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Turns out Margaret Thatcher died today. I personally am standing as a councillor of the Green Party, in an area of Stoke on Trent that was a coal mining community which was destroyed in large part by Iron Ladies' Government.
I am too young to really know what it was like to grow up or live during the 80s, through the destruction of whole communities, caused in large part by Thatcher's governments, so take what you read with a pinch of salt, I only express my personal opinion.
The most poignant criticism of all conservative politics is that it is what it says on the tin.
It is an ideology that says that the world is as good as it can be. That it wants to conserve the world as it is.
That there can't be more trust, more hope and more happiness. That the world can't or shouldn't be fairer.
Thatcher's government was the symbol of this ideology that accepted the world as subpar, said it was not to be controlled in this way, that it couldn't be controlled, while still making up, on average, the richest members of society.
If you like Thatcher you give in to abandoning principles of true human equality, of a life worth respecting for every individual on this planet, rather than proclaiming the freedoms of minority world while paying lip service the majority world.
I won't do it, I won't call Thatcher a "great politician", whatever that means.
Strength of character is not necessarily a strength, when the good you are doing benefits the privileged few, rather than the disenfranchised many.
An impressive human being maybe, a great politician no. Superintendence, manipulation, and achieving what you set out to do isn't what makes what should be the honourable task of being a politician great.
It sucks that a human being died. I won't cheer when a human being dies, especially not one who no longer was in power in a meaningful way. But I will never hide my criticisms for the sake of death alone. She didn't make the decisions she made when she died, she made them in life, and I criticise who she was then.
Edit: Removed some absolutes.
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i dont know much about british politics and margaret thatcher in particular, but i cringe when i look on my facebook feed filled with people saying stuff about how thatcher was such a great person, etc etc, just because she died, even though they probably dont know jack shit about her.
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On April 09 2013 00:39 ieatkids5 wrote:
i dont know much about british politics and margaret thatcher in particular, but i cringe when i look on my facebook feed filled with people saying stuff about how thatcher was such a great person, etc etc, just because she died, even though they probably dont know jack shit about her.
when someone dies people will always remember how good he/she was, is a universal law. it doesnt matter who he/she was or what they did.
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The most poignant criticism of all conservative politics is that it is what it says on the tin.
It is an ideology that says that the world is as good as it can be. That it wants to conserve the world as it is.
That there can't be more trust, more hope and more happiness. That the world can't or shouldn't be fairer.
Thatcher's government was the symbol of this ideology that accepted the world as subpar, said it was not to be controlled in this way, that it couldn't be controlled, while still making up, on average, the richest members of society.
If you like Thatcher you give in to abandoning principles of true human equality, of a life worth respecting for every individual on this planet, rather than proclaiming the freedoms of minority world while paying lip service the majority world.
You say you're a councillor. I know there are some politicians who demonize their opponents, and paint them as being against everything good and decent about humanity, when really its an exaggeration of their position and those people simply have different views on what makes a society great.
I feel like this is exactly what I see in your post. By what standards do you claim the mantra of *all conservative politics* to be that we should accept mediocrity? What conservative says the world can't be fairer, or better? At least, from the conservative government in Canada, it seems like they think the world can be a better place. But they think in one-dimensional terms, and think the only thing that matters is more wealth.
The republicans in the US...I have never heard what you say applied to them from any news outlet or source of democratic criticism. Republicans simply believe in the power of the free market, and are under the illusion that unions cause more problems than they solve, and as does government (at least in theory, I know republicans can be contradictory with regard to government control). They constantly talk about how the free market will create enormous economic growth, lower prices for everyone, and basically a better standard of living. How is this accepting what we have now?
Your post is *exactly* what turns people off of politics, in my opinion. Its because its filled with rhetoric, and a sort of demonizing, rather than an honest appraisal of a person's position and a legitimate, scientific debate on the merits of each other's position. So we just get people yelling at each other, misrepresenting each other, and to be honest I really couldn't care less, while they try to appeal to the majority with their simple-minded arguments and attacks on each other.
Not saying that you do all these things, but I wish you would recognize that you are basically categorizing conservatives as people who have no interest in making the world a better place, which is a massive, sweeping generalization based on no evidence (as far as I can tell, and you didn't bring up any yourself).
People always wonder why the youth are disengaged from politics, I think this is part of the reason. But the youth aren't even a good standard anyway lol. They're all slightly delusional and probably highly misinformed/idealistic, what with their support of Ron Paul and his gold standard ideas show. But I do love that our generation cares about freedom, and I hope that doesn't die.
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On April 09 2013 00:50 Topin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:39 ieatkids5 wrote:
i dont know much about british politics and margaret thatcher in particular, but i cringe when i look on my facebook feed filled with people saying stuff about how thatcher was such a great person, etc etc, just because she died, even though they probably dont know jack shit about her. when someone dies people will always remember how good he/she was, is a universal law. it doesnt matter who he/she was or what they did.
yeah but they dont even know how or in what way she was good. it's like if everyone were to hate on someone for something bad that he did, and then you start hating on him too even though you have no idea what he actually did.
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Hong Kong9169 Posts
On April 09 2013 00:39 ieatkids5 wrote:
i dont know much about british politics and margaret thatcher in particular, but i cringe when i look on my facebook feed filled with people saying stuff about how thatcher was such a great person, etc etc, just because she died, even though they probably dont know jack shit about her.
Do not worry, I am sure you are able to responsibly and objectively judge and criticize in a negative manner the knowledge of other people about another person based on their expression of said knowledge despite the fact that you, yourself, concede that you actually do not 'know much' about the historical subject.
