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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/health/suicide-rate-rises-sharply-in-us.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
Mortality Weekly Report. In 2010 there were 33,687 deaths from motor vehicle crashes and 38,364 suicides.
Suicide has typically been viewed as a problem of teenagers and the elderly, and the surge in suicide rates among middle-aged Americans is surprising.
From 1999 to 2010, the suicide rate among Americans ages 35 to 64 rose by nearly 30 percent, to 17.6 deaths per 100,000 people, up from 13.7. Although suicide rates are growing among both middle-aged men and women, far more men take their own lives. The suicide rate for middle-aged men was 27.3 deaths per 100,000, while for women it was 8.1 deaths per 100,000.
The most pronounced increases were seen among men in their 50s, a group in which suicide rates jumped by nearly 50 percent, to about 30 per 100,000. For women, the largest increase was seen in those ages 60 to 64, among whom rates increased by nearly 60 percent, to 7.0 per 100,000.
Some of the comments in spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +
Economic hopelessness. My brother committed suicide last July. He had just turned 60. He lost his IT job in the Great Recession in 2008. Despite hundreds of resumes being sent out, and a lifetime of IT experience, he got few interviews and no job offers. He spent down his 401(k) and when he died the only thing he owned was a beat-up car. We later found out he had a lot of credit card debt, with which he had tried to keep himself afloat. After four years of no job offers, unemployment running out, having no health insurance, etc., his dignity was shot. He had lost hope of ever working again. How I wish he had not committed suicide; how I would give anything and everything to have him back. I consider him one of the casualties of the Recession and when I read of the fat bonuses the banksters award themselves, I shake with rage that they have continued to prosper while people like my brother lost all hope and people like me lost a loved one.
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I don't dare think about it. I'm all my kids have (husband is dead, bless his memory). I have been called for many, many interviews-- my keying speed and experience look really good-- but I don't get even the courtesy of rejection letters. We have run through the college CDs and are living on my husband's 401(k), which makes us ineligible for SNAP or Medicaid, or maybe it's just my fault that I could not bear to fill out the applications which ask for your car's VIN and for copies of your bank statements and any cash in the house, etc. I know that safeguards are necessary to keep out the cheaters, but the process seemed too humiliating and I gave up. When the 401(k) money is gone, then I will have to try again. I don't know how to navigate "the system" and the other system that I thought I knew, where you demonstrated your skills, proved your work ethic, earned certificates and degrees, then applied and got hired-- that system is apparently gone. I do not know what we are going to do.
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Why is suicide usually looked upon as a desperate and forbidden act?
Can't we accept that in addition to poverty, loneliness, alienation, ill health life in world that is sometimes personally pointless means that death is a relief?
I believe the right to die, in a time and place (and wishfully peacefully without violence) is a basic human right.
We seem so terribly afraid of it.
We look for "factors" that contribute....
One would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to understand that in addition to money troubles or loss or grief...that there are places in people's hearts and souls that are not open to others...to analyze or tabulate or study.
And these "places" are not subject to life coaches, or the endless American drumbeat of "tomorrow, tomorrow," or cheer-up drugs.
Sometimes it is just time to end life.
Sometimes the struggle to pretend that all will be well becomes absurd and burdensome.
I think we need to do our best to love, understand and help all around us...but allow them to opt out, when they no longer feel able to endure.
Anyone else have aging parents in the baby boomer generation? The whole article is a worthwhile read, and the comments even more so. It does kind of feel like the aging are treated like discarded commodities. I don't know what changes would be most helpful to fix that. Are the younger generations headed to the same fate? I wonder if it is partly a symptom of "live fast, live hard" that we value in America.
In my eyes a big issue is health. It seems like there are so many people that before they even hit 50 they are decrepit, can barely get around, or are obese. Those health problems don't arise overnight. It is from many years of bad habits, and often times there is no quick fix, but only a slow a painstaking reversal that many are unwilling or unable to commit to, which is understandable but tragic.
Then of course there is mental health. I have very little confidence in our mental health system after being exposed to it for many years in different ways. Just like with bodily health, the focus is entirely on symptoms and disease, but when it comes to actual "health", the so called experts have little to offer. I've met very few mental health practitioners who I would describe as "mentally healthy". On a wider level, I feel that our constant exposure to fear, violence and sex does damage to us over time. Well, enough rambling. Feel free to ramble off your own ideas if you like.
