Its no surprise brood war is age old game and has its fair share of UI troubles. This has never particularly bugged me terribly as I never took online laddering too seriously. This week however has gotten me almost to the breaking point where I wanted to smash keyboard into pieces.
While I am a frequent caster for iCCup.com for Brood War I'd like to become better at understanding the game as player. At the same time I don't want to forfeit other games I love namely DOTA 2 and StarCraft 2.
To balance my exposure to each game I've set a schedule for the time I set aside for laddering. So its 1 game of DOTA 2 then 1 game of Brood War following a game of StarCraft 2. Due to the length of DOTA 2 games I go back and play one more game of Brood War and StarCraft and then repeat.
I've really found why I respect StarCraft 2 and DOTA 2 so much compared to their classic counterparts in some ways because of their multplayer.
I played DOTA 1 on iCCup for short while (~ 2 weeks) it was very difficult to find a lobby that one had decent latency and two, actually finding people who spoke English. It would take 5 to 10 minutes to find a game on average while I had to actively search for lobbies. In retrospect maybe playing on a Russian private server might not have been such a smart idea.
Brood War which is making me write this damn blog has issues very similar to DOTA 1. It takes a while to find people with decent latency so I don't click and three seconds later my command actually happens. Then there is a language barrier present. I cannot tell you the amount of times I'm trying to say something in chat like "pp" meaning "pause please" and I get the response "español" So what am I supposed to do when I have to go the bathroom? The biggest issue by far is finding an actual lobby you can join. Reiterating the latency issue people will try to host but if they have too much latency you cannot join. I'll spend anywhere from minimum 3 minutes to 15 minutes trying to find a game of Brood War. Where in StarCraft 2 I can alt-tab and maximum wait 3 minutes before I'm in a game.
There seems to be a mult-layer issue when it comes finding games for brood war for a low-rank Random player like-myself. 1) Spending 5 to 10 minutes getting into a decent lobby 2) Not getting banned / booted because I'm a random player 3) actually being able to communicate with the other player 4) Not getting massacred in 5 minutes from being out-played so badly (thus getting though all the issues then to repeat them to find another game that hopefully does not end in 5 minutes; I want to improve my mechanics not die in 5 minutes. Not a huge deal if I could find a game in a reasonable amount of time but here...)
Let's start from the beginning. I login into iCCup I find a couple games unfortunately none of the players found spoke any English. Also booted 4 times before getting into a legitimate game. It got to the point during the day iCCup was so dead no-one would play with a D- / E rank even when I hosted. What alternative do I have but to go on Fish.
Not only do I get booted from every game I can't figure the whole fricken wJoiner to work correctly. I can't get the korean language to display so no Koreans will join. It just comes up as whole bunch of "???". Unless I make my whole computer Korean it won't work which I'm not about to all my default programs to be switched into Korean again. When I finally find a game lobby I say "gg" I get insta-booted. Find yet another lobby we get into the game there is like a quarter second of lag when the game begins which then leads to them auto-leaving. Third and finally with no-lag, and no-banning because I'm a random player as it was RvR (my favorite) I write "gl hf" which immediately prompts my opponent to leave the game. So liek WTF am I supposed to do? Learn Korean? If that is the case I might as well quit BW hah.
I also have another experience on Fish a while back where I laddered much less on iCCup. I understood you needed to be logged in for 48 hours OR play 30 standard matches in order to join the ladder channels. I did BOTH and you know what I STILL COULD NOT join the ladder channels. Great huh?
I've read half-a-dozen guides on Fish and followed every single one by each direction. It is not that I don't understand it but rather how ridiculous how the only "competitive" server out there has this bullshit "etiquette". Why would someone just leave because they see a alphabetic letter? "oh no, there is a tad bit of lag I need to quit right now!" Who does that?
I am a random player, devoted one at that, who strives to play and improve their skill how do I even practice? Yea yea, I know of the whole sGs clan. I love LMaster for running the group but TBH its not the same from just laddering to me. I'd much random against randoms call me crazy.
