• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:50
CEST 01:50
KST 08:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event5Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced63
StarCraft 2
General
Rogue Talks: "Koreans could dominate again" uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025)
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays RSL Season 2 Qualifier Links and Dates
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft player reflex TE scores BW General Discussion
Tourneys
KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 687 users

An Academy Award, and a surprising development.

Blogs > Lysenko
Post a Reply
Normal
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 10:10:34
February 26 2013 08:56 GMT
#1
Note: For the first part of this story, have a look at this blog post from a couple of weeks ago: Rhythm & Hues winning VFX awards, going bankrupt

Rhythm & Hues's bankruptcy process, which started around when I made the previous post, is proceeding. The company's arranged financing from the studios to continue visual effects production on three films currently in-house, and by tomorrow all the current employees (meaning those who were not laid off on the eve of the bankruptcy) will be entirely or almost caught up on wage payments from the period after January 16th.

I am still employed at Rhythm & Hues, so I am not personally going through the kind of financial trauma that many of my laid-off friends have been. Unfortunately, the bankruptcy court did not approve making any wage payments to those who were laid off, so many of them are suffering.

This weekend, after a stressful couple of weeks, the night of the Academy Awards finally arrived. Rhythm & Hues as a company is in no position to fund any kind of party, but a few of my dedicated coworkers decided to put one together at a local restaurant called Rock and Brews. They sold about 150 tickets, which allowed us to rent out most of the restaurant for the night and paid for pizza and beer for everyone who went. The restaurant kindly put the awards show up on their sound system and tuned all their TVs to it.

[image loading]

About an hour after I took that photo, the visual effects award, usually awarded in the first half of the program, was announced. Rhythm & Hues' visual effects supervisor Bill Westenhofer and animation director Erik-Jan De Boer, along with Guillaume Rocheron and Donald Elliott, who supervised for other studios, won the award for Life of Pi. This was Bill Westenhofer's second Academy Award, the first having been for my first project at Rhythm in 2007, The Golden Compass.

A coworker who was two blocks away and walking toward the restaurant heard our cheering and immediately knew our guys had won.

[image loading]
From left to right, Guillaume Rocheron, Bill Westenhofer, Erik-Jan de Boer, Donald R. Elliott.

Here's where it gets interesting.

Since Bill had been working as the production company's visual effects supervisor on the show, he was the one with a chance to step up to the microphone and offer an acceptance speech. These speeches have been a continual issue for the Academy Awards, because too-long speeches have caused the awards to run long in the past, so they enforce strict time limits. However, as we discovered, these time limits vary a great deal depending on the status of the speaker.

Bill thanked a few people, and around 30-40 seconds into his speech, the music from the movie "Jaws" came up. Now, at this point in the show, nobody else had had music come up during their comments until at least 60 seconds in. At around 50 seconds, he began to make a comment about Rhythm's financial problems, and mid-sentence, his mic cut out.

There are many reasons that they might give different winners different amounts of time, such as their prominence and whether the show's running late. However, Bill's win was immediately followed up by a win from Life of Pi's cinematographer Claudio Miranda, who was allowed to speak for 60 seconds and was not interrupted by music.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I have to say that a large number of people I work with or know through my work are convinced that he was interrupted because of the content of what he was saying, which was that visual effects as an art form is at risk.

The visual effects community, spooked by Rhythm's bankruptcy only a few months behind that of Digital Domain, another of the four largest U.S. visual effects companies, reacted to all of this with outrage. On the afternoon of the Academy Awards, five hundred artists had protested nearby in Hollywood to try to raise awareness of these issues, and many of the people involved in that protest were upset at the media not covering them despite the unusual size of the demonstration.

I'd love to post for you video of Bill's speech, but when it's been posted to Youtube or Vimeo, it's almost instantly been taken down by the Academy, despite that its posting, as news commentary, is almost certainly "fair use" under U.S. copyright laws.

The Hollywood protesters had been wearing small pieces of green tape, in the color of the green backdrops often used when shooting people who are going to be digitally inserted into other scenes later on, as a sign of solidarity. Within an hour of Bill's acceptance speech, people on Facebook and Twitter started changing their profile pictures to green squares to show support for visual effects workers whose livelihoods have been put at risk by the studios' behavior.