Curious to hear if things are different or similar overseas.
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Guess, what is the primary means of committing suicide?
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On May 04 2013 06:13 farvacola wrote:
Guess, what is the primary means of committing suicide?
I would guess either overdose or firearm. I'm more interested in why than how, but if you were making a point feel free to elaborate.
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Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me  .
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On May 04 2013 06:18 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 06:13 farvacola wrote:
Guess, what is the primary means of committing suicide? I would guess either overdose or firearm. I'm more interested in why than how, but if you were making a point feel free to elaborate.
Pretty sure it is by firearm. An interesting statistic to look at would be how many of those were legally/illegally acquired. How many belonged to a parent/relative. So many numbers.
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On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me .
You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger.
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On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger.
50 years old with 40 more to go? Still a massive waste of time, lol. There are far worse things to fear than homelessness (I know I speak from a position of comfort).
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To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young.
Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond.
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On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond.
Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it.
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On May 04 2013 07:17 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger. 50 years old with 40 more to go? Still a massive waste of time, lol. There are far worse things to fear than homelessness (I know I speak from a position of comfort).
Yes there are other things to fear, such as being unable to provide for your family, and being treated as a useless burden to society. Remember what it felt like when you were little and nobody took you seriously and everyone bossed you around? That's what's in store for many people as they grow old.
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On May 04 2013 06:13 farvacola wrote:
Guess, what is the primary means of committing suicide?
I don't have exact statstics, but using the traffic to commit suicide is fairly common. It might be less prevalent in the States, what with firearms being a bit more, uhm, commonplace.
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On May 04 2013 07:38 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:17 Qwyn wrote:On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger. 50 years old with 40 more to go? Still a massive waste of time, lol. There are far worse things to fear than homelessness (I know I speak from a position of comfort). Yes there are other things to fear, such as being unable to provide for your family, and being treated as a useless burden to society. Remember what it felt like when you were little and nobody took you seriously and everyone bossed you around? That's what's in store for many people as they grow old.
I just can't contemplate why people would give up TRYING to live. Trying to do something. Ever hear the old adage try, try, try again? Why would you ever GIVE UP if you still have more time to go? Even being unable to provide for your family, life is not that bad as long as you try as hard as you can. I understand the opposite viewpoint, but I can't accept it.
The strongest people in the world are those who go through absolute hell and do not give up, even when the future seems impossibly bleak. I would argue that wanting to die is a weakness of the human condition.
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On May 04 2013 07:59 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:38 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:17 Qwyn wrote:On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger. 50 years old with 40 more to go? Still a massive waste of time, lol. There are far worse things to fear than homelessness (I know I speak from a position of comfort). Yes there are other things to fear, such as being unable to provide for your family, and being treated as a useless burden to society. Remember what it felt like when you were little and nobody took you seriously and everyone bossed you around? That's what's in store for many people as they grow old. I just can't contemplate why people would give up TRYING to live. Trying to do something. Ever hear the old adage try, try, try again? Why would you ever GIVE UP if you still have more time to go? Even being unable to provide for your family, life is not that bad as long as you try as hard as you can. I understand the opposite viewpoint, but I can't accept it. The strongest people in the world are those who go through absolute hell and do not give up, even when the future seems impossibly bleak. I would argue that wanting to die is a weakness of the human condition.
I understand what you're saying. Not sure if I agree that it is a weakness. Let's say it is though. Isn't it the duty of the strong the help the weak? What can we do to help the aging? I know there is the objection "help those who help themselves", but as many of the comments in the article show, people do try very hard, and to face constant rejection and failure on top of physical and mental decline must be very bitter to swallow.
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On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it.
It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works.
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On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works.
My dad has spoken to many high school classes about financial planning. He says that the kids don't even pretend to listen to him.
Telling kids doesn't work, they have to see it for themselves. I think the worst thing you can do to a child is pay for everything they want. Pay for what they need: food, shelter, clothing, and schooling. Anything else they want they can either wait for their birthday/christmas or buy themselves.
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Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life.
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I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess.
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On May 04 2013 11:02 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works. My dad has spoken to many high school classes about financial planning. He says that the kids don't even pretend to listen to him. Telling kids doesn't work, they have to see it for themselves. I think the worst thing you can do to a child is pay for everything they want. Pay for what they need: food, shelter, clothing, and schooling. Anything else they want they can either wait for their birthday/christmas or buy themselves.
