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SPL 13-14 Power Rank

Blogs > Zealously
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Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-15 00:01:44
December 13 2013 15:40 GMT
#1
Once upon a time, Fionn wrote a SPL Power Rank. Things didn't work out very well that time. Hopefully, the #1 team in this ranking won't finish in last place. Although with Media Day still in the future and (probably) more announcements to come, it's not really a far-fetched idea that PL will be shaken up even more before opening day. What strikes me about the current team line-ups right now though is that, aside from one very sad-looking team, this season looks like it could be a lot more exciting than the last two, with almost all teams acquiring new strong players or seeing a rise in the skill of their B-teamers. Anyway, without further ado:




#8 Prime
When it was announced that Prime, IM and MVP had joined KeSPA, most of us immediately jumped to the conclusion that they wanted to participate in Proleague. We were right about that, and it seems like we'll be right about the second conclusion most immediately came to, as well: Prime is in trouble. With their roster at the time consisting of (T)Maru, (T)ByuN, (P)Creator, B-teamers (P)Chance and (Z)TerrOr along with the complete wild card (P)Kal (GooJila). On that roster, Maru was the undisputed ace as the only consistently performing player on Prime in 2013, and indeed one of the best performing players of the year overall. A roster like that was never going to be competing for first place, but they still stood a chance at redeeming themselves through hard work and dedicated preparation. However, with Maru's recent departure to Jin Air Green Wings, the Startale fan in me cheers as Prime have gone from kind of fucked to completely screwed.
Unless Byun and Creator pull it together and get back to their best shapes and Kal shows the world that his great Hybrid League performance was something he could build upon, Prime will end up last. They no longer have a super-ace player to carry them in (if there even is one) an all-kill round and they lack the depth to consistently survive Bo7 matches in Proleague format. MKP may still be in the Prime house looking cute, but unless the team pulls out a miracle, all of MKP's former SC2 team mates will have cried enough to make MKP look like a badass by the season's end.

#7 MVP
Spots 7 through 5 are hotly contested and really just toss-ups. As for team MVP, they unquestionably have a lot of depth, an important ingredient to Proleague success. Though for all their depth ((Z)DongRaeGu, (T)KeeN, (T)Dream, (P)Super and team league-sniper supreme (P)TAiLS is not a joke line-up), I remain worried about the team's consistency. DRG regularly goes back and forth between champion and scrub, and while his right-hand men Super and Dream doubtless have incredible potential, they don't consistently put up the results players on their level should. Dream's TvZ when he is on top of his game is reminiscent of MMA in his prime and Super should be a robust team league anchor, but for some reason MVP never strings these things together. I'm very open to the possibility of MVP reaching the playoffs if a few of their players can find the consistency necessary to perform in 2-4 games each week for months on end, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

#6 Samsung Galaxy Khan
Spots 7 through 5 are hotly contested and really just toss-ups. Samsung Khan (now with 100% more Milky Way) is the team of the B-teamers. (P)eMotion, (Z)Solar and (Z)BurNing, despite their complete lack of offline results, are part of the next generation of SC2 pros. With no history in competitive Brood War to speak of, these are the KeSPA pros that are carving names for themself solely on the back of their performances in SC2, through almost solely online tournaments. These three guys play a lot of online cups and qualifiers. Although their match histories aren't the most impressive, all of them have at least one match-up hovering around 65% win rate or higher, despite the great wall of lag that often hinders Korean players from performing in EU cups. With Sora's highly impressive, almost meteoric rise to prominence starting with WCG Korea, I've learned to observe the online cups and qualifiers with more interest. And these three, along with last season's regulars (T)Reality, (P)Stork (who is bound to keep improving given his incredible mindset and approach) and (Z)RorO (ew), have the potential to either bring Samsung Galaxy Khan to the playoffs, or send them crashing and burning. With how impressive Samsung's b-team trio has looked recently, I feel inclined to believe in the first alternative rather than in the second.

#5 KT Rolster
Spots 7 through 5 are hotly contested and really just toss-ups. KT, KT, KT. Alternative spelling: Flash, Flash, Flash. Last season was a minor disappointment in the eyes of those who prefer KT over SKT, with only two players really delivering: (T)Flash and, somewhat surprisingly, WookiP7GAB(P)Zest. But despite the duo's Proleague exploits, they failed to make a significant mark in individual leagues just like the rest of the team. Although Flash was booted from Code S through unfortunate (though understandable - Flash's legacy leaves him with a giant target mark on his head) chains of events, usually involving groups of utter annihilation, it's hard to say that 2013 has been a fairly disappointing year for the man known as God. While Flash could carry KT's name in Brood War, this isn't the case in SC2 and the multiple Proleague champions are left with a kind of mediocre-looking line-up. Don't get me wrong, KT's line-up isn't weak and their combined experience is superior to most other teams in the league, but it's not a star-studded line-up. TY and Flash were among the top performing players last season (Flash being the MVP), but where other teams seem to have found new strength in different players or acquisitions, KT has remained seemingly stationary. Once more, it comes down to Flash and Flash's support cast. Puzzle, Stats, TY, Zest and Crazy have all shown periodic flares of brilliance (everything is relative), but with the risk of sounding like a broken record I must repeat that consistency is key. If more than one or two players on KT can bring their play closer to their actual potential, I have a hard time seeing KT not making the playoffs. But it isn't always that simple with KT.

#4 Incredible Miracle
At this point, I feel like IM could start calling themselves IAOG (Incredible Amounts Of Gold) instead. Just look at all the gold. Now, the IM of 2013 isn't as impressive as the IM of 2011, but their current roster seems to have sacrificed some of its gold-digging power for more depth. IM is far from a 2-man show today, and their team, with the addition of Liquid'(P)HerO has too many good players for me to talk about each one in-depth. I'll let this picture speak for itself:

[image loading]

In a team-league format like Proleague's, I'd put money on IM's three best performing players being, in any order: (Z)ByuL, (P)First and (T)YoDa. Squirtle isn't in his best shape ever at the moment and Nestea/Mvp are huge question marks. Chances are, since IM is in Proleague, that they will be a lot more willing to participate than they've historically been when it comes to team leagues, and their strategical minds could be of great assistance to IM. Will they actually be good enough to regularly play (and win) themselves, though? It's hard to say, but with Ruin and YongHwa and their Liquid mercenary for backup, IM won't even need to field their combined seven GSL championships. This gives them a little room to get cute with line-ups, more than many other teams can afford.
UPDATE: KangHo apparently left Incredible Miracle. IM thus drops to 4th place.

