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Thanks to the mod who fixed the typo in my title!
So this is a blog I'm making to get you people to settle an argument for me. Perhaps it's petty and dumb but I'm tired of arguing with the guy because his arguments are so far out there, I just don't know what to say.
Background:
Some motherboard manufacturer has a sound card which allows you to display the direction of the sound that you hear on your screen. I don't know if it discriminated for instance between gunfire and footsteps but regardless of that, we both argued that it's kind of "cheating". We however disagreed about whether or not it would be cheating for a deaf person, for instance, to use that visual aid for instance in a Counter Strike tournament.
I wanted to copy-paste the arguments that were used but as a general rule, they're pretty messy. I won't tell you which one I am.
Person A:
1- If we start catering to deaf people just because they've had it tough, why not also give aimbots to blind people?
2- There's no reason not to just remove sound for everybody for the whole tournament and make everyone use that program so it's fair and even.
3- Some people are born or haven't practiced for certain skills, it makes sense that they would be disadvantaged in certain areas - like short people aren't as good at basketball.
Person B:
1- The reason why it makes sense to allow deaf people to use that software is it helps them while it doesn't give them an unfair advantage.
2- That's just completely ridiculous.
3- When there's an easy way to help out a person who has a disability that doesn't do too much to mess with the game's integrity, then why not do it? We can't give little software to fix everyone but small problems can be handled sometimes.
Poll: Should deaf people be allowed to make use of the technology?No (17) 74% Yes (6) 26% 23 total votes Your vote: Should deaf people be allowed to make use of the technology? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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Out of curiosity, are you having this arrgument with a pirate?
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United States22883 Posts
I think it's problematic in tournament play, but I don't really care online. Especially given that CS:GO's sound engine is not... stellar. I think basically everyone in CS:GO would benefit by using it. In 1.6, maybe not so much.
That said, tournaments had no problems replacing the default models with big bold red/blue versions to help people see better.
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If deaf people can use it, then anyone should be able to use it. Unless you're going to have a special tournament for deaf people. That tech in particular doesn't seem like cheating as long as everyone has the ability to use it. But you shouldn't make a special exceptions for deaf people.
However, if the price point is high and/or the advantage is great for hearing people, then it should be banned for everyone.
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It's like the guy who ran in the olympics with the special feet. If you have a disability then I think you should get some special privileges.
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It's fine if the sound is good enough that a person can easily hear where the sound is coming from.
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I understand each point except person B #2. No explanation?
Honestly, if not hearing the sound puts you at a disadvantage then I don't mind something to even it out a little. I don't think some sort of small notice for sounds is necessarily bad (like a small blink on the very edges of your vision that would change size based on volume level - not knowing if it's gunfire or footsteps would still be a pretty big disadvantage IMO.
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On July 23 2013 08:52 y0su wrote:
I understand each point except person B #2. No explanation?
Honestly, if not hearing the sound puts you at a disadvantage then I don't mind something to even it out a little. I don't think some sort of small notice for sounds is necessarily bad (like a small blink on the very edges of your vision that would change size based on volume level - not knowing if it's gunfire or footsteps would still be a pretty big disadvantage IMO.
Person B's responses are counter arguments to Person A's. A's argument was that they should just remove sound for everybody if a deaf person wants to play rather than allow the deaf person to use the special sound hud thing.
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I feel that this technology should not be used. These kinds of features sort of ruin the immersiveness of the game. Outside balance reasons, one of the main aspects of many games is that players must use their hearing to decipher where a sound is coming from. I believe that these aspects are important to the integrity of games as art and entertainment. As a parallel example, imagine if Blizzard implemented a new graphics settings for people without graphics cards where the map is solid grey, terrain is solid black, and every unit is just a colored square with its name overlaid on it. This would allow starcraft to be played on a lot more computers. But do they really want this kind of game? Even if I don't use this setting, knowing that it exists and many of my opponents are playing with it really detracts from the feel of the game. Back to the original example of fps titles, the gunshots and footsteps are vital aspects to what makes the game a game. Even if most players don't use this option, just providing it is the problem. It's unfortunately for deaf people, but I don't think it is a priority to balance games based on disabilities.
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I feel that including this in a tournament setting would provide an unfair edge (either for the deaf person seeing where shots are coming from, or for regulars because this change doesn't provide as big an advantage as hearing where things are coming from would). I feel that you'd have to adjust settings so that every player started out equally with no inherent advantages or disadvantages against the others. The only way to do this is for everybody to play with absolutely no sound at all (and either give everyone soundhack or don't).
