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Russian Federation5 Posts
NS' Blog: "Captain Ping - the guardian of order" 21.05.13
This is a translation of the original article from virtuspro.org.
This is a long-standing problem. First of all, I want to warn anyone who will say, "that's just an excuse, learn to play," - just leave. Undoubtedly, sometimes ping won't get in the way of a team that is much stronger than their opponent. However, when the teams are just about equal, things like ping are important, and more than just a little bit.
(Captain Server, Captain Coin and Captain Ping - The Injustice League) (3 superheroes of modern Dota 2)
A little bit of theory for people who don't know all of the rules for Dota tournaments with both EU and NA teams playing. When two teams from different continents meet, the first game is played on a US server, the second on an EU server, and the third deciding game (that is required almost all the time) is decided by a coin toss. The judge performs it and announces the server.
Occasionally tournaments have different rules. For example, the group stage of EMS One, which was played online, had the rule that all games must be played on the EU server. Guess what place Liquid (from NA) took in its group? (Mind you, they're definitely not the weakest team of all that were invited to TI3.) Yeah, they were last...
By the way, it should be said that in every group for the EMS One qualifiers, there was one NA team. Their results were not comforting: not a single NA team won a single game; they ended with a 0-12 score, or 12-0 in favor of the EU server.
A little excursion into the remote past. When Dota wasn't as popular as it is right now, when the player's problems weren't treated as vigilantly as right now, online tournaments were attended by teams from all over the world. It was quite normal to have a match between Europe and, for example, Malaysia. And in those games, it would take three or more hours to choose their host. Not a joke.
Everyone was praying that some whale wouldn't damage the cable in the Pacific Ocean or something like that. Of course the team with the more favorable server would always win. Admittedly, back then the ping wasn't as important as it is right now, because the general level of play was much lower and micro wasn't as important.
However, naturally, this practice was completely given up, and the last online tournaments with both EU and Asian teams passed away in 2010. The only team that continued to give headaches to Europeans in Dota 2 was AL (from Australia).
(ex-AL, Australian team - the "favourite" opponent of all European teams)
Against AL, Europeans were forced to play on US West, which is completely unplayable for them. After playing, or rather, losing like this for 6 months, absolutely all EU teams refused to play on US West any more. Since then the Dota 2 lines shifted, and the world became divided between Asia and EU+NA, as we now are familiar with today.
Next I will provide a few Twitter excerpts from known personalities in eSports.
(Didn't win a single game on US and won every single game on EU. It's not an excuse but ServerDota never fails) (Hope for TAILS) (So... waiting for cointoss. Tails gives Na`Vi EU server) (TAILS!! EU HOST)
And that's just what I managed to find in a few minutes. If you follow the various Twitters of players and commentators, you will definitely find mentions of servers and ping after almost every game between EU and NA.
Indeed, the ping affects the players in a tremendous way, and numerous teams even have to adjust their picks depending on their ping. On high ping they tend to pick simple, one-button-like heroes, like Magnus and Gyrocopter, and hope that they will win 5v5 fights. On the other hand, on low ping... Heroes like Templar Assassin and Storm start appearing. They buy Shadowblades. They try to capitalize on mobility, because the enemy simply can't stun the Storm Spirit or a hero running away with Shadowblade. This is stupid and pathetic when you adjust your play not only for the opponent, but also for the server. It has been mentioned countless times but things aren't changing.
(High ping? Pick the one-button Magnus and drive away your enemies!)
Occasionally, we get an amazing game when everyone has 200+ ping, and for some reason everyone thinks that it's OK. Equal terms. In my opinion that looks like a situation where a hundred-meter running track is smeared with glue or fuel oil and everyone is forced to run on it. Equal terms! Sure, they are equal, but it doesn't look like a normal competition.
On the basis of what I've written above, I can safely state that we have a very unhealthy situation for a game so popular and serious as Dota 2. It doesn't happen almost anywhere else; StarCraft II, CS, World of Tanks and other games do not run intercontinental online tournaments with big prizepools. But with Dota 2, even The International 3 qualifiers and G-League qualifiers were played like this. Every time EU and NA teams meet there are server problems. We must do something about it right now.