#3 Jin Air Green Wings
Until yesterday, I would have put Jin Air in 7th place just ahead of Prime. A roster consisting of (Z)TRUE, (P)Terminator, (Z)Savage, (P)MANBABY and (T)Cure doesn't really inspire confidence. Polar opposite of many SC2 teams, those 5 would make a great bulk in any team but unfortunately seem to lack a super-ace on the level of Maru, Soulkey or Parting. Fortunately for ex-Team 8, the Jin Air money seems to have remedied this with the acquisition of not one, but two aces: (T)Maru and (P)sOs. Two WCS champions stronger, Jin Air suddenly looks a lot less like the Team 8 that had to struggle with ace matches and more like a team that'll be at its best at match point. For each match, Jin Air can bring five reliable players and leave the sixth match for whoever they feel fits the most. Having 7-8 players capable of consistently winning games is a huge advantage in the Proleague format. Add in the patented unpredictability of sOs and Maru for most if not all ace matches, and Jin Air becomes a juggernaut that'll only be stopped by teams with equal rosters. Which, naturally, isn't that many.

#2 SK Telecom T1
"Zealously, you're crazy! Have you even looked at SKT's line-up? They're completely unbeatable!", you say. "Yes, they have the most impressive roster", I answer. "But that's not all there is to team league success". This is a well-documented fact in Starcraft. Just having the star power doesn't make your team the winning team. IM repeatedly failed to win GSTL despite their line-up becoming scarier by the season, and there are similar examples in Brood War when a team had the most impressive line-up in terms of individual league results and still failed to deliver. It happens, and it makes me cautious when assessing SKT's chances in the upcoming season.
They'll make the playoffs unless a miracles happens, that much is for certain, but beyond that point, what is certain?
As their core players, they have (P)PartinG, (P)Rain and (Z)Soulkey, with (Z)soO and (P)Classic filling the support roles. (T)FanTaSy is the wildest card in Proleague and might actually decide whether or not SKT wins the season. If iloveoov has taught him that having a 2k bank at 15 minutes actually isn't very useful, his trademark high-octane aggression and superb micro will make him a force to be reckoned with and probably enough to cover up any weaknesses that may surface in SKT's line-up as the season progresses. If not, however... Well, he'll keep sucking and SKT's fate will pretty much hang on the same 4-or-so players never losing, which isn't a comfortable spot to be in as a team.

#1 CJ Entus
"Zealously you're drunk, go home!", you say. "I don't drink alcohol!", I reply, upset.
Seriously, though, putting CJ Entus in first place is a leap of faith, I do not deny it. But my track record with leaps of faith is very decent, and here is why CJ Entus will win SPL '13-14:

  • The Coach Park effect: Yong Woon Park had a clearly positive effect on EG-TL last season. Though he joined the team well into the season, the players quickly began talking about improvements in team atmosphere and general practise environment, and my short chat with Coach Park at Dreamhack: Stockholm helped sell the picture that the guy is a genius. On CJ, it seems that he has had a similarly positive effect. He correctly predicted herO being the first player on CJ to win a premier championship, and the series of showmatches organised by CJ seems to be mostly his doing.
  • Potential: Obviously, this point is a subjective one. Many would argue that players like Soulkey, Flash or Parting have equal or greater potential, but based on what I've seen recently, three of CJ's core players seem to have hit their strides simultaneously. IEM Singapore had the CJ trio consisting of Effort, Hydra and herO in the top 8, with both Effort and Hydra falling to the PvZ maestro San but putting on otherwise very convincing performances. The trio's kill list includes (P)Oz, (T)Dream (x2), (T)Bomber, (P)Squirtle, (T)Hack, (T)Mvp, (Z)DRG and (P)San. What should strike you about this list is that it roughly represents the average skill level in Proleague, and if the trio keeps improving at their current pace, the list of players that could reliably stop them will keep shrinking.
  • (P)Sora: I won't lie, I'm a huge Sora fan. Behind Life, Sora is the player I'm rooting the hardest for and subsequently also the player I'm the most willing to be impressed by. But look at this shit, seriously. His match history is relatively short, but very impressive. He has an 81.48% win rate in PvT. Yes, you read that right. Sora has recently beaten Parting (74% PvP win rate) 3-1 in an offline Bo5, showcasing a mastery of both macro PvP and intense early-game micro battles. This fact alone bodes very well for any SPL ace matches, where Protoss players are bound to appear in great numbers.
  • Wild cards: This point is closely tied with the Coach Park effect - the former SKT coach has an eye for talent and seems to be very good at developing said talent. (T)Bbyong and (Z)SonGDuri have both made it into Code S this year, while (P)Trust, (T)Bunny and (T)sKyHigh have all made it to Code A at least once. Should these three players raise their level of play to that of your average Code S player, CJ won't just have two (or more) stunningly good aces in herO and Sora, they will also have a bulk of players of all three races that can maintain a 50%+ win rate in Proleague, enough to win matches straight-up against weaker teams and enough to bring it to the ace match against the more dangerous teams, where the championship-winning play of Sora and herO can close it out.

    Edit: Proleague format confirmed to be Bo5. CJ wins.


Unlike last season, I don't think SPL 13-14 can be as one-sided as Woongjin's dominance during the regular season made it feel last season. SKT and CJ will, most likely, battle it out to the very last match - these two are far and away the teams that should be fighting for the #1 spot.
It'll be exciting.

+ Show Spoiler +
Obligatory "haha, Prime" from a die-hard StarTale fan




****
AdministratorBreak the chains
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 13 2013 15:50 GMT
#2
Bbyong is usually the worst player in Code S whenever he makes it

Whether that is impressive or weird, I dunno

Maybe it's impressive
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
December 13 2013 15:53 GMT
#3
solid write up, but skt should be number one.

also
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 07 2012 18:46 Zealously wrote:
Prime fighting!

TL+ Member
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 13 2013 15:56 GMT
#4
On December 14 2013 00:50 lichter wrote:
Bbyong is usually the worst player in Code S whenever he makes it

Whether that is impressive or weird, I dunno

Maybe it's impressive


Making Code S and sucking is more impressive than being awesome in Code A and still not cutting it
AdministratorBreak the chains
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
December 13 2013 16:05 GMT
#5
mvp on 7 is just incredibly wrong, prepare to be proven wrong
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
tili
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1332 Posts
December 13 2013 16:09 GMT
#6
Again. Someone. Please make Zealously a featured blogger.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
December 13 2013 17:16 GMT
#7
On December 14 2013 01:09 tili wrote:
Again. Someone. Please make Zealously a featured blogger.

