On January 23 2013 22:08 Salazarz wrote: While Korean education system is pretty harsh, it does produce much better results than Western education does. You can't deny the fact that on average, Koreans are far more hard-working and dedicated than literally any other society. The whole thing about 'studying too hard kills creativity' is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of excellent artists, designers etc in Korea - they're just not very well-known in the English-speaking world, but then again how much do you know about the creative world of, say, Poland, Cambodia, or Argentina?
The same 'working too much' thing propagates to adult lives as well, not just studies. They work longer hours than pretty much anyone else and have fewer holidays; they are usually much more serious about their family planning and whatnot than Western people. It's a stressful environment to live in, no doubt, but you can't deny there are positive sides to it, too. To claim that it's just their education system that is terrible and needs to be changed is extremely short-sighted and doesn't take the entire picture into account.
I agree with this, despite the intense hours it does produce a very diligent society of which almost everyone has a decent level of education. There's far less deadshits/dropouts than you'd find in western countries. I personally think Koreans take the rote learning too far and need to focus more on teaching students how to think rather than regurgitate. Nevertheless they're still significantly ahead of the US/Australia in terms of base levels of education. The focus on how important education is, though often a bit misguided, is still a great thing about this country and is a big part of why it's doing so well.
As for the OP I agree burn outs are a problem but I don't find the prestigious circle-jerk that is university rankings relevant.
On January 23 2013 22:08 Salazarz wrote: While Korean education system is pretty harsh, it does produce much better results than Western education does. You can't deny the fact that on average, Koreans are far more hard-working and dedicated than literally any other society. The whole thing about 'studying too hard kills creativity' is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of excellent artists, designers etc in Korea - they're just not very well-known in the English-speaking world, but then again how much do you know about the creative world of, say, Poland, Cambodia, or Argentina?
The same 'working too much' thing propagates to adult lives as well, not just studies. They work longer hours than pretty much anyone else and have fewer holidays; they are usually much more serious about their family planning and whatnot than Western people. It's a stressful environment to live in, no doubt, but you can't deny there are positive sides to it, too. To claim that it's just their education system that is terrible and needs to be changed is extremely short-sighted and doesn't take the entire picture into account.
Thing is they don't work efficiently when it comes to working in offices. They will take 2 hours for lunch, they will sleep at their desks (something that happens a lot in schools too), they will internet shop for a few hours then do what they need to do. It seems like they work, but if they just got down to business, and not mess around so much then they'd have much more free time. They just feel expected to stay till late, which is why they do it.
Korean education does kill creativity, because creativity is not promoted. I've seen students do amazing art work, only to get put down by their parents because it's not academic. Their design industry was a joke for many years, and has only recently started to develop. There was a saying like 10-15 years ago which was something along the lines of Korean products work, they're just ugly. Think of the Korean car companies. Companies like Daewoo and Kia, their cars were functional but ugly as sin. Yes they've changed, but they've just copied other designs and added a few differences. Samsung pushes out Renault cars in Korea. Name a Korean animated program. There are a few, but they are generally poorly accepted outside of Korea. They have a few artists, but even they have troubles due to the fact that they're not conformist. Conformity does not harbor creativity unfortunately.
I will admit that generally they are very family orientated, but that has less to do with their work ethic. They have to 'plan' time with their families because they don't have long to spend with them. They will get those few weekends or those few holidays and they will go out and do something, instead of just spending time together at home or whatever. They also have less holidays but is that a bad thing? Germany has one of the highest holiday rates and they are well known for efficiency.
Their education system is not terrible, it's really good, but it is insanely hard and soul destroying. If I were to ask kids tomorrow what they did for their vacation time, they will unanimously say 'Study, went to hagwon, watch TV and play games'. On their winter vacation, they still have to go study, they don't get a break at all. Most of us here can look back at our childhoods and think, 'shit, those were the days', but Students here can't. In fact, adults don't discipline their children until they reach school age because it's the only time in their life that they are actually free.
As a popular saying goes
Work smarter not harder.
