|
Update: Well I think I I will not be able to do this in the 31 days because I did not plan for season ladder lock and will not have enough time to get into grandmaster before it. Therefore, I give because of this. I also did not enjoy playing protoss very much (compared to terran). My thoughts from my week 1 update blog still apply though.
Hello, I am intense, a terran player that has been in the grandmaster league on NA server for the past 6 seasons, and a few other times long ago in WoL. Earlier today I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month. I know sjow tried to do this but he failed quite horribly, but I feel that I am capable of pulling this off. I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races. I will be writing my progress in this blog. I will write my first day progress, but after that will only update weekly.
Day 1 (so far):
I went over DH Winter replays of Patience and Naniwa in order to find openings that I liked, I opted for SG openings in all 3 matchups. Here are my BO notes:
+ Show Spoiler +Protoss builds
PvP
9 pylon
12 gate ( scout )
15 double gas ( then use 3rd chrono, saturate 2 ea then rally 3rds )
17 pylon
18 core
19 zlot
When core finishes start WG and get stargate ( should already have 50 chrono when core finishes )
Next 100 gas msc ( 1 chrono on this )
next 50 stalker ( no chrono )
next 150 oracle ( double chrono )
add gates 2 & 3 right now if facing aggresion or drop nexus ( around when oracle is finishing , add gates 2 & 3 after if you get nexus )
1 phoenix ( unless you scout no sg or suspect dts then 2 oracle--->1 phoenix , 1st oracle will confirm whether or not you should move out with 2nd )
if you 3 gate and opponent is expanding, pressure ( with nexus behind this )
after nexus, add robo and forge, tech up to twilight then archons when +1 is halfway done
take 3rd and 4th gases if playing defensive on nexus when it is finishing
go up to 5 gates then take third, if opponent is greedy then go up to 8 gateways and attack w/ zlot archon reinforcments ( collosus, early 3rd, stupid )
warp prism after 2 immortals to hurass, cannon in each mineral line, make sure to have full base vision
TvP
9 pylon
13 gate
16 double gas (rally 15th probe to build both )
2 on each
19 core
start zlot ( do not let finish if no ebay block )
21 msc
23 nexus
23 pylon
after this go sg-->double forge--->5gate---->twilight--->templar & storm
2 base 8 gate greedy terrans or take third and start robo whilist maintaining constant unit production
tech up to collosus, hit 3 base 3/3 timing
make sure to get cannon in each mineral line
PvZ
9 pylon at main
13 gateway
15 double gas
17 pylon
18 core
18 zealot
21 msc
23 nexus
23 wg
23 pylon at nat ( to get wall off )
25 sentry
27 stargate ( 5 phoenix or oracle into 5 phoenix )
3rd and 4th gases at nat around 6:30
add gates 2 & 3 at nat + pylon to get wall w/ sentry & msc
robo --->Forge and +1 -----> 4 more gates
2 immortals----> warp prism -----> obs
push out when 2nd immortal finshes and rally other stuff, make sure to have chrono'd +1 attack to finishing
you should have alot of sentries that were built early on
win
I will be doing this on my main account
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3310952/1/intense/
For updates follow me on twitter @SEEDintense or check this blog weekly, next update will be next Sunday night.
Stream for this starts 12/20 (Friday) http://www.twitch.tv/intensesc
 
|
May the strength of the protoss all ins guide you and the msc keep you safe.
You can probably get GM with protoss since you are really good but top 50 would be hard.
|
Good, I also plan on trying this soon, will aim for GM as toss.
|
I don't think anybody can get top 50 in 1 month with their offrace. Good luck to you though but I can assure you that Pvp will make you not want to play the race.
|
damn I thought this was a statement like it was actually done already...what a disappointment.
good luck with PvP lol.
|
On December 16 2013 14:20 LuckyFool wrote:
damn I thought this was a statement like it was actually done already...what a disappointment.
good luck with PvP lol.
Don't count me out just yet, I'm doing better than anticipated, I expect to be GM by the end of the week probably.
|
|
|
I know you stream but you never mentioned it. Can you stream your progress? I'm sure that there will be quite a few people, like me, wanting to see this.
|
On December 16 2013 14:43 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I know you stream but you never mentioned it. Can you stream your progress? I'm sure that there will be quite a few people, like me, wanting to see this.
Will probably start streaming this coming friday, this week is finals so I wont have much time.
|
i don't know why everyone says protoss is so much easier then terran, Terran is just A-move race with little to no multitasking
Anyway GL i guess, i hope you fail harcore.