Dota is developing like never before. Running online tournaments has become truly profitable so there are a lot of them. Running a LAN event, on the other hand, is difficult and expensive - not many people can be bothered. Most organizers restrict themselves to the online scene; they sell the tickets, invite all the stars and that's all. I think that we must stop this practice gradually, or at least keep it to a minimum.
(East vs. West, America vs Europe)
We must strictly divide the tournaments by regions. Is it an EU tournament? Play on the EU server. Don't like it? Then don't play on EU tournaments, or if you do play, then don't complain (StarLadder has these rules, I thank them for it). The same goes for NA. Someone wants to run an intercontinental tournament? Easy, run qualifiers for each continent online, separately. The winners go to a LAN which result in spectacular Finals. Everyone is happy!
I know that the overwhelming majority of professional players support my view, but for some reason no one wants to write about it. It is possible that no one believes that this will change anything, or perhaps it is just laziness. Everyone rides on the stream. Well, it's not hard for me to just write about it, and it's not the first time I have done so. I hope that this blog will create some kind of resonance and something will start to change.
Thank you for your attention!
 
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
Welcome! Good to have your blog on TL!
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Russian Federation5 Posts
On May 25 2013 01:21 dfs wrote:
Welcome! Good to have your blog on TL!
Pleasure for me 
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Great initiative!
I hope things change. For example, next year's TI Qualifiers should be offline. Bigger spectacle and a lot more fair results.
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5673 Posts
Nice to have you blogging here on TL, NS. Welcome! 
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Welcome NS!
Interesting blog - I'm a bit split on this one (well, mainly because there really is no NA scene, so this would screw NA teams over).
I'm not sure there is a solution - perhaps valve should invest in a server midway on a secret island in the Atlantic Ocean so NA and EU get equal pings 
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Very interesting issue that doesn't get a lot of attention from players, hope it gets the attention it deserves.
Thanks for posting here!
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Great blog! Totally agree. And welcome to TL! :D
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On May 25 2013 01:57 Comeh wrote:Welcome NS! Interesting blog - I'm a bit split on this one (well, mainly because there really is no NA scene, so this would screw NA teams over). I'm not sure there is a solution - perhaps valve should invest in a server midway on a secret island in the Atlantic Ocean so NA and EU get equal pings
Atlantis server?
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Cold war rises again! Russian gamers are trying to eliminate their US counterparts. More informations on page 2.
To be honest even spectators are scammed by this server problem because 85%+ winrate for home server really breaks the excitement. Toss wins happen way too often. There are two solutions : more lan (harder to do than in SC2 because of the number of players) and same shitty ping for both, more realistic and the lesser evil I think.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I have to say that I think seperation of scenes would be good for ping and that LAN is where it is at but I don't think that NA esp can survive on its own right now. Unless that changes I think it is quite hard to seperate the scenes like that.
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Good blog and i agree, the server issues has made me care less about online performances and how much they weight they carry and also made me watch less random-online tourney 200. Hoping to see more lans in the future
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Great job. Thanks for translating.
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There's only 3 major sponsored teams in NA, it's not sustainable for them to be secluded, I don't think the answer is as simple as you make it. The problem does suck though.
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Leagues like D2L give server priority to US teams while no league in Europe does that. It's really time to force the US teams to play on EU servers instead of free-loading in tournaments that are run by the European organisations. It sucks to see VP, Mouz, Navi, etc. lose for the 10000 time 2-1 because the last server was on US "due to fairness". There is no fairness. There is given an advantage to a smaller community to whatever reason but it is definetly not faire, especially for the European scene.
On May 25 2013 03:03 a-game wrote:
There's only 3 major sponsored teams in NA, it's not sustainable for them to be secluded, I don't think the answer is as simple as you make it. The problem does suck though.
Then the US scene needs to pick up their own slack not live on the expense of other teams.
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Then the US scene needs to pick up their own slack not live on the expense of other teams.