[image loading]
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
December 13 2013 17:35 GMT
#8
Amazing blog, thank you! Why is this not in the article section, with a little formatting it certainly meets the required standard, doesn't it?
Would be a shame if it is not read that much because it's only in blog section.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 13 2013 17:46 GMT
#9
I wanted to write this right now and I was pretty bored so this passed the time nicely. Hopefully I'll be doing a pre-PL article as well.
AdministratorBreak the chains
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 13 2013 17:58 GMT
#10
skyhigh plssssssssss

never forget his one win against revival in last PL xd
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
December 13 2013 18:06 GMT
#11
On December 14 2013 00:50 lichter wrote:
Bbyong is usually the worst player in Code S whenever he makes it

Whether that is impressive or weird, I dunno

Maybe it's impressive

Bbyong is literally the new ensnare.
Glorious SEA doto
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 18:40:06
December 13 2013 18:39 GMT
#12
I think you underrate MVP and overrate IM (I think their current line-up is worse than what EG-TL originally sent out) and ohgloriousleadertowinCJPL? Please. They aren't even close to number one.

EG-TL had no where to go but up after that Round, so save the ohgoloriousleadertalk.
massivez
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium653 Posts
December 13 2013 19:07 GMT
#13
Need a CJ shirt nao! Can't wait for them too showcase their depth.
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
December 13 2013 19:10 GMT
#14
CJ at number one? wow
Moderatorlickypiddy
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 19:19:16
December 13 2013 19:17 GMT
#15
CJ was meant to be a dark horse (I mean like Atletico Madrid in Spain) who will win coz of well coached young players but when you expect too much from such thing it usually does not work.
You put Samsung with the same situation on 6 place and CJ on 1.
I have the following thoughts on this:
Both has young players who are good online BurNinG - SonGDuri, Bong, Trust - eMotion, Trend
Both has regular players: RorO - herO, Reality - EffOrt, Shine - Hydra
Both has a young championship calibre player: Solar - Sora
If Stork performs well then I say these teams are equal if not then CJ has a small advantage but not 5 places as written here.
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 13 2013 19:19 GMT
#16
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.

something i can agree with.
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 19:36:47
December 13 2013 19:33 GMT
#17
Also I would like to add that it is impossible to make a power rank in Korea that is why I would make a group version:
1st group: Jin Air, SKT, MVP
These teams have perfect lineups for every race and have at least 3 aces to choose from.
2nd group: IM, KT
These teams have problems with 1 race, they lack variety they will always have 1-2 players who are unstable, also they have at least 2 aces.
3rd group CJ, KHAN
These teams have no problems with lineup but have problems with experience of their players, they have at least 3 aces but they are unstable.
4rd group Prime
Prime have 4 core players GooJila, Creator, ByuN and TerrOr their results will be like 2 wins 2 losses so if it is not 4-0 or 3-1 situation Prime has to relyon a player we never saw and I had seen their online results ( Chance, Splendid and Eins always lose in the 1st stages) and can say that they need something more then KHAN and CJ rookies to win a game.
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 19:37:48
December 13 2013 19:35 GMT
#18
No mention of Sniper in the MVP portion? joke power rank
On December 14 2013 04:19 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.

something i can agree with.

Yeah I feel like MVP is really being underestimated by a lot of people this season. Not typically a fan of them, but I keep seeing them near the bottom everywhere but they have a solid team that can definitely compete. I mean I guess at least he said 5-7 was basically all equal
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
December 13 2013 19:39 GMT
#19
On December 14 2013 04:35 Shellshock wrote:
No mention of Sniper in the MVP portion? joke power rank
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:19 StarStruck wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.

something i can agree with.

Yeah I feel like MVP is really being underestimated by a lot of people this season. Not typically a fan of them, but I keep seeing them near the bottom everywhere but they have a solid team that can definitely compete. I mean I guess at least he said 5-7 was basically all equal

I am very sad CJ is vice versa very overestimated which makes me worry a lot as they are my number 2 team after KHAN.
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
December 13 2013 19:40 GMT
#20
On December 14 2013 04:39 DiMano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:35 Shellshock wrote:
No mention of Sniper in the MVP portion? joke power rank
On December 14 2013 04:19 StarStruck wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.

something i can agree with.

Yeah I feel like MVP is really being underestimated by a lot of people this season. Not typically a fan of them, but I keep seeing them near the bottom everywhere but they have a solid team that can definitely compete. I mean I guess at least he said 5-7 was basically all equal

I am very sad CJ is vice versa very overestimated which makes me worry a lot as they are my number 2 team after KHAN.

Yeah I feel you there. Personally I'd like to have CJ as like a good #3 or something. They seem to have a lot of things going for them though. I agree with what you were saying about them being a dark horse type team.
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
December 13 2013 19:45 GMT
#21
At least it's clear who the prime candidate for ACE role is.
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
December 13 2013 20:00 GMT
#22
There's not too much difference among teams 4-7 imo. And apparently there are more free agent signings coming?
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 13 2013 20:00 GMT
#23
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
CJ was meant to be a dark horse (I mean like Atletico Madrid in Spain) who will win coz of well coached young players but when you expect too much from such thing it usually does not work.
You put Samsung with the same situation on 6 place and CJ on 1.
I have the following thoughts on this:
Both has young players who are good online BurNinG - SonGDuri, Bong, Trust - eMotion, Trend
Both has regular players: RorO - herO, Reality - EffOrt, Shine - Hydra
Both has a young championship calibre player: Solar - Sora
If Stork performs well then I say these teams are equal if not then CJ has a small advantage but not 5 places as written here.
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.



1) Samsung doesn't have coach park

2) Both Songduri and Bong have performed offline previously

3) You forgot about Bunny, Bbyong (another offline performer)

4) Burning, emotion, Solar, and Trend have barely any games against koreans in recent history! Turn and Reality, consistently play against Koreans and get dominated. Shine is pretty good, a lot better than Roro's performance at least, which is pitiful.... Compare that with Bunny, herO, Hydra, Bbyong, and Effort's recent results, along with Sora if you go back to October....

I guess I just don't see how you can compare a team that has been silent for basically the entire offseason except for rookie-ish players that are beating foreigners online to a team that has Coach Park and been performing at offline and online events, with a lot more players facing tougher opposition...
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
-niL
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1131 Posts
December 13 2013 20:27 GMT
#24
CJ huh
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
December 13 2013 20:35 GMT
#25
Your problem with putting CJ as first is that their super trio never wins at the same time. If one is on then the other two are off.

Secondly, should have put KT at #1 power rank. Give them that evil curse and burden to wear. It doesn't matter where you rank SKT. The humble kingdom will prevail.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
DiMano
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 20:47:04
December 13 2013 20:39 GMT
#26
On December 14 2013 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
CJ was meant to be a dark horse (I mean like Atletico Madrid in Spain) who will win coz of well coached young players but when you expect too much from such thing it usually does not work.
You put Samsung with the same situation on 6 place and CJ on 1.
I have the following thoughts on this:
Both has young players who are good online BurNinG - SonGDuri, Bong, Trust - eMotion, Trend
Both has regular players: RorO - herO, Reality - EffOrt, Shine - Hydra
Both has a young championship calibre player: Solar - Sora
If Stork performs well then I say these teams are equal if not then CJ has a small advantage but not 5 places as written here.
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.