[Fedora]Heiwa~
|
|
|
as painful as TvP is, you'll have to face the monster that is PvP
|
|
|
|
|
On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
I'm getting real sick of people spouting BS like this. I hope you end up realizing this is absolutely not true.
|
Good luck in breaking in top 50! Can't wait to see you stream.
I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races
I also can't wait to hear you retract this. It will happen. You simply don't know what you are talking about, and it's surprising seeing how good you are with Terran.
|
good luck dude I know you can do it ez
|
You are a brave/foolish soul to attempt such a feat when you still have finals.
|
I found sjow's toss journey rather entertaining andI hope you will stream yours regularly so we can follow your progress.
I think top 50 will be quite hard but sjow showed that as a GM player you should be able to hit at least high masters soley bases on your mechanics and understanding of sc2 in general (the latter inculdes applying strategies and BOs one has analysed before).
|
Good luck! You can do it!
|
don't let us down
-terran hope
|
On December 16 2013 16:40 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
You are a brave/foolish soul to attempt such a feat when you still have finals.
The ball won't really get rolling till after finals. But I can still fit in an hour or two a night, and after friday is winter break for me, so I can essentially play full time for 2 weeks.
|
On December 16 2013 14:02 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I don't think anybody can get top 50 in 1 month with their offrace. Good luck to you though but I can assure you that Pvp will make you not want to play the race.
Nerchio hit 1st place GM on EU ladder as random... So it's not impossible imho.
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm in gold league, I'll be making the switch to protoss too, see you in GM in a month!
|
Game doesnt take skill, brb switching from minesweeper to sc2. see you in GM in a month!
|
Soo.. Is there any way I can chip in and bet against you?
|
On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month.
Remember guys, he only said NA server.
|
im a protoss. i could do the same with terran on NA. not top50 though...
|
good luck intense, ur a good terran. Enjoy your vacation with protoss!
|
PvP is actually not that bad, i enjoy it :D
|
suddenly a wild nerchio appears.
Anyway I really am sick of people switching to protoss because they want to prove some irrelevant point.
Protoss probably does take the least mechanics, but it still has its own struggles, I always find it much easier to lose with toss than any other race. By lose I mean make one game ending mistake, where the other races there are less things that will just end the game if you do them, or at least they are less common.
Just my 2 cents. Hope you enjoy the journey and goodluck to ya!
|
I'm really curious on which PvZ style intense is going to use, most army compositions rely a lot on good forcefields, that could be an issue for a Terran player.
|
On December 16 2013 21:56 Dunedune wrote:
I'm really curious on which PvZ style intense is going to use, most army compositions rely a lot on good forcefields, that could be an issue for a Terran player.
f clicking is a lot easier than splitting mines and marines
|
On December 16 2013 23:37 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 21:56 Dunedune wrote:
I'm really curious on which PvZ style intense is going to use, most army compositions rely a lot on good forcefields, that could be an issue for a Terran player. f clicking is a lot easier than splitting mines and marines
says someone who has never had to land just the right forcefields or get utterly rolled over...
|
On December 16 2013 23:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:37 oOOoOphidian wrote:On December 16 2013 21:56 Dunedune wrote:
I'm really curious on which PvZ style intense is going to use, most army compositions rely a lot on good forcefields, that could be an issue for a Terran player. f clicking is a lot easier than splitting mines and marines says someone who has never had to land just the right forcefields or get utterly rolled over...
I've played all three races at the same level, so that's a funny thing for you to say. For me, toss was by far the easiest. TvZ is really fun. I stuck with zerg mainly because all races have mediocre mirror matchups, but zerg gets to use mutas in all 3 matchups, so it's the most fun.
|
So when you fail, will it mean that you are wrong and Protoss is really not that much less challenging? I'm just curious.
|
8748 Posts
You forgot to write what is being wagered.
I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
You know how ridiculous this is? Not because it's an established fact that protoss isn't less mechanically and strategically challenging, but because your bet isn't gonna significantly affect anyone's knowledge of the issue. At worst, the bet is gonna be used in serious arguments between idiots as if it's good evidence of some general truth.
|
You'll have nightmares of PvP for the next year or two after you've finished.
|
On December 17 2013 01:41 d00p wrote:
So when you fail, will it mean that you are wrong and Protoss is really not that much less challenging? I'm just curious.
Nah he can just use the whole 'pvp was too boring so I had to give up' excuse.
|
On December 16 2013 17:55 Motoorhead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 14:02 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I don't think anybody can get top 50 in 1 month with their offrace. Good luck to you though but I can assure you that Pvp will make you not want to play the race. Nerchio hit 1st place GM on EU ladder as random... So it's not impossible imho.