[image loading]

(This is not my picture, but as of this post, 114 of my 575 Facebook friends, or about 20%, have changed their profile photos.)

In seventeen years of work in the visual effects and animation businesses, I have never seen such a reaction. Whether it can be translated into a productive reaction, like union organization or something else that might make a difference, remains to be seen. I fully support unionization, particularly since the rest of the film industry has had most of their benefits provided by unions since the 1940s, but the unusual structure of the visual effects business in relation to the rest of the film industry, and the issues that have led to the current situation, makes it an incomplete answer to the problem. I really don't know what the best way forward is.

I'll leave you with a few articles on the topic. Note the already-taken-down Vimeo video of Bill's speech at the top of the first link.

And, go see Life of Pi if you get a chance. It's a great movie and worth your $17.50, or whatever a 3D movie costs these days.

Hear This Uninterrupted Statement from “Life of Pi” VFX Winner

OSCARS: ‘Life Of Pi’ VFX Winner Played Off While Thanking Bankrupt Rhythm & Hues

Visual effects workers miffed after Oscar speech cut-off

And, for an absolutely unfettered dose of activism, here's the definitive blog on the state of labor issues in the VFX industry.

VFX Soldier Blog

Another blatantly opinionated blog post, but one that communicates the issue clearly:

A Piece of the Pi

And, a parting shot (thanks to my incredibly talented Life of Pi compositor friend, Daniel Mejia):

[image loading]
What is that thing? For God's sake, it's not a tiger!!

****
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
February 26 2013 09:08 GMT
#2
Damn thats pretty interesting man. I don't work in the industry but i live in the area so I found this pretty fascinating and hope it gets resolved
Broom
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
February 26 2013 09:29 GMT
#3
Wow, that bit about the mic cutting off....

Glad you're featured, and I found what you had to say in your last blog really interesting. It's not often you get this kind of glimpse into the industry, and I hope the protesters manage to make this issue go massively public.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 26 2013 09:34 GMT
#4
Thanks guys, your support means a lot. At this point I have no way to tell whether I'll have a job past April, but I'd be proud to stay at Rhythm under new ownership if I have the opportunity if and when that day comes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19135 Posts
February 26 2013 09:46 GMT
#5
Great post, thanks for the information and that was just extremely rude! Good luck in the near future and I hope things work out for you.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 13:41:28
February 26 2013 13:41 GMT
#6
Man, my big brother works as a CG artist/supervisor at Weta, now you've got me worried about him.
Reasonable
Profile Joined September 2010
Ukraine1432 Posts
February 26 2013 13:45 GMT
#7
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
February 26 2013 14:04 GMT
#8
Wow I had absolutely no idea about any of this.......good luck on resolving this issue!
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
February 26 2013 15:21 GMT
#9
On February 26 2013 22:45 Reasonable wrote:
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.


Hearing people constantly whining about difficult times is also very fucking aggravating considering the recession has been over for 4 years in the US. With corporate profits and the stock market at all-time highs, we shouldn't let profitable industries screw over their skilled labor just because somebody on the opposite corner of the planet is still having problems.

Hollywood is making money. Lots of it. The big studios are just abusing their market power to screw over their small suppliers and the "woe is me" people let them get away with it. This happens whether there is a recession or not.
aike
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1629 Posts
February 26 2013 15:47 GMT
#10
On February 26 2013 22:45 Reasonable wrote:
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.


The guy who just won an oscar and will probably be unemployed in a few months after they finish their current projects, and who had to lay off half his workforce because he couldn't pay them. Yeah... other unemployed people wouldn't feel sympathy for him at all.
Wahaha
Reasonable
Profile Joined September 2010
Ukraine1432 Posts
February 26 2013 15:53 GMT
#11
On February 27 2013 00:21 andrewlt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 22:45 Reasonable wrote:
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.


Hearing people constantly whining about difficult times is also very fucking aggravating considering the recession has been over for 4 years in the US. With corporate profits and the stock market at all-time highs, we shouldn't let profitable industries screw over their skilled labor just because somebody on the opposite corner of the planet is still having problems.

Hollywood is making money. Lots of it. The big studios are just abusing their market power to screw over their small suppliers and the "woe is me" people let them get away with it. This happens whether there is a recession or not.