Because of the above outlined list of issues I've had fish I am no longer ever attempting to use its services.
iCCup I will continue to ladder there as at least a "majority" of players will potentially speak English.
But really I'm so confused. Honestly why are Koreans and the Fish server so difficult to get games with. It makes it a chore to find a game. It breaks the experience terribly.
The major issue I've had to this point with my ladder schedule. Was that it would take between 45 minutes to an 1 hour to find and complete 1 game of DOTA. It would take 45 minutes to just find one game of Brood War and finish it normally. Yes I've timed it. StarCraft 2 as the games are faster and finding games is much quicker the average length of time I believe to between 15 to 25 minutes to finding a game and completing it. I can't have this 45 minute period of time trying to find a game and only get in one-game. Where I could play potentially 2 or 3 more games of StarCraft 2 or DOTA. I like to play games not sit in and jump from lobby to lobby.
How would you remedy this problem? Honestly I have no idea.
Well, you've hit the nail on the head about what I think might be BW's biggest problem.
I don't seem to have quite the trouble you do with finding games, but I certainly notice all those things.
1 - 5 minutes is usually the norm for me to get a game, unless I play really late at night when users are down around 200-300. As you probably already know, getting your ports forwarded would darn near eliminate this issue 2 - Yep, this definitely does happen. Not really sure there is much you can about it without being able to host and having in title "Me Random" 3 - Never bothered me personally. If I want to ladder I don't really intended to talk to opponents, if I want that I'll go get practice games with someone I know 4 - Not sure what could be done here other than "get better" and/or use the resources to get games with players you know have similar skill level. Fixing 1/2 would help this also, I think you said that already though.
It would take 45 minutes to just find one game of Brood War and finish it normally. Yes I've timed it.
That's pretty crazy. What is your "boot frequency" of games where they kick you for being random?
I know for me average time to game is 4-5 min during peak hour and probably 10 min at slower hours.
I don't understand your obsession with playing randoms, but people who play with practice partners never have any of these problems. In 45 minutes of any given practice session I can play 2-4 games, discuss gameplay with my friends, and not get kicked. I find it more social and fun. But to each his own.
On February 15 2013 13:48 EchOne wrote: I don't understand your obsession with playing randoms, but people who play with practice partners never have any of these problems. In 45 minutes of any given practice session I can play 2-4 games, discuss gameplay with my friends, and not get kicked. I find it more social and fun. But to each his own.
I prefer to play different opponents every time if possible. But really if BW has gotten to the point where you can no longer ladder effectively then it is a sad time.
EDIT: @LMaster you'd be amazed on how frequent people ask "race?" and you say random. They kick you. I might be the odd fish where I legit random. I don't race call thus I get all 10 match ups including RvR. The whole disucssion if that "ethical" belongs in another thread.
Have you considered simply alternating which race you play? It would be worth trying to see if the issue is mainly your insistence on choosing random. I don't boot random, but I pretty much resign myself to getting rushed by some gimmicky build by a random player. It's like THE indicator. Especially if they won't tell you what they spawned as. The population of players isn't large and many just can't be bothered to play in the dark like that.
Or if you really don't want to give up the random part, then get a dice, 1-2 Zerg, 3-4, Terran, and 5-6 Protoss. Roll as you join a game and then pick the race you get by random. Unless you really cherish builds that rely on the early game unknown advantage for a rush build, but then that goes back to my first point. Most people can't be bothered with that sort of game.
On February 15 2013 14:06 Falling wrote: Have you considered simply alternating which race you play? It would be worth trying to see if the issue is mainly your insistence on choosing random. I don't boot random, but I pretty much resign myself to getting rushed by some gimmicky build by a random player. It's like THE indicator. Especially if they won't tell you what they spawned as. The population of players isn't large and many just can't be bothered to play in the dark like that.
