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[H] Music Notation

Blogs > EsX_Raptor
Post a Reply
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
March 01 2013 03:59 GMT
#1
I am new to music theory and notation, and in the following image, the highlighted note is a C. However, it is played as a C flat. Why, if there is no flat symbol preceding it?

[image loading]


Thanks in advance!

TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 04:25:22
March 01 2013 04:14 GMT
#2
That shouldn't be right...the key signature is for Eflat (Maj.) or C (min), so I don't see any reason why it would be played as a flat...the flat notes should only be E, A, and B. It seems like bad notation to me, which trust me, happens all the time.

It is either bad notation, or correct and meant to be played in C...or...what instrument is this for? You have to remember that notation gives you the fingering, not necessarily the exact note played...if your instrument is in a different tune (such as an Eflat clarinet) you would finger a C, but be playing an Eflat, if that makes sense...unless it was transposed properly, but again, that often does not happen. Damn notation.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
March 01 2013 04:18 GMT
#3
In C minor, C should be played as C, not C flat, so not sure how it can be played as C flat. Where did you get this and how do you know it's supposed to be played as flat?
Josealtron
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States219 Posts
March 01 2013 04:22 GMT
#4
There was either an error in the notation or it's not supposed to be played as a flat. A C flat will always have either a flat in the key signature on C or a flat immediately preceding the note(just like any other flatted note)
"If you give up on yourself, you give up on the world."
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
March 01 2013 04:26 GMT
#5
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 04:37:32
March 01 2013 04:29 GMT
#6
On March 01 2013 13:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.


Because of the key signature at the beginning of the piece, the 3 flat signs. That indicates that all of those notes shall be played as flats in the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

The key signature is there so that you don't have to write all of the flats and sharps when notating. Now, since the key signature is Eflat, that means that all Es, As, and Bs are flat in the piece as long as the key signature is still there. Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural. Also, once you see a sharp, flat, or natural sign in a measure (bar), it is always the same for the rest of that measure. I hope this helps some. If you need any more help with notation questions or theory stuff, feel free to PM me.

Some quick tricks for key signatures: If they are flat, the second to last flat note in the signature tells you what major key you are in. If they are sharp, take a look at the last sharp note in the signature, if you raise it by a half step, you get the major key as well. (Gmaj signature has a single sharp on the F, therefore F#, add a half step, G.)
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
Josealtron
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States219 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 04:41:56
March 01 2013 04:40 GMT
#7
On March 01 2013 13:29 TheAmazombie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 13:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.


Because of the key signature at the beginning of the piece, the 3 flat signs. That indicates that all of those notes shall be played as flats in the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

The key signature is there so that you don't have to write all of the flats and sharps when notating. Now, since the key signature is Eflat, that means that all Es, As, and Bs are flat in the piece as long as the key signature is still there. Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural. Also, once you see a sharp, flat, or natural sign in a measure (bar), it is always the same for the rest of that measure. I hope this helps some. If you need any more help with notation questions or theory stuff, feel free to PM me.

Some quick tricks for key signatures: If they are flat, the second to last flat note in the signature tells you what major key you are in. If they are sharp, take a look at the last sharp note in the signature, if you raise it by a half step, you get the major key as well. (Gmaj signature has a single sharp on the F, therefore F#, add a half step, G.)


This part is not correct. If you want an E natural when there's an Eflat in the key signature, it will be notated with a natural sign preceding the note, not a sharp sign. An E natural will always be labeled as an E natural, either by the key signature or a natural sign preceding the note. E natural is a half step higher than E flat, but that does not mean that it will be labeled as E sharp. If you were to put a sharp sign in front of the E when the key has an E flat, it would become E sharp, not E natural.

Everything else is true though.
"If you give up on yourself, you give up on the world."
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
March 01 2013 04:42 GMT
#8
On March 01 2013 13:40 Josealtron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 13:29 TheAmazombie wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.


Because of the key signature at the beginning of the piece, the 3 flat signs. That indicates that all of those notes shall be played as flats in the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

The key signature is there so that you don't have to write all of the flats and sharps when notating. Now, since the key signature is Eflat, that means that all Es, As, and Bs are flat in the piece as long as the key signature is still there. Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural. Also, once you see a sharp, flat, or natural sign in a measure (bar), it is always the same for the rest of that measure. I hope this helps some. If you need any more help with notation questions or theory stuff, feel free to PM me.

Some quick tricks for key signatures: If they are flat, the second to last flat note in the signature tells you what major key you are in. If they are sharp, take a look at the last sharp note in the signature, if you raise it by a half step, you get the major key as well. (Gmaj signature has a single sharp on the F, therefore F#, add a half step, G.)


This part is not correct. If you want an E natural when there's an Eflat in the key signature, it will be notated with a natural sign preceding the note, not a sharp sign. An E natural will always be labeled as an E natural, either by the key signature or a natural sign preceding the note. E natural is a half step higher than E flat, but that does not mean that it will be labeled as E sharp.

Everything else is true though.