They are able to screw over their skilled labor because the competition from the opposite corner of the planet can do the same work for a really miserable sum of money. And if you think the quality of the products are not the same, you just wait several more years.
Kznn
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil9072 Posts
February 26 2013 16:56 GMT
#12
....I`m really woried about all this. RIght now I`m spending almost 17 hours per day studying vfx in the most expensive and prestigious vfx school in the whole world. I spent all my saved money to do this, I have literaly no back-up plan after this. I`m pretty much all in. Reading all of this makes me really woried.


Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 26 2013 17:10 GMT
#13
On February 27 2013 00:53 Reasonable wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2013 00:21 andrewlt wrote:
On February 26 2013 22:45 Reasonable wrote:
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.


Hearing people constantly whining about difficult times is also very fucking aggravating considering the recession has been over for 4 years in the US. With corporate profits and the stock market at all-time highs, we shouldn't let profitable industries screw over their skilled labor just because somebody on the opposite corner of the planet is still having problems.

Hollywood is making money. Lots of it. The big studios are just abusing their market power to screw over their small suppliers and the "woe is me" people let them get away with it. This happens whether there is a recession or not.

They are able to screw over their skilled labor because the competition from the opposite corner of the planet can do the same work for a really miserable sum of money. And if you think the quality of the products are not the same, you just wait several more years.


Actually, competition with low-wage countries was NOT the issue that put Rhythm in trouble. The company is perfectly positioned to compete, were that the main thing driving down bids. The real problem is local governments enacting gigantic, treaty-violating, market-distorting subsidies that benefit the major movie studios and not the artists or their employers. For example, companies are currently ditching Vancouver to go to Montreal because Quebec recently enacted a flat-out 60% payment of the value of wages paid for movie projects there that goes to the studio, not the employer.

There's no country in the world you could move the work to compete with a 60% refund to your customer for taking work elsewhere. And, these subsidies are particularly toxic because people uproot and move around the world only to have the local governments pull them when they realize how expensive they are (like British Columbia is doing now.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 17:29:46
February 26 2013 17:12 GMT
#14
On February 27 2013 01:56 Kznn wrote:
....I`m really woried about all this. RIght now I`m spending almost 17 hours per day studying vfx in the most expensive and prestigious vfx school in the whole world. I spent all my saved money to do this, I have literaly no back-up plan after this. I`m pretty much all in. Reading all of this makes me really woried.




If you have no family and never intend to, if you're willing to work unlimited hours in a country with no labor laws and move anywhere in the world on a few weeks' notice, you should have no problems.

Edit: My comment may come off as unsupportive, and I don't mean it that way; I just don't see the future of working for VFX vendors to be very rosy. I think the path to take, if you can, is to try to work for companies that own their own content rather than being vendors for others. The prospects are much better for those companies.

For anyone reading who is considering an expensive art program specifically because of a dream to enter this field, I recommend that you consider another way into it, such as by studying computer science, that will leave you with a more broadly-applicable skill set should you wish at some point to do something more stable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 17:20:58
February 26 2013 17:18 GMT
#15
On February 26 2013 22:45 Reasonable wrote:
Of course it was cut off on purpose. There is always a control room for any major event where a bunch of dudes are sitting and watching the process like hawks. IMHO it is just as rude to talk about your financial problems on such event as it is to cut the speech of someone. The whole Oscar event is a above all a celebration, which is watched by a global audience, hence it is also a business. People tune in to watch the ceremony to be entertained, and organizers know that very well. There are like 1000 actors and movie business professionals from all over the world in that hall and I'm sure they all have problems in such difficult times, but the audience does not want to hear about it. With the current level of unemployment in the U.S. and devastating debt crisis in Europe, the general public is striving to keep the food on the table for their children. It would be really fucking aggravating for an average family to hear about how bad the life is from a guy who's just won an Oscar.


To be clear, he was not complaining, only acknowledging the situation and asking people to think of the artists affected by the bankruptcy. I know people who were immediately put at risk of losing their homes by this -- these people are mostly decently paid.when they're working, but nobody's making enough to save very much money.

Read the link at the bottom that describes his comments in the press room afterwards. They were tasteful and appropriate. Also, his comments were well-prepared and quite brief by the night's standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
c0ldfusion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8293 Posts
February 26 2013 19:50 GMT
#16
Damn I watched the show live and remembered feeling that the jaws music started playing too early for these guys - now I know why.