Or if you really don't want to give up the random part, then get a dice, 1-2 Zerg, 3-4, Terran, and 5-6 Protoss. Roll as you join a game and then pick the race you get by random. Unless you really cherish builds that rely on the early game unknown advantage for a rush build, but then that goes back to my first point. Most people can't be bothered with that sort of game.
I don't want this thread to diverge into my use of playing the "true" random. I understand where you come from in terms of rushing. But I ask you why would the community rather get rid of an entire possibility in the game? Why remove it if is there? Furthermore I am not a player to do such things. I am very open about my replays here you go here is my chart of my most recent games https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqKRPkWeBu4FdDBoN19xRGVHSzNUbmZlLS1kWWgtTGc&usp=sharing
Keep in mind I random every time in these replays. You'll notice the times of the replays vary quite significantly. Those extremely short games are not because I cheesed it is because my mechanics are pretty low thus my record of 8-42 currently and I'll just straight up die to six lings or just the standard two gate goon pressure. If you don't believe me the replays are there for your viewing pleasure.
You bring up excellent points for discussion but this is not the thread to do so. But if you were just saying this because I am random not the issue of me playing random let me explain. I understand that players don't like playing random players. Then maybe I should take away from my evidence that people leave because I'm random. That is understandable I know that coming in. But the major issue of my confusing is the people just leaving for random reasons.
On February 15 2013 14:06 Falling wrote: Have you considered simply alternating which race you play? It would be worth trying to see if the issue is mainly your insistence on choosing random. I don't boot random, but I pretty much resign myself to getting rushed by some gimmicky build by a random player. It's like THE indicator. Especially if they won't tell you what they spawned as. The population of players isn't large and many just can't be bothered to play in the dark like that.
Or if you really don't want to give up the random part, then get a dice, 1-2 Zerg, 3-4, Terran, and 5-6 Protoss. Roll as you join a game and then pick the race you get by random. Unless you really cherish builds that rely on the early game unknown advantage for a rush build, but then that goes back to my first point. Most people can't be bothered with that sort of game.
part of the problem is that if you select terran the opponent will start the game 5 4 3 2 PROTOSS 1 swoosh
no matter what his race was selected beforehand.
anyways if you are d-/E fish isn't good. In fact I don't think fish is good unless you are c- skill (not 2 gating/cheesing the way) or above.
Why do so many people play on FS? Why is LoL like one map? I dunno, it just kinda is. I'm just saying that if the time it takes to get games is really so irritating, then maybe choosing random is an issue.
However, chances are hosting is a bigger issue. The people that can host, can afford to be choosy. (At least I imagine so, I pretty much insta get a game when I host.) So they choose to not play against randoms. If you were the host, I imagine it would fill up pretty quick anyways because people that can't host cannot afford to be choosy.
@Ngenuity How do you mean? Why would you choose Terran if you intend to play Protoss?
On February 15 2013 15:15 Falling wrote: Why do so many people play on FS? Why is LoL like one map? I dunno, it just kinda is. I'm just saying that if the time it takes to get games is really so irritating, then maybe choosing random is an issue.
However, chances are hosting is a bigger issue. The people that can host, can afford to be choosy. (At least I imagine so, I pretty much insta get a game when I host.) So they choose to not play against randoms. If you were the host, I imagine it would fill up pretty quick anyways because people that can't host cannot afford to be choosy.
Did I give the impression I can't host? Its not that I can't host but on fish because of my inability to write korean characters in brood war so no one joins even if its FS. As mentioned above for english characters, tiny latency issues will have people leave.
iCCup there is such a lack of people at times it crazy.
If I gave the impression I can't host I apologize.
I assumed you couldn't host because you were talking about people banning you, trying to join games for like 45 minutes, etc. I've never had trouble getting games when hosting. Not even 5 minutes to wait on most occasions.
- Not sure about D- and below, but getting a game on iccup is super easy if you play at D or D+; it's almost instant when I host, even C- is mostly okay; maybe iccup is not friendly for D- any more....