Nerchio was never rank 1 grandmaster as random. I know he was rank 1 a few seasons straight but this was with his Zerg. I don't think anybody can get rank 1 grandmasters as random unless its mkp who is kr GM with all 3 races and he plays on NA server.
|
On December 17 2013 01:52 NonY wrote:You forgot to write what is being wagered. Show nested quote +I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races. You know how ridiculous this is? Not because it's an established fact that protoss isn't less mechanically and strategically challenging, but because your bet isn't gonna significantly affect anyone's knowledge of the issue. At worst, the bet is gonna be used in serious arguments between idiots as if it's good evidence of some general truth.
Life is so much more fun when you get to fuck with stupid people. All I see here is a chance to confuse the dummies.
|
I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
So if a Protoss GM player gets to GM quickly as Terran or Zerg, surely they'd be showing the same thing, right? That Terran and Zerg are easy to play, for inferior people?
Good luck in your quest to do well with another race, but your justification for trying this makes you sound like a jerk.
|
On December 17 2013 06:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote + I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races. So if a Protoss GM player gets to GM quickly as Terran or Zerg, surely they'd be showing the same thing, right? That Terran and Zerg are easy to play, for inferior people? Good luck in your quest to do well with another race, but your justification for trying this makes you sound like a jerk.
If a protoss could do that and prove me wrong then I would retract this statement.
|
On December 17 2013 07:32 intense555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races. So if a Protoss GM player gets to GM quickly as Terran or Zerg, surely they'd be showing the same thing, right? That Terran and Zerg are easy to play, for inferior people? Good luck in your quest to do well with another race, but your justification for trying this makes you sound like a jerk. If a protoss could do that and prove me wrong then I would retract this statement.
Your statement has no validity either way. All you're showing is that you're good at the game with multiple races (which is a very respectable thing to show on its own).
|
On December 16 2013 14:20 LuckyFool wrote:
damn I thought this was a statement like it was actually done already...what a disappointment.
good luck with PvP lol.
idk what the deal is with PvP, but that matchup is so simple. People who switch just have to have an open mind and try not to play it like Terran or Zerg.
|
wao things're heating up o_O. I feel like if there's a balance issue it'll either resolve itself or get patches (although I get there can be a lot of pain in the downtime =P)
Remember guys! You don't pick the race, the race picks you.
O_O
But for real Intense, see if you can stream your protoss journey, that'd be neat to watch =O
|
I think you're drastically underestimating how easy protoss is, and I'm speaking as a zerg.
Sure, its a little less challenging, but top 50....
|
Personally I don't think protoss is inherently easier to play, but the way it's being played now is easier to play than the other races, for the most part. To be honest, when zerg had BL infestor, come the late game it wasn't much different from the protoss now; not very mechanically demanding but very position oriented and you had to hit your fungals. I'm not sure why blizzard hasn't seen this correlation yet, or maybe they have and don't know how to fix it, who knows. All I know is that if they fix protoss like they fixed zerg with BL infestor then protoss could be just as mechanically demanding as the other two races, though most protosses would simply whine about it because they're used to the way it is, even though it would diversify the better players from the mediocre ones (i.e. no more 50% toss gm). Maybe I'm completely wrong though, Nony seems to think protoss is as mechanically demanding now as the other two races, and I guess I'd agree for some styles.
|
United States4883 Posts
On December 16 2013 16:11 fezvez wrote:Good luck in breaking in top 50! Can't wait to see you stream. Show nested quote + I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races I also can't wait to hear you retract this. It will happen. You simply don't know what you are talking about, and it's surprising seeing how good you are with Terran.
Agreed on this point.
|
|
|
Nony kinda has a point there, Andy. Also, if you're still going to go through with this, you need to start with a new account, you can't just pick up from your main account's MMR is.
|
On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
Hello, I am intense, a terran player that has been in the grandmaster league on NA server for the past 6 seasons, and a few other times long ago in WoL. Earlier today I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month. I know sjow tried to do this but he failed quite horribly, but I feel that I am capable of pulling this off. I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
Right... you mate, are an idiot.
|
On December 17 2013 12:14 Virium wrote:
Nony kinda has a point there, Andy. Also, if you're still going to go through with this, you need to start with a new account, you can't just pick up from your main account's MMR is.
Yes he can...if it's too hard he'll lose...if it's easy he'll keep winning!
And considering my biases I fucking love this. Show em' the truth and enjoy the opposite side of the TvP coin, intense!
|
Just out of curiosity, what was your average GM rank with Terran?
I think the only way this really shows anything is if you maintain a higher rank as P than you did with T, and that your "maintained" rank goes down again when you switch back to T.
|
On December 17 2013 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what was your average GM rank with Terran?
I think the only way this really shows anything is if you maintain a higher rank as P than you did with T, and that your "maintained" rank goes down again when you switch back to T.