Congrats on the win. I hope things get better for you guys!
synac
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland13 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 20:11:35
February 26 2013 20:05 GMT
#17
I checked how long the speeches really lasted:

Claudio Miranda got his award before Bill Westenhofer and talked for 55 seconds.

Bill Westenhofer talked 55 seconds before the music started and at 75 seconds the mic was cut off. Oscars speech is not the place to talk about your financial problems.

I don't see what's the big deal.

Edit: Okay, he didn't talk for 55 seconds, because he just stood by the mic for 10 seconds before starting. I guess that counts as a speech too
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
February 26 2013 20:17 GMT
#18
What the hell, I hope luck is on your side onwards.

Must've been pretty frustrating for everyone that his mic just got cut out like that, ridiculous -_-
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-26 20:48:17
February 26 2013 20:36 GMT
#19
On February 27 2013 05:05 synac wrote:
Oscars speech is not the place to talk about your financial problems.


Certainly not the place to talk about one's own, however when the team who just won an Academy Award is going through a group trauma, it's more than appropriate to acknowledge that they went through that for the work that just won.

Honestly, I don't know what exactly happened in terms of their process. It's possible that he simply went over time and didn't merit, in the producer's view, the extra leeway given to actors and directors. It's possible that there was a blanket policy of cutting the mic on anyone who said anything that wasn't exactly a thank-you, regardless of content. It's possible that they were specifically prepared for him in particular to bring the issue up and had planned in advance to cut the mic if that happened.

Furthermore, I completely understand the Academy's desire not to have their event used for, say, opinion or a political statement, and they may well have thought that's where that was going. However, in this particular case, what's interesting is that cutting his mic at that exact moment stirred up so much discontent among the visual effects community that it's likely to have a bigger impact than if they'd just let him finish his thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
-Kaiser-
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada932 Posts
February 26 2013 23:17 GMT
#20
Lysenko, have you heard anymore about the possible development of a walk-out on 3/14?
3 Hatch Before Cool
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
February 26 2013 23:33 GMT
#21
[image loading]
[image loading]
sup tiger
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
February 26 2013 23:43 GMT
#22
Your latimes article got the names wrong. Well done >_<
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 27 2013 00:15 GMT
#23
On February 27 2013 08:43 Durak wrote:
Your latimes article got the names wrong. Well done >_<


Yeah I noticed that.

As for a walk-out, there are no legal protections for employees who walk out except as part of an official union action. Also, even those protections can be suspended for companies currently under the supervision of a bankruptcy court. So, I will not be doing any walking-out on 3/14.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
-Kaiser-
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada932 Posts
February 27 2013 00:40 GMT
#24
Do you think the VFX industry can, or should unionize the artists like the rest of most film professions are? It seems like everybody else has looked after themselves, and so the artists are where the financial edges are being sucked from.
3 Hatch Before Cool
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 27 2013 00:48 GMT
#25
On February 27 2013 09:40 -Kaiser- wrote:
Do you think the VFX industry can, or should unionize the artists like the rest of most film professions are? It seems like everybody else has looked after themselves, and so the artists are where the financial edges are being sucked from.


As I mentioned in the OP, I fully support unionizing. I'm still a member of the IATSE Animation Guild (currently on what they call "honorable withdrawal" since I'm not working for a union employer) and they pretty much deliver what they promise, the best of which is a coordinated health and pension plan that's ultimately funded by residuals paid by their signatory studios on the work their employees produce.

However, the fact that visual effects employees are working essentially for middlemen between them and the content owners makes unionizing only a partial solution. It doesn't address the issue that the vfx companies are stuck between expensive labor on one hand and studios that want to pay them below cost on the other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
-Kaiser-
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Canada932 Posts
February 27 2013 01:24 GMT
#26
On February 27 2013 09:48 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2013 09:40 -Kaiser- wrote:
Do you think the VFX industry can, or should unionize the artists like the rest of most film professions are? It seems like everybody else has looked after themselves, and so the artists are where the financial edges are being sucked from.


As I mentioned in the OP, I fully support unionizing. I'm still a member of the IATSE Animation Guild (currently on what they call "honorable withdrawal" since I'm not working for a union employer) and they pretty much deliver what they promise, the best of which is a coordinated health and pension plan that's ultimately funded by residuals paid by their signatory studios on the work their employees produce.