- One reason people don't like playing against random: the person who plays random has a signficant advantage. Say I only want to play PvT, TvZ, and ZvP, I can choose random, and quit if I get bad rolls, such that the match up is always favourable for me. There is simply nothing that prevents players from abusing random to race pick.
- On Fish, type /lc to check your time remaining. It'll be something like ##??##??##?? meaning the hh:mm:ss until laddering.
- Try joining public melee games on Fish, look for games that end in #L1/2/L.
- No reason for people on Fish to play against players with latency issues, because getting games isn't a problem at all.
Really, everything here comes down to one thing: the game is old, so not as many people play it anymore. I haven't played for a couple of years, but when I did, none of this was ever an issue at all.
On February 15 2013 14:06 Falling wrote: Have you considered simply alternating which race you play? It would be worth trying to see if the issue is mainly your insistence on choosing random. I don't boot random, but I pretty much resign myself to getting rushed by some gimmicky build by a random player. It's like THE indicator. Especially if they won't tell you what they spawned as. The population of players isn't large and many just can't be bothered to play in the dark like that.
Or if you really don't want to give up the random part, then get a dice, 1-2 Zerg, 3-4, Terran, and 5-6 Protoss. Roll as you join a game and then pick the race you get by random. Unless you really cherish builds that rely on the early game unknown advantage for a rush build, but then that goes back to my first point. Most people can't be bothered with that sort of game.
I don't want this thread to diverge into my use of playing the "true" random. I understand where you come from in terms of rushing. But I ask you why would the community rather get rid of an entire possibility in the game? Why remove it if is there? Furthermore I am not a player to do such things. I am very open about my replays here you go here is my chart of my most recent gameshttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqKRPkWeBu4FdDBoN19xRGVHSzNUbmZlLS1kWWgtTGc&usp=sharing
Keep in mind I random every time in these replays. You'll notice the times of the replays vary quite significantly. Those extremely short games are not because I cheesed it is because my mechanics are pretty low thus my record of 8-42 currently and I'll just straight up die to six lings or just the standard two gate goon pressure. If you don't believe me the replays are there for your viewing pleasure.
You bring up excellent points for discussion but this is not the thread to do so. But if you were just saying this because I am random not the issue of me playing random let me explain. I understand that players don't like playing random players. Then maybe I should take away from my evidence that people leave because I'm random. That is understandable I know that coming in. But the major issue of my confusing is the people just leaving for random reasons.
The problem is that other people don't know you won't cheese, because the majority that pick random do a bunch of cheeses/allins.
You can host but it still takes you 45 min to get a game? What...if you really can't find games at D/E- then make new accounts or ask to join sgs group/skype group. At that level it really doesn't matter if you don't play different people each time.
Laddering in BW isn't hard at all. I've streamed plenty of laddering sessions on both ICCup and Fish where I get games fairly easily. You're just doing it wrong. Let me address your points:
On February 15 2013 13:21 Pucca wrote: 1) Spending 5 to 10 minutes getting into a decent lobby
I don't see how you can have this problem if you can host. If I host a D/D+ level game on ICCup, I usually get people joining within a minute. I don't know what a "decent" lobby is, but if you have lag issues it's probably because you haven't forwarded your ports correctly. The ICCup admin xboi can help you with that.
On February 15 2013 13:21 Pucca wrote: 2) Not getting banned / booted because I'm a random player
As people have suggested, stop playing random. Just roll a dice or something. Ranting about why people shouldn't ban you for playing random isn't going to change the fact that they will. As a side note, playing random will also slow your progress in getting better at the game, so if your goal really is to improve your game knowledge/understanding, I recommend choosing one race. The argument that you can learn all matchups better by playing random doesn't hold if you suck at all of them.
