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On May 04 2013 13:22 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 12:15 docvoc wrote:
Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life. It's difficult enough to judge why people do things when they are alive. Even harder when they are no longer around to ask why. How do we know their reasons were stupid? But on a more practical note, what is the "treating life like they should" that these people must realize?
His point is that emotional weakness and tough times can cloud an individuals ability to accurately valuate their life, and this is why out of hand acceptance of suicide is to forget that even the strongest of us need the help of others from time to time.
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On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess.
I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other.
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On May 04 2013 13:30 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:22 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 12:15 docvoc wrote:
Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life. It's difficult enough to judge why people do things when they are alive. Even harder when they are no longer around to ask why. How do we know their reasons were stupid? But on a more practical note, what is the "treating life like they should" that these people must realize? His point is that emotional weakness and tough times can cloud an individuals ability to accurately valuate their life, and this is why out of hand acceptance of suicide is to forget that even the strongest of us need the help of others from time to time.
I don't think anyone is arguing for out of hand acceptance of suicide. There would be no point in discussing it if so. I agree that no one is so strong that they never need help. What I'm wondering is what kind of help would be of most benefit to the people in the article.
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On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD
Are their suicide rates high historically?
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On May 04 2013 13:35 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess. I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other.
The simplest way to say it is that we are exceptionalist. We always think our situation is different, and that we have special privilege to consider things more seriously. We're only half wrong. Our situation is different from the oversimplified one our 'value' is concerned with. It's just that so is everyone else's.
I made a long response about what I think the nature of suicide is and why people do it, but I think I'll try again ;p It's like this:
1: We crave validation and respect (whether that's socialized or by nature)
2: We crave it more when we don't think we have it.
3: Whether we have it or not, we react violently when someone is rude to us (in our imagination or reality).
4: If we believe that person is correct (again, whether imagined or not), we can become violent to ourselves.
5: Therefore, a strong support group that can give us validation during times of perceived failure can be absolutely critical.
6: No support group to intervene means we begin to believe it is impossible to gain one.
7: Interest in everything else declines.
8: Learned helplessness and self-fulfilled prophecies begin preventing us from giving honest effort in subsequent attempts to gain validation.
9: Total collapse of self-worth. Dark thoughts. etc.
What we believe will create that sense of validation, whether it is a partner or grades or a good job is of less consequence. The partner, the grades, the good job are thought of as means to something else much more important. The security provided in strong relationships with other human beings (platonic or not). Our relationship with our society and whether or not we feel like we are living up to what it says we are supposed to. Even if you have a good job or a family, if you feel like you're playing a role and it's not you that has the good job, but the role, the image you've created, that's almost the same as not being respected or validated, because the role is validated, not you.
If we want South Korea as our example, how many kids feel like they'll have no friends and no future, that their parents will all but disown them if they don't get into the university of choice? Some stick around to find out that maybe there's more to life, but a lot get into those thoughts that the only respectable life is the one which makes the grade ;p
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On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me  . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger.
Suicide is bringing misery to everyone that cares about you. Its no way out and should not be seen like this. Its everyones own choice, but with suicide things don't get better, you only take the chance away to make them better.
From a youtube beat:
People everywhere startin to lose their ground
We see insanity take everyone down
We've lost ourselves to the madness within
Got no reason, or so we think, to continue livin'
We don't have the right minds to believe in ourselves
Callin' people your enemy when the true enemy is yourself
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Sure, some people might say suicide is selfish and hurts everyone else, but isn't it more selfish for others to force them to live? What someone wants to do with their life is their own perogative, even if it is to end it. It sucks to be affected by it, but that's how the world is, other people's decisions sometimes will affect you and be unpleasant, doesn't mean you can take their decision making ability away. At least they know exactly what they're getting. People that die in car accidents didn't necessarily want to die and weren't expecting it just because they got in a car, and it's much more easily preventable too. I think the number of casualties from car accidents, with a lot of innocent victims injured or killed, is a much higher priority issue than some people wanting to inflict harm on themselves. Not that we shouldn't support things like readily available counseling, etc., but acting holier than thou about how [you're] hurting those [you] know, [you're] throwing away [your] future, [you're] doing it for stupid reasons, I don't understand why [you] would want it, or any other similar cliche certainly isn't the kind helping they need.
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On May 04 2013 13:41 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD Are their suicide rates high historically?
Korea's suicide rates have been high since the rise of the salaryman I think. Which would be the late 1900s
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On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works.