That is really disheartening to hear. Is your dad there for just a day? I completely agree that making kids work for things they want will teach them the value of money and give them a good work ethic.
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You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD
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On May 04 2013 12:15 docvoc wrote:
Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life.
It's difficult enough to judge why people do things when they are alive. Even harder when they are no longer around to ask why. How do we know their reasons were stupid? But on a more practical note, what is the "treating life like they should" that these people must realize?
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On May 04 2013 13:22 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 12:15 docvoc wrote:
Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life. It's difficult enough to judge why people do things when they are alive. Even harder when they are no longer around to ask why. How do we know their reasons were stupid? But on a more practical note, what is the "treating life like they should" that these people must realize?
His point is that emotional weakness and tough times can cloud an individuals ability to accurately valuate their life, and this is why out of hand acceptance of suicide is to forget that even the strongest of us need the help of others from time to time.
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On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess.
I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other.
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On May 04 2013 13:30 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:22 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 12:15 docvoc wrote:
Generally it's an issue because people just do it for the stupidest reasons. I've lived very close to suicide, I've known kids my age die to it, I've known adults die to it. The difference is that when adults do it, it tends to be for the same stupid shit that can be fixed, just adult problems rather than kid problems. For the guy in comment, what if he lived with his parents for a little bit? What if he lived with his sister? The idea that sometimes life is pointless, just suffering, that nihilistic view, not an existentialist one, is dangerous in the hands of people that can't think clearly. Being honest here, my grandad committed a prolonged suicide, he stopped chemo, it hurt too bad. Another cancer patient, a doctor who owned the house my family lives in, committed suicide days before his "life deadline" because cancer wasn't going to kill him, he was determined of that. Those reasons, you know what fine, they were dying and they wanted peace when peace comes hard to find; the shit I see people commit suicide for is ridiculous. Life isn't like GG no re-ing from a game and then queuing up again, everyone knows that, but it seems like more and more people don't treat life like they should.
EDIT: by close I don't mean I was close, I mean like it's touched my life. It's difficult enough to judge why people do things when they are alive. Even harder when they are no longer around to ask why. How do we know their reasons were stupid? But on a more practical note, what is the "treating life like they should" that these people must realize? His point is that emotional weakness and tough times can cloud an individuals ability to accurately valuate their life, and this is why out of hand acceptance of suicide is to forget that even the strongest of us need the help of others from time to time.
I don't think anyone is arguing for out of hand acceptance of suicide. There would be no point in discussing it if so. I agree that no one is so strong that they never need help. What I'm wondering is what kind of help would be of most benefit to the people in the article.
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On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD
Are their suicide rates high historically?
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On May 04 2013 13:35 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess. I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other.
The simplest way to say it is that we are exceptionalist. We always think our situation is different, and that we have special privilege to consider things more seriously. We're only half wrong. Our situation is different from the oversimplified one our 'value' is concerned with. It's just that so is everyone else's.
I made a long response about what I think the nature of suicide is and why people do it, but I think I'll try again ;p It's like this:
1: We crave validation and respect (whether that's socialized or by nature)
2: We crave it more when we don't think we have it.
3: Whether we have it or not, we react violently when someone is rude to us (in our imagination or reality).
4: If we believe that person is correct (again, whether imagined or not), we can become violent to ourselves.
5: Therefore, a strong support group that can give us validation during times of perceived failure can be absolutely critical.
6: No support group to intervene means we begin to believe it is impossible to gain one.
7: Interest in everything else declines.
8: Learned helplessness and self-fulfilled prophecies begin preventing us from giving honest effort in subsequent attempts to gain validation.
9: Total collapse of self-worth. Dark thoughts. etc.
What we believe will create that sense of validation, whether it is a partner or grades or a good job is of less consequence. The partner, the grades, the good job are thought of as means to something else much more important. The security provided in strong relationships with other human beings (platonic or not). Our relationship with our society and whether or not we feel like we are living up to what it says we are supposed to. Even if you have a good job or a family, if you feel like you're playing a role and it's not you that has the good job, but the role, the image you've created, that's almost the same as not being respected or validated, because the role is validated, not you.
If we want South Korea as our example, how many kids feel like they'll have no friends and no future, that their parents will all but disown them if they don't get into the university of choice? Some stick around to find out that maybe there's more to life, but a lot get into those thoughts that the only respectable life is the one which makes the grade ;p
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On May 04 2013 07:02 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 06:53 Qwyn wrote:Well, if people decide to kill themselves, that's their choice. Just a waste of time if you ask me . You never know how you'll feel when you're 50+ years old and facing homelessness. No one ever thinks it'll happen to them when they're younger.
