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I decided to re-post this in Blogs after it was closed in General, I guess people have had enough of that forum filling up with stuff that doesn't shine well on the game which is understandable.
I was dissapointed by GSL in the recent RO32, for the first time in awhile. I guess I'm biased as although I like all the matchups I like the T matchups the most as I am constantly taking note of builds, strategies etc.
A dark power has found its way back into the world............
Some of you will remember the so-called "dark days" of TvP from that reigned in this period of 2011. Marine-Tank-Banshee became the build to beat for a long period of time, the Sad Zealot club was formed, MC fell out of GSL etc. etc.
The world begged Blizzard to fix something in the match-up to stop Terran and we had a stable meta-game for awhile that revolved around cheese, greed, multitasking, and the dance of death between ghosts/vikings/bio and templar/colossi/gateway.
It was always so great to watch a good Terran rip a Protoss apart with amazing micro, watching them win engagements through feats of strength and dexterity, situations where oneself would just get surrounded and rolled by a giant Protoss army just to prove how important that top-level control is. There was the Void Rays of HongUn, godly blink micro, Parting's templar traps and his nearly constant revolutions to the match up. We had Squirtle/MVP and the hour long Byun/HerO war on the planet of Daybreak.
Now we come to 2013 and that bright star has been drenched with the scent of decay.
TvP has been devolving step-by-step since the release of HOTS.
We had the abject failure of introducing the Factory to the match-up, despite Blizzard throwing the kitchen sink at it. Mines have a never-used + to shields, because they serve no value against a Protoss army that out-ranges it. Tanks and thors dissapear to Immortals still, and things only get worse for Mech with the addition of the Tempest, a unit which although rarely sees professional play, its existence alone is a strong deterrent to Mech with the way in can chop down a siege line with no losses. For me making mech "viable" isn't possible without removing key Protoss units so let's just forget about this for now, using it only as proof of devolution, otherwise I will just spend the next chunk of my post on how I think it should be made viable(which doesn't really matter).
Next we had the return of the "1base" that came with HOTS new units. Previously TvP was pretty well established in terms of meta-game(some would even say stagnant but i disagree) however with all the new options we had a new baseline to set-up the match-up. Cheeses were prevalent on both sides and the match-up seemed vibrant despite the afore-mentioned failure of Mech strategies. New builds were written and the dark smell on the air was attributed to a fast-passing cloud of doubt and negativity. I tried to remain positive.
And then I just opened my eyes.
For the past three months nearly every important TvP has been decided by an SCV pull timing. Trying to recall from personal memory I feel very confident to say that probably every Terran in the RO32 of WCSKR and possibly Challenger league has at one time or the other decided a professional match by dumping their SCVS into the other guys army as if it's the second coming of bit by bit.
I find myself questioning why. Is it because toss splash is OP and terrans feel the effort required to win by wittling down bases and army is no longer possible due to the mothership core and the power of the protoss deathball? Is it because terran is OP due to it's high stim single-target DPS and healing mean that when a Terran pulls his SCV's in the right situation he can never lose, and that we are merely seeing the emergence of a style that relies on perfect understanding of game-state in order to execute this with razer-sharp precision? Or Is it because Protosses have been simply out-meta'ing(excuse my personal dictionary) their Terran opponents, getting great leads out of the early-mid game that the Terran is left with no option but to go over the top for glory?
My personal feeling is that TvP is in a state where the pro Korean Terrans are looking at the situation and becoming frustrated, perhaps not because the other race is "OP" per say, but merely balanced in a fashion that forces a extremely high APM playstyle from Terran to have a chance. It is a scathing review of the matchup that players are resorting to this kind of desperation tactic in the highest levels of the tournament scene to claim victory.
This last RO32 was pathetic in the sense I have described; most TvP decided by early all-ins or by SCV pull timing. I hope there are others out there like me who feel it has lost it's "novelty" factor. When MVP did it it was brilliant, unexpected play, nowadays it just feels like a cheap standard.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I basically stopped playing SC2 because of Toss splash so I guess I agree.