Of course, this forces regular players to be playing in an environment that they are completely not used to. This could screw up tournament play imo.
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I change my mind, deaf person's gotta deal with it. Everybody gets sound and "soundhack" and deaf person can keep "soundhack" but is disadvantaged naturally because he can't hear as well. You can't alter an environment so drastically for regulars just to accommodate disadvantaged people. Yet I think giving disadvantaged people only an advantage over regulars unbalances the game too.
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Well in tournaments I'm talking about making specific exceptions for specific players. Someone said it's fine if it's available for everybody, and maybe it's fine but I'm talking about making this available to only the deaf player(s) in order to make the game playable for them. I'm not suggesting that all disabilities should be fixed either - but in this particular case, it seems to be a clever and balanced solution to a specific problem, so why not make sure of our technology to help deaf people play in tourneys?
Some may argue that this would make CSGO less "pure" or whatever, but I think that in specific cases where the game is only mildly twisted, like here, it's not a big sacrifice to make.
As for the balance issue, I'm really not convinced that it's an advantage for deaf people. My hearing is quite the advantage, because it works at the same time as my sight. If I had to look down at my sound directional sound hug to know where it came from, it would be a chore.
And yes you could easily guess which person I am from the OP if you're a little perceptive. 
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On July 23 2013 10:12 Djzapz wrote:Well in tournaments I'm talking about making specific exceptions for specific players. Someone said it's fine if it's available for everybody, and maybe it's fine but I'm talking about making this available to only the deaf player(s) in order to make the game playable for them. I'm not suggesting that all disabilities should be fixed either - but in this particular case, it seems to be a clever and balanced solution to a specific problem, so why not make sure of our technology to help deaf people play in tourneys? Some may argue that this would make CSGO less "pure" or whatever, but I think that in specific cases where the game is only mildly twisted, like here, it's not a big sacrifice to make. As for the balance issue, I'm really not convinced that it's an advantage for deaf people. My hearing is quite the advantage, because it works at the same time as my sight. If I had to look down at my sound directional sound hug to know where it came from, it would be a chore. And yes you could easily guess which person I am from the OP if you're a little perceptive.
How is giving special utilities to specific players ever going to fly as "fair"? If they're at a disadvantage because they're deaf, I totally feel for them, but they should expect either to work extra hard to make up for their natural disadvantage, or not to play at a highly competitive level. If it gives such an advantage that it would be banned for most users, it must be banned for all users.
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On July 23 2013 10:28 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 10:12 Djzapz wrote:Well in tournaments I'm talking about making specific exceptions for specific players. Someone said it's fine if it's available for everybody, and maybe it's fine but I'm talking about making this available to only the deaf player(s) in order to make the game playable for them. I'm not suggesting that all disabilities should be fixed either - but in this particular case, it seems to be a clever and balanced solution to a specific problem, so why not make sure of our technology to help deaf people play in tourneys? Some may argue that this would make CSGO less "pure" or whatever, but I think that in specific cases where the game is only mildly twisted, like here, it's not a big sacrifice to make. As for the balance issue, I'm really not convinced that it's an advantage for deaf people. My hearing is quite the advantage, because it works at the same time as my sight. If I had to look down at my sound directional sound hug to know where it came from, it would be a chore. And yes you could easily guess which person I am from the OP if you're a little perceptive. How is giving special utilities to specific players ever going to fly as "fair"? If they're at a disadvantage because they're deaf, I totally feel for them, but they should expect either to work extra hard to make up for their natural disadvantage, or not to play at a highly competitive level. If it gives such an advantage that it would be banned for most users, it must be banned for all users.
I just don't see it that way. I think that the solution is elegant and minimalist enough that the compromise is small enough to be acceptable even at a competitive level.
Also somehow I just realized that I made a horrible typo in my title... sorry :X. If a mod happens to see this and cares to fix it, that would be nice!
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On July 23 2013 09:55 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
i don't get it
Ya i don't really get it either. I've never been too intense into fps but there has never been a moment were i run around a corner and die cause I mistook gunshots for footsteps or vice verca
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It's obvious that you are person A. And I think it's dumb to change any game to help a disabled person. But where do you draw the line, I remember colorblind people complaining about the nuke dot and other things in sc2 and wanting blizz to make some changes which they almost did.