1) Samsung doesn't have coach park

2) Both Songduri and Bong have performed offline previously

3) You forgot about Bunny, Bbyong (another offline performer)

4) Burning, emotion, Solar, and Trend have barely any games against koreans in recent history! Turn and Reality, consistently play against Koreans and get dominated. Shine is pretty good, a lot better than Roro's performance at least, which is pitiful.... Compare that with Bunny, herO, Hydra, Bbyong, and Effort's recent results, along with Sora if you go back to October....

I guess I just don't see how you can compare a team that has been silent for basically the entire offseason except for rookie-ish players that are beating foreigners online to a team that has Coach Park and been performing at offline and online events, with a lot more players facing tougher opposition...


If you go checking you will see that the only players that did well in qualifiries from CJ were Hydra and herO.
You are right that CJ rookies are more experienced offline but the ZOTAC and Go4SC2 Cup regular final appearances and results like eMotion 2-3 vs jjakji and Trend 3-0 vs Nerchio can not be denied. Symbol and HyuN started the same way good in online then good in team league then individual league.

1) Samsung doesn't have coach park. They have coach Choi from MVP I am not sure so if he coaches them or LoL team.

3) You forgot about Bunny, Bbyong (another offline performer) I did not mention kOp and TurN from KHAN's side.

"Turn and Reality, consistently play against Koreans and get dominated." Check before writting next time, Reality is in Code S.

"a lot more players facing tougher opposition" it is wrong they face same opponents where CJ rookies and KHAN ones showed comparable results.

I do not deny the fact that CJ is stronger on paper but the difference is very small.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
December 13 2013 20:51 GMT
#27
On December 14 2013 00:56 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 00:50 lichter wrote:
Bbyong is usually the worst player in Code S whenever he makes it

Whether that is impressive or weird, I dunno

Maybe it's impressive


Making Code S and sucking is more impressive than being awesome in Code A and still not cutting it


right because everyone remembers Virus.

good article. I don't know enough to disagree with anything.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 13 2013 21:41 GMT
#28
On December 14 2013 05:39 DiMano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 04:17 DiMano wrote:
CJ was meant to be a dark horse (I mean like Atletico Madrid in Spain) who will win coz of well coached young players but when you expect too much from such thing it usually does not work.
You put Samsung with the same situation on 6 place and CJ on 1.
I have the following thoughts on this:
Both has young players who are good online BurNinG - SonGDuri, Bong, Trust - eMotion, Trend
Both has regular players: RorO - herO, Reality - EffOrt, Shine - Hydra
Both has a young championship calibre player: Solar - Sora
If Stork performs well then I say these teams are equal if not then CJ has a small advantage but not 5 places as written here.
Also I would put MVP higher as their roster lineup seems better then IM and KT on paper.



1) Samsung doesn't have coach park

2) Both Songduri and Bong have performed offline previously

3) You forgot about Bunny, Bbyong (another offline performer)

4) Burning, emotion, Solar, and Trend have barely any games against koreans in recent history! Turn and Reality, consistently play against Koreans and get dominated. Shine is pretty good, a lot better than Roro's performance at least, which is pitiful.... Compare that with Bunny, herO, Hydra, Bbyong, and Effort's recent results, along with Sora if you go back to October....

I guess I just don't see how you can compare a team that has been silent for basically the entire offseason except for rookie-ish players that are beating foreigners online to a team that has Coach Park and been performing at offline and online events, with a lot more players facing tougher opposition...


If you go checking you will see that the only players that did well in qualifiries from CJ were Hydra and herO.
You are right that CJ rookies are more experienced offline but the ZOTAC and Go4SC2 Cup regular final appearances and results like eMotion 2-3 vs jjakji and Trend 3-0 vs Nerchio can not be denied. Symbol and HyuN started the same way good in online then good in team league then individual league.

1) Samsung doesn't have coach park. They have coach Choi from MVP I am not sure so if he coaches them or LoL team.

3) You forgot about Bunny, Bbyong (another offline performer) I did not mention kOp and TurN from KHAN's side.

"Turn and Reality, consistently play against Koreans and get dominated." Check before writting next time, Reality is in Code S.

"a lot more players facing tougher opposition" it is wrong they face same opponents where CJ rookies and KHAN ones showed comparable results.

I do not deny the fact that CJ is stronger on paper but the difference is very small.


IDK about Choi so I can't reallly refute you there but I'm sorry, I can't let this go because it's not just a small difference or comparable results. KoP's biggest wins in the last 3 months: 2-0 Terminator, 2-1 Harrier.Turn's biggest win in the last three months: 2-0 TheStC - he lost 0-2 to both qxc and strelok for crying out loud. Reality is 4-8 in the last three months, with a 2-1 over pigbaby and 2-0 over bang as his only wins, while losing to VINES, Tassadar, Trust, and Paralyze.

Compare to Bunny, who, at Singapore, 2-0'd Flash, Action, Fantasy, and Squirtle. Trust 2-0'd Curious, Lucky, and Check in RBBG qualifiers and 2-0'd Reality at IEM. Sora has been slightly inconsistent but still managed to 3-1 Parting at WCG as well as going through Bong, Impact, Bbyong, Heart, and Curious in the RBBG qualifiers.

*sigh* just go compare the match histories on aligulac and see if that changes your mind at all. If it doesn't... idk what to tell you. Suffice to say the difference is not 'very small'.
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
December 13 2013 21:55 GMT
#29
Forgot to mention Coca when talking about JinAir.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 13 2013 21:56 GMT
#30
On December 14 2013 04:35 Shellshock wrote:
No mention of Sniper in the MVP portion? joke power rank


That's the joke.

Regarding ranks 5-7, you can switch them around however you like. I can't tell them apart with any kind of confidence, and only put MVP in #7 because I feel like the inconsistency their players have suffered from for ages will hurt them more in Proleague (format) than it did in GSTL where all you really needed was one red-hot player on any given day.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Fionn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States23455 Posts
December 13 2013 22:29 GMT
#31
will monsters be unleashed?
Writerhttps://twitter.com/FionnOnFire
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 13 2013 22:33 GMT
#32
On December 14 2013 07:29 Fionn wrote:
will monsters be unleashed?


The monster has been caged for now, though I suppose TL-IM would be a nice stand-in monster.
AdministratorBreak the chains
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 13 2013 22:48 GMT
#33
I thought they were playing the EG role. *throws hands up in the air*
Kasaraki
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Denmark7115 Posts
December 13 2013 23:10 GMT
#34
Haha, this is 100% identical to how I rate the teams in my mind. Good job! Enjoyed reading it a lot.
tili
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1332 Posts
December 13 2013 23:25 GMT
#35
On December 14 2013 02:16 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 01:09 tili wrote:
Again. Someone. Please make Zealously a featured blogger.