Not really? The time period of one month says A LOT by itself, rofl...
|
On December 17 2013 13:50 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
Hello, I am intense, a terran player that has been in the grandmaster league on NA server for the past 6 seasons, and a few other times long ago in WoL. Earlier today I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month. I know sjow tried to do this but he failed quite horribly, but I feel that I am capable of pulling this off. I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
Right... you mate, are an idiot.
So if he does it, what will be your argument for why it has no validity and that he is still an idiot and wrong? Just wondering.
|
This is dumb. You are dumb, your thread is dumb, and I hope you lose every game.
I'm so tired of every wise ass on TL complaining about how easy to play Protoss is. If you win, brag about how you had to work twice as hard to get it. If you lose complain about the race. When a Protoss says why don't you just play Protoss, insert some condescending statement about how you're too noble to play that dirty race.
I actually did the opposite. I switched to Terran for like 3 weeks playing nothing but Terran on my ladder account. And my Terran is surprisingly good for a shitty Protoss player. And guess what? TvP was my best matchup. Because I know the ins and outs of Protoss and how to exploit them.
People with actual game knowledge can appreciate different races and different playstyles. What makes StarCraft 2 so great is that the races are very different from each other, not just the same thing with different skins. The different races lend each other to different ways of playing the game, and if you can't appreciate that you're an imbecile.
Rather than balance whining, think of things you can do differently. Professional win rates are very close to 50% so it's fair to say that the game is PRETTY balanced for having 3 totally different races.
User was warned for this post
|
It isn't really "up and switching to protoss" if you have hundreds of 1v1 games played on your account as Protoss. I think a lot of people assume that you haven't practiced the race over hundreds of games to learn the hotkeys and other such things, but rather think it's some sort of cold start.
|
On December 17 2013 15:32 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 13:50 aZealot wrote:On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
Hello, I am intense, a terran player that has been in the grandmaster league on NA server for the past 6 seasons, and a few other times long ago in WoL. Earlier today I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month. I know sjow tried to do this but he failed quite horribly, but I feel that I am capable of pulling this off. I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
Right... you mate, are an idiot. So if he does it, what will be your argument for why it has no validity and that he is still an idiot and wrong? Just wondering.
Because, the argument:
premise: Make GM top 50 with Protoss in one month
conclusion: Protoss is both strategically and mechanically less demanding than Z and T
makes no worthwhile sense.
(Nony alludes to it above, too.)
Look at all of the factors contained in that single statement. Then match the intent which is to extrapolate it to 1/3 of the player base, tournament level play, and make it into some sort of definitive statement on the game. That's some gall.
So yeah, the guy is an idiot. But, I clicked into the stream for a minute and saw that it's literally, a kid. No point getting too worked up about it, even if it only encourages more idiocy on TL (and we've had quite a bit of it of late). I'd suggest he get rid of the chip on his shoulder, but as his head is stuck quite far up his own arse, I don't think he'd be able to manage it.
|
don't care about any "point" being proven about balance, but i wish you success just because the toss who whine about being called OP are hilarious. they whine so much about it that it's actually worse than terrans whining about them in the first place
|
Top 50 GM with only Stargate opening ? Meh I think it might be doable, but it's better to do it on a barcode account. Gl anyway.
|
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere.
|
I was master zerg, haven't played for a while, and swtiched to Protoss this season and am high Plat/low dia. Worse MU, PvP. Best is PvT automatically and close behind is PvZ.
I hope you can make it. Everybody should just switch and play PvP
|
On December 17 2013 16:03 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 15:32 tshi wrote:On December 17 2013 13:50 aZealot wrote:On December 16 2013 13:49 intense555 wrote:
Hello, I am intense, a terran player that has been in the grandmaster league on NA server for the past 6 seasons, and a few other times long ago in WoL. Earlier today I made a bet with some ROOT/SEED members that I could achieve top 50 GM on NA server in 1 month. I know sjow tried to do this but he failed quite horribly, but I feel that I am capable of pulling this off. I just want to show that protoss is less mechanically and strategically challenging than the other two races.
Right... you mate, are an idiot. So if he does it, what will be your argument for why it has no validity and that he is still an idiot and wrong? Just wondering. Because, the argument: premise: Make GM top 50 with Protoss in one month conclusion: Protoss is both strategically and mechanically less demanding than Z and T makes no worthwhile sense. (Nony alludes to it above, too.) Look at all of the factors contained in that single statement. Then match the intent which is to extrapolate it to 1/3 of the player base, tournament level play, and make it into some sort of definitive statement on the game. That's some gall. So yeah, the guy is an idiot. But, I clicked into the stream for a minute and saw that it's literally, a kid. No point getting too worked up about it, even if it only encourages more idiocy on TL (and we've had quite a bit of it of late). I'd suggest he get rid of the chip on his shoulder, but as his head is stuck quite far up his own arse, I don't think he'd be able to manage it.