Edit
I agree with this, despite the intense hours it does produce a very diligent society of which almost everyone has a decent level of education. There's far less deadshits/dropouts than you'd find in western countries. I personally think Koreans take the rote learning too far and need to focus more on teaching students how to think rather than regurgitate. Nevertheless they're still significantly ahead of the US/Australia in terms of base levels of education. The focus on how important education is, though often a bit misguided, is still a great thing about this country and is a big part of why it's doing so well.
Agree, there are less dead shits out here, but there are still many. They are the nicest people you will meet, and their high school pass rate is like 97%, and that's definitely an amazing thing. I don't deny it's amazing, it really is.
On January 23 2013 22:08 Salazarz wrote: While Korean education system is pretty harsh, it does produce much better results than Western education does. You can't deny the fact that on average, Koreans are far more hard-working and dedicated than literally any other society. The whole thing about 'studying too hard kills creativity' is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of excellent artists, designers etc in Korea - they're just not very well-known in the English-speaking world, but then again how much do you know about the creative world of, say, Poland, Cambodia, or Argentina?
The same 'working too much' thing propagates to adult lives as well, not just studies. They work longer hours than pretty much anyone else and have fewer holidays; they are usually much more serious about their family planning and whatnot than Western people. It's a stressful environment to live in, no doubt, but you can't deny there are positive sides to it, too. To claim that it's just their education system that is terrible and needs to be changed is extremely short-sighted and doesn't take the entire picture into account.
Thing is they don't work efficiently when it comes to working in offices. They will take 2 hours for lunch, they will sleep at their desks (something that happens a lot in schools too), they will internet shop for a few hours then do what they need to do. It seems like they work, but if they just got down to business, and not mess around so much then they'd have much more free time. They just feel expected to stay till late, which is why they do it.
Korean education does kill creativity, because creativity is not promoted. I've seen students do amazing art work, only to get put down by their parents because it's not academic. Their design industry was a joke for many years, and has only recently started to develop. There was a saying like 10-15 years ago which was something along the lines of Korean products work, they're just ugly. Think of the Korean car companies. Companies like Daewoo and Kia, their cars were functional but ugly as sin. Yes they've changed, but they've just copied other designs and added a few differences. Samsung pushes out Renault cars in Korea. Name a Korean animated program. There are a few, but they are generally poorly accepted outside of Korea. They have a few artists, but even they have troubles due to the fact that they're not conformist. Conformity does not harbor creativity unfortunately.
I will admit that generally they are very family orientated, but that has less to do with their work ethic. They have to 'plan' time with their families because they don't have long to spend with them. They will get those few weekends or those few holidays and they will go out and do something, instead of just spending time together at home or whatever. They also have less holidays but is that a bad thing? Germany has one of the highest holiday rates and they are well known for efficiency.
Their education system is not terrible, it's really good, but it is insanely hard and soul destroying. If I were to ask kids tomorrow what they did for their vacation time, they will unanimously say 'Study, went to hagwon, watch TV and play games'. On their winter vacation, they still have to go study, they don't get a break at all. Most of us here can look back at our childhoods and think, 'shit, those were the days', but Students here can't. In fact, adults don't discipline their children until they reach school age because it's the only time in their life that they are actually free.
As a popular saying goes
Work smarter not harder.
Ugh, you're taking your opinions and (seemingly quite limited) personal experiences and putting them down as facts. Of course Korean design industry was a joke 15 years ago - 20 years ago they still had entire towns with no electricity or hot water around the country!! You say Korean parents don't promote their children for being creative - but how is that any different in other countries? Thousands of parents in EU or US tell their kids to put away their paintbrush / guitar / whatever and "do something useful" instead. It's the same there. They don't have "a few" artists, for a country that was in the gutter a couple decades ago and is still very much a developing society they have an amazing amount of creative works. Their cars were shit 15 years ago, as were their electronics - but they're long since past the 'copy Japanese designs' phase, likewise their TV, music, literature is very authentic and unique.
Of course a lot of artists in Korea have trouble - but is it any different in any other part of the world? The ones who don't follow the current mainstream trends find it very difficult to break out, just like anywhere else - but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Have you even been around Hongdae or Dongdaemun on a weekend? I don't know how you can say this is a country that has no creativity.
