• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:28
CEST 04:28
KST 11:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall5HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL39Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? StarCraft Mass Recall: SC1 campaigns on SC2 thread How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
$5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL Help: rep cant save BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall Where did Hovz go?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 520 users

Tiebreakers

Blogs > motbob
Post a Reply
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-12-26 01:13:27
February 20 2013 18:00 GMT
#1
Here's a short (well, I planned on it being short) blog about tiebreakers and their use in eSports tournaments.

Tiebreaking rules are a necessary evil. Tournaments, especially tournaments played over a weekend, don't have time to play extra matches to break ties in group standings. In a tournament system with no scheduling or logistical constraints, extra games would be played in the event of any type of tie. We can see this principle applied in professional sports. Baseball is a sport for which it is fairly easy to play an impromptu, unscheduled game. In baseball, an extra match is played in the event that two teams lie atop the standings of their division. However, in the NFL (as with most sports), an elaborate series of tiebreakers are applied in the event of ties, and extra games are never played. It would be unthinkable to play extra games in the NFL because of scheduling and injury concerns.

Esports tournaments have generally used the policy of "Avoid tiebreaking matches at all costs." In other words, only when there does not exist any reasonable tiebreaking method whatsoever are extra matches played. In the OSL group stages, which are round-robin Bo1 groups of four, extra matches do become necessary when head-to-head tiebreakers break down as in the instance of a 2-1, 2-1, 2-1, 0-3 group (a common occurrence). MLG's system of tiebreakers, on the other hand, excludes the possibility of extra matches: their tiebreaking system is/was something like set record --> head-to-head --> higher seed. Many tournaments have adopted the MSL system of groups (what GOM currently uses), which eliminates the need for tiebreakers altogether.

The reason for this blog is that tournaments with more flexibility in their schedules, specifically online Dota 2 tournaments spread out over many weeks, have been discarding tiebreakers in favor of extra matches and getting flak for it.

The Defense plays extra matches for tiebreaks even when a team holds a head to head advantage. Na`Vi defeated 3DMAX during group play and lost to them in a tiebreaking match. In the Defense 3 thread, joinDOTA was criticized for playing an extra game instead of using the traditional H2H tiebreaker.

Ayesee is the caster for the D2L. When I asked him about the D2L's tiebreaking procedures, he stated that the only tiebreaker after match score was "games won" and that after that, an extra match would be played. Soon after tweeting that, someone replied, Wait, where's the head-to-head?

These criticisms of the tiebreaking rules of The Defense and D2L are misguided. Playing extra matches is strictly better than using a head-to-head tiebreaker. If we have two 5-2 teams in a played out group, and Team A has defeated Team B in group play, Team B has made up that loss by defeating at least one team that Team A lost to. Granting team A the right to advance from the group over Team B is essentially arbitrary. But, as discussed above, tiebreaks themselves are essentially arbitrary (except in the case of using game score after match score, which I wouldn't consider a real tiebreaker anyway). Using H2H is a necessary evil in some cases, but many esports watchers seem to find it preferable to playing an extra match even when that evil doesn't have to come to pass! I can only imagine that this is because the long history of using H2H and its status in e- and professional sports as the first tiebreaker has left the practice ingrained in the minds of fans as the right way to do things.

MLB apparently subscribes to my school of thought about tiebreakers. Extra matches are not played to determine playoff seeding in baseball—if two teams are tied atop their division, but both will make the playoffs in any event, tiebreaking rules are used and no extra matches are played. However, the situation changes when the stakes are raised. If teams are tied and one of them faces elimination from the playoffs, MLB rules prescribe the fairest way to break a tie: an extra match.

****
ModeratorGood content always wins.
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9153 Posts
February 20 2013 18:08 GMT
#2
Playoffs between tied competitors straight up answer the question that arbitrary tiebreak procedures attempt to answer: who between these set of competitors is better.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 20 2013 18:17 GMT
#3
At least time ranking is gone (lol the Defense 2). I never really thought about H2H they way you pointed out.