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There is also a Designated Balance Discussion thread where you can post your opinion about this sort of thing.
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United States4883 Posts
Okay okay, so let's talk about TvP:
HotS TvP, although it somewhat resembles WoL TvP, is completely different. The timings are different, build orders are totally different, and there are a much huger variety of builds. It has a completely different feel to it.
When 1-base all-ins/1.5-base all-ins and early drops (for terran) started coming in, the game became exponentially more interesting. While a lot of the Protoss all-ins are the same, the addition of the MsC makes these all-ins more powerful and requires a stronger response. Meanwhile, early drop plays (mine drops, hellion drops, marine/mine drops w/ hellions, etc., etc.) have also forced Protoss players to be careful going into the midgame and come up with solutions to holding.
Ghost/viking is a POWERFUL army. Professional terran players have been going for these compositions recently and slowing down the marauder production early. See Taeja vs. Rain (S2 Finals) to see how strong terran lategame pressure can be. That said, I don't think terran players are weak at all in the lategame and don't need to RELY on SCV pulls. I think SCV pulls are just being discovered as very powerful timings. See Bomber vs. Super (GSL S3) to see how SCV pulls still lose to players preparing correctly.
Overall, I think you're way over-reacting. We're seeing a period where a certain easy timing is seemingly unstoppable, but will eventually get solved (think of the "stephano roach max" in ZvP). We've seen a lot of interesting stylistic changes (including marauder/hellbat) and plenty of variance in the games since the release of HotS. The SCV pull is just a current trend.
As for mech. Well, mech is just not going to work, that's been obvious (although, I'm going to say that I think TvP mech is more likely than TvZ mech now). While it sucks that terran players are stuck going MMM/GV, we've still seen quite a bit of variance compared to WoL and the matchup is definitely getting better.
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United States4883 Posts
See Ryung vs. ToD in DH Bucharest. Macro TvP.
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I would say the ability for protoss to get 3/3 before terran is what I despise most about the matchup presently. Splash isn't an issue if you have good micro, but if Protoss get their 3 base 200/200 3/3 army, you'll probably only have 2/2 and the fight then is not even close the deathball just murders everything in its path with minimal effort from protoss.
The prevalence of 1 gate FE into robo/forge is why we're seeing so much scv pulling right now. Thanks to the MSC it's really easy to protect this on 2 base and then it's just a matter of taking your 3rd at about 11-13 minutes and assembling the unstoppable army. Because Protoss can get 3/3 faster and safer then before and considering all terran has going for them is faster medivacs, it's not so surprising to see us all in more often.
Plus Bomber won WCS recently with heavy scv pull usage and people who win tournaments tends to have their strategies copied.
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If you were to do some sort of analysis of positional movement (by looking at the minimap), I think that TvP would score fairly badly. Somehow HotS seems to have made the match-up more boring and it's not like the new units have a chance to spice things up as you rarely see them used -- outside of the mothership core's photon overcharge, which just enables more defensive play. I think one of the reasons that the medivac's ignite afterburners seems acceptable to people is because protoss doesn't really need to move out on the map anyway, so it never has a chance to be properly exploited, even if it's obviously broken. Now that ZvP is a bit more diverse TvP has clearly become the worst non-mirror for me, it really exemplifies 'boring macro deathball play', as some characterize the game.
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Ryung vs Tod was kinda neat, but ToD wasn't playing the upgrade focused style that I was referring to. He was aiming to just comfortably assemble a deathball and win off a simple push but I liked how ryung was able to keep him back through really good movement and fight taking until he could get his viking ghost online. He also had an interesting second starport timing, so I wonder if he got it to keep the option for an scv pull open or if the few extra vikings are part of his plan to keep the Protoss back for the 10 minutes or so it requires to get 4 bases and 3/3.
Still kinda neat though.
I would disagree with you Grumbels. Movement is actually hugely important in a lot of TvP's, Top KR terrans spend a lot of time looking for gaps in their opponents defences, trying to deny vision through scanning observers and slipping through drops where they can. They're very good in this respect. SCV pulling is often a response to a Protoss who is trying to get away with more eco or upgrades then the Terran feels they can handle.