Yes, their education system is insanely hard - but it's through this education system and work ethic that they learned through it (what you say about them being lazy and only spending long hours at work because "its what everyone does" is just bullshit, lol) that Korea crawled out of the awful ditch they were in. Their Starcraft players are a clear example of this culture of hard work.
Of course they need to change their education system - just like they need to get rid of 60 hour work weeks and 10 holiday days work years - but it's going to be a very long and gradual process, which will likely only really start once the current generation grows older and start taking active part in the government.
On January 23 2013 22:08 Salazarz wrote: While Korean education system is pretty harsh, it does produce much better results than Western education does. You can't deny the fact that on average, Koreans are far more hard-working and dedicated than literally any other society. The whole thing about 'studying too hard kills creativity' is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of excellent artists, designers etc in Korea - they're just not very well-known in the English-speaking world, but then again how much do you know about the creative world of, say, Poland, Cambodia, or Argentina?
The same 'working too much' thing propagates to adult lives as well, not just studies. They work longer hours than pretty much anyone else and have fewer holidays; they are usually much more serious about their family planning and whatnot than Western people. It's a stressful environment to live in, no doubt, but you can't deny there are positive sides to it, too. To claim that it's just their education system that is terrible and needs to be changed is extremely short-sighted and doesn't take the entire picture into account.
Thing is they don't work efficiently when it comes to working in offices. They will take 2 hours for lunch, they will sleep at their desks (something that happens a lot in schools too), they will internet shop for a few hours then do what they need to do. It seems like they work, but if they just got down to business, and not mess around so much then they'd have much more free time. They just feel expected to stay till late, which is why they do it.
Korean education does kill creativity, because creativity is not promoted. I've seen students do amazing art work, only to get put down by their parents because it's not academic. Their design industry was a joke for many years, and has only recently started to develop. There was a saying like 10-15 years ago which was something along the lines of Korean products work, they're just ugly. Think of the Korean car companies. Companies like Daewoo and Kia, their cars were functional but ugly as sin. Yes they've changed, but they've just copied other designs and added a few differences. Samsung pushes out Renault cars in Korea. Name a Korean animated program. There are a few, but they are generally poorly accepted outside of Korea. They have a few artists, but even they have troubles due to the fact that they're not conformist. Conformity does not harbor creativity unfortunately.
I will admit that generally they are very family orientated, but that has less to do with their work ethic. They have to 'plan' time with their families because they don't have long to spend with them. They will get those few weekends or those few holidays and they will go out and do something, instead of just spending time together at home or whatever. They also have less holidays but is that a bad thing? Germany has one of the highest holiday rates and they are well known for efficiency.
Their education system is not terrible, it's really good, but it is insanely hard and soul destroying. If I were to ask kids tomorrow what they did for their vacation time, they will unanimously say 'Study, went to hagwon, watch TV and play games'. On their winter vacation, they still have to go study, they don't get a break at all. Most of us here can look back at our childhoods and think, 'shit, those were the days', but Students here can't. In fact, adults don't discipline their children until they reach school age because it's the only time in their life that they are actually free.
As a popular saying goes
Work smarter not harder.
Ugh, you're taking your opinions and (seemingly quite limited) personal experiences and putting them down as facts. Of course Korean design industry was a joke 15 years ago - 20 years ago they still had entire towns with no electricity or hot water around the country!! You say Korean parents don't promote their children for being creative - but how is that any different in other countries? Thousands of parents in EU or US tell their kids to put away their paintbrush / guitar / whatever and "do something useful" instead. It's the same there. They don't have "a few" artists, for a country that was in the gutter a couple decades ago and is still very much a developing society they have an amazing amount of creative works. Their cars were shit 15 years ago, as were their electronics - but they're long since past the 'copy Japanese designs' phase, likewise their TV, music, literature is very authentic and unique.
Of course a lot of artists in Korea have trouble - but is it any different in any other part of the world? The ones who don't follow the current mainstream trends find it very difficult to break out, just like anywhere else - but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Have you even been around Hongdae or Dongdaemun on a weekend? I don't know how you can say this is a country that has no creativity.