I like extra matches but sometimes less is more when it comes to group-stage games...
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Kyhron
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States945 Posts
February 20 2013 19:27 GMT
#4
Honestly I like the playing an extra match over H2H especially in things like DotA. There's a lot of tournaments that are spread out over weeks/months and just because Team A beat Team B at one point maybe as long as 2ish months prior that doesn't reflect the current states of the teams. One team may have been on a hot tear and has cooled off since or maybe one was in a "slump" and has since broken out of it. Also look at Starladder? lately there has been a lot of very odd non-"meta" picks teams experiment, teams play poorly, etc. there's a million reasons why the extra game is better in my eyes. And my counter argument for H2H would be "If you beat them once already you should be able to beat them again no problem"
LightTemplar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland481 Posts
February 20 2013 19:50 GMT
#5
On February 21 2013 03:17 Sn0_Man wrote:
At least time ranking is gone (lol the Defense 2). I never really thought about H2H they way you pointed out.

I like extra matches but sometimes less is more when it comes to group-stage games...


Time ranking still existed in TD3 but it was only in the tie-breakers themselves
"Thoughts are always there, the mind can't stop" - Grubby
WindWolf
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Sweden11767 Posts
February 20 2013 20:46 GMT
#6
One reason why I'm not completely fond (but not against either, I can see their practical use and I agree with the reasoning for having then) of tie-breaking matches first is that when you have 3+-way ties, you can THEORETICALLY come into a situation where you really have to play a ridiculous amount of matches before a winner is decided.
EZ4ENCE
Solarsail
Profile Joined July 2012
United Kingdom538 Posts
February 20 2013 21:27 GMT
#7
On February 21 2013 05:46 WindWolf wrote:
One reason why I'm not completely fond (but not against either, I can see their practical use and I agree with the reasoning for having then) of tie-breaking matches first is that when you have 3+-way ties, you can THEORETICALLY come into a situation where you really have to play a ridiculous amount of matches before a winner is decided.


We very nearly got a whole GOM U&D group replayed.
Everyone left over is a member of the OP race and you have to figure out which one of them is the least OP. - CosmicSpiral
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
February 20 2013 22:11 GMT
#8
I agree with you, but I guess sometimes tournaments have to use points, head-to-head comparison or something else due to schedule/lack of time issues.

p.s. motbob, I still hate you, cuz you beat me in liquibet by 1!!!!!!!!!! point and got that amazing SC2 season1 icon :D
keep it deep! @zulison
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
February 20 2013 23:02 GMT
#9
the thing that gets me about head to head scores being used is that you can make an argument that the team that won the head to head should be eliminated. because if both these teams are top, that means the head to head winner, must of lost to a really bad team, the head to head loser only lost to the other good team. so assuming you accept a bit of variance in results of close skilled teams, you can easily argue the head to head loser is the better team.

cant disagree about extra matches at all. within the time constraints a tourneys goal is to find the best team, more matches reduce variance and is therefore the definition of the best way to sort tie breaks.
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
February 20 2013 23:28 GMT
#10
What the fuck MLG with "higher seed" ?! You actually mean in case of a tie, where the lower seeded player won as many matches as the higher ranked one, the higher seed goes through ? If anything, it should be the opposite to reward a breakthrough !! I never knew that ??!
NoiR
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
February 21 2013 00:14 GMT
#11
Head to head has never been something I experienced in sports. in the UK most things are done on points, you get 3 points of a win and 1 for a draw. If you have the same points then in sports like football or hockey, goal difference is used to tie break (goal diff is goals scored minus goals against, in case you are not familiar) and thats usually all that is needed.

I had never come across a format in which head to head scores counted until i started watching american sports. So i guess the fact that game difference (wins minus losses) or how many games you have won total deciding a tiebreaker in dota makes more sense to me since its a bit like goal difference.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-21 00:19:52
February 21 2013 00:14 GMT
#12
On February 21 2013 08:28 Nouar wrote:
What the fuck MLG with "higher seed" ?! You actually mean in case of a tie, where the lower seeded player won as many matches as the higher ranked one, the higher seed goes through ? If anything, it should be the opposite to reward a breakthrough !! I never knew that ??!


these are the same people who came up with extended series, how can you be so surprised they would do something so moronic? ;p

basically at MLG with extended series, you are giving an advantage to someone they have already lost. under their old system if you beat someone round 1 winners and then met them in losers final, you would start off up at least 1 game. so both players have lost a series, one fought through the entire lower bracket to get to the final and the team that put them there lost somewhere along the way also but now have an advantage. So why not give an advantage to someone tied by using their seeds? Sounds right up MLG's street.