[image loading]



Booooom!!! I' so happy!

People should also check out this blog from a week ago ^^

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=437415
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-13 23:52:18
December 13 2013 23:47 GMT
#36
On December 14 2013 03:39 StarStruck wrote:
I think you underrate MVP and overrate IM (I think their current line-up is worse than what EG-TL originally sent out) and ohgloriousleadertowinCJPL? Please. They aren't even close to number one.

EG-TL had no where to go but up after that Round, so save the ohgoloriousleadertalk.


The fuck is with this talk? Do people forget that the last time IM played in a team league they won? They also beat MVP in the finals. IM has the same Protoss lineup as when they won GSTL plus Liquid Hero, they lost Losira but trading Losira for Hero is an improvement since Hero has a lot of Proleague experience and he's Protoss.

Squirtle, First, Yonghwa, Hero, that's a good protoss lineup and we all know Protoss dominate PL.

No player on MVP won a tournament in 2013, all they have going for them is team league performance and they couldn't even win at that. That team is washed up. Not as washed up as KT Rolster, but pretty washed up.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 00:05 GMT
#37
oh also we have Trap
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 14 2013 00:06 GMT
#38
God damnit Trap I'm not bumping IM to third place again

let's hope Jin Air signs Dear so I can justify still having them at #3
AdministratorBreak the chains
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
December 14 2013 01:05 GMT
#39
On December 14 2013 09:06 Zealously wrote:
God damnit Trap I'm not bumping IM to third place again

let's hope Jin Air signs Dear so I can justify still having them at #3

Bump it to first place then. IM has this ezpz.
Get off my lawn, young punks
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2013 01:29 GMT
#40
On December 14 2013 08:47 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 03:39 StarStruck wrote:
I think you underrate MVP and overrate IM (I think their current line-up is worse than what EG-TL originally sent out) and ohgloriousleadertowinCJPL? Please. They aren't even close to number one.

EG-TL had no where to go but up after that Round, so save the ohgoloriousleadertalk.


The fuck is with this talk? Do people forget that the last time IM played in a team league they won? They also beat MVP in the finals. IM has the same Protoss lineup as when they won GSTL plus Liquid Hero, they lost Losira but trading Losira for Hero is an improvement since Hero has a lot of Proleague experience and he's Protoss.

Squirtle, First, Yonghwa, Hero, that's a good protoss lineup and we all know Protoss dominate PL.

No player on MVP won a tournament in 2013, all they have going for them is team league performance and they couldn't even win at that. That team is washed up. Not as washed up as KT Rolster, but pretty washed up.


My comments were before they added Trap and the team is overrated. Then you have guys like Nestea and MVP who are close to being done.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 01:46 GMT
#41
On December 14 2013 10:29 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 08:47 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:39 StarStruck wrote:
I think you underrate MVP and overrate IM (I think their current line-up is worse than what EG-TL originally sent out) and ohgloriousleadertowinCJPL? Please. They aren't even close to number one.

EG-TL had no where to go but up after that Round, so save the ohgoloriousleadertalk.


The fuck is with this talk? Do people forget that the last time IM played in a team league they won? They also beat MVP in the finals. IM has the same Protoss lineup as when they won GSTL plus Liquid Hero, they lost Losira but trading Losira for Hero is an improvement since Hero has a lot of Proleague experience and he's Protoss.

Squirtle, First, Yonghwa, Hero, that's a good protoss lineup and we all know Protoss dominate PL.

No player on MVP won a tournament in 2013, all they have going for them is team league performance and they couldn't even win at that. That team is washed up. Not as washed up as KT Rolster, but pretty washed up.


My comments were before they added Trap and the team is overrated. Then you have guys like Nestea and MVP who are close to being done.


You're completely ignoring all the other players on the team that helped them win GSTL, they do just fine without nestea or mvp.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 01:52:35
December 14 2013 01:52 GMT
#42
no, i'm not because 1) they never competed in the PL just like EG so the GSTL is small talk and 2) their players haven't shown any consistency in a very long time. Look, this is coming from a guy who really liked IM back in the day, heck I even chose almost all IM players when I picked a fantasy team for the GSTL. The Golden Days are over, but Trap and HerO can definitely help while they explore the uncharted waters. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 02:07:46
December 14 2013 02:06 GMT
#43
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
December 14 2013 02:19 GMT
#44
dodgin is so fucking mad
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 02:20 GMT
#45
i hate it when people are wrong on the internet
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 02:37:56
December 14 2013 02:37 GMT
#46
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely

huh?
incredibly biased? me? the guy who is incredibly unbiased? GSTL is very small in comparison to the PL format. It's marathon and you need to find consistency. If anything MVP losing to IM lowers the expectations put on them because they have nothing to lose, which makes them incredibly dangerous. Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups? I don't think so.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 02:39:57
December 14 2013 02:38 GMT
#47
On December 14 2013 11:20 Dodgin wrote:
i hate it when people are wrong on the internet


just watch and see what happens. enough of the hypotheticals.
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 02:44:29
December 14 2013 02:42 GMT
#48
It is a crime what you just did to MVP sir. Prepare to be surprised. I like the CJ placement though.

Also I think IM can challenge SKT and Jin Air with their protoss lineup along with Yoda and Byul bringing them through. Yonghwa is a teamleague god.
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 02:43 GMT
#49
MVP losing to IM makes them incredibly dangerous? this logic hurts my brain, how do they have less to lose than the other teams? If anything considering their poor performance this year the pressure should be on them to do well, where as IM has already done well in 2013. In reality the pressure is on for all of the teams though, considering the top two of the previous season are gone.

Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups?

Why would you leave their best Protoss out of the list? You clearly don't know jack shit about IM. And yes First, Yonghwa/Squitle/HerO is just as good as other teams' Protoss lineups.

I'm still waiting on you to answer how MVP is possibly ranked higher when none of their players did well in WCS this year AND they didn't do as well as IM in team leagues this year.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 14 2013 02:52 GMT
#50
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
jubil
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2602 Posts
December 14 2013 03:20 GMT
#51
Looks like CJ is the Woongjin of this season: no super-aces, just a crazy deep bench.
Marineking-Polt-Maru-Fantasy-Solar-Xenocider-Suppy fighting!
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 03:25:46
December 14 2013 03:24 GMT
#52
On December 14 2013 11:43 Dodgin wrote:
MVP losing to IM makes them incredibly dangerous? this logic hurts my brain, how do they have less to lose than the other teams? If anything considering their poor performance this year the pressure should be on them to do well, where as IM has already done well in 2013. In reality the pressure is on for all of the teams though, considering the top two of the previous season are gone.

Show nested quote +
Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups?

Why would you leave their best Protoss out of the list? You clearly don't know jack shit about IM. And yes First, Yonghwa/Squitle/HerO is just as good as other teams' Protoss lineups.