Yes, their education system is insanely hard - but it's through this education system and work ethic that they learned through it (what you say about them being lazy and only spending long hours at work because "its what everyone does" is just bullshit, lol) that Korea crawled out of the awful ditch they were in. Their Starcraft players are a clear example of this culture of hard work.
Of course they need to change their education system - just like they need to get rid of 60 hour work weeks and 10 holiday days work years - but it's going to be a very long and gradual process, which will likely only really start once the current generation grows older and start taking active part in the government.
You say something like this and then precede to do so yourself, and in so doing degrade the rest of your, admittedly interesting, post.
The hours that you are expected to study in Korea are insane. Maybe it was a good way to get out of depression (I say maybe because I don't consider that a fact), but it sure as hell isn't a good way to develop a healthy and happy society. I would compare it to war time production. Sure, it makes sense during war, but no sense during peace time.
It is blatantly obvious that Korean society has a skewered perception of values, let's not forget that the schooling system is just an industry for educating people, not a measure of someone's worth. And don't get me started on their values of physical beauty and commonplace of plastic surgery...
In norway. The high school didn't allow me to take all science classes. This is one of the "respected" high schools in Norway. Kathedral high school. I took all the most difficult classes of Physics, Math, Chemistry and a lot of other extra curriculum. I got the best grade in all classes except for "New Norwegian" where I got a 5 as we have it in Norway. I was not allowed to study Biology full with all 3 years of high school. So I had to take it privately. As in studying at home and taking the exam at an examination office.
Hah USA for the win. While there these statics might be biased when they were gathered I still hold strong to my believe in the USA educational system. However despite my support of the current system of education in the US, it has its faults like 50,000 or 60,000$ per year to gain entry to Harvard, Yale MIT ect.
If I would go to Harvard. I would have to pay 3 times more than I pay here where I study now. And I would have to finish a bachelor degree in addition to my extreme amount of extra curriculum. It's funny how you think you are special with all this + top grade in every single subject. And you get an email about your application saying you are not good enough. I felt very sad that day.
On January 24 2013 04:17 Pucca wrote: Hah USA for the win. While there these statics might be biased when they were gathered I still hold strong to my believe in the USA educational system. However despite my support of the current system of education in the US, it has its faults like 50,000 or 60,000$ per year to gain entry to Harvard, Yale MIT ect.
Everyone criticizes the tuition for the top schools, but in reality, it all depends on where you fall in the income bracket. Most top-tier USA universities offer very good financial aid packages to students who demonstrate need, especially the schools you listed. Hell, even top LACs in the USA offer extremely good deals. Even the infamously "stingy" schools offer decent money.
This isn't to say that there's nothing to be criticized, but if you want to criticize cost of education in the USA, definitely don't point at the Ivies, MIT, or Stanford. Sure, their on-paper tuitions are sky-high, but they have the best financial aid in the country. Sometimes the deal there is so good that it costs less to attend these schools than it does to attend your local state college.
On January 24 2013 04:17 Pucca wrote: Hah USA for the win. While there these statics might be biased when they were gathered I still hold strong to my believe in the USA educational system. However despite my support of the current system of education in the US, it has its faults like 50,000 or 60,000$ per year to gain entry to Harvard, Yale MIT ect.
Everyone criticizes the tuition for the top schools, but in reality, it all depends on where you fall in the income bracket. Most top-tier USA universities offer very good financial aid packages to students who demonstrate need, especially the schools you listed. Hell, even top LACs in the USA offer extremely good deals. Even the infamously "stingy" schools offer decent money.
This isn't to say that there's nothing to be criticized, but if you want to criticize cost of education in the USA, definitely don't point at the Ivies, MIT, or Stanford. Sure, their on-paper tuitions are sky-high, but they have the best financial aid in the country. Sometimes the deal there is so good that it costs less to attend these schools than it does to attend your local state college.
