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Calgary26003 Posts
I'm designing a card game that is designed to be played as a drinking game. For more history, check my past three Blogs.
Have you ever tried something new and it comes to you pretty easily for the first ~75%? And despite knowing that it won't be this easy to complete, you become a little bit optimistic. That's where I was after my last Blog. But once you get to this point, you start to learn what you don't know yet and that reveals why everything isn't as easy as it originally appeared.
I got 20 TL testers sign up to test rev.07. The feedback was pretty unanimous - this game has potential but it's really not that good. The game was unnecessarily complex and needlessly long. I've simplified the experience system (after my second last Blog), combined two card types and tried to rebalance the damage. The goal is to make a 4-6 player game around 1 hour. I think the game is in a better place now, but once a major issue gets fixed it allows you to see a dozen other minor issues that were covered before. Rev.08 is out and issued to TL members and I will try to link up with my friends to get another testing match in soon. I hope they're not getting tired of the tests 
I finally had a preliminary meeting with an IP lawyer. She pretty much confirmed what I suspected - common law trademarks are a grey area and the more you separate yourself from existing games, the better. I showed her draft designs and she said in her opinion I would be fine, but you never know how big companies will react. Hasbro (owners of Wizards of the Coast and hence Magic: the Gathering) actually has a patent in Canada on "tapping". I was shocked. Trademark? Sure. But a patent? Is it really that novel? There are two good things:
1. Their patent expires mid-2014.
2. It only applies to collectable card games, where you can trade cards and build a deck.
I haven't fully reviewed the patent yet but I think I'm fine. The old title (Liquid Magic) has to go though 
Coagulation is continuing to knock out some great art. Not only that, he's a massive help in the design perspective as well, always offering new ideas and design changes and mechanic suggestions. We are hoping to have a test card design completed soon so we can test print quality from various shops and see which is best and how the art looks when printed.
The tasks for the next few weeks look like this:
- Review any new gameplay feedback that comes in.
- Schedule a test with my friends.
- Finalize a single card and send it to multiple printers.
- Choose a new title.
- Choose card font.
- Continue working on card art and descriptions.
It's been a fun project as something to do after work. I'll be really interested to see how it all comes together.
If anyone is interested in testing the game (with or without drinking), send me a PM please. Otherwise I will just keep posting Blogs as progress is made.
  
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Have you played the game Munchkin before? I'd imagine inspiration could be drawn from there. Also have you formally studied game design? I feel it will help you immensely if you have to solid studying and reading put in. In my opinion Rules of Play would be the best start. I'd like to help playtest but I don't really have time
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always excited to hear any updates! Wish I had the right group of friends around to be able to help test. GL!
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I've never designed a game, but I feel like many big projects follow a similar pattern that you describe. When I am given a big project at work I many times enjoy it at the beginning. I figure out the conceptual part and get the basic structure in place. then I get to a point where, in my mind, all that is left is to "smooth out the details". This inevitably turns into the hardest and least fun part of the project where you have to go back over and redo large parts of what you originally did.
Anyway, good luck! I'll be tracking your progress just because I think it is a good idea.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 07:16 CecilSunkure wrote:Have you played the game Munchkin before? I'd imagine inspiration could be drawn from there. Also have you formally studied game design? I feel it will help you immensely if you have to solid studying and reading put in. In my opinion Rules of Play would be the best start. I'd like to help playtest but I don't really have time
No, but I just watched a video about it and it seems like Drunk Quest was 100% based off Munchkin. I've never played either but I've watched a few videos on Drunk Quest.
No, I've never ever read anything about game design. I'm a project engineer, so I know how to set up a project and schedule it, but nothing specifically related to game design at all. It's surely a weakness, and Coagulation has pointed out things that should have been obvious that were missed by me.
Rules of Play (instructions) have been done for months now. Obviously they get updated every time there is a revision. Even though the instructions are still as long as rev.01, I feel that they've been significantly simplified. I'd like to estimate first-timers could learn rev.08 of the game in ~60% of the time it took to learn rev.01. I'd like to see that number come down to ~40% by rev.1.0.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 07:42 petered wrote:
I've never designed a game, but I feel like many big projects follow a similar pattern that you describe. When I am given a big project at work I many times enjoy it at the beginning. I figure out the conceptual part and get the basic structure in place. then I get to a point where, in my mind, all that is left is to "smooth out the details". This inevitably turns into the hardest and least fun part of the project where you have to go back over and redo large parts of what you originally did.
Anyway, good luck! I'll be tracking your progress just because I think it is a good idea.
The biggest worry I have is running out of goodwill. I can test it in my head as much as I want, but the real value comes from people giving feedback after playing the game. If my friends get annoyed by trying it and TL goodwill dries up, it'll be hard to finish the project.
Given that this is a hobby and not work, I haven't run out of fun yet... fingers crossed
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Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game.
Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually.
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If you ever came down to edmonton I'm sure we could get a group together to try out the game. Incase you want some first person feedback from another group.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 08:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game. Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually.
Hmm they didn't have it. And the game store didn't have card sleeves...
Time to order online!
Edit: Ordered the book @ amazon and I got the KMC card sleeves someone recommended in a previous blog @ ebay. Thanks for the suggestions.
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I've actually picked up a great book about design (more about mechanical design but you could easily transfer this wisdom to game design). I recommend it if you're interested: The Design of Everything
I've also heard a lot of game designers reference Flow in interviews. I'm heading down to San Diego to drink with some friends next week, I'd be happy to give the game a try and we could all fill out surveys if that would help you.