Suicide is bringing misery to everyone that cares about you. Its no way out and should not be seen like this. Its everyones own choice, but with suicide things don't get better, you only take the chance away to make them better.
From a youtube beat:
People everywhere startin to lose their ground
We see insanity take everyone down
We've lost ourselves to the madness within
Got no reason, or so we think, to continue livin'
We don't have the right minds to believe in ourselves
Callin' people your enemy when the true enemy is yourself
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Sure, some people might say suicide is selfish and hurts everyone else, but isn't it more selfish for others to force them to live? What someone wants to do with their life is their own perogative, even if it is to end it. It sucks to be affected by it, but that's how the world is, other people's decisions sometimes will affect you and be unpleasant, doesn't mean you can take their decision making ability away. At least they know exactly what they're getting. People that die in car accidents didn't necessarily want to die and weren't expecting it just because they got in a car, and it's much more easily preventable too. I think the number of casualties from car accidents, with a lot of innocent victims injured or killed, is a much higher priority issue than some people wanting to inflict harm on themselves. Not that we shouldn't support things like readily available counseling, etc., but acting holier than thou about how [you're] hurting those [you] know, [you're] throwing away [your] future, [you're] doing it for stupid reasons, I don't understand why [you] would want it, or any other similar cliche certainly isn't the kind helping they need.
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On May 04 2013 13:41 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD Are their suicide rates high historically?
Korea's suicide rates have been high since the rise of the salaryman I think. Which would be the late 1900s
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On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works.
Any basic business/finance class should give you a good enough understanding of how the system works on a whole for you to make competent financial decisions. The problem seems to be that school has geared so many kids to the "study, test, forget" cycle that even when they learn things that are useful, they don't apply any of it to their own lives.
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Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
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On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun.
Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
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If you feel like killing yourself, come visit me and I will make you the best sandwich you have ever eaten and show you why it's a bad idea to kill yourself.
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In the US suicide is at a higher rate, but it's still far lower than deaths by many diseases: eg Cancer and Heart Disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate
The problem is that suicide isn't really treated as a problem whereas everyone recognizes that cars are dangerous. I personally think they should be replaced as a mode of transportation but I guess flight is too difficult.
Instead people blame the victims much like the rich blame the poor for being poor.
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On May 04 2013 23:26 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun. Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
he is great I agree 
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Pretty sad to see that the suicide rates are that high  That said banning guns would most likely not stop people from commiting suicide though as ive seen other people have claimed. If you are desperate to kill yourself lack of guns will not stop that.
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I can't find the article but I recall reading one which talked about huge increases in car safety having effectively slashed car accident death numbers way down. Although suicide on the rise is a problem in America, especially with the lack of effective mental health available to people in need.
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United States4006 Posts
On May 04 2013 11:02 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works. My dad has spoken to many high school classes about financial planning. He says that the kids don't even pretend to listen to him. Telling kids doesn't work, they have to see it for themselves. I think the worst thing you can do to a child is pay for everything they want. Pay for what they need: food, shelter, clothing, and schooling. Anything else they want they can either wait for their birthday/christmas or buy themselves.
I took Economics my junior year of high school. The teacher was my favorite high school teacher, he taught nothing but how to plan for our futures and only taught enough market theory stuff for us to invest wisely. Really cool class, we had to do a real life project and practice budgeting. Most useful class I ever took in high school.
Every school should make that kind of class mandatory.
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On May 04 2013 14:53 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:35 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 12:27 Chef wrote:
I think that culture plays a large role in suicide. Many people say suicide is selfish, and many people say that people are egotistical and self-centered generally. In movies, in music and in stories death is romanticized, even suicides. However much we hate to admit it, we emulate fictional examples as much as real ones. We invent meaning where there is none. In a land of growing technology where far from everyone just having a TV, everyone has constant internet access and unlimited media to expose themselves to, of course we are sculpted to a greater extent by these technologies than previous times. I never hear so much about suicide in countries with little technology, but that's probably because we just don't care.
