As I sit and watch an old OSL game between Bisu and Zero I feel the need to write this to you. I don't know who wins this game, it doesn't really matter to me and actually that's most of the fun of watching the game. Whatever I do know is that this game will be filled with epic battles, turning points, tactics and interesting units. Maybe if I am lucky I will see dark swarms and reavers, lurker contains from a high ground that is actually meaningful in some way, storms that actually look cool and that encourage a positional stalemate break of sorts. Maybe the game will end in some hydra bust that makes Bisu fans cry because PvZ is a delicate matchup. Maybe Bisu will win the game and people will shout for joy. Even I will be impressed because I can recognize talent in the game and have to respect that.
I don't even watch SC2 unless I am truly bored. Even Flash who I loved cannot keep me awake to watch a game with medivacs. Yes, a healing dropship with incredible speed sounds like it will make the coolest drops. Sometimes there even are cool drops. I enjoyed Fantasy v Nestea (that was before incredible speed though.) It's a good idea, I will give you guys that much. But when the 200/200 battle is about to go down and there's 15 useless flying things over the ball of bio about to fight in a world where high ground will be meaningless (really, the maps could be flat after a certain point in game, I don't care what people say) and then the battle begins and there's 15 glowing beams covering the fight with the medivacs just awkwardly floating there over everything as well praying the battle is won and not doing anything but floating there, I am just baffled.
Who thought that was a good idea? When I watch PL and each game is "wow sick macro" or "wow sick proxy", one battle and it's over followed by 10 minutes of commercials and then to come back to a replay (!?!?) of the same boring game I just watched for a couple of minutes, then to further wait until the 2 progamers are ready to get the next boring one battle (short if build orders are crossed, long and meaningless if they aren't) game!? Is there even really a flow to SC2? Isn't it just go for the kill asap pray it works? Yeah BW games STARTED kind of slow, yes you guys were right to try to speed up some aspects of the game, but now nothing even matters. Just fucking balls against balls and floating shit with lame game sounds.
I mean I understand the game being worse, I don't think you did it on purpose and for all I know, just *imo*, but EVEN the unit sounds?! Attack sounds?! wtfffff. Why such a downgrade.
I miss when Bisu would keep a probe alive in a zerg's base for countless hours it seemed like (when I was rooting for Hoejja kekeke) and cursing his name for being so good. Now it's like "oh sorry Bisu, we just added this thing called a queen you can't scout or do anything anymore neither can anyone else, that was too interesting for the viewers"
"Sorry Flash you can't use your famous star scan hack scans anymore because mules > everything else"
"Sorry Jaedong, you just suck now, I guess queens didn't help you"
Oh but Taeja! He beat Innovation. That was fun to watch. But not any BW TvT. And how lucky was that anyways? Oh ForGG advanced from WCS or is it GSL or wtf is Blizzard doing? The WCS European group A. Just call it GSL Europe! Why is it WCS GSL? Did no one want GSL Europe, GSL America, and GSL KOREA?! Now it's World Championship Series Korea so that sounds like each country has it's own individual WCS or something? Is this WCG? Can't it just be GSL Korea because that's where the GSL came from!? Without them there would be no reason to watch anyways because Koreans basically MADE esports? I don't even know. Just don't want to give. Where's the OSL? What the hell happened to smiling crowds large crowds at PL?
I know there's plenty of people who watch SC2. I watch SC2. But I'm not going to pretend any of it is really good or that I watch for reasons other than boredom or to see Flash v Life. Or Stephano v Bisu. But none of those games will be better than the average BW game. Now I don't really try to go out of my way to watch anything.
In conclusion, please actually do something cool for LoV that doesn't make the game a ball vs a ball, where you can't really have more than 3 mining bases, on a map that is flat, with a bunch of flying units that are lame and don't do anything. And colossi.
Do not expect LotV to be the saving grace of SC2, after all it's the same guy with the same ideas from WoL and HotS who will be designing it... In my humble opinion SC2 will always be just like its maps: flat and uninteresting.
I wouldn't mind SC2 at all if we still had the BW Korean pro-scene alive. The football-like crowd, the fangirls and the general feeling of real sports that BW had was simply mind blowing. Hell, you even had korean celebrities attending to important games.
But no, they (matchfixing + Blizzard dick moves on KeSPA + Kpop) took it from us.
SC2 gets some awesome games from time to time. Maru's games vs Soulkey were amazing, not to mention a while back Gumiho vs MMA ended up being some of the best esports games I've ever seen.
You know, as a BW follower, I still come back from time to time to check how SC2 is doing. I followed it when it first came out but then it didnt take too long for things to become boring. It was clear that SC2 was no BW. But many were ok with it, some disagreed and wanted change so I did what I think was the best move - move on (to Dota 2).