Well, I dont know if being a kid has so much to do with it. I mean, what if Avilo praises him? Are you saying that an adult GM Terran player who also has disdain for Protoss (DAE where can I buy "FUCK PROTOSS" beanie?) agrees with him, it still doesn't have value? What if it is just to prove to himself that he is capable of doing it? When I was young, everyone called me an idiot, but i was still right -- same here.
intense, I support your cause. Every win as P will make your case stronger and that much more worthwhile. I'm sure this will get the attention of the higher-ups at blizzard. Hopefully, at the very least, you get invited into the Pro Forums on Blizzard when they do the Legacy of the Void Beta to give them your input; I know avilo was in there, right?
|
You know, I stand corrected. Thanks. He'd still be an idiot, adult or otherwise.
As for proving to himself that he could do it - hell, yeah. That would be a worthwhile goal. I've got nothing but admiration for players who make it as GM with multiple races (either as random or as a standalone ladder race). That takes skill. But, that has little to do with "proving" whether a race is less demanding (be it mechanically or strategically or both).
That said, all this Terran whine does make a Protoss want to savour all those delicious salty tears from the Terran cry-babies...
|
this is stupid.
Someone made it to top GM level with 6 pool only and even beat established players like white-ra, it doesn't mean zerg is proven to be "less mechanically and strategically challenging" or whatever.
And that is only ONE strategy facing ALL 3 races.
I am completely baffled at how terran GMs are so keen on proving that their race is superior in terms of mechanics etc by an inappropriate method and makes the lower league players thinking the same thing like how protoss so easy etc.
|
On December 17 2013 17:34 aZealot wrote:
You know, I stand corrected. Thanks. He'd still be an idiot, adult or otherwise.
As for proving to himself that he could do it - hell, yeah. That would be a worthwhile goal. I've got nothing but admiration for players who make it as GM with multiple races (either as random or as a standalone ladder race). That takes skill. But, that has little to do with "proving" whether a race is less demanding (be it mechanically or strategically or both).
That said, all this Terran whine does make a Protoss want to savour all those delicious salty tears from the Terran cry-babies...
not seeing any "whine" in the OP at all, actually. he laid out his plan, explained his thought process and started his experiment. if you categorize any opinion about the game other than "it's perfectly balanced and i love it!!" as "balance whine," then why even have a forum?
when did "whining" become synonymous with "criticizing?" if i say i don't like how protoss is designed, i'm a balance whiner. if i say i don't like something about terran or protoss, i'm "biased" because i'm zerg. what's with the rash of "you're not allowed to have a negative opinion of anything" on TL?
sure, if someone is being BM or raging, i understand calling the person a whiner and putting down their thread. but i don't see OP dropping curse words, belittling other players, trashing blizzard or asking for handouts. he's just trying to extrapolate a belief he has through experimentation. he didn't spam up SC2 general with it, he posted it under blogs (unless it was moved, in which case my mistake)
imagine if everyone in scientific fields who came up with a hypothesis and tried to experiment upon it were labeled a whiny idiot. that would be great for the world
|
so many butthurt protoss in here 
|
So we going to get EVERY Terran trying this now until one of them finally makes it so that all the Terrans can turn around and go "SEE LOOK ITS POSSIBLE! PROTOSS OP!" are we? Oh you silly balance whiners. X-D
The funniest part is because SjoW already tried this and failed even if the OP does it that'll make it a 50-50 success rate for Terrans trying to reach GM with Protoss. Hardly a convincing number.
On a side note I find it very amusing that the OP is hiding the fact that he already has hundreds of games played as Protoss before he even started this.
|
On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere.
I don't think you understand how that works.
On December 17 2013 20:15 QzYSc2 wrote:so many people who understand how to validate a claim in here
Fixed that for you.
|
On December 17 2013 21:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere. I don't think you understand how that works. Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 20:15 QzYSc2 wrote:so many people who understand how to validate a claim in here Fixed that for you.