I would say the most expensive school after all of that is probably NYU. After demonstrating need, my friend still paid like 50,000$ / yr
The good about US is that you can pretty much buy any kind of education you want. In Europe, as was said you need to pass exams to get into universities. Your uni opportunities are based on what you did in HS. Besides the tuition issues, you US guys need to make sure you make good investments in your education and avoid worthless degrees.
On January 25 2013 18:55 50bani wrote: The good about US is that you can pretty much buy any kind of education you want. In Europe, as was said you need to pass exams to get into universities. Your uni opportunities are based on what you did in HS. Besides the tuition issues, you US guys need to make sure you make good investments in your education and avoid worthless degrees.
I don't know where you heard this, but its not true, at least for 99.9% of the population. its not just money that's holding people back from attending top univerisities. ever heard of SAT?
On January 25 2013 18:55 50bani wrote: The good about US is that you can pretty much buy any kind of education you want. In Europe, as was said you need to pass exams to get into universities. Your uni opportunities are based on what you did in HS. Besides the tuition issues, you US guys need to make sure you make good investments in your education and avoid worthless degrees.
I don't know where you heard this, but its not true, at least for 99.9% of the population. its not just money that's holding people back from attending top univerisities. ever heard of SAT?
SAT always has an income level bias though.....
the manifestation of income disparity on education occurs earlier than the SAT (high school; ages 15-18) though. It's more that people with higher socioeconomic backgrounds get better education ages, say, 6-12, which builds up the fundamentals to learn things age 13-18, which makes you more likely to become an engineer/doctor/lawyer/whatever to go to a top university, etc etc etc. It snowballs.
Anyways, I don't have much to say without researching stuff but Seoul National University seems to be a tuition significantly less than private schools (or even top public schools) in the united states. Their website says 6000 USD per semester but then a chart for a 2010 tuition rate seems to be listed in KRW, where most programs of study are like 3 million KRW (~3000 USD let's say) for a semester. Some other website says 5,800,000 KRW for a year.
On January 25 2013 18:55 50bani wrote: The good about US is that you can pretty much buy any kind of education you want. In Europe, as was said you need to pass exams to get into universities. Your uni opportunities are based on what you did in HS. Besides the tuition issues, you US guys need to make sure you make good investments in your education and avoid worthless degrees.
I don't know where you heard this, but its not true, at least for 99.9% of the population. its not just money that's holding people back from attending top univerisities. ever heard of SAT?
SAT always has an income level bias though.....
the manifestation of income disparity on education occurs earlier than the SAT (high school; ages 15-18) though. It's more that people with higher socioeconomic backgrounds get better education ages, say, 6-12, which builds up the fundamentals to learn things age 13-18, which makes you more likely to become an engineer/doctor/lawyer/whatever to go to a top university, etc etc etc. It snowballs.
Anyways, I don't have much to say without researching stuff but Seoul National University seems to be a tuition significantly less than private schools (or even top public schools) in the united states. Their website says 6000 USD per semester but then a chart for a 2010 tuition rate seems to be listed in KRW, where most programs of study are like 3 million KRW (~3000 USD let's say) for a semester. Some other website says 5,800,000 KRW for a year.
Your point is very, very accurate. It's not just that they get "better education," though. It's also that they're raised in environments that value education and view it as a highly important (and effective!) means to an end. Not only are, say, middle-income and high-income families much more likely to send their kids to better middle/high schools, they also will spend more time drilling the importance of education into their kids' heads. Compare this to a low-income family that needs all its members to work as soon as they're of-age simply because they need the money to be able to pay rent. Sure, education is important, but it's not as important as survival.
(Which is why, incidentally, affirmative action is a joke. The ones that benefit the most from affirmative action are not actually low-income URMs, they're middle- to high-income URMs, while low-income whites and ORMs get horribly shafted.
There is also a culture-education-income component, of course. See: Asians and the emphasis on education, leading to an average income level that sits in the middle-income bracket.)
I still disagree that you can "buy" any kind of education that you want, simply because the competition for admission into the top schools is so harsh these days. Even if you get a 2300+ on the SAT, you're not guaranteed acceptance into any of the top universities. 2300+'s are a dime a dozen in the applicant pool. You need to prove you're "special" in other annoyingly intangible ways.
EPT