However, the fact that visual effects employees are working essentially for middlemen between them and the content owners makes unionizing only a partial solution. It doesn't address the issue that the vfx companies are stuck between expensive labor on one hand and studios that want to pay them below cost on the other.


Then what about VFX studios pursuing ownership of the content that's making all of the money? It seems to me like a studio like DD or R&H or MPC or Prime Focus all have the ability to do the VFX for an entire blockbuster themselves, so why don't the studios, in an environment where it's becoming harder and harder to make money, start making their own movies? Hollywood has thrown writers in the trash, they're throwing artists in the trash.

I'm probably ignorant of a lot of things, but it seems to me that if a top-end VFX house become a production house and started producing their own properties, you'd be seeing a hell of a lot less money being leeched away. I don't see how difficult it could be to find investors to get your budget together when you can tell them you don't have to pay x amount of other people.

It seems to me that with Hollywood generally being so wasteful with their budgets and the profits going so little to the people who are making most of the movie, a VFX house would be able to stretch a budget a lot better, pay their employees better, and (the bottom line) pay the investors better. I guess it's a matter of risk vs. reward, but the worse the finances get for some of these companies, I can't help but think that it might be less of a risk to try and make your own film.
3 Hatch Before Cool
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 27 2013 04:07 GMT
#27
That's part of the plan for a lot of companies, but when your expertise is making $100 million plus movies, you need that much money to get started, and if you only have that much, you are risking everything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
theaxis12
Profile Joined March 2011
United States489 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-27 04:44:44
February 27 2013 04:35 GMT
#28
I definitely noticed this event during the Oscars after reading your other blog that you posted, and I feel really bad about this situation. The fact that VFX work can be done in a shopped out way is certain to make it the norm, and I think that the only way to change that is through unionization. Although because of the digital medium of your work they can hire scabs from across the world, so I don't ever see the union being able to gain any traction. Really the only way to fix this is to create public awareness of the issue, which would be rather hard considering the size of your community and the scale of social problems that people are confronted with on a daily basis. The situation in the VFX industry is emblematic of how capitalist modes of exchange do not account for humanity or the dignity of the workers in any way, and this being a digital industry gives insights into the future perils of the worker.

I apologize for being so negative and I truly feel awful for you and your colleagues.
Shut your mouth and put your head back in the clouds.
Garnet
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Vietnam9021 Posts
February 27 2013 14:51 GMT
#29
Just watched that part of the Oscars. That was so rude cutting him off like that. Thanks for writing this blog Lysenko.
aike
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1629 Posts
February 27 2013 15:49 GMT
#30
Time to go get a job at Blizzard :D
Wahaha
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 27 2013 20:34 GMT
#31
On February 28 2013 00:49 aike wrote:
Time to go get a job at Blizzard :D


They're a prominent local company who does great looking work. I've talked to them before and I probably will again.

However if I were to interview or work for them, I will probably wind up going silent on TL, because I gather they look poorly on candidates or non-customer-facing employees talking about them or their work on internet forums that follow their games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-27 20:56:22
February 27 2013 20:53 GMT
#32
On February 28 2013 05:34 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:49 aike wrote:
Time to go get a job at Blizzard :D


They're a prominent local company who does great looking work. I've talked to them before and I probably will again.

However if I were to interview or work for them, I will probably wind up going silent on TL, because I gather they look poorly on candidates or non-customer-facing employees talking about them or their work on internet forums that follow their games.

So go work for EA

If you need work as an animator, I know guys at PopCap (now part of EA) and Pocket Gems.
Что?
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-27 21:17:22
February 27 2013 21:04 GMT
#33
On February 28 2013 05:53 Shady Sands wrote:
So go work for EA

If you need work as an animator, I know guys at PopCap (now part of EA) and Pocket Gems.


I don't think any desire I have to continue participating on TL would drive my choice of employer.

Edit: Seriously, thanks for the offer. I have some friends at EA too, so they're definitely a possibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Sumahi
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Guam5609 Posts
February 27 2013 21:46 GMT
#34
Thank you for this post. My brother changed his profile picture on Facebook to the green slide and I wasn't exactly sure why.
Startale <3, ST_July <3, HongUn <3, Savior <3, Gretorp <3, Nada <3, Rainbow <3, Ret <3, Squirtle <3, Bomber <3
aike
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1629 Posts
February 27 2013 21:50 GMT
#35
On February 28 2013 05:34 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:49 aike wrote:
Time to go get a job at Blizzard :D


They're a prominent local company who does great looking work. I've talked to them before and I probably will again.