If only it was that easy. Even SC2's NA scene isn't anywhere near Europe. It's a problem where there isn't a solution where everyone wins beyond time I think.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
But the NA scene can't live on its own, there is not enough interest, not enough sponsors. Its a downward spiral if you seperate NA like that. IndyO is right, there is no solution where everyone wins, somebody has to lose and NA has a lot to lose.
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Very interesting read and I completely agree with you. Playing on any EU server from my home in USWest is just unplayable. However, as someone from NA, I feel like it would hurt the scene. We have what, three big name teams? Maybe this will allow for more amateur NA teams to rise up, or perhaps there is a better solution, like Valve investing in a server farm in the Azores or something crazy like that.
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On May 25 2013 03:11 Kipsate wrote:
But the NA scene can't live on its own, there is not enough interest, not enough sponsors. Its a downward spiral if you seperate NA like that. IndyO is right, there is no solution where everyone wins, somebody has to lose and NA has a lot to lose.
While I agree that NA scene can't live on its own, they should take steps toward making it viable ie do do semi descent tournaments in NA where the top NA teams participation should be mandatory, so in it's own time, a scene would grow. The American League that will start with NA + SA teams is a descent start, and 10k prizepool justify the inclusion of the top teams.
And I think NA teams should bow and play on EU servers on online european competitions.
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so because NA can't handle their scene alone, European teams have to play on NA? Why not put a server to australia and play there? so AL wouldn't be so alone
you know fairness and stuff....
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Brazil1429 Posts
Each scene having their own tournament would be awesome, but you just don't build the scene like this.
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It's gotten to the point where it feels "tainted" rooting for teams I like when the server is in their favor. However, since the NA tournament scene is basically nonexistent I don't know how it can improve.
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Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game.
User was warned for this post
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On May 25 2013 03:28 Lamoraaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:11 Kipsate wrote:
But the NA scene can't live on its own, there is not enough interest, not enough sponsors. Its a downward spiral if you seperate NA like that. IndyO is right, there is no solution where everyone wins, somebody has to lose and NA has a lot to lose. While I agree that NA scene can't live on its own, they should take steps toward making it viable ie do do semi descent tournaments in NA where the top NA teams participation should be mandatory, so in it's own time, a scene would grow. The American League that will start with NA + SA teams is a descent start, and 10k prizepool justify the inclusion of the top teams. And I think NA teams should bow and play on EU servers on online european competitions.
Wouldn't there be the same ping problem with using SA teams to compete on north american tournaments (US East/West) ? I mean, maybe it's just me and my internet is terrible, but I usually get 220ms on East and never tried West because I just assume routing is worse from where I am (SP).
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Actually this is in a twisted way related to the issue with SHOUTCraft in SC2. NA scene as it is cannot support itself, but it needs these over-the-seas competitions, which in turn don't get any better even if the teams from NA would add to the competition without the server-issue. Something similar to SHOUTCraft could be nice, a tournament for truly NA teams.
On the other hand the three dominant NA teams, Dignitas, TL and EG could hypothetically just relocate to Germany for example. At the moment it is just not sustainable. Prize pools are too small and I don't think teams stream such as SC2 players so that stream ad revenue would be a serious source of income. And at the same time this solution would likely kill even the little pro DotA2 from NA that exists besides "the three".
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On May 25 2013 03:58 Souone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:28 Lamoraaa wrote:On May 25 2013 03:11 Kipsate wrote:
But the NA scene can't live on its own, there is not enough interest, not enough sponsors. Its a downward spiral if you seperate NA like that. IndyO is right, there is no solution where everyone wins, somebody has to lose and NA has a lot to lose. While I agree that NA scene can't live on its own, they should take steps toward making it viable ie do do semi descent tournaments in NA where the top NA teams participation should be mandatory, so in it's own time, a scene would grow. The American League that will start with NA + SA teams is a descent start, and 10k prizepool justify the inclusion of the top teams. And I think NA teams should bow and play on EU servers on online european competitions. Wouldn't there be the same ping problem with using SA teams to compete on north american tournaments (US East/West) ? I mean, maybe it's just me and my internet is terrible, but I usually get 220ms on East and never tried West because I just assume routing is worse from where I am (SP).