jesus, you're being pedantic. saying he's trying to prove it doesn't mean "if this one player succeeds at this, it's undeniable proof and everyone has to admit protoss is OP." it means he's trying to aid the effort of "proving" it (yes, everyone knows you technically can't "prove" something like this beyond opinion) by adding his experiences to the body of evidence we all have to consider
|
On December 17 2013 21:54 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 21:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere. I don't think you understand how that works. On December 17 2013 20:15 QzYSc2 wrote:so many people who understand how to validate a claim in here Fixed that for you. jesus, you're being pedantic. saying he's trying to prove it doesn't mean "if this one player succeeds at this, it's undeniable proof and everyone has to admit protoss is OP." it means he's trying to aid the effort of "proving" it (yes, everyone knows you technically can't "prove" something like this beyond opinion) by adding his experiences to the body of evidence we all have to consider
I'm not even talking about the actual definition of proof. If you've read the responses, you'd see pretty good explanations as to why the OP trying this doesn't do anything at all besides merely show he's good at the game with multiple races. The conclusion about Protoss being easier isn't a valid one to make after he makes this GM run (if he does in the first place).
|
On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere.
Actually he is. Trying to prove it is secondary.
|
Besides.. I main Protoss and my Terran is pretty good as well. What does that mean?
|
On December 17 2013 21:54 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 21:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere. I don't think you understand how that works. On December 17 2013 20:15 QzYSc2 wrote:so many people who understand how to validate a claim in here Fixed that for you. jesus, you're being pedantic. saying he's trying to prove it doesn't mean "if this one player succeeds at this, it's undeniable proof and everyone has to admit protoss is OP." it means he's trying to aid the effort of "proving" it (yes, everyone knows you technically can't "prove" something like this beyond opinion) by adding his experiences to the body of evidence we all have to consider
OP says that goal is to show that protoss is less mechanicaly and strategically challenging than the other two races. First of all, why two races? How this 'experiment' is going to show that protoss is less mechanicaly and strategically more challenging than zerg? Secondly, if someone is saying that he will 'show' us something, that means that he's already made his mind about certain subject, isn't he? And this is not good attitiude when conducting an experiment.
You say that he's not trying to prove the statment about, let's call it, "inferiority" of Protoss, that he's only "adding the experience to the body of evidence we all have to consider". Sorry, but if you want to consider some set of data an evidence, then you must take specific steps, and this endevour does not meet the criteria of objective, scientific experiment at all (he doesnt have proper hypothesis, he is not chosing variables based on some theory, he is not operationalising variables, he doesnt have proper measuring tools, and he has no statistical means to analyze the data). For me you are saying that he's not conducting experiment while conducting experiment that will bring some 'evidence'.
Let's assume that he will reach the top 50 GM with Protoss. What will that show? That he is capable of playing Protoss on reasonably high level. If he would have said in OP that this is his goal, everything would be fine. But he is saying something very different. And that's the problem.
|
On December 17 2013 15:17 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 15:15 RampancyTW wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what was your average GM rank with Terran?
I think the only way this really shows anything is if you maintain a higher rank as P than you did with T, and that your "maintained" rank goes down again when you switch back to T. Not really? The time period of one month says A LOT by itself, rofl... Uhhh.
If he's already in GM as Terran it stands to reason that he has good mechanics, game sense, etc. He may break top 50 GM as P, and he may not, but that doesn't really show anything unless he's unable to break top 50 as Terran.
|
On December 17 2013 23:07 abmab wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 21:54 Waise wrote:On December 17 2013 21:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 17 2013 16:28 painkilla wrote:
Protoss players. He is not balance whining "imbatoss ez op". He is actually trying to prove it. So please take your whining about whining elsewhere. I don't think you understand how that works. On December 17 2013 20:15 QzYSc2 wrote:so many people who understand how to validate a claim in here Fixed that for you. jesus, you're being pedantic. saying he's trying to prove it doesn't mean "if this one player succeeds at this, it's undeniable proof and everyone has to admit protoss is OP." it means he's trying to aid the effort of "proving" it (yes, everyone knows you technically can't "prove" something like this beyond opinion) by adding his experiences to the body of evidence we all have to consider OP says that goal is to show that protoss is less mechanicaly and strategically challenging than the other two races. First of all, why two races? How this 'experiment' is going to show that protoss is less mechanicaly and strategically more challenging than zerg? Secondly, if someone is saying that he will 'show' us something, that means that he's already made his mind about certain subject, isn't he? And this is not good attitiude when conducting an experiment. You say that he's not trying to prove the statment about, let's call it, "inferiority" of Protoss, that he's only "adding the experience to the body of evidence we all have to consider". Sorry, but if you want to consider some set of data an evidence, then you must take specific steps, and this endevour does not meet the criteria of objective, scientific experiment at all (he doesnt have proper hypothesis, he is not chosing variables based on some theory, he is not operationalising variables, he doesnt have proper measuring tools, and he has no statistical means to analyze the data). For me you are saying that he's not conducting experiment while conducting experiment that will bring some 'evidence'. Let's assume that he will reach the top 50 GM with Protoss. What will that show? That he is capable of playing Protoss on reasonably high level. If he would have said in OP that this is his goal, everything would be fine. But he is saying something very different. And that's the problem.