I'm still waiting on you to answer how MVP is possibly ranked higher when none of their players did well in WCS this year AND they didn't do as well as IM in team leagues this year.


Waiting on what? I just told you. When the expectations are incredibly low there is no where to go but up and that is why MVP is dangerous. As for IM (and try to remain unbiased because everyone knows you are a big IM fanboy). Would you agree or disagree that 2013 has been one of their worst individual years. Yes, they had their Koreans competing in every single WCS qualifier they could get their hands on unlike a lot of other Korean teams, so surely a few would get by right? This is not the dominant IM we've known when eSF teams were introduced and yes I did fail to mention First but I'm sort of multitasking atm. I'm playing two pcs in vindictus raids while writing so my bad. (Taking a second from raiding to make sure I discuss what I want this time).

Now going back to the idea of expectations.

Which team had the highest expectations last season w/o seeing a day in PL? EG, easy money right? Which two teams had relatively low expectations and cleaned up in the regular season and met in the finals last time? STX and Stars. Oh my. How many people saw that coming? Not very many. I wouldn't consider myself a big fan of any of the players on MVP, but I can some diamonds in the rough. I don't see how I can be biased. I'm going on a hunch here and if I were a betting man, which I am. Out of the eSF teams I think MVP have everything to gain this season because they have nothing to lose.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 14 2013 03:24 GMT
#53
On December 14 2013 12:20 jubil wrote:
Looks like CJ is the Woongjin of this season: no super-aces, just a crazy deep bench.


Post-DH Winter, CJ hero has only dropped a single match to Parting (44-14 overall)
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 03:31 GMT
#54
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 03:36:50
December 14 2013 03:32 GMT
#55
On December 14 2013 12:24 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 11:43 Dodgin wrote:
MVP losing to IM makes them incredibly dangerous? this logic hurts my brain, how do they have less to lose than the other teams? If anything considering their poor performance this year the pressure should be on them to do well, where as IM has already done well in 2013. In reality the pressure is on for all of the teams though, considering the top two of the previous season are gone.

Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups?

Why would you leave their best Protoss out of the list? You clearly don't know jack shit about IM. And yes First, Yonghwa/Squitle/HerO is just as good as other teams' Protoss lineups.

I'm still waiting on you to answer how MVP is possibly ranked higher when none of their players did well in WCS this year AND they didn't do as well as IM in team leagues this year.


Waiting on what? I just told you. When the expectations are incredibly low there is no where to go but up and that is why MVP is dangerous. As for IM (and try to remain unbiased because everyone knows you are a big IM fanboy). Would you agree or disagree that 2013 has been one of their worst individual years. Yes, they had their Koreans competing in every single WCS qualifier they could get their hands on unlike a lot of other Korean teams, so surely a few would get by right? This is not the dominant IM we've known when eSF teams were introduced and yes I did fail to mention First but I'm sort of multitasking atm. I'm playing two pcs in vindictus raids while writing so my bad. (Taking a second from raiding to make sure I discuss what I want this time).

Now going back to the idea of expectations.

Which team had the highest expectations last season w/o seeing a day in PL? EG, easy money right? Which two teams had relatively low expectations and cleaned up in the regular season and met in the finals last time? STX and Stars. Oh my. How many people saw that coming? Not very many. I wouldn't consider myself a big fan of any of the players on MVP, but I can some diamonds in the rough. I don't see how I can be biased. I'm going on a hunch here and if I were a betting man, which I am. Out of the eSF teams I think MVP have everything to gain this season because they have nothing to lose.


" one of the worst " individual years? There's really only 3 years to compare, so one of the worst is only worse than 2011 which no team will ever live up to again. I think they did better than they did in 2012 as a whole. Even though Mvp's performance wasn't as good as it was in 2012 the rest of the team stepped up to fill those shoes.

Luckily there's a great Liquipedia article that is quite useful for this debate

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments_Medalists/TeamYearly

2013 - 1st 3, 2nd 1, 3rd 1, Semi Final 4, total 9

2012 - 1st 3, 2nd 3, 3rd 2, Semi Final 1, total 9

It's about equal, then consider that IM won the HotS pre season and first GSTL season, so I would say 2013 has been slightly more successful for them than 2012.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
December 14 2013 03:35 GMT
#56
IM is a bunch of overrated old people. Why is there arguing? If anything #4 seed was too generous.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2013 03:41 GMT
#57
On December 14 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 12:24 StarStruck wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:43 Dodgin wrote:
MVP losing to IM makes them incredibly dangerous? this logic hurts my brain, how do they have less to lose than the other teams? If anything considering their poor performance this year the pressure should be on them to do well, where as IM has already done well in 2013. In reality the pressure is on for all of the teams though, considering the top two of the previous season are gone.

Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups?

Why would you leave their best Protoss out of the list? You clearly don't know jack shit about IM. And yes First, Yonghwa/Squitle/HerO is just as good as other teams' Protoss lineups.

I'm still waiting on you to answer how MVP is possibly ranked higher when none of their players did well in WCS this year AND they didn't do as well as IM in team leagues this year.


Waiting on what? I just told you. When the expectations are incredibly low there is no where to go but up and that is why MVP is dangerous. As for IM (and try to remain unbiased because everyone knows you are a big IM fanboy). Would you agree or disagree that 2013 has been one of their worst individual years. Yes, they had their Koreans competing in every single WCS qualifier they could get their hands on unlike a lot of other Korean teams, so surely a few would get by right? This is not the dominant IM we've known when eSF teams were introduced and yes I did fail to mention First but I'm sort of multitasking atm. I'm playing two pcs in vindictus raids while writing so my bad. (Taking a second from raiding to make sure I discuss what I want this time).

Now going back to the idea of expectations.

Which team had the highest expectations last season w/o seeing a day in PL? EG, easy money right? Which two teams had relatively low expectations and cleaned up in the regular season and met in the finals last time? STX and Stars. Oh my. How many people saw that coming? Not very many. I wouldn't consider myself a big fan of any of the players on MVP, but I can some diamonds in the rough. I don't see how I can be biased. I'm going on a hunch here and if I were a betting man, which I am. Out of the eSF teams I think MVP have everything to gain this season because they have nothing to lose.


" one of the worst " individual years? There's really only 3 years to compare, so one of the worst is only worse than 2011 which no team will ever live up to again. I think they did better than they did in 2012 as a whole. Even though Mvp's performance wasn't as good as it was in 2012 the rest of the team stepped up to fill those shoes.


I'm not trying to say they're supposed to win everything they enter man like 2011 and ofc the timeframe is short. It has been a very mellow year for me in terms of my IM fanboyism and I just don't like the WCS system as a whole. >_<
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 03:45:24
December 14 2013 03:42 GMT
#58
On December 14 2013 12:32 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 12:24 StarStruck wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:43 Dodgin wrote:
MVP losing to IM makes them incredibly dangerous? this logic hurts my brain, how do they have less to lose than the other teams? If anything considering their poor performance this year the pressure should be on them to do well, where as IM has already done well in 2013. In reality the pressure is on for all of the teams though, considering the top two of the previous season are gone.