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On April 09 2013 00:56 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +The most poignant criticism of all conservative politics is that it is what it says on the tin.
It is an ideology that says that the world is as good as it can be. That it wants to conserve the world as it is.
That there can't be more trust, more hope and more happiness. That the world can't or shouldn't be fairer.
Thatcher's government was the symbol of this ideology that accepted the world as subpar, said it was not to be controlled in this way, that it couldn't be controlled, while still making up, on average, the richest members of society.
If you like Thatcher you give in to abandoning principles of true human equality, of a life worth respecting for every individual on this planet, rather than proclaiming the freedoms of minority world while paying lip service the majority world. You say you're a councillor. I know there are some politicians who demonize their opponents, and paint them as being against everything good and decent about humanity, when really its an exaggeration of their position and those people simply have different views on what makes a society great. I feel like this is exactly what I see in your post. By what standards do you claim the mantra of *all conservative politics* to be that we should accept mediocrity? What conservative says the world can't be fairer, or better? At least, from the conservative government in Canada, it seems like they think the world can be a better place. But they think in one-dimensional terms, and think the only thing that matters is more wealth. The republicans in the US...I have never heard what you say applied to them from any news outlet or source of democratic criticism. Republicans simply believe in the power of the free market, and are under the illusion that unions cause more problems than they solve, and as does government (at least in theory, I know republicans can be contradictory with regard to government control). They constantly talk about how the free market will create enormous economic growth, lower prices for everyone, and basically a better standard of living. How is this accepting what we have now? Your post is *exactly* what turns people off of politics, in my opinion. Its because its filled with rhetoric, and a sort of demonizing, rather than an honest appraisal of a person's position and a legitimate, scientific debate on the merits of each other's position. So we just get people yelling at each other, misrepresenting each other, and to be honest I really couldn't care less, while they try to appeal to the majority with their simple-minded arguments and attacks on each other. Not saying that you do all these things, but I wish you would recognize that you are basically categorizing conservatives as people who have no interest in making the world a better place, which is a massive, sweeping generalization based on no evidence (as far as I can tell, and you didn't bring up any yourself). People always wonder why the youth are disengaged from politics, I think this is part of the reason. But the youth aren't even a good standard anyway lol. They're all slightly delusional and probably highly misinformed/idealistic, what with their support of Ron Paul and his gold standard ideas show. But I do love that our generation cares about freedom, and I hope that doesn't die.
Hmmm, saying "all conservative politics" was an over generalisation maybe, not too sure.
Also, i didn't say i am a councillor, i am standing in the local elections in May.
I'm not sure how i can respond to your entire quote, so i'll pick at little bits.
Am i making sweeping generalisations? Yes that would probably be a fair criticism, but with respect you aren't living in the UK as far as i can tell, and there is a huge divide in culture here as to what Thatcher was to Britain. My generation (and i am referring to Britain), aged about 25 and younger, is becoming in large part disenfranchised and apathetic, for good reason. They have no reason to believe in politics, there are no popular critiques of the status quo, their electoral system heavily punishes any dissent from the main 2 and a half parties, the cabinet is filled with millionaires and in the mean time we are being told to be angry at immigration and people "on benefits".
You say that our generation cares about freedom. I know i do, but i go to the protests, and i see very, very few people, i talk to young people, in and out of work, in and our of education, and they don't care, politics is something that happens to 'more important people'.
Do i demonise my opponents? Well maybe, except that in the ward that i am standing in it will be most likely between Labour, Ukip and the Greens, because as i say this is an old working class area.
What is more is that in campaigning we certainly do not. For example, the biggest issue happening in my Ward at the moment is that there is a proposal to build an opencast coal mine. Obviously, being a green i am against this wholeheartedly.
In a ward election like this often one issue will win or lose the election. We could campaign negatively, point out Labour's terrible record with coal mines in general, and note that none of the other parties have had the balls to say they are in favour or against the mine. And if we did, i might well win us the election. But we won't run that campaign, and it will almost certainly hurt our chances in the election. I feel more free to speak my mind here, because it is an independent blog, on a website that very few people in stoke read.
I didn't say it was the most common criticism, but i believe it is the most poignant one. Because it underlies the entire ideology.
Let me put it another way, almost no-one who is the least well off in society would ever argue Thatcherite arguments, even if they had never heard of her. The free market as neo-liberalism proclaims it is great for the rich, and awful for the poor.
Anything you can describe like that, must necessarily be bad for large scale democracy as a whole.
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Beautiful! 5/5! Would read it again!
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On April 09 2013 01:28 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:39 ieatkids5 wrote:
i dont know much about british politics and margaret thatcher in particular, but i cringe when i look on my facebook feed filled with people saying stuff about how thatcher was such a great person, etc etc, just because she died, even though they probably dont know jack shit about her. Do not worry, I am sure you are able to responsibly and objectively judge and criticize in a negative manner the knowledge of other people about another person based on their expression of said knowledge despite the fact that you, yourself, concede that you actually do not 'know much' about the historical subject.
i know my acquaintances. they're not that bright. in fact, you're being pretty hypocritical in judging how much i know about my acquainances based on my post.
also, if you would've read my post more carefully, you'd see that i'm not criticizing them for not knowing about thatcher. i'm criticizing them for expressing an opinion as if they were informed, when they are actually not. therefore, my not knowing about thatcher is totally relevant because i am not pretending to be informed.
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EPT