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On July 23 2013 14:00 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Ya i don't really get it either. I've never been too intense into fps but there has never been a moment were i run around a corner and die cause I mistook gunshots for footsteps or vice verca
I don't get what you don't get... if you're deaf you don't hear either so if you have a visual hud that gives you a visual cue for the direction of the sound, then you're on the same level as someone who heard it instead of seeing it.
On July 23 2013 14:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
It's obvious that you are person A. And I think it's dumb to change any game to help a disabled person. But where do you draw the line, I remember colorblind people complaining about the nuke dot and other things in sc2 and wanting blizz to make some changes which they almost did.
You don't need to draw a line, there's no slippery slope if you say this is an exception because it's a simple fix to a simple problem and it's not overpowered. It doesn't imply that other exceptions need to be made for every disability, but in this specific case, it's convenient and humane. Certain games and tournaments for instance allow fixes for color blind players and whatnot. And to my knowledge it doesn't give any advantage to color blind people, nor would this give an advantage to a deaf person, it would merely allow them to play. They would still be disadvantaged because they can't split their attention to two senses and have to process everything through their eyes.
I still don't understand why exceptions cannot be made to help people when their disabilities can be helped with a simple fix which is not excessive or abusive in any way. I don't understand why preserving the game's integrity from even the most mild of compromises somehow supersedes helping a disabled person.
I'm both surprised and disappointed to see how little people give a fuck about helping people with disabilities... even when the "cost" is negligible, it's different so fuck those people... I have no stake in this but I still think it's very sad that people would rather keep their little videogames perfectly "pure" rather than helping others.
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for a tournament setting, using this technology would be fine if everyone (deaf and non-deaf) had the option of using it.
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On July 24 2013 05:55 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 14:00 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On July 23 2013 09:55 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
i don't get it Ya i don't really get it either. I've never been too intense into fps but there has never been a moment were i run around a corner and die cause I mistook gunshots for footsteps or vice verca I don't get what you don't get... if you're deaf you don't hear either so if you have a visual hud that gives you a visual cue for the direction of the sound, then you're on the same level as someone who heard it instead of seeing it. Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 14:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
It's obvious that you are person A. And I think it's dumb to change any game to help a disabled person. But where do you draw the line, I remember colorblind people complaining about the nuke dot and other things in sc2 and wanting blizz to make some changes which they almost did. You don't need to draw a line, there's no slippery slope if you say this is an exception because it's a simple fix to a simple problem and it's not overpowered. It doesn't imply that other exceptions need to be made for every disability, but in this specific case, it's convenient and humane. Certain games and tournaments for instance allow fixes for color blind players and whatnot. And to my knowledge it doesn't give any advantage to color blind people, nor would this give an advantage to a deaf person, it would merely allow them to play. They would still be disadvantaged because they can't split their attention to two senses and have to process everything through their eyes. I still don't understand why exceptions cannot be made to help people when their disabilities can be helped with a simple fix which is not excessive or abusive in any way. I don't understand why preserving the game's integrity from even the most mild of compromises somehow supersedes helping a disabled person. I'm both surprised and disappointed to see how little people give a fuck about helping people with disabilities... even when the "cost" is negligible, it's different so fuck those people... I have no stake in this but I still think it's very sad that people would rather keep their little videogames perfectly "pure" rather than helping others.
If you read my earlier post, were on the same page. I have no problem with providing people with disabilities the equipment or software to help them play on an equal footing.
And the Olympics don't have a problem with it either, so i don't see why teenagers should either. Just because you see it on the screen doesn't help you headshot or communicate with teammates. Like you said there still at a disadvantage.
I don't get why this argument exists in the first place.