Do you honestly believe Yonghwa, Squirtle and HerO prior to the annoncement of Trap is more favorable than a lot of the other team's Protoss line-ups?

Why would you leave their best Protoss out of the list? You clearly don't know jack shit about IM. And yes First, Yonghwa/Squitle/HerO is just as good as other teams' Protoss lineups.

I'm still waiting on you to answer how MVP is possibly ranked higher when none of their players did well in WCS this year AND they didn't do as well as IM in team leagues this year.


Waiting on what? I just told you. When the expectations are incredibly low there is no where to go but up and that is why MVP is dangerous. As for IM (and try to remain unbiased because everyone knows you are a big IM fanboy). Would you agree or disagree that 2013 has been one of their worst individual years. Yes, they had their Koreans competing in every single WCS qualifier they could get their hands on unlike a lot of other Korean teams, so surely a few would get by right? This is not the dominant IM we've known when eSF teams were introduced and yes I did fail to mention First but I'm sort of multitasking atm. I'm playing two pcs in vindictus raids while writing so my bad. (Taking a second from raiding to make sure I discuss what I want this time).

Now going back to the idea of expectations.

Which team had the highest expectations last season w/o seeing a day in PL? EG, easy money right? Which two teams had relatively low expectations and cleaned up in the regular season and met in the finals last time? STX and Stars. Oh my. How many people saw that coming? Not very many. I wouldn't consider myself a big fan of any of the players on MVP, but I can some diamonds in the rough. I don't see how I can be biased. I'm going on a hunch here and if I were a betting man, which I am. Out of the eSF teams I think MVP have everything to gain this season because they have nothing to lose.


" one of the worst " individual years? There's really only 3 years to compare, so one of the worst is only worse than 2011 which no team will ever live up to again. I think they did better than they did in 2012 as a whole. Even though Mvp's performance wasn't as good as it was in 2012 the rest of the team stepped up to fill those shoes.

Luckily there's a great Liquipedia article that is quite useful for this debate

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments_Medalists/TeamYearly

2013 - 1st 3, 2nd 1, 3rd 1, Semi Final 4, total 9

2012 - 1st 3, 2nd 3, 3rd 2, Semi Final 1, total 9

It's about equal, then consider that IM won the HotS pre season and first GSTL season, so I would say 2013 has been slightly more successful for them than 2012.


Not the Premier Tournament debate again and IEMS grrrrr. raid is starting btw. ;/
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 14 2013 04:00 GMT
#59
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
December 14 2013 04:01 GMT
#60
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.


You're clearly not paying enough attention, as it was announced the format is bo5 with no ace match for this season.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2013 04:06 GMT
#61
On December 14 2013 13:01 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.


You're clearly not paying enough attention, as it was announced the format is bo5 with no ace match for this season.


That is all very true and it was just announced today.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 04:09:23
December 14 2013 04:08 GMT
#62
On December 14 2013 13:01 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.


You're clearly not paying enough attention, as it was announced the format is bo5 with no ace match for this season.


Ah, my mistake then. I guess I retract all my previous statements - they went back to the dumb format from before the hybrid league.

*cries*

on the other hand, CJ will be even better now because they can just play HESH+1
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 14 2013 04:11 GMT
#63
On December 14 2013 13:08 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 13:01 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.


You're clearly not paying enough attention, as it was announced the format is bo5 with no ace match for this season.


Ah, my mistake then. I guess I retract all my previous statements - they went back to the dumb format from before the hybrid league.

*cries*

on the other hand, CJ will be even better now because they can just play HESH+1


ha ha ha. Yeah, it's a little better for teams that are a little thin and it's only four rounds, meh. Not much you can do about it. It will be hard for the middle of the pack regardless.
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
December 14 2013 04:29 GMT
#64
How dare you forget about CoCa... >: (
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
Gorlin
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2753 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 04:29:52
December 14 2013 04:29 GMT
#65
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.

You say "just 8 players" as if any other team has 8 reliable players to play. 8 players is plenty when the format is Bo5. Shit, teams would be happy to have 8 go-to-guys in a Bo7 format.
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-14 05:09:52
December 14 2013 04:52 GMT
#66
Samsung not in last place for having RorO? I'm shocked Zealously.

MVP should totally be higher.

Gaining Trap should bump IM back to #3

On December 14 2013 12:35 BisuDagger wrote:
IM is a bunch of overrated old people. Why is there arguing? If anything #4 seed was too generous.


pfft, by season's end your pitiful SKT kingdom will look worse than Bisu's play.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
FlyingSteaks
Profile Joined April 2012
Brazil433 Posts
December 14 2013 06:27 GMT
#67
Last season I thought STX was underrated and they won, now it's time for CJ Entus! BTW isn't CoCa in Jin Air?
goody153
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
44119 Posts
December 14 2013 07:23 GMT
#68
Prime have gone from kind of fucked to completely screwed

hahaha i love this line.

and about CJ being #1 and SKT following them. Here it is

"Zealously you're drunk, go home!". Obligatory you are drunk statement.

Nice writeup as always.
this is a quote
Kasaraki
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Denmark7115 Posts
December 14 2013 11:13 GMT
#69
I'm not sure how much room there really is to be overrated in 4th place. :p On paper the team is easily better than the ones in 5-8th place, having both individual and teamleague results that are better than those teams. Their only real problem is never having participated in proleague before. You can argue about the results of IM all you want, maybe the players are inconsistent, and relying on hot streaks, but at least they've done things unlike everyone below them.

But it's all moot anyways, this is still IM in a teamleague. They'll find a way to mess up. Weird lineups and wrong ace calls incoming!
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
December 14 2013 15:37 GMT
#70
GOGO SAMSUNG MILKY WAY.

I'm really stoked to see iloveoov's head coaching ability though. :O
kiss kiss fall in love
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
December 14 2013 17:15 GMT
#71
The Bo5 format means that CJ will receive a huge boost this season, regardless of other factors. The fact that they have 3 roughly equally-great players synergizes spectacularly well with Bo5.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Greenei
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1754 Posts
December 15 2013 05:47 GMT
#72
I'd say CJ on #2, SKT#1 and MVP somewhat higher. Would you really bet money on this? I mean SKT < CJ? Mehhhh.
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
Kasaraki
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Denmark7115 Posts
December 15 2013 20:42 GMT
#73
Top 4 in this ranking is top 4 in pre-season tournament. Dat Zealously advantage.
Ammanas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Slovakia2166 Posts
December 16 2013 04:09 GMT
#74
heh, I didn't even notice there is almost the same blog already out there before I've written mine.