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I also am also starting to hate PvT, but from the protoss perspective. I realize once archon/colossus/ht are out it seems like protoss are just "a-moving" (believe me, they aren't) to wins. But I'll even concede that the late game is easier for protoss (both in terms of engagements, and rebuilding an army).
The frustrating thing for protoss (me at least), is that after stim + medivacs hits, protoss units become absolute shit. I feel like the early game has fairly good back and forth, with both sides having some advantageous options. However, the best option, by far, for protoss after stim and medivacs hit, is to turtle up and defend. Don't push out. Don't set up any timings, don't try to deny any bases. Just sit there and wait for the inevitable drop + pushes that you KNOW are coming, but that you may or may not be able to stop. At the absolute most, I can make a warp prism and throw some zealots at you (or maybe have some pylons on the side). Don't lose any gas. Don't use expensive units. Don't push out at all, until you have 3/3 and all your splash options. Just sit, and wait for the speedboosted medivacs to come.
That is incredibly boring. Sure, if the terran makes several mistakes in a row, you can push out. Yes, there are a couple possible timings if terran does X and you do Y, but these are definitely the exceptions. Most games are turtle on three bases for 15 minutes, because moving out always gets you killed (either to the ridiculously cost effective drops, or because my units suck against stimmed bio unless I have a lot of splash). Then there is the constant threat of stuff being dropped in your mineral line (mines, sometimes hellions). And the ever-present scv all-ins.
It is pretty stale from the protoss perspective, as well. They tried to make the stargate more viable, but just like mech, it is basically just bad (with a few instances of success if you get lucky).
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On September 15 2013 07:08 iaguz wrote:
Ryung vs Tod was kinda neat, but ToD wasn't playing the upgrade focused style that I was referring to. He was aiming to just comfortably assemble a deathball and win off a simple push but I liked how ryung was able to keep him back through really good movement and fight taking until he could get his viking ghost online. He also had an interesting second starport timing, so I wonder if he got it to keep the option for an scv pull open or if the few extra vikings are part of his plan to keep the Protoss back for the 10 minutes or so it requires to get 4 bases and 3/3.
Still kinda neat though.
I would disagree with you Grumbels. Movement is actually hugely important in a lot of TvP's, Top KR terrans spend a lot of time looking for gaps in their opponents defences, trying to deny vision through scanning observers and slipping through drops where they can. They're very good in this respect. SCV pulling is often a response to a Protoss who is trying to get away with more eco or upgrades then the Terran feels they can handle.
Right, but is a matchup fair when you have to all in (pull scvs) or stall until they get a perfect army (ghost/viking/3-3) and pray they don't attack until the 20 minute mark?
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On September 15 2013 07:21 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 07:08 iaguz wrote:
Ryung vs Tod was kinda neat, but ToD wasn't playing the upgrade focused style that I was referring to. He was aiming to just comfortably assemble a deathball and win off a simple push but I liked how ryung was able to keep him back through really good movement and fight taking until he could get his viking ghost online. He also had an interesting second starport timing, so I wonder if he got it to keep the option for an scv pull open or if the few extra vikings are part of his plan to keep the Protoss back for the 10 minutes or so it requires to get 4 bases and 3/3.
Still kinda neat though.
I would disagree with you Grumbels. Movement is actually hugely important in a lot of TvP's, Top KR terrans spend a lot of time looking for gaps in their opponents defences, trying to deny vision through scanning observers and slipping through drops where they can. They're very good in this respect. SCV pulling is often a response to a Protoss who is trying to get away with more eco or upgrades then the Terran feels they can handle. Right, but is a matchup fair when you have to all in (pull scvs) or stall until they get a perfect army (ghost/viking/3-3) and pray they don't attack until the 20 minute mark?
A matchup is fair the closer it is to 50% winrate for each race.
It's different from a matchup being interesting.