Any basic business/finance class should give you a good enough understanding of how the system works on a whole for you to make competent financial decisions. The problem seems to be that school has geared so many kids to the "study, test, forget" cycle that even when they learn things that are useful, they don't apply any of it to their own lives.
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Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
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On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun.
Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
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If you feel like killing yourself, come visit me and I will make you the best sandwich you have ever eaten and show you why it's a bad idea to kill yourself.
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In the US suicide is at a higher rate, but it's still far lower than deaths by many diseases: eg Cancer and Heart Disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate
The problem is that suicide isn't really treated as a problem whereas everyone recognizes that cars are dangerous. I personally think they should be replaced as a mode of transportation but I guess flight is too difficult.
Instead people blame the victims much like the rich blame the poor for being poor.
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On May 04 2013 23:26 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun. Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
he is great I agree 
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Pretty sad to see that the suicide rates are that high  That said banning guns would most likely not stop people from commiting suicide though as ive seen other people have claimed. If you are desperate to kill yourself lack of guns will not stop that.
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I can't find the article but I recall reading one which talked about huge increases in car safety having effectively slashed car accident death numbers way down. Although suicide on the rise is a problem in America, especially with the lack of effective mental health available to people in need.
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On May 04 2013 11:02 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works. My dad has spoken to many high school classes about financial planning. He says that the kids don't even pretend to listen to him. Telling kids doesn't work, they have to see it for themselves. I think the worst thing you can do to a child is pay for everything they want. Pay for what they need: food, shelter, clothing, and schooling. Anything else they want they can either wait for their birthday/christmas or buy themselves.
I took Economics my junior year of high school. The teacher was my favorite high school teacher, he taught nothing but how to plan for our futures and only taught enough market theory stuff for us to invest wisely. Really cool class, we had to do a real life project and practice budgeting. Most useful class I ever took in high school.
Every school should make that kind of class mandatory.
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On May 04 2013 14:53 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:35 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess. I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other. The simplest way to say it is that we are exceptionalist. We always think our situation is different, and that we have special privilege to consider things more seriously. We're only half wrong. Our situation is different from the oversimplified one our 'value' is concerned with. It's just that so is everyone else's. I made a long response about what I think the nature of suicide is and why people do it, but I think I'll try again ;p It's like this: 1: We crave validation and respect (whether that's socialized or by nature) 2: We crave it more when we don't think we have it. 3: Whether we have it or not, we react violently when someone is rude to us (in our imagination or reality). 4: If we believe that person is correct (again, whether imagined or not), we can become violent to ourselves. 5: Therefore, a strong support group that can give us validation during times of perceived failure can be absolutely critical. 6: No support group to intervene means we begin to believe it is impossible to gain one. 7: Interest in everything else declines. 8: Learned helplessness and self-fulfilled prophecies begin preventing us from giving honest effort in subsequent attempts to gain validation. 9: Total collapse of self-worth. Dark thoughts. etc. What we believe will create that sense of validation, whether it is a partner or grades or a good job is of less consequence. The partner, the grades, the good job are thought of as means to something else much more important. The security provided in strong relationships with other human beings (platonic or not). Our relationship with our society and whether or not we feel like we are living up to what it says we are supposed to. Even if you have a good job or a family, if you feel like you're playing a role and it's not you that has the good job, but the role, the image you've created, that's almost the same as not being respected or validated, because the role is validated, not you. If we want South Korea as our example, how many kids feel like they'll have no friends and no future, that their parents will all but disown them if they don't get into the university of choice? Some stick around to find out that maybe there's more to life, but a lot get into those thoughts that the only respectable life is the one which makes the grade ;p
The list seems reasonable. That's why I think it makes sense that the aging population here is particularly vulnerable. Validation and respect are within grasp during your prime, and then suddenly, past a certain age, it is near impossible to find (not for all, but I would say many). Most have only family as support group if anything, but being taken care of by them is often viewed as failure, or an imposition.
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On May 04 2013 18:36 ktimekiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:41 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD Are their suicide rates high historically? Korea's suicide rates have been high since the rise of the salaryman I think. Which would be the late 1900s
I know it sounds ethnocentric but I wonder how much America's exported culture has impacted happiness in countries that are heavily influenced.
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On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
They may keep living, but they won't necessarily want to live. I would much rather try to give people a hope that their life is worth something, rather than merely taking away their ability to end it. Numbers can only tell so much... we can reduce numbers of deaths, yet not lower human suffering.
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EPT