Shortly:
SKT>CJ>JAGWings>KT>IM>MVP>KHAN>Prime
Reasoning can be found in my blog, it's too long :>


Anyway, now a question:

On December 14 2013 13:01 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2013 13:00 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 12:31 Dodgin wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:52 GTPGlitch wrote:
On December 14 2013 11:06 Dodgin wrote:
complete bullshit, IM had a player in the top 4 of the season finals twice, in s1 and s2, and a top 8 in the s3 finals. Byul took 2nd in WCS AM s3 then top 8 in the season 3 finals, First took top 5 in WCS KR S2 then top 4 in the season 2 finals. In season 1 Mvp took 1st in WCS EU then top 4 in the season finals. IM has had a player do well in every WCS season, how is that not consistency?

GSTL isn't small talk unless you're an elitist prick, the season they won was fairly competitive. you originally said MVP is better, better how? MVP lost to IM in GSTL and none of their current players performed well this year at all. Most of their players' best finish was the ro32 of WCS. Dream and DRG took 2nd in WOL tournaments at the beginning of the year and haven't done much of anything since then.

Regarding the actual roster, you can never discount Yonghwa in a team league, Squirtle carried them in GSTL and he might be able to do it again. First is a god. Trap and Hero are obviously great for PL with their experience and past records. Mvp and Yoda won tournaments in HotS so they have potential to do well, and Byul is straight up solid and good. The team will likely be carried by the Protoss side but that works out just fine in the PL format. Also can't forget Ruin who showed potential to be good earlier this year.

tl;dr you're either incredibly biased or don't actually follow this scene closely


Whoa there, cowboy. I'm not starstruck but i'll address some of this because I feel pretty much the same way he does - IM has a chance to do good, but it's gonna be a bit rough for them.

Having three different players perform well in three different seasons isn't consistency, it's streakiness. MVP has been on a downward slope since his WCS EU win, First is still being dragged down by PvZ. Can't really say anything bad about ByuL except that his ZvP looks a little suspect looking at his recent games, but the only real standout loss is 0-2 to Arthur.

Besides that, IM is suffering from the same problem that EGTL had, except worse IMO. They are hugely limited in the players that they can/will actually field. Hero, ByuL, Trap, First, Squirtle, Yonghwa, Yoda, and maybe MVP are play-worthy at this point in time. That problem is compounded by the fact that of those eight, five are protoss. While PvProleague will be a solid environment for First at least, it makes it almost ridiculously easy to tell your lineup to practice exclusively vP, since odds are there will be enough protoss played to either win or take it to ace in IM's standard lineup.

Also, I'm curious how you think IM's GSTL win really means much of anything when you compare it to proleague. They came up short against MVP, AxA, and Startale in the group stage and barely beat a supernova-less Azubu, while beating NSHoseo, FXO (who has done great since the HoTS switch /s), and Prime before Maru was a god. They got A-K's from Yoda and Yonghwa to advance to the finals against MVP, who you call out as having a pretty bad year and then beat, and assume that means they'll do godly in PL.... IM is a team that has a number of players that go on hotstreaks and then cool down, and said hotstreaks never seem to coordinate very well. This is not a very good way to ensure you'll win proleague (shocker)


I'm not going to waste my time replying to this entire post, but you really don't think having 8 players that are good enough to send it enough for a bo5 format? come on now. There are tons of PL teams that could never field a solid 5 player team where you didn't look at one player and thought they were a weak link.


Uh, you mean the Bo6+ace format? Where IM will have to max out on protoss players or end up with a weaker-than-possible lineup? c'mon, someone might think you're incredibly biased or don't pay enough attention to the scene.

Besides that my point is that it's really just 8 players that are even playable in PL, six who have put up strong recent results and two (MVP, Yoda), who are looking a little bit sketchy.


You're clearly not paying enough attention, as it was announced the format is bo5 with no ace match for this season.


Is the 'no ace' part confirmed? Because in the TL Post it says

matches being Bo5 in Proleague style.


which I understand as the same as last year, just Bo5 instead of Bo7 (meaning predetermined 4v4 with 5th game being ace match if needed).
I tried asking in the announcement thread, but nobody knew/the ones who knew didn't notice. Hope it's not the case, cause without the ace match a) less hype b) my Power Rank would suck :D
JangBi forever <3 || Classic! herO! Rain! Zest! | Rogue! Hydra! Solar! | Fantasy! Cure! Reality! Sorry! Journey!
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 16 2013 06:42 GMT
#75
There will be an ace match.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-16 09:29:23
December 16 2013 09:28 GMT
#76
Bold and interesting ranking. Lets hope Sora's the next bonjwa.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-16 09:32:00
December 16 2013 09:28 GMT
#77
I agree with the ranking, though I know KT will finish top-3. I wish they wouldn´t, but they will, probably leaving Jin Air behind.

Let the PvProleague begin!
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 16 2013 12:59 GMT
#78
Pre-season 2 ez
AdministratorBreak the chains
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
December 16 2013 14:50 GMT
#79
On December 16 2013 21:59 Zealously wrote:
Pre-season 2 ez

Jin Air and SKT should've been flipped. Joke power rank.
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Ammanas
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Slovakia2166 Posts
December 16 2013 14:53 GMT
#80
I just think, that SKT will be stronger in the play offs after every round. If there would be ONLY the standard Bo5 format, CJ could be kinda stronger then SKT. But in the Bo7 all kill format, that will be there after every round, the deepness of SKT (and IM to a lesser extent) will probably reign supreme. And considering the teams will only get points for rankings AFTER the playoffs.... Well, we will see soon
JangBi forever <3 || Classic! herO! Rain! Zest! | Rogue! Hydra! Solar! | Fantasy! Cure! Reality! Sorry! Journey!
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
December 16 2013 18:35 GMT
#81
On December 16 2013 23:50 Darkhoarse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2013 21:59 Zealously wrote:
Pre-season 2 ez

Jin Air and SKT should've been flipped. Joke power rank.


Hey at least #1 didn't end up #8
AdministratorBreak the chains
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
December 16 2013 18:39 GMT
#82
wow those shots fired. guess you should have been on the writing staff last season
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
Proseat
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Germany5113 Posts
December 16 2013 19:02 GMT
#83
Go Liquid mercenary!
The Rise and Fall of SlayerS -- a timeline: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=378097
Fuell
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands3111 Posts
January 08 2014 16:45 GMT
#84
CJ is the new eg tl

Is it Coach Park or the Power Rank curse?
fOu/Zenith/NEX/WeRRa/SlayerS
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
January 08 2014 17:35 GMT
#85
They'll bounce back don't worry
AdministratorBreak the chains
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
January 09 2014 01:29 GMT
#86
I guess they are going to be the first team to lose to Prime now
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
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