Weird...that is not what we were taught. We were taught that in notation a sharp symbol indicates half step higher from the key, as a flat symbol indicates a half step down from the key, and a natural indicates the natural note in the key you are in. Hmm...weird. Okay, cool. Luckily we don't run into it too often. Hehe.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 06:07:26
March 01 2013 06:06 GMT
#9
On March 01 2013 13:42 TheAmazombie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 13:40 Josealtron wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:29 TheAmazombie wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.


Because of the key signature at the beginning of the piece, the 3 flat signs. That indicates that all of those notes shall be played as flats in the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

The key signature is there so that you don't have to write all of the flats and sharps when notating. Now, since the key signature is Eflat, that means that all Es, As, and Bs are flat in the piece as long as the key signature is still there. Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural. Also, once you see a sharp, flat, or natural sign in a measure (bar), it is always the same for the rest of that measure. I hope this helps some. If you need any more help with notation questions or theory stuff, feel free to PM me.

Some quick tricks for key signatures: If they are flat, the second to last flat note in the signature tells you what major key you are in. If they are sharp, take a look at the last sharp note in the signature, if you raise it by a half step, you get the major key as well. (Gmaj signature has a single sharp on the F, therefore F#, add a half step, G.)


This part is not correct. If you want an E natural when there's an Eflat in the key signature, it will be notated with a natural sign preceding the note, not a sharp sign. An E natural will always be labeled as an E natural, either by the key signature or a natural sign preceding the note. E natural is a half step higher than E flat, but that does not mean that it will be labeled as E sharp.

Everything else is true though.


Weird...that is not what we were taught. We were taught that in notation a sharp symbol indicates half step higher from the key, as a flat symbol indicates a half step down from the key, and a natural indicates the natural note in the key you are in. Hmm...weird. Okay, cool. Luckily we don't run into it too often. Hehe.

Josealtron is right, the natural sign negates everything, even the signs of the key you are in at the beginning of the piece.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
March 01 2013 06:11 GMT
#10
On March 01 2013 15:06 surfinbird1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 13:42 TheAmazombie wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:40 Josealtron wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:29 TheAmazombie wrote:
On March 01 2013 13:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I apologize; what I meant to say was that the note right above the highlighted one, E, is played as an E flat when there is no flat symbol preceding it. That is what is confusing me.


Because of the key signature at the beginning of the piece, the 3 flat signs. That indicates that all of those notes shall be played as flats in the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

The key signature is there so that you don't have to write all of the flats and sharps when notating. Now, since the key signature is Eflat, that means that all Es, As, and Bs are flat in the piece as long as the key signature is still there. Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural. Also, once you see a sharp, flat, or natural sign in a measure (bar), it is always the same for the rest of that measure. I hope this helps some. If you need any more help with notation questions or theory stuff, feel free to PM me.

Some quick tricks for key signatures: If they are flat, the second to last flat note in the signature tells you what major key you are in. If they are sharp, take a look at the last sharp note in the signature, if you raise it by a half step, you get the major key as well. (Gmaj signature has a single sharp on the F, therefore F#, add a half step, G.)


This part is not correct. If you want an E natural when there's an Eflat in the key signature, it will be notated with a natural sign preceding the note, not a sharp sign. An E natural will always be labeled as an E natural, either by the key signature or a natural sign preceding the note. E natural is a half step higher than E flat, but that does not mean that it will be labeled as E sharp.

Everything else is true though.


Weird...that is not what we were taught. We were taught that in notation a sharp symbol indicates half step higher from the key, as a flat symbol indicates a half step down from the key, and a natural indicates the natural note in the key you are in. Hmm...weird. Okay, cool. Luckily we don't run into it too often. Hehe.

Josealtron is right, the natural sign negates everything, even the signs of the key you are in at the beginning of the piece.


That is fine, no arguing from me, just I was taught differently, and now I am trying to figure out where that variation comes from. Sounds good.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-01 07:01:10
March 01 2013 07:00 GMT
#11
lol. If you put a flat in front of a note - no matter what the key signature says - then the note is played flat. The same goes for every kind of notation out there. Any notation right in front of a note supersedes any information gained from the key signature (or elsewhere).

Putting a flat in front of a note does not mean you play it one half step lower. That's completely incorrect. Putting a flat in front of a note means you play the original pitch but flat (i.e. if the note is G, and the key signature says you're in E major - which means you would normally play the G as a G sharp - then if there's a flat sign in front of the G you play the G flat. Otherwise you play the G sharp).

It's really simple. Go to a digital keyboard and play around with the notes. Most newbie keyboards have displays where they show the note on the clef and whether it's sharp or flat. Multiple keys have different values depending on the clef as well as depending on which key you're in.
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 01 2013 07:31 GMT
#12
also if you played some things natural when its supposed to be sharp it would probably stand out harmonically.
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
March 01 2013 15:37 GMT
#13
Now, the weird thing is that because let's say the E is flat, this means that if you want an E natural in the piece, it will be labeled as Esharp, meaning half-step higher than normal, and since normal is flat, sharp is natural

That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. I'm pretty sure that usually, when you want to cancel out the key signature, you place an accidental in front of the desired note, not a sharp...

Here's a neat picture courtesy of 10 seconds of google searching to clarify things:
[image loading]

I hope this helps!
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