On February 15 2013 13:21 Pucca wrote: 3) actually being able to communicate with the other player
If you're so desperate to talk to people, join a Skype group like the sGs one. Most ladder players have no interest in talking to you even if they could (except to BM). Even on Fish, there are plenty of foreign players who ladder regularly even though they can't speak Korean. If you get banned for typing in English, there is a simple solution: stop typing in English. Just copy/paste game names from the lobby (AoEY is FS) and only type what is required to get a game (for example, 950+++++ 535#l2/1 gogo?).
On February 15 2013 13:21 Pucca wrote: 4) Not getting massacred in 5 minutes from being out-played so badly (thus getting though all the issues then to repeat them to find another game that hopefully does not end in 5 minutes; I want to improve my mechanics not die in 5 minutes. Not a huge deal if I could find a game in a reasonable amount of time but here...)
So...you're complaining that you're bad at the game? I don't really understand why this is a point.
So...you're complaining that you're bad at the game? I don't really understand why this is a point.
Doesn't mean he is bad. I remember the first few ladders I tested, I think these were Giga and WGTour. I had a similar experience, lots of 4 Pools, Proxy Gates and equally retarded all-in shit. You either defend it or you don't, doesn't make it more exciting to face eight all-ins out of ten games, regardless of how long it takes you to find another opponent or whatever you learn from playing these kind of games. However, in his case it's probably bad luck, since neither Fish nor ICCup could be compared to a ladder stage from ESL/Giga Grandslams events.
Still, Sayle is right. Join a group of players and train among them if you want to train. A ladder serves only one purpose, training. If you can't do it on the ladder, get a training network via Skype or friends list. The other reason you'd play ladder would be to get a shiny icon. That'd be bullshit in my eyes.
On February 15 2013 13:21 Pucca wrote: It takes a while to find people with decent latency so I don't click and three seconds later my command actually happens. ... "oh no, there is a tad bit of lag I need to quit right now!" Who does that?
So, you complain about lag in games, but then don't allow others to complain when they feel lag? Quite hypocritical. Just because your tolerance of lag is higher than others doesn't mean they can't leave for latency issues.
"pp" and "gg" I've noticed is quite universal. Never had problems with people not understanding that I need to pause. But I also rarely pause. I just find it universal because they pause, and ask "pp", or if I ask why, they respond in English.
I have no problems finding games on iCCup when it's peak time (when you see 600-800 people online), and especially when I host. That time also happens to between 11am EST - 5pm EST, which happens to be during prime time in Europe (5pm CET - 11pm CET). Unfortunately, if you live in Asia, that time is ~12am KST - 6am KST. I can also see why people think you can't host, because you say things like "getting booted, finding lobby". That's not something that happens when you're the host.
I doubt I'll ever get a shiny icon on iCCup with me 8-43 record hah.
@ Sayle I feel so stupid I really should have clarified better in OP let me further explain the points. 1) decent means people would not just quittjust a result the game was FS. As well as people having AH on as I don't want to play against hackers. 2) Not so much as a rant but rather my inability to understand why there is this unspoken rule to not play random player. I prefer to play 10 match ups rather than just 3 going in. It also rewards "legit" random players who learn every matchup a slight advantage in the early game but TBH is a E ranker gonna be able utilize that anytime soon as I difficulty to even keep my money below like 500 lol. 3) communication like being able to write "pp" or "pause please" for people to understand. Like I said above as well I cannot copy and paste Korean without defaulting my whole system language to Korean. If I do not and copy and paste I get ?"s instead Unfortuantely. As for sGs the small amount of time I was in there group issues would arise as at times I'd run into RP's and I'm a Random player problems arises which I don't want further discuss here. 4) It was more of a joke then anything. Dying in 5 minutes is retarded from some cheesy all-in but I get past it. My main point if it does not take as long to find a match I would not mind defending all-ins.
Before random I played a lot of Terran. I'm sure you know TvPnisnquite the common match-up due RP's. I almost never got the chance to play TvT because I was Terran. Constantly playing TvP or the occanionl TvZ. Random I simply have a higher frequency of TvT's and other match-ups.