Good article here too (From M:TG Designers) http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/174
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On March 11 2013 10:10 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 08:43 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game. Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually. Hmm they didn't have it. And the game store didn't have card sleeves... Time to order online! Edit: Ordered the book @ amazon and I got the KMC card sleeves someone recommended in a previous blog @ ebay. Thanks for the suggestions.
Nice initiative; I'm sure it'll pay off soon.
Edit: So is there a kickstarter campaign going on? Or a planned one?
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 13:21 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 10:10 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:43 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game. Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually. Hmm they didn't have it. And the game store didn't have card sleeves... Time to order online! Edit: Ordered the book @ amazon and I got the KMC card sleeves someone recommended in a previous blog @ ebay. Thanks for the suggestions. Nice initiative; I'm sure it'll pay off soon. Edit: So is there a kickstarter campaign going on? Or a planned one?
I will see where this ends up. I want to have a physical product in hand before reaching out for crowd funding.
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Hasbro might have a patent on tapping but in practice it's not going to mean anything (as long as you don't call it "tapping"); plenty of other card games (ccgs, even) use it (VS System comes to mind).
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Good to see you're moving things about a bit rather than sticking to your original concepts to hell and gone. I'll also add on the IP law front, that it is literally not possible to either trademark or patent ludic concepts- of which game mechanics are the most common form. Game studios manage their content by interweaving their visual/narrative aesthetics and mechanics, because they CAN copyright artistic works, which game assets count as. In that sense, Tapping will be a patent on the a) word 'tapping' and b) the tap iconography, not the actual mechanic of 'tilting a card to show it has been used for an action'. If they are actually trying to patent the action itself, it's likely to be in some incredibly oblique and shady way that can be circumvented with a little cleverness. All you gotta do is find another word for it, I'm doing similar things in my own CG atm, using the word 'Committing'
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 12 2013 00:08 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Good to see you're moving things about a bit rather than sticking to your original concepts to hell and gone. I'll also add on the IP law front, that it is literally not possible to either trademark or patent ludic concepts- of which game mechanics are the most common form. Game studios manage their content by interweaving their visual/narrative aesthetics and mechanics, because they CAN copyright artistic works, which game assets count as. In that sense, Tapping will be a patent on the a) word 'tapping' and b) the tap iconography, not the actual mechanic of 'tilting a card to show it has been used for an action'. If they are actually trying to patent the action itself, it's likely to be in some incredibly oblique and shady way that can be circumvented with a little cleverness. All you gotta do is find another word for it, I'm doing similar things in my own CG atm, using the word 'Committing'
Pretty much exactly what you said. I don't have the patent in front of me, but it was something like:
A game with collectible equipment wherein players can individually collect and trade equipment, gameplay is one versus one, and the tradeable equipment may have its orientation altered to indicate a separate state of the equipment.
The sentence was about three times longer than that but I can't remember the rest. There were about a dozen requirements to the sentence and I think I met about 8 of them? The lawyer said you either meet all of them or it doesn't apply.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 11 2013 13:21 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 10:10 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:43 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game. Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually. Hmm they didn't have it. And the game store didn't have card sleeves... Time to order online! Edit: Ordered the book @ amazon and I got the KMC card sleeves someone recommended in a previous blog @ ebay. Thanks for the suggestions. Nice initiative; I'm sure it'll pay off soon. Edit: So is there a kickstarter campaign going on? Or a planned one?
Got it today. Only two chapters in but it's really informative and interesting so far. I already got a bunch of good plans from it.
I like that it reads like a text book (and... it likely is). Pretty much it's exactly what I needed. Thanks for the recommendation.
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On March 16 2013 07:23 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:21 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 11 2013 10:10 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:43 Chill wrote:On March 11 2013 08:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Haha I meant Rules of Play the book! You really should read it if you want to be more efficient in actually designing your game. Oh Thanks! I'll check out a book store today actually. Hmm they didn't have it. And the game store didn't have card sleeves... Time to order online! Edit: Ordered the book @ amazon and I got the KMC card sleeves someone recommended in a previous blog @ ebay. Thanks for the suggestions. Nice initiative; I'm sure it'll pay off soon. Edit: So is there a kickstarter campaign going on? Or a planned one? Got it today. Only two chapters in but it's really informative and interesting so far. I already got a bunch of good plans from it. I like that it reads like a text book (and... it likely is). Pretty much it's exactly what I needed. Thanks for the recommendation.
Yeah I read the entire book. I'd like to read it again (read a few years ago) as I can't remember most of it. I feel like it's a must-have for anyone designing a game. Excited to see your next blog post
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IANAL, but can't you just, you know, create your company that will own/make the game in a different country that doesn't have shitty patent laws? Unless you are planning to make it very big or something that would make it matter (otherwise people can buy it online and it doesn't really matter where you are based).
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 16 2013 07:40 3772 wrote:
IANAL, but can't you just, you know, create your company that will own/make the game in a different country that doesn't have shitty patent laws? Unless you are planning to make it very big or something that would make it matter (otherwise people can buy it online and it doesn't really matter where you are based).
I don't want to manage a company in another country. Why complicate things? Deal with foreign tax law? So many problems :X
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I'm a patent attorney if you ever have questions about patent stuff. We've met a couple times at TL Blizzcon events, but I'm sure you don't remember me.
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EPT