It's amusing to talk about people who've worked all their lives finding themselves unemployed, when youth unemployment (or at very least underemployment) is such a hot topic. Thanks for the incredibly depressing thread, I guess. I agree that culture is probably significant. It's odd that in some ways our culture is so anti-death (keeping people alive at all costs regardless of life quality) and anti-suicide, yet it also romanticizes and glamorizes it like you say. Perhaps a more neutral view of death would be more positive than having two opposing extremes. Kind of similar to our sexual prudishness on one hand and constant bombardment with it on the other. The simplest way to say it is that we are exceptionalist. We always think our situation is different, and that we have special privilege to consider things more seriously. We're only half wrong. Our situation is different from the oversimplified one our 'value' is concerned with. It's just that so is everyone else's. I made a long response about what I think the nature of suicide is and why people do it, but I think I'll try again ;p It's like this: 1: We crave validation and respect (whether that's socialized or by nature) 2: We crave it more when we don't think we have it. 3: Whether we have it or not, we react violently when someone is rude to us (in our imagination or reality). 4: If we believe that person is correct (again, whether imagined or not), we can become violent to ourselves. 5: Therefore, a strong support group that can give us validation during times of perceived failure can be absolutely critical. 6: No support group to intervene means we begin to believe it is impossible to gain one. 7: Interest in everything else declines. 8: Learned helplessness and self-fulfilled prophecies begin preventing us from giving honest effort in subsequent attempts to gain validation. 9: Total collapse of self-worth. Dark thoughts. etc. What we believe will create that sense of validation, whether it is a partner or grades or a good job is of less consequence. The partner, the grades, the good job are thought of as means to something else much more important. The security provided in strong relationships with other human beings (platonic or not). Our relationship with our society and whether or not we feel like we are living up to what it says we are supposed to. Even if you have a good job or a family, if you feel like you're playing a role and it's not you that has the good job, but the role, the image you've created, that's almost the same as not being respected or validated, because the role is validated, not you. If we want South Korea as our example, how many kids feel like they'll have no friends and no future, that their parents will all but disown them if they don't get into the university of choice? Some stick around to find out that maybe there's more to life, but a lot get into those thoughts that the only respectable life is the one which makes the grade ;p
The list seems reasonable. That's why I think it makes sense that the aging population here is particularly vulnerable. Validation and respect are within grasp during your prime, and then suddenly, past a certain age, it is near impossible to find (not for all, but I would say many). Most have only family as support group if anything, but being taken care of by them is often viewed as failure, or an imposition.
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On May 04 2013 18:36 ktimekiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:41 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD Are their suicide rates high historically? Korea's suicide rates have been high since the rise of the salaryman I think. Which would be the late 1900s
I know it sounds ethnocentric but I wonder how much America's exported culture has impacted happiness in countries that are heavily influenced.
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On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living.
They may keep living, but they won't necessarily want to live. I would much rather try to give people a hope that their life is worth something, rather than merely taking away their ability to end it. Numbers can only tell so much... we can reduce numbers of deaths, yet not lower human suffering.
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On May 05 2013 02:41 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 18:36 ktimekiller wrote:On May 04 2013 13:41 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 13:11 ktimekiller wrote:
You think America has suicide problems, look at Korea XD Are their suicide rates high historically? Korea's suicide rates have been high since the rise of the salaryman I think. Which would be the late 1900s I know it sounds ethnocentric but I wonder how much America's exported culture has impacted happiness in countries that are heavily influenced.
Barring the obvious issues in measuring such a thing, what good does this perspective do us? Are we to somehow restrict or control the pervasion of American media in foreign countries, or are we looking for some means of assigning culpability? I think in many ways this strategy is highly offensive towards foreign cultures in that it assumes a degree of "immaturity" insofar as cultural authenticity is concerned. It is as though you are arguing that American culture is somehow so strong that it overrides any native cultural influences, "Oh look, their culture isn't unique enough in my eyes, it must be because they are being made perverse through exposure to American media that they are committing suicide." Many Asian cultures have long histories of different attitudes towards suicide than the West; I think it might be more useful to start there.
Furthermore, I think this sort of perspective becomes less and less meaningful as globalization and the long arms of the internet reach out ever wider. The boundaries of what defines a nation's "culture" are no longer very neat; TL is a perfect example of this phenomena.
On May 05 2013 02:48 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. They may keep living, but they won't necessarily want to live. I would much rather try to give people a hope that their life is worth something, rather than merely taking away their ability to end it. Numbers can only tell so much... we can reduce numbers of deaths, yet not lower human suffering.