Slow improvement is fine with me. 8-43 does not bother me one bit. Stuck in the Silver League of sc2 for two years now. Do I understand the game at this point after casting for a whole year I hope so. Executing and understanding game sense is completely different every game and every mp.
My point if this thread / blog is trying to understand these seemingly unspoken rules of BW. I know they have always been there I just can't understand why play all players justify them.
@nagi That quote is just what I believe what goes on in the Koreans mind not mine. Again my poor ability to be clear in my writing unfortantely. Also fun fact if I was to ask "why" knowing my luck and experience it would be followed with a "has left the game!"
On February 15 2013 23:28 Pucca wrote: I doubt I'll ever get a shiny icon on iCCup with me 8-43 record hah.
@ Sayle I feel so stupid I really should have clarified better in OP let me further explain the points. 1) decent means people would not just quittjust a result the game was FS. As well as people having AH on as I don't want to play against hackers. 2) Not so much as a rant but rather my inability to understand why there is this unspoken rule to not play random player. I prefer to play 10 match ups rather than just 3 going in. It also rewards "legit" random players who learn every matchup a slight advantage in the early game but TBH is a E ranker gonna be able utilize that anytime soon as I difficulty to even keep my money below like 500 lol. 3) communication like being able to write "pp" or "pause please" for people to understand. Like I said above as well I cannot copy and paste Korean without defaulting my whole system language to Korean. If I do not and copy and paste I get ?"s instead Unfortuantely. As for sGs the small amount of time I was in there group issues would arise as at times I'd run into RP's and I'm a Random player problems arises which I don't want further discuss here. 4) It was more of a joke then anything. Dying in 5 minutes is retarded from some cheesy all-in but I get past it. My main point if it does not take as long to find a match I would not mind defending all-ins.
Before random I played a lot of Terran. I'm sure you know TvPnisnquite the common match-up due RP's. I almost never got the chance to play TvT because I was Terran. Constantly playing TvP or the occanionl TvZ. Random I simply have a higher frequency of TvT's and other match-ups.
Slow improvement is fine with me. 8-43 does not bother me one bit. Stuck in the Silver League of sc2 for two years now. Do I understand the game at this point after casting for a whole year I hope so. Executing and understanding game sense is completely different every game and every mp.
My point if this thread / blog is trying to understand these seemingly unspoken rules of BW. I know they have always been there I just can't understand why play all players justify them.
@nagi That quote is just what I believe what goes on in the Koreans mind not mine. Again my poor ability to be clear in my writing unfortantely. Also fun fact if I was to ask "why" knowing my luck and experience it would be followed with a "has left the game!"
It's shit to open vs. Random players when you really try to improve your game. The probability to find a "serious" (good) random player in a tournament is almost zero, same goes for most more or less serious leagues. If I want to train, I'd like to know the race of my opponent. If I'm Protoss, I don't want to scout a Zerg and being forced to execute a highly risky one base build when my goal is to train my macro, especially on non-standard maps that are set as MOTW and on which I played only little. If I play Terran, I hate it to be forced to build a wall and prepare mech. It's a lot of guessing. I don't mind that in games for fun, but not when I want to really train and improve my style I'll use in tours/leagues. Additionally, especially on ladder, most of the random idiots are also all-in idiots who try to get easy wins, which also doesn't help me to train. At all. I didn't really dodge them on ICCup in the red ranks, but I thought twice before starting a game when the opposing player never selected a race.
Pucca, perhaps I can shed some light on the 'I don't want to play vs Random' phenomenum
I always ask people to pick a race because I feel like I'm still learning the game. Same reason I don't cheese and I hate playing against people who go 2port wraith. My priority is to first get my standard zvp and zvt up to the point where I can play d/d+.
I want to know what build I'm doing and focus on execution, playing vs random mostly means playing from behind, or starting from an opening you would never do normally, which means I'm going against what limited practice I actually manage. So if you won't pick a race, i kick you and someone else joins in <2mins.
EPT