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On July 24 2013 08:30 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:55 Djzapz wrote:On July 23 2013 14:00 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On July 23 2013 09:55 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
i don't get it Ya i don't really get it either. I've never been too intense into fps but there has never been a moment were i run around a corner and die cause I mistook gunshots for footsteps or vice verca I don't get what you don't get... if you're deaf you don't hear either so if you have a visual hud that gives you a visual cue for the direction of the sound, then you're on the same level as someone who heard it instead of seeing it. On July 23 2013 14:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
It's obvious that you are person A. And I think it's dumb to change any game to help a disabled person. But where do you draw the line, I remember colorblind people complaining about the nuke dot and other things in sc2 and wanting blizz to make some changes which they almost did. You don't need to draw a line, there's no slippery slope if you say this is an exception because it's a simple fix to a simple problem and it's not overpowered. It doesn't imply that other exceptions need to be made for every disability, but in this specific case, it's convenient and humane. Certain games and tournaments for instance allow fixes for color blind players and whatnot. And to my knowledge it doesn't give any advantage to color blind people, nor would this give an advantage to a deaf person, it would merely allow them to play. They would still be disadvantaged because they can't split their attention to two senses and have to process everything through their eyes. I still don't understand why exceptions cannot be made to help people when their disabilities can be helped with a simple fix which is not excessive or abusive in any way. I don't understand why preserving the game's integrity from even the most mild of compromises somehow supersedes helping a disabled person. I'm both surprised and disappointed to see how little people give a fuck about helping people with disabilities... even when the "cost" is negligible, it's different so fuck those people... I have no stake in this but I still think it's very sad that people would rather keep their little videogames perfectly "pure" rather than helping others. If you read my earlier post, were on the same page. I have no problem with providing people with disabilities the equipment or software to help them play on an equal footing. And the Olympics don't have a problem with it either, so i don't see why teenagers should either. Just because you see it on the screen doesn't help you headshot or communicate with teammates. Like you said there still at a disadvantage. I don't get why this argument exists in the first place.
Well the poll and the posts suggest that there are people on both sides. It even seems like the majority is on the other side. It's strange to me.
Also sorry I misunderstood your post.
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On July 24 2013 11:43 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 08:30 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On July 24 2013 05:55 Djzapz wrote:On July 23 2013 14:00 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On July 23 2013 09:55 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
i don't get it Ya i don't really get it either. I've never been too intense into fps but there has never been a moment were i run around a corner and die cause I mistook gunshots for footsteps or vice verca I don't get what you don't get... if you're deaf you don't hear either so if you have a visual hud that gives you a visual cue for the direction of the sound, then you're on the same level as someone who heard it instead of seeing it. On July 23 2013 14:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
It's obvious that you are person A. And I think it's dumb to change any game to help a disabled person. But where do you draw the line, I remember colorblind people complaining about the nuke dot and other things in sc2 and wanting blizz to make some changes which they almost did. You don't need to draw a line, there's no slippery slope if you say this is an exception because it's a simple fix to a simple problem and it's not overpowered. It doesn't imply that other exceptions need to be made for every disability, but in this specific case, it's convenient and humane. Certain games and tournaments for instance allow fixes for color blind players and whatnot. And to my knowledge it doesn't give any advantage to color blind people, nor would this give an advantage to a deaf person, it would merely allow them to play. They would still be disadvantaged because they can't split their attention to two senses and have to process everything through their eyes. I still don't understand why exceptions cannot be made to help people when their disabilities can be helped with a simple fix which is not excessive or abusive in any way. I don't understand why preserving the game's integrity from even the most mild of compromises somehow supersedes helping a disabled person. I'm both surprised and disappointed to see how little people give a fuck about helping people with disabilities... even when the "cost" is negligible, it's different so fuck those people... I have no stake in this but I still think it's very sad that people would rather keep their little videogames perfectly "pure" rather than helping others. If you read my earlier post, were on the same page. I have no problem with providing people with disabilities the equipment or software to help them play on an equal footing. And the Olympics don't have a problem with it either, so i don't see why teenagers should either. Just because you see it on the screen doesn't help you headshot or communicate with teammates. Like you said there still at a disadvantage. I don't get why this argument exists in the first place. Well the poll and the posts suggest that there are people on both sides. It even seems like the majority is on the other side. It's strange to me. Also sorry I misunderstood your post.
I think the point is that people have limitations and we shouldn't be modifying the sport or whatever every time a new rare thing pops up, because ultimately it fucks with everyone else. This applies to everything in life; building codes, political correctness, allergy banned foods, gender neutrality, etc.
Like seriously, some people are tall so they play basketball, we don't put stilts on short guys to make it fair for them. They have their lack of genes which decides what they can and can not do. Its the hand that nature dealt you, do something else. I'm sure there are other things you can do that you can excel at. Even against 'normal' people in the same field.
I also think it's stupid that they let those people with the crazy leg spring leg prosthetic are allowed to race with other runners.
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