The point is that "easy suicide" allows many to make irreversible choices in moments of despair that might otherwise be overcome by the words of a friend, the care of a loved one, or merely a bit more time as they contemplate their desire to die. When guns are around, the time frame is shortened, leading to an increased rate of successful suicide. Additionally, most other methods of suicide are far more difficult to perform correctly; even the overdose runs into the issue of the bodies desire to regurgitate fatal substances.
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On May 04 2013 23:26 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun. Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
I like him a lot too. I think a big part of his wish to die was from drug addiction but I don't know him personally either. The article does talk about addiction to pain-killers as being a possible factor in increased suicide rates.
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On May 05 2013 02:08 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 11:02 SnipedSoul wrote:On May 04 2013 10:37 TheSwamp wrote:On May 04 2013 07:33 Mothra wrote:On May 04 2013 07:20 TheSwamp wrote:To be fair, baby boomers have never been regarded as the most responsible generation. I'm sure health is a factor in suicides, but money is definitely a huge contributor. I think you have a point with the "live fast, die young" mentality of such people. The problem with that way of life is not everyone dies young. Ps I missed my bus stop while writing this. So you better fucking respond. Agreed, but nevertheless we want them to have a happy and comfortable old age in spite of past irresponsibility. And I wonder if our generations are going to fare any better. Sorry you missed bus, please don't do anything drastic because of it. It's cool. I got to walk a little extra today. I don't think the current generation of 20 somethings and teenagers will be much better off, unfortunately. One of the major problems is there really isn't a lot of "how to financially prepare for your future/retirement" courses in high school. (If someone has had a class like this I would love to hear if you think it helped you). Kids are just thrown into the world without basic knowledge of how money really works. My dad has spoken to many high school classes about financial planning. He says that the kids don't even pretend to listen to him. Telling kids doesn't work, they have to see it for themselves. I think the worst thing you can do to a child is pay for everything they want. Pay for what they need: food, shelter, clothing, and schooling. Anything else they want they can either wait for their birthday/christmas or buy themselves. I took Economics my junior year of high school. The teacher was my favorite high school teacher, he taught nothing but how to plan for our futures and only taught enough market theory stuff for us to invest wisely. Really cool class, we had to do a real life project and practice budgeting. Most useful class I ever took in high school. Every school should make that kind of class mandatory.
I agree that they need to teach this kind of stuff. Even nutrition, cooking, how to wash clothes etc. Many people do not learn at home. So much of school is just idle time and busywork anyway... couldn't they teach us useful skills like this?
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The more rational society becomes, the more suicides there will be. Because suicide in many cases is more rational than clinging to life, which is done out of fear of the unknown, or hell, or whatever.
Leaving this life in a timely manner is a good decision. It's true there are people who did it in an irrational/emotional moment, but it is also true that there are people who weigh the idea for years before deciding on it. Then there are people who are suffering immensely, either physically or psychologically, who can reach the obvious conclusion that their remaining days will be more pain than they are worth. When the time comes, I will take my leave, unless life gets me first. And I'm sure there will be ignorant people who will call me selfish or stupid. What's stupid is being in perpetual denial of our inevitable fate.
When you are dead, you won't give a fuck whether you died at 81 or 82. I promise.
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On May 04 2013 23:26 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun. Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course.
I also promise you that there are no dead people who regret missing out on future happiness.
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On May 05 2013 16:12 yeahImback wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 23:26 Bommes wrote:On May 04 2013 20:47 sc4k wrote:
Anyone who reads Cracked.com regularly knows they did an article recently highlighting how if guns are banned, the suicide rate drops and stays down permanently. The same happens when nets are put on big bridges. With the lack of an 'easy' way out some people just keep living. My favourite musician, John Frusciante, said in an interview a long time ago that if he had a gun during a period of time when he was a drug addict he is 100% certain that he would have killed himself. He wanted nothing more than a gun. Today he is probably among the happiest people on the whole planet, at least as far as I can tell based on his music & appearance. I don't know him personally of course. I also promise you that there are no dead people who regret missing out on future happiness.
But there are alive people who miss out on the happiness, that was kind of the point I was trying to make.
He has millions of fans because of his music, nothing of that would have happened if he was dead.
edit:
Also, you can't promise me anything, because you can't know anything about whether or not there is any form of existence after death or how our life influences that existence. Your "promises" are really obnoxious, please stop using them all the time.
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EPT