But once more, I check back and read how the scene is doing. Have things improved, gotten worse or merely stayed the same? And it seems like it hasnt really changed. If the philosophy behind the game is still same old boring old, then I'll make sure to come back and take a quick peek when the last expansion has come out. Maybe things will be different or maybe not. We will see.
If you're so bored that you consider watching starcraft 2 to be the most boring thing, yet you do it anyway then you need to reevaluate what you are doing with your life. If you don't like it then don't do it.
As long as DB is at the helm expect more of the same in LoV. If you want an interesting esport game to play/follow do what TL staff and others here have mentioned, go to dota 2.
Just wanted to echo your points. BW is way more fun to watch, I hit up snipealot a few times a week and watched the whole ThSL. SC2 just doesn't cut it, man, watching it is soooo boring like 90% of the time. It's such a shame, too. Really tears me up
Also, I understand there are SC2 fans that would say "if you don't like it and you still do it, there's a disconnect there and nothing's wrong." Well, personally I don't watch it anymore. As a SC:BW fan for over a decade, I want SC2 to be a better game, to live up to its predecessor, but to me it's just sub-par.
I agree. I am sick of X ball v Y ball, somewhat spread and fight. From time to time there will be an sc2 game that is good, but I remember more good scbw games. I pretty much play DotA 2 at the moment. Similar risk-reward to scbw. If anything, I still play wc3 from time to time.
Edit: At the moment watch WCS EU, and I have to wonder if there is more than one hotkey being used for army as they group up as one hotkey.
Blizzard will never make the fundamental changes needed to better the game. Why should they? The community really only cares about two things: balance, and more Westerners playing in tournaments. Make the deathballs relatively balanced, subsidize some Western tournaments, and people are happy.
I didn't bother with watching SC2 for months. Didn't watch any BW either. Recently I watched some SC2 again - and I felt like everyone involved was making fun of me. The commentators, the players, Blizzard. Have you noticed how Tasteless and Artosis have so little to say about the game that they talk about completely random unrelated stuff until one of the players hits 100 supply? Then they say "ok back to the game, it's starting to get interesting". The game hasn't even improved at all in the last months. In fact all the new stuff in HotS seems to make it worse. I'm watching BW again. TL Attack is fun though.
I say redo the graphics part, BW is the best game I've ever seen, and if you make some more campaigns the casuals will be happy seeing stuff blow up in HD, and the pros can build a lasting pro-scene. Imagine BW getting the same history as tennis, being played in all countries on earth for dozens of years, every time just getting new SP campaigns and graphics upgrades, while the pros just keep on going... GG BW FIGHTING ^^
SC2 by design is a 300 supply cap game constrained in a 200 supply cap body.
Furthermore, maps (and the game) should optimally have been designed/balanced to be 1½ times the size they are today if Blizzard truly were looking to create the best game possible with keeping SC2's fundamental design intact.
That's all I have to say. The game was created by a bunch of people who knew nothing about esports and of the consequences of their design actions. Some of it they've been able to patch up. Some of it simply can't be patched up. It's admirable that they tried to set their own mark on the RTS genre by redesigning the game. But blindly copying certain facets (supply cap and map sizes) while blindly throwing away other established conventions (whole economic design of BW) is really not the way you go about designing the best competitive RTS possible.
The only one who might have remotely had a clue about competitive gaming in that design team is David Kim. And I don't think he was hired at an early stage, nor do I think he had enough guts/knowledge to speak up about certain things.
Back in the WoW days and before that, Blizzard's game designers actually appeared to have cutting edge knowledge of the game culture du jour. Rob Pardo was a fucking EverQuest addict, a high level guild leader, and that's basically the story of WoW's entire conception.
Dustin Browder and SC2 design team? I'd be surprised if more than a handful people in that team had played any Starcraft outside of the campaign.
D3 design team? They probably played D2, but I'd be surprised if there were many true grinders there.
Blizzard's games actually feel unfinished when they ship them nowadays. It took them until HotS to provide basic battlenet functionality. Let's not even talk about D3.
Hope for their sake that the really talented and passionate designers are working on Titan. If Titan turns out to be just another run of the mill MMO they're in deep deep trouble.
He captures some key points of eSports, but I think he entirely overlooks some reasons that Brood War was so successful as a spectator sport.
For example (though it's been a while since I watched the talk), there's no mention of visceral aspects. A big part of BW's watchability comes from watching things blow up. Most death animations and sounds are explosive and memorable: especially marines, dragoons, zerglings, etc. The availability of powerful AoE (lurkers, mines, storm, etc.) helps to trigger these all at once, which is inherently fun to watch. In my limited experience with SC2, this visceral aspect is almost entirely missing.