I will answer this in 2 parts:
. I'm from Rio and get 130 ms with virtua, but tons of my friends get 200~250 like you do. So in this sense, it's the same.
. The other part is not the same at all: What I'm proposing is to grow regional leagues. As neither SA or NA can have a sustainable scene alone, you grow a scene uniting this 2 regions first. When you get 20 to 30 descent teams in a NA + SA scene like you do have in EU, you take it to the next level and try to create two different scenes, one for NA and one for SA. The cycle possibly continues till we have tournaments with close pings.
Keep in mind that a important part of this is that the top NA teams need to continue competing in the EU scene for now(imo bowing to EU servers), otherwise they will get less sponsor exposure, possibly run into financial problems and die.
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maybe his team should play starladder only...
tournaments make their rules, if you dont like it dont play.
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On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game.
I'm sure you'll damage his ego quite a lot, him being a new player breaking into the scene with so little fans and respect given.
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I am a big fan of regional server. Its also a great way to prevent bleeding money which will be needed once the scene expand. Look at SC2 right now and how all the Koreans moving to NA just to get an easier bracket. I concur :D
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I like how he says europe instead of russian/ukranian teams (who are the teams with actual ping issues to USE server). EG had over 250+ ping in the west qualifier, so its not like they are in ping heaven connecting to EU servers.
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On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game.
Huh?....what? Did you even read the whole thing?
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On May 25 2013 04:39 fattycop wrote:
I like how he says europe instead of russian/ukranian teams (who are the teams with actual ping issues to USE server). EG had over 250+ ping in the west qualifier, so its not like they are in ping heaven connecting to EU servers.
12 0 for Europe in EMS, how can you argue against this, he does not say the problem is one sided. Russia alone is bigger than whole NA anyway... Think about it like if it were your job, because it's his one.
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Good post NS, this issue needs some light! Ive heard about these issues (mostly from ingame complaining).
I do agree with you that tourneys should be based to a continent.
If there ever was a online groupstage for G1 with both Chinese and Western teams participating, you think they would let any games be played on EU or NA?
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On May 25 2013 04:46 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 04:39 fattycop wrote:
I like how he says europe instead of russian/ukranian teams (who are the teams with actual ping issues to USE server). EG had over 250+ ping in the west qualifier, so its not like they are in ping heaven connecting to EU servers. 12 0 for Europe in EMS, how can you argue against this, he does not say the problem is one sided. Russia alone is bigger than whole NA anyway... Think about it like if it were your job, because it's his one.
I felt like the article was overly critical of NA teams while saying EU teams were the ones being harmed. I agree that its a huge problem for both. Maybe just lost in translation :D
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On May 25 2013 04:50 fattycop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 04:46 nojok wrote:On May 25 2013 04:39 fattycop wrote:
I like how he says europe instead of russian/ukranian teams (who are the teams with actual ping issues to USE server). EG had over 250+ ping in the west qualifier, so its not like they are in ping heaven connecting to EU servers. 12 0 for Europe in EMS, how can you argue against this, he does not say the problem is one sided. Russia alone is bigger than whole NA anyway... Think about it like if it were your job, because it's his one. I felt like the article was overly critical of NA teams while saying EU teams were the ones being harmed. I agree that its a huge problem for both. Maybe just lost in translation :D
I think you're right but the problem is still there despite his bias.
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Why wouldn't he be biased? It's obviously the american teams who are benefiting the most from the current situation.
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This is definitely a problem. When games are (to some extent) influenced or even determined by chance, it undermines the legitimacy of the whole eSport.
Not sure what can be done about this though. Maybe Valve should just put a server in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean so that it's equidistant from both EU and NA. Or perhaps play on China or SEA servers so it's equally unplayable for both teams and all the unfairness is gone.
Nice blog tho. Желаю удачи VP
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On May 25 2013 04:55 karake wrote:
Why wouldn't he be biased? It's obviously the american teams who are benefiting the most from the current situation.