MLG had to completely re-work their brackets and make an even more complex system just so they can avoid their own rules, because extended series is so unpopular with sc2 fans. instead of removing it, they simply make up some extremely long winded way to make sure IT NEVER HAPPENS.

Yes, these are the people who run MLG. Why would anything they do actually make sense? It wouldn't, because thats just not MLG.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
February 21 2013 00:24 GMT
#13
Or I meant "better seed."
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
February 21 2013 01:30 GMT
#14
On February 21 2013 09:14 emythrel wrote:
Head to head has never been something I experienced in sports. in the UK most things are done on points, you get 3 points of a win and 1 for a draw. If you have the same points then in sports like football or hockey, goal difference is used to tie break (goal diff is goals scored minus goals against, in case you are not familiar) and thats usually all that is needed.

I had never come across a format in which head to head scores counted until i started watching american sports. So i guess the fact that game difference (wins minus losses) or how many games you have won total deciding a tiebreaker in dota makes more sense to me since its a bit like goal difference.


You can really only compare proleague to the national leagues of soccer. Every other SC tournament are much better compared to an actual tournament. Prior to the 2010 WC, soccer used head-to-head tiebreakers before group tiebreakers and UEFA still uses head-to-head first.
Hypertension
Profile Joined April 2011
United States802 Posts
February 22 2013 02:31 GMT
#15
This is why the MSL duel system is so much better than round robin groups. As a spectator I really love extra matches though. But I can always stop watching when things get out of hand, it is much tougher for players.

NFL does everything in its power to avoid extra games, even resorting to a coin toss in extreme circumstances:
http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures
Buy boots first. Boots good item.
AKnopf
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Germany259 Posts
February 22 2013 16:57 GMT
#16
On February 21 2013 03:08 itsjustatank wrote:
Playoffs between tied competitors straight up answer the question that arbitrary tiebreak procedures attempt to answer: who between these set of competitors is better.

Perfeclty worded in terms of fairness.
I also have to add: More games = more fun (in terms of enjoyment as a viewer)
The world - its a funny place
Doovad
Profile Joined November 2011
United States22 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 17:46:44
February 22 2013 17:43 GMT
#17


Without tiebreaker games, we wouldn't have gotten this masterpiece. But extra games is usually a terrible idea. After running a few small tournaments, both Starcraft and not, it completely kills the schedule of a tournament and makes it run way later than it should.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
February 23 2013 08:39 GMT
#18
Good read, shame that there are so few replies despite this being such a thorough article/blog entry.

It definitely is hard to say, but the one thing I can say for sure is that I highly dislike that MLG "higher-seed-goes-through" rule. That's just disappointing to me; they can do better than that. Shame that we cannot realistically do extra games for those live "offline" tournaments for lack of time.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
February 23 2013 10:41 GMT
#19
Good read. I hate H2H as a tiebreaker but I guess it's a necessary evil if there are time constraints. However a format that produces less ties (U&D format sucks) would also go a long way to fixing the issue. In extended tournaments like the GSL I also wouldn't mind having an extra day set aside for resolving tiebreak matches. It would produce quality extra content, add tension/hope for fanboys and the stronger player/team would be more likely to advance.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
HSC 27: Groups A & B
CranKy Ducklings114
Liquipedia
OSC
20:00
Mid Season Playoffs
Gerald vs MojaLIVE!
ArT vs Jumy
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft239
Nina 186
RuFF_SC2 139
NeuroSwarm 132
CosmosSc2 52
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 791
Aegong 100
NaDa 63
Icarus 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever274
League of Legends
JimRising 755
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox832
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor114
Other Games
summit1g10507
tarik_tv2264
shahzam663
Maynarde134
Mew2King44
ZombieGrub20
ProTech4
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1347
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH267
• Hupsaiya 57
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 22
• Azhi_Dahaki1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5372
• Jankos1328
• masondota2680
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
7h 32m
RSL Revival
7h 32m
ByuN vs Classic
Clem vs Cham
WardiTV European League
13h 32m
Replay Cast
21h 32m
RSL Revival
1d 7h
herO vs SHIN
Reynor vs Cure
WardiTV European League
1d 13h
FEL
1d 13h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
[ Show More ]
FEL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.