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On September 15 2013 07:16 HardlyNever wrote:
I also am also starting to hate PvT, but from the protoss perspective. I realize once archon/colossus/ht are out it seems like protoss are just "a-moving" (believe me, they aren't) to wins. But I'll even concede that the late game is easier for protoss (both in terms of engagements, and rebuilding an army).
The frustrating thing for protoss (me at least), is that after stim + medivacs hits, protoss units become absolute shit. I feel like the early game has fairly good back and forth, with both sides having some advantageous options. However, the best option, by far, for protoss after stim and medivacs hit, is to turtle up and defend. Don't push out. Don't set up any timings, don't try to deny any bases. Just sit there and wait for the inevitable drop + pushes that you KNOW are coming, but that you may or may not be able to stop. At the absolute most, I can make a warp prism and throw some zealots at you (or maybe have some pylons on the side). Don't lose any gas. Don't use expensive units. Don't push out at all, until you have 3/3 and all your splash options. Just sit, and wait for the speedboosted medivacs to come.
That is incredibly boring. Sure, if the terran makes several mistakes in a row, you can push out. Yes, there are a couple possible timings if terran does X and you do Y, but these are definitely the exceptions. Most games are turtle on three bases for 15 minutes, because moving out always gets you killed (either to the ridiculously cost effective drops, or because my units suck against stimmed bio unless I have a lot of splash). Then there is the constant threat of stuff being dropped in your mineral line (mines, sometimes hellions). And the ever-present scv all-ins.
It is pretty stale from the protoss perspective, as well. They tried to make the stargate more viable, but just like mech, it is basically just bad (with a few instances of success if you get lucky).
It's not quite like that, there's some cute stuff you can do with warp prisms, slipping out probes for hidden pylons and zealot counter harassment, plus moving all your observers around to track the terran.
Generally has to be limited to mineral only stuff though, as all gas has to go towards assembling Voltron.
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On September 15 2013 07:25 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 07:16 HardlyNever wrote:
I also am also starting to hate PvT, but from the protoss perspective. I realize once archon/colossus/ht are out it seems like protoss are just "a-moving" (believe me, they aren't) to wins. But I'll even concede that the late game is easier for protoss (both in terms of engagements, and rebuilding an army).
The frustrating thing for protoss (me at least), is that after stim + medivacs hits, protoss units become absolute shit. I feel like the early game has fairly good back and forth, with both sides having some advantageous options. However, the best option, by far, for protoss after stim and medivacs hit, is to turtle up and defend. Don't push out. Don't set up any timings, don't try to deny any bases. Just sit there and wait for the inevitable drop + pushes that you KNOW are coming, but that you may or may not be able to stop. At the absolute most, I can make a warp prism and throw some zealots at you (or maybe have some pylons on the side). Don't lose any gas. Don't use expensive units. Don't push out at all, until you have 3/3 and all your splash options. Just sit, and wait for the speedboosted medivacs to come.
That is incredibly boring. Sure, if the terran makes several mistakes in a row, you can push out. Yes, there are a couple possible timings if terran does X and you do Y, but these are definitely the exceptions. Most games are turtle on three bases for 15 minutes, because moving out always gets you killed (either to the ridiculously cost effective drops, or because my units suck against stimmed bio unless I have a lot of splash). Then there is the constant threat of stuff being dropped in your mineral line (mines, sometimes hellions). And the ever-present scv all-ins.
It is pretty stale from the protoss perspective, as well. They tried to make the stargate more viable, but just like mech, it is basically just bad (with a few instances of success if you get lucky). It's not quite like that, there's some cute stuff you can do with warp prisms, slipping out probes for hidden pylons and zealot counter harassment, plus moving all your observers around to track the terran. Generally has to be limited to mineral only stuff though, as all gas has to go towards assembling Voltron.
There is always some action going on, but I think you have to stretch a bit to say that the match-up is obviously full of interesting dynamics. If the design was successful there would just be an endless amount of exciting aspects so that it would be really easy to start listing them, instead of having to sort of search for them.