THIS +1000000000000
Just because I can offrace Terran fairly well doesn't mean that any conjecture I make about Terran is automatically correct.
The same applies to this guy and Protoss.
|
United States4883 Posts
Would everyone just relax.
The statement intense made was a rather asinine one, but he is a smart player. I've been watching his stream, and he's doing fairly well with protoss considering. He lacks a fundamental understanding of how the race works, but his mechanics and general decision making are fairly strong, strong enough to beat most masters players who suck balls. In the end, I'm not sure if getting to GM as protoss proves anything about the race, but is probably more a testament to intense's skill.
I originally came here to hate, but. I hope intense has a good experience and I hope he learns a few things about protoss he didn't know before.
|
To be clear, I was unable to get GM this season due to my TvP winrate. Getting top 50 GM as protoss which I have less than a few hundred games played as compared to terran which I have over 10000 games played means something to me at the very least.
|
It means your skills at SC2 carry over between races. It's like claiming Dota is an easier game, because you picked it up quickly after 10k games of league of legends.
|
On December 18 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:
It means your skills at SC2 carry over between races. It's like claiming Dota is an easier game, because you picked it up quickly after 10k games of league of legends.
It means excatly what it does : a non GM terran can get top 50 GM by switching to protoss.
|
On December 18 2013 01:12 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:
It means your skills at SC2 carry over between races. It's like claiming Dota is an easier game, because you picked it up quickly after 10k games of league of legends. It means excatly what it does : a non GM terran can get top 50 GM by switching to protoss.
It would mean that that one non-GM terran can get top 50 GM as protoss.
I doubt he can achieve it anyway, even with cheesing a lot. It will probably end with a "I don't understand PvP".
|
On December 18 2013 01:12 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:
It means your skills at SC2 carry over between races. It's like claiming Dota is an easier game, because you picked it up quickly after 10k games of league of legends. It means excatly what it does : a non GM terran can get top 50 GM by switching to protoss.
I thought Bad_Habit proved a long time ago that GM means very little, since he got there season after season by 6 pooling. But I guess the balance whiners need their "evidence". I bet Jaedong never thought about trying to prove one race was easier than the other. Takes away from his focus on winning against all odds.
|
On December 18 2013 00:36 SC2John wrote:
Would everyone just relax.
The statement intense made was a rather asinine one, but he is a smart player. I've been watching his stream, and he's doing fairly well with protoss considering. He lacks a fundamental understanding of how the race works, but his mechanics and general decision making are fairly strong, strong enough to beat most masters players who suck balls. In the end, I'm not sure if getting to GM as protoss proves anything about the race, but is probably more a testament to intense's skill.
I originally came here to hate, but. I hope intense has a good experience and I hope he learns a few things about protoss he didn't know before.
I agree that a larger sample pool than just me and sjow would be required to have any real meaning but so far this has been quite entertaining and something I've wanted to try for a while. Maybe I will try for top 50 gm as zerg in 1 month if I succeed.
|
I will try to adress the rest of your questions in my week 1 benchmark writeup.
|
On December 18 2013 01:31 intense555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 00:36 SC2John wrote:
Would everyone just relax.
The statement intense made was a rather asinine one, but he is a smart player. I've been watching his stream, and he's doing fairly well with protoss considering. He lacks a fundamental understanding of how the race works, but his mechanics and general decision making are fairly strong, strong enough to beat most masters players who suck balls. In the end, I'm not sure if getting to GM as protoss proves anything about the race, but is probably more a testament to intense's skill.
I originally came here to hate, but. I hope intense has a good experience and I hope he learns a few things about protoss he didn't know before. I agree that a larger sample pool than just me and sjow would be required to have any real meaning but so far this has been quite entertaining and something I've wanted to try for a while. Maybe I will try for top 50 gm as zerg in 1 month if I succeed.
It is definitely a fun project for viewers as well whether it really means anything. I'd love to see more high level Z and P doing the same thing.
|
|
|
Good luck, a lot of people seem to think our whining is just whining cause we suck. but honestly, I could easily roll toss in Master league in WoL, and I can't roll golds now, actual golds not mmr decayed golds, cause of oracle harrass, and msc, it stresses me out so much, I hate the MU now
|
On December 18 2013 11:40 ::Rhapsody wrote:
Good luck, a lot of people seem to think our whining is just whining cause we suck. but honestly, I could easily roll toss in Master league in WoL, and I can't roll golds now, actual golds not mmr decayed golds, cause of oracle harrass, and msc, it stresses me out so much, I hate the MU now
"Sounds to me like Terran was way too strong in WoL then if you were able to beat Masters back then and now you can't beat Golds."