However if I were to interview or work for them, I will probably wind up going silent on TL, because I gather they look poorly on candidates or non-customer-facing employees talking about them or their work on internet forums that follow their games.


Yeah, I think it would be a fun place (and department) to work. And maybe one day you could be working on a Starcraft CG movie! ;D

What exactly did you do on Life of Pi? Or were you on other projects?
Wahaha
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
February 27 2013 22:24 GMT
#36
On February 28 2013 06:50 aike wrote:
What exactly did you do on Life of Pi? Or were you on other projects?


I did not work on Life of Pi, since when it was in production I was in the commercials group. I'm a digital lighter, meaning that I am responsible for the color, light, and shadow in digitally-rendered elements. There's also a hefty dose of managing the data coming in from other departments whose work I'm lighting.

Here's my IMDB page, if you're curious what movies I've worked on in the past. I've also done a bunch of TV commercials and a few other small projects for other purposes.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0929290/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
February 28 2013 03:53 GMT
#37
I remember the previous blog you made on the bankruptcy and couldn't help but shake my head when I heard the Jaws music play. Frigging producer. -_-
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
February 28 2013 04:34 GMT
#38
Fascinating blog post. Thanks for posting.

Can you give a bit more info about the Quebec subsidies? How could any government think that it's a good idea to do this?
aike
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1629 Posts
March 01 2013 17:08 GMT
#39
On February 28 2013 13:34 ziggurat wrote:
Fascinating blog post. Thanks for posting.

Can you give a bit more info about the Quebec subsidies? How could any government think that it's a good idea to do this?


Any government wants to bring jobs to their area. So by paying the movie companies that work with companies in VFX in their area will encourage them to do it, which encourages VFX companies to be located there, which makes more jobs, which = more taxes and happy people, etc etc etc. But it's retarded.
Wahaha
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
March 01 2013 23:07 GMT
#40
On February 28 2013 13:34 ziggurat wrote:
Can you give a bit more info about the Quebec subsidies? How could any government think that it's a good idea to do this?


Subsidies like this, in Quebec and elsewhere, are structured as a refundable tax credit for production companies who bring motion picture work to their territory. (Refundable tax credits are those that you can have paid out to you as cash to the extent that they exceed the tax you owe. In addition, the B.C. and Quebec credits, I believe, allow the money to be paid out in full even before taxes have been paid.)

Quebec provides a 60% credit on labor done by workers who have been working in Canada for over one year. So, for example, London VFX houses are laying off their workers and opening Montreal offices. Some workers are simply being told they must move to Canada or lose their jobs. Even though their work isn't eligible for the credit for the first year, the hope is that after they've been there a year, they'll start to be eligible.

Interestingly, these credits go to the production companies, not the VFX studios. So, the VFX studio isn't actually saving any money by doing this -- it's just having a better chance to get the work because the studios want the credits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
March 08 2013 19:28 GMT
#41

Today the so-called "stalking horse" bidder, the company that's first to submit a bid to purchase the company, was announced. Interestingly, it's JS Communications, whose parent company, CJ Entertainment, is the sponsor for the CJ Entus Starcraft team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
23:25
Best Games of EWC
Clem vs Solar
Serral vs Classic
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
PiGStarcraft223
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL
20:00
Team Wars - Round 2
Dewalt vs Sziky
ZZZero.O106
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft223
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 176
ZZZero.O 106
NaDa 90
yabsab 6
Stormgate
UpATreeSC355
Nina130
CosmosSc2 35
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm77
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K490
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0156
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor106
Other Games
tarik_tv16560
gofns14803
summit1g11500
Grubby2030
ViBE104
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick900
BasetradeTV30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 62
• Berry_CruncH61
• RyuSc2 54
• davetesta27
• OhrlRock 1
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler78
League of Legends
• Doublelift4977
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie1084
• Shiphtur160
Other Games
• Scarra744
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
2h 10m
RSL Revival
10h 10m
SC Evo League
12h 10m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
15h 10m
CSO Cup
16h 10m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 10h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 15h
Wardi Open
2 days
RotterdaM Event
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.