You can turn that around and say that the American teams are the ones who will be fucked the most by a change to the status quo.
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Maybe at some point EU scene will grow big enough that NA teams simply move to EU ?
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On May 25 2013 04:57 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 04:55 karake wrote:
Why wouldn't he be biased? It's obviously the american teams who are benefiting the most from the current situation. You can turn that around and say that the American teams are the ones who will be fucked the most by a change to the status quo.
That's obviously true. If the american teams lose their ping advantage their win rates will plummet. The situation now however makes EU vs US games almost completely uninteresting and I feel bad every time a team claims the top spot because of a ping advantage.
The best solution for Dota would be as some people have said to make EU tournaments be played out on EU servers and US tournaments played out on US servers. That way a team can - if they think they're good enough - play with a disadvantage and the home teams will not be screwed over by a coin toss.
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Let's not forget that often it's pings who decide who gets thousands of dollars/euros.
It's not a small issue.
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Russian Federation5 Posts
Thanks everyone for support
I didnt want to destroy NA scene, lol. I just want best conditions for every player on both continents.
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On May 25 2013 05:04 Zaphid wrote:
Maybe at some point EU scene will grow big enough that NA teams simply move to EU ?
Maybe, but if that happens then the odds of good teams in NA developing will plummet since all the tournaments will be hosted in EU and the money will probably come from the EU as well. Ideally both regions would have a really strong scene and neither would be forced to move to the other so they could play in tournaments.
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On May 25 2013 04:46 Atoissen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game. Huh?....what? Did you even read the whole thing?
he's a troll, has like 50 accounts on reddit due to them being continually banned. just report and move on I guess
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4713 Posts
On May 25 2013 03:11 Kipsate wrote:
But the NA scene can't live on its own, there is not enough interest, not enough sponsors. Its a downward spiral if you seperate NA like that. IndyO is right, there is no solution where everyone wins, somebody has to lose and NA has a lot to lose.
This sounds eerily similar to a problem the NA SC2 scene is suffering from now, where the lack of local tournaments and competition has stiffed growth and progress to the point where now most NA players can't compete with the best of EU, never mind Koreans.
I think, for the better of both the NA and EU scenes, but especially the NA scene, it is best to region lock it.
I don't think there really isn't any interest in the local heroes, TotalBiscuit did a NA only tournament in an attempt to foster more growth in the SC2 scene for NA, and while he did meet technical difficulties, by his own assessment, the tournament was a success and it proved that there is interest in the local scene.
What is needed is for that interest to be tapped into, harnessed, more teams created, more sponsors found. I have no doubt it won't be easy, but I don't believe for a moment that it can't be done.
Also, not region locking actually still hurts the NA scene. Not only does it feel unfair for the europeans that they lose because of bad ping, but the NA scene actually gets build on uneasy soil. They don't get to fight the europeans at their mightiest because of the ping issues, thus they gain easier victories and a false sense of strength. When it comes to playing in actual LAN events, on even footing they might stumble and fail miserably, because they don't have the actual strength of fighting toe to toe with EU or China.
I say, for the better of all DotA, there needs to be region locking, otherwise you risk repeating in the DotA scene, what has already happened in the NA SC2 scene.
Thanks to the author for posting this, its good to have people speak their mind and point out conditions that aren't the best, and foster discussions on how to bring improvements.
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Its just more fair to have EUW play on USE than USW play on EUW europe needs to just accept relatively minor ping issues. and thats math, you can't argue with math.
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On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game.
did you fix your O key or what
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On May 25 2013 06:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its just more fair to have EUW play on USE than USW play on EUW europe needs to just accept relatively minor ping issues. and thats math, you can't argue with math.
There's no problem with that at all. The problem is when ukraine and russian teams have to play on USE, at that point its a really big issue for both teams either way.
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Of course its easy to find tweets of players complaining when they lose. They dont say anything when they win. Not saying its not an advantage but he is making out that teams lose every game when the ping is against them.