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On September 15 2013 07:16 HardlyNever wrote:
At the absolute most, I can make a warp prism and throw some zealots at you (or maybe have some pylons on the side). Don't lose any gas. Don't use expensive units.
On September 15 2013 07:25 iaguz wrote:
It's not quite like that, there's some cute stuff you can do with warp prisms, slipping out probes for hidden pylons and zealot counter harassment, plus moving all your observers around to track the terran.
Generally has to be limited to mineral only stuff though, as all gas has to go towards assembling Voltron.
0.o
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On September 15 2013 07:23 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 07:21 9-BiT wrote:On September 15 2013 07:08 iaguz wrote:
Ryung vs Tod was kinda neat, but ToD wasn't playing the upgrade focused style that I was referring to. He was aiming to just comfortably assemble a deathball and win off a simple push but I liked how ryung was able to keep him back through really good movement and fight taking until he could get his viking ghost online. He also had an interesting second starport timing, so I wonder if he got it to keep the option for an scv pull open or if the few extra vikings are part of his plan to keep the Protoss back for the 10 minutes or so it requires to get 4 bases and 3/3.
Still kinda neat though.
I would disagree with you Grumbels. Movement is actually hugely important in a lot of TvP's, Top KR terrans spend a lot of time looking for gaps in their opponents defences, trying to deny vision through scanning observers and slipping through drops where they can. They're very good in this respect. SCV pulling is often a response to a Protoss who is trying to get away with more eco or upgrades then the Terran feels they can handle. Right, but is a matchup fair when you have to all in (pull scvs) or stall until they get a perfect army (ghost/viking/3-3) and pray they don't attack until the 20 minute mark? A matchup is fair the closer it is to 50% winrate for each race. It's different from a matchup being interesting.
I would disagree with that, but as of now the point is moot because the matchup is favoring protoss in korea, god knows how it's balanced below gm (inb4 who cares).
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On September 15 2013 07:16 HardlyNever wrote:
I also am also starting to hate PvT, but from the protoss perspective. I realize once archon/colossus/ht are out it seems like protoss are just "a-moving" (believe me, they aren't) to wins. But I'll even concede that the late game is easier for protoss (both in terms of engagements, and rebuilding an army).
The frustrating thing for protoss (me at least), is that after stim + medivacs hits, protoss units become absolute shit. I feel like the early game has fairly good back and forth, with both sides having some advantageous options. However, the best option, by far, for protoss after stim and medivacs hit, is to turtle up and defend. Don't push out. Don't set up any timings, don't try to deny any bases. Just sit there and wait for the inevitable drop + pushes that you KNOW are coming, but that you may or may not be able to stop. At the absolute most, I can make a warp prism and throw some zealots at you (or maybe have some pylons on the side). Don't lose any gas. Don't use expensive units. Don't push out at all, until you have 3/3 and all your splash options. Just sit, and wait for the speedboosted medivacs to come.
That is incredibly boring. Sure, if the terran makes several mistakes in a row, you can push out. Yes, there are a couple possible timings if terran does X and you do Y, but these are definitely the exceptions. Most games are turtle on three bases for 15 minutes, because moving out always gets you killed (either to the ridiculously cost effective drops, or because my units suck against stimmed bio unless I have a lot of splash). Then there is the constant threat of stuff being dropped in your mineral line (mines, sometimes hellions). And the ever-present scv all-ins.
It is pretty stale from the protoss perspective, as well. They tried to make the stargate more viable, but just like mech, it is basically just bad (with a few instances of success if you get lucky).
I think it's boring from both sides. For T it's stressful having that burden of pressure on your side 95% of the time, and then the 5% you end up facing some massive cheeses that can catch you off guard easily if your trying to take gambles to stay ahead of an econ-hungry Toss. For P it's the fact that you are pretty much forced into playing in defence for the first 13 minutes of the game unless you are doing an all-in. For both sides, its the fact that except for a variation in how and when your tech/production is laid down, you are building the SAME UNITS OVER AND OVER FOR FOUR YEARS NOW....
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EPT
