statistics with regards to these distinct groups. Absolutely mindboggling. As for others I consider some, certain islamic elements in particular, to threaten our way of life. They come to my country under pretense and reap social and economic benefits while judging and insulting our way of life and culture. This very way of life that they fled to as to reap its security and benefits. It absolutely disgusts me. I consider this an ongoing and active attempt to subvert our way of life by imposing theirs. I expect the same amount of tolerance and attempts at integration from those immigrants as we have shown them. The intollerable insult of coming here to reap benefits while refusing to not only make any attempt to integrate into our society but to insult and subvert it as well just fills me with a unique kind of rage. I used to be a strong believer of tolerance and coexistance of many cultures and beliefs but this is just impossible to do with a culture or belief that finds itself superior in every way and refuses to accept other beliefs and ways of life. The fact that they fled from a country where their situation created by their own culture made them flee, to another country only to there start imposing that same culture is just too stupid for words. In short, I have restricted my tolerance to those who tolerate and my aid to those who would aid others. Others can do in their part of the world whatever they wish but I expect and even demand tolerance and acceptance of those who decide to move here to partake in our wealth and success. This is accompanied by the demand that those who partake in that wealth and success also try to contribute to it as well as they can as to maintain this way of life for our children and other who come after so that they may continue to enjoy the quality of life we have or even to improve on it. Nearing the end of this rant I feel the need to clarify that my above beliefs in no way result in judgement of individuals. I am biased towards them certainly, but I reserve judgement until I have experience with them personally and in no way shall my feelings towards a group justify being rude to or otherwise negatively treating individuals purely based on certain imporsonal aspects of them. Any heap of coal may harbor a single diamond or a great many, but there is no way to find out except to sift through it. Sadly this is not possible for entire groups of people in a society which may result in certain undesireable, but possibly necessary, social devellopments. TLDR: I abhor intollerance and social paracitism. And yes I am very well aware that being intollerant of intollerance makes me intollerant as well, but I'll live with it . QFT His example was disliking someone as a knee-jerk reaction to their religion. You dont have a valid reason to dislike an individual because a series of events with multiple other individuals, sharing his/her faith, have attempted to proselytize you. It's not as if they're a hive mind and are aware that your not interested, and each and everyone has resolved to harass you regardless. See, here's the thing, they always assume that I'm a Christian by default. If I say that I'm not, everybody assumes that I'm interested in hearing about Jesus Chrysler. This has been like 100% my experience so far. Without failiure. In fact, claiming to not care is the worst thing you can possibly do. I've gotten religious literature in my mail after "coming out" to somebody before, to give you an idea. You know what they say, once is an exception. Twice is a coincidince, but three times - it's a pattern. Now try fifty, hundred or more times. I've had it up to here with this stuff really... I mean, I normally wouldn't really care, but ppl have been so proactive in pushing their shit that I have a really sour taste in my mouth. This shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that they make it into one cause they're just unwilling to consider any other viewpoint. That still doesnt justify disliking someone based on their religion. A religion is composed of millions of individual people, yeah theres trends, but at bottom each group is just composed of individuals. Your prejudging people because of something others did, its irrational and you know it. So basically according to you I'm trolling right now?
No, with that response you're the one actually trolling the topic and I have to insist that you drop that line of discussion as it is detrimental to the topic and derailing it along the way.
His response is aimed at the fact that is understandable to devellop your prejudice against a group based on your previous experiences with them, but that to judge every single individual that exists in that group based on the same bias is a dangerous and unjust thing to do. Having bias is fine, we all do, but to reserve judgement until you actually know is in my opinion the just thing to do here as there is zero basis to judge the individual on.
His word choice of irrational, I'm not so sure about as I find logic (as perceived by people in general, spare me the mathematical and philosofical kind in this discussion please) with its subjective tinge to be a dangerous argument in any personal and subjective discussion.
edit: I am personally very much understanding of your scepticism towards certain religious types btw, no argument there. When one of them singles you out as someone that "has to be saved", any interaction with them becomes hell until it somehow resolves. The irony of those hangers on of certain faiths who's founding is based upon principles of understanding wielding the blunt sword of "help" as another basic principle to ignore any attempt at understanding and acceptance is not lost on me. Religion to me is a very personal thing and I would love others to keep it there as well. It has no place being forced upon others or play any role at all in the public and legislative arena as to me it is something that has to be found and discovered by oneself to be truly believed and appreciated. Any form of religious crusading is to me an admission of insecurity in your own religious beliefs.
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I try to discriminate everyone equally.
- "You can't do that he's black/white/spanish/christian/jewish/hindu/muslim/my mother!!!!11"
- "Yes I can, he's a moron."
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EPT