Another thing not mentioned is one way that BW is more interesting than non-e sports: traps. Mines and (stop) lurkers are super exciting. SC2 did introduce some traps (burrowed banelings), but IMX they are not as common or exciting.
He captures some key points of eSports, but I think he entirely overlooks some reasons that Brood War was so successful as a spectator sport.
For example (though it's been a while since I watched the talk), there's no mention of visceral aspects. A big part of BW's watchability comes from watching things blow up. Most death animations and sounds are explosive and memorable: especially marines, dragoons, zerglings, etc. The availability of powerful AoE (lurkers, mines, storm, etc.) helps to trigger these all at once, which is inherently fun to watch. In my limited experience with SC2, this visceral aspect is almost entirely missing.
Another thing not mentioned is one way that BW is more interesting than non-e sports: traps. Mines and (stop) lurkers are super exciting. SC2 did introduce some traps (burrowed banelings), but IMX they are not as common or exciting.
I'll say one thing, nothing will ever top the dragoon death sound effect and animation. It was glorious.
Edit : Though now that I think about it, Nydus Worms have an awesome death sequence.
SC2 traps are not as relevant since they boosted game speed/progression so much through macro mechanics.
If we liken BW to chess as we like to do, SC2 can be described more as speed/blitz chess with a 5-15 minute time control.
"To be honest, I consider [bullet chess] a bit moronic, and therefore I never play it." – Vladimir Kramnik "Blitz chess kills your ideas." – Bobby Fischer "Playing rapid chess, one can lose the habit of concentrating for several hours in serious chess. That is why, if a player has big aims, he should limit his rapidplay in favour of serious chess." – Vladimir Kramnik
You can just watch BW, if SC2 sucks so bad ;D there's Sonic Starleague, bunch of foreign tours, TLS2 and 3 and the grand championship coming up this year, some Afreeca BJ leagues and tours, and endless players streaming endless games on afreeca and twitch.
On April 25 2013 09:04 Birdie wrote: You can just watch BW, if SC2 sucks so bad ;D there's Sonic Starleague, bunch of foreign tours, TLS2 and 3 and the grand championship coming up this year, some Afreeca BJ leagues and tours, and endless players streaming endless games on afreeca and twitch.
True but the game will never be played at the highest level anymore. The highest level now is short of pre SC2. Which is fine but...
And yes maybe I shouldn't sit around to watch the occasional SC2 game or try to catch a few games of a series or tournament... but it's habit. TL is my nighttime stomping ground for better or for worse :')
On April 25 2013 11:02 Emzeeshady wrote: I think that instead of trying to find things in SC2 that entertain you, you are instead trying to find design problems that bother you. If you had a different attitude perhaps you would enjoy watching more.
Oh please
for fuck's sake
don't give us that shit
I tried to like SC2. I wanted to like it. But it's fucking bad compared to Brood War (in my opinion). I don't even think it's a good game in its own right. I'd rather play WarCraft III or a good fighting game like Guilty Gear.
Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking. I prefer to use my brain, which tells me that SC2 will only continue to get marginally better, just like it got marginally better with HotS. It'll still be bad. First of all, its track record is horrible. It hasn't gotten much better over the three years it's been worked on. After three years, StarCraft 1 was already a good game, and its last balance patch had come out.
But more importantly, the game itself just doesn't have any potential. They would have to re make the entire game and change fundamental parts of it, which they will not do.
Just accept that some people don't like SC2, not because they are biased or because they didn't give it a chance. Some people just honestly think it's a bad game.
Edit: As for how much of a chance I gave it, I played it for like 2 years. And you can't tell me that I didn't understand the game enough to appreciate it, because I beat pros and won a bunch of online tournaments with cash prizes. I was also top 200, and then GM when that league was created.
Second edit: Do you think we don't want to like SC2? Of course we want to like the most popular real time strategy game yet, that has tournaments every day and the most skilled real time strategy game players in the world right now. The only reason we can't is because there is no substitute for Brood War.
On April 25 2013 11:02 Emzeeshady wrote: I think that instead of trying to find things in SC2 that entertain you, you are instead trying to find design problems that bother you. If you had a different attitude perhaps you would enjoy watching more.
Seriously HOTS is a great game. I never played nor seriously watched BW and I can't comment on how good it was but maybe you are holding you expectations to high? I find SC2 very fun to play and watch and you probably would too if you gave it a chance.
Also, have faith that the game will keep getting better. HOTS was already a large improvement on Wings and with every update the game will become better and better.
That's the thing, for us who watched BW at the highest level it is simply impossible to be resigned with the state of SC2.