Teams seem to want someone to fix this for them when there is very little that can be done bar setting up servers in Greenland or some such place. However there are countries in the EU that have a good ping to US East (UK for one). Its time that they start considering bootcamping or setting up a teamhouse in one of these countries. The same goes for the US, I know its convenient for the owners of EG to just put the team into a house in Arizona but it isn't actually doing the team any favours when they could find somewhere nearer with less ping issues. Although its not so easy for CIS teams to do the same.
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The game is unplayable for me on 120+ ping, I guess it's what you're used to but 200ping isnt even close to showing your actual skill. Hope that casters at least show what server they are playing on and what ping the players have since it's not really fair to them.
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On May 25 2013 06:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its just more fair to have EUW play on USE than USW play on EUW europe needs to just accept relatively minor ping issues. and thats math, you can't argue with math.
You can argue it when you are wrong, CIS teams get as high a ping to USE as NA West coast teams do on EUW there is no middle ground unfortunately its the matchup that has the biggest problem at the moment.
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Sanya12364 Posts
While it is better to speak frankly about such issues, the overall solution to region lock is rather silly.
The overall goal of tournaments is to find a niche with the widest marketability. Failing to attract the best teams reduces relevance and viewership and ultimately the prize pool. It is therefore up to the organizers to balance the tradeoffs and the general pattern is the prevalent approach of unifying EU, NA, and CIS regions in online tournaments. Some tournaments are EU/NA centric, and they have their targeted audience that is often smaller.
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On May 25 2013 07:16 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game. did you fix your O key or what
LOL I wouldn't have even noticed if you hadn't said something. that's pretty great.
I also agree that ping can cause a lot of problems but sadly I don't see anyway to fix that problem. Teams will just have to live with it.  I don't think anything should be changed if it punishes an entire area =/
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On May 25 2013 05:43 nska wrote:Thanks everyone for support I didnt want to destroy NA scene, lol. I just want best conditions for every player on both continents.
You made a great post, instead of just complaining about it (Which happens sometimes), you offered real solutions, and made real points, about how the ping changes how people play, how they draft. Thats a bigger influence than anything else
Ultimately, points like that show how the ping problems harm the viewer as much as the players, they're not getting the super competitive matches they want
As for your solutions
"The same goes for NA. Someone wants to run an intercontinental tournament? Easy, run qualifiers for each continent online, separately. The winners go to a LAN which result in spectacular Finals. Everyone is happy!"
I'm pretty sure thats how EMS is running their second cup, and this is absolutely the way to do it. It lets us have a vibrant competetive scene between the two continents, without ping getting in the way
I'd prefer more of what EMS is doing and less of full online tournaments
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On May 25 2013 07:16 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:44 Haxity wrote:
Thanks for giving me a reason to never respect you as a player in this game. did you fix your O key or what
lmao i was gonna ask that...
Great to have you on TL NS! Good blog too because you back it up with evidence, so people can understand how much ping affects players.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On May 25 2013 08:34 TanGeng wrote:
While it is better to speak frankly about such issues, the overall solution to region lock is rather silly.
The overall goal of tournaments is to find a niche with the widest marketability. Failing to attract the best teams reduces relevance and viewership and ultimately the prize pool. It is therefore up to the organizers to balance the tradeoffs and the general pattern is the prevalent approach of unifying EU, NA, and CIS regions in online tournaments. Some tournaments are EU/NA centric, and they have their targeted audience that is often smaller.
You don't have to region lock the tournaments you just have to lock the server for a tournament.
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first thing valve should do is at least fix the goddam us east server. i get ~130 ping on USE which is definitely playable (for me at least) but the absurd number of spikes, freezes and disconnects completely ruins it. it happens to everyone, not just to eu players. i remember like 6 months ago when i used to have 40 ping on USE (same internet connection and pc) and none of this ever happened. idk what the hell happened (maybe just a lot more players), but i know that this can be fixed with just a server upgrade/fix/w.e alone. valve can resolve this if they care enough about it, no need for extreme measures.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Nice blog, thanks for the translation.
On May 25 2013 02:40 Kennigit wrote:
Great job. Thanks for translating.
You look weird. :s
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