My point with that silly comment? "I was beating higher players back then than I am now!" can be interpreted in a number of different ways and is NOT proof of imbalance.
|
The self-serving bias among Starcraft players is very prominent. During brood war it was Terran players who were the most vocal complainers, which I think is partially as a result of vocal foreign pro players like Idra and Artosis who were incessant complainers - especially TvP. For reference, if you combine brood war OSL and MSL victories this is what you get:
Terran - 26 gold / 16 silver - 42 total
Zerg - 20 gold / 26 silver - 46 total
Protoss - 14 gold / 18 silver - 32 total
In Starcraft II, early on I would say Zerg players became the most vocal complainers once again in part due to Idra and Artosis being the unofficial mouthpieces of how awful Zerg was - the most vocal complaint being how shitty ZvP was for the Zerg. I would say Terran players are now once again the most vocal complainers for SC2 - with their main irritant being TvP. Again, let's look at some of championships being won for GSL:
Terran: 7 gold / 10 silver - 17 total
Zerg: 9 gold / 6 silver - 15 total
Protoss: 4 gold / 4 silver - 8 total
Protoss doesn't exactly perform that well at the highest level of competition throughout SC2 despite all the complaining that Protoss is the weakest / shittiest race to play as in the game. How exactly is Protoss the easiest / least mechanically challenging race while also being the least winning race throughout the entire series - BW and SC2? It's not like people are saying, 'Protoss is the easiest to play and also the weakest at high levels' - the comment is that Protoss is too easy and overpowered.
One thing I will give OP credit for is that he recognizes that Terran is very hard to play but also seemingly has the highest skill cap - so at the highest levels Terran is possibly the best race.
|
I checked out your stream. It looks like You've started to get hulk smashed by Masters players much like Sjow. A lot of PvZ losses much like Sjow. How many days will it be before you quit the "experiment" and cite how stupid PvP is, or some other nonsense just like Sjow.
|
|
|
On December 20 2013 07:50 Zanzabarr wrote:
I checked out your stream. It looks like You've started to get hulk smashed by Masters players much like Sjow. A lot of PvZ losses much like Sjow. How many days will it be before you quit the "experiment" and cite how stupid PvP is, or some other nonsense just like Sjow.
PvP is fun, but yea my PvZ needs work. Im almost gm though.
|
On December 20 2013 07:50 Zanzabarr wrote:
I checked out your stream. It looks like You've started to get hulk smashed by Masters players much like Sjow. A lot of PvZ losses much like Sjow. How many days will it be before you quit the "experiment" and cite how stupid PvP is, or some other nonsense just like Sjow.
Looks like he did ok in PvP yesterday.
|
Will do week 1 benchmark write up tomorrow after stream.
|
|
|
On December 17 2013 02:46 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 17:55 Motoorhead wrote:On December 16 2013 14:02 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
I don't think anybody can get top 50 in 1 month with their offrace. Good luck to you though but I can assure you that Pvp will make you not want to play the race. Nerchio hit 1st place GM on EU ladder as random... So it's not impossible imho. Nerchio was never rank 1 grandmaster as random. I know he was rank 1 a few seasons straight but this was with his Zerg. I don't think anybody can get rank 1 grandmasters as random unless its mkp who is kr GM with all 3 races and he plays on NA server.
most top kor could do it on NA/EU lol.
@intense. Imo as far as PvZ just pick a good pressure build than transition into a wacky all in. You can't play the mu in the hands of the Z or the experience deficit will suck. + all ins are the best way to climb the ladder anyway.
And stream some T games after your experiment, always interesting to see a decent T streaming.
|
|
|
|
|
Well I think I I will not be able to do this in the 31 days because I did not plan for season ladder lock and will not have enough time to get into grandmaster before it. Therefore, I give because of this. I also did not enjoy playing protoss very much (compared to terran). My thoughts from my week 1 update blog still apply though.
|
I found this while searching for something else.
I see the account linked in OP at #37 GM. Was that with Protoss or a switch back to Terran?
|
|
|
On December 25 2013 10:28 intense555 wrote:
Well I think I I will not be able to do this in the 31 days because I did not plan for season ladder lock and will not have enough time to get into grandmaster before it. Therefore, I give because of this. I also did not enjoy playing protoss very much (compared to terran). My thoughts from my week 1 update blog still apply though.
lol I was wondering what happened with this blog. I guess the OP was yet another whining Terran who failed to back up their claims on how they think their race is so inferior and have the feel to have to play another race to prove it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