To get an idea, imagine that the SC2 scene is matured and the game is freaking awesome. You have been following the korean pro-scene for 10 years and you love the game. Then, for whatever reason, someone kills the SC2 scene and replaces it with Commander and Conquer. All the pros and teams you loved were forced to either transition or retire. You watch Commander and Conquer proleague but you are clearly intrigued as to why the fuck would anyone ever replace SC2 with that so much inferior game.
If I didn't have some kind of faith in Blizzard or get some kind of enjoyment from watching SC2 I wouldn't have been here to complain in the first place 8|. Yeah they probably won't hear me but worth a shot.
Voddy and Lalush say exactly what I want to say perfectly.
I tried to get into Wings of Liberty many, many times. Even got the Korean and European versions (of course the Korean one was useless cause the lag was too much to deal with). I really tried to get into it. But no matter how much I tried, I just couldn't force myself to like the game. Meanwhile, every time I'd wander back to Brood War, I'd find myself enjoying it. It has nothing to do with nostalgia or anything like that, I didn't grow up playing Brood War at all.
Heck, I played a lot of the HotS beta and even enjoyed it quite a bit, but it just faded away pretty quickly and I don't even touch the game anymore except for the occasional 4v4. It makes me sad because I love the community, and a lot of my friends still play the game.. but it's just hard for me to enjoy it for some reason. And I'm glad to know I'm not alone in that aspect.
I don't like watching starcraft 2 much, I play a shit load and used to play even more when I was kinda sad and stuck in the house all day, watching it feels boring but watching any game seems boring to me. Watching bw, watching lol, watching dota, watching lets plays of whatever.
However when I watch starcraft 2 I watch it in a similar way to a game of chess... only that unlike a game of chess I can see both sides while they can't see the other. It's fun because I always think: "what would I do in that situation ?" and than go holy shit when they do something I wouldn't have thought of or " why did he make that move", and I try to analyze the information he has that made him do it and sometimes the move is wrong other times is right, it's fun to see "why" not "what happens".
I never feel "thrilled" while watching starcraft because it's no a gladiator trying to kill a lion in the arena and dying if he fails . Sometime a match has a bit of meaning to me if a friend plays, if someone I know or played against on the ladder is playing and inside I want him to loss or win but alas those are very few game and far in between.
And i fell like commentators screaming and cameras moving every 5 second doesn't fit my way of watching.
If you just want to see battle after battle, micro management and constant engagement you can watch AOE, you can watch BW, you can watch most Dota and RTS's. Because you don't need very skilled players to attack in 3 places at once, you need very skilled player do attack in 3 places at once at the right time with the right units and that, I feel, is why starcraft can be considered superior to those games, because you actually have people thinking hours upon hours every day of those little strategical tweaks and timings that make them so much better than everyone else... and if you can't enjoy the game for that I don't think you ever will.
And it's not blizzard fault, they made an RTS in a time when there were non, they gave it graphics good enough to be compared to that of a first person game, they sold a shit load of copies and gave you custom games, modding tools, ladder, non competitive play and a campaign. They maintain the servers, they didn't put any money grabs in, the the expansion for an expansion price although the content could have equaled another full game. They threw in a few millions at the competitive scene and let it evolve. It's a game made by the guys that made Red Alter, Command and Conquare, AOE, BW and Warcraft. And quite frankly I can hardly see another team doing a better job.
If you don't want to watch starcraft 2 that is fine, but blizzard doesn't "own" anything to their fans when it comes to starcraft like they do in franchises like Diablo and WoW. They deliver a great product and supported it, it's not Brood War and it will never be.
If all you wanted was BW with better graphics and a few balance tweaks than you have about 3 sc2 mods that do exactly that. If all you wanted is to watch BW than you can go watch BW, there are literally archives of matches that will last you half a lifetime. If all you wanted was to complain about starcraft 2 not being fun for you to watch/play than you made your point as so many before you have , but it won't change, the game is made as it is and will remain as it is in the future... if you don't like it don't watch and/or play it.
On April 25 2013 21:46 Aterons_toss wrote: (...) If you don't want to watch starcraft 2 that is fine, but blizzard doesn't "own" anything to their fans when it comes to starcraft like they do in franchises like Diablo and WoW. They deliver a great product and supported it, it's not Brood War and it will never be. (...)
It is in Blizzard's hand to make SC2 as good as BW, it's their duty after actively contributing to kill off a perfectly great korean pro scene. Of course match fixing and kpop were the biggest contributors to the end of professional BW, but it is not hard to imagine that the constant suing also played a huge role in scaring away the sponsors.
In the end, all of us SC2 and BW fans want the same thing: an amazing and perfect RTS game with a flourishing professional scene. Something BW already was, something SC2 is struggling so hard to be.
Why replace what's perfect with something which only promisses "to be good"?
EPT
