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After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen.
  
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if you want to play league of legends, play league of legends, lol
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-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
The hidden MMR is to remove comparisons and set the idea of improvement on yourself. This has always been Valve's goal since TF2 and should be. You have levels, wins, most accomplished heros and tracking items like number of kills with your ultimate, etc.
These helps players feel like they're improving (Along with coming achievements) rather than create cynical comparisons with other players (K/D ratios, etc.)
All your complaints about Dota 2 aren't about Dota 2, but what surrounds it.
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LoL's "magic numbers" are going to be removed, btw. We are not happy about it.
Btw all those complaints exist in LoL and those are not valid complaints at all.
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On January 20 2013 04:46 Sufficiency wrote:
LoL's "magic numbers" are going to be removed, btw. We are not happy about it.
Btw all those complaints exist in LoL and those are not valid complaints at all.
No they arent they just create separate divisions.They are completely valid for me. Since this is my opinion and the way i see the game and what i think is missing. it might be different for you. You are entitled to your opinion.
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On January 20 2013 04:33 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items? The hidden MMR is to remove comparisons and set the idea of improvement on yourself. This has always been Valve's goal since TF2 and should be. You have levels, wins, most accomplished heros and tracking items like number of kills with your ultimate, etc. These helps players feel like they're improving (Along with coming achievements) rather than create cynical comparisons with other players (K/D ratios, etc.)
All your complaints about Dota 2 aren't about Dota 2, but what surrounds it.
Its what surrounds a game that makes it great. Not just a waste of your life.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
The vast majority of LoL's playerbase doesn't even play ranked on a regular basis. Visible MMR actually caters to a minority.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
Valid. Both ideas are only really partially fleshed out, and I expect Valve to put effort into improving them once they move higher on the list of priorities.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
Wouldn't say most of the time. Depends on what modes you queue/who you queue with.
When Valve expands the mode pool/adds new features like team matchmaking, it will help to sort out some of the matchmaking issues.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
While I'm afraid I can't relate directly, most European players tell me that ping to USE isn't that bad for them.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
Probably on the list of expanded social features like mentoring/etc. that's on Valve's to-do list.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
This is an issue endemic to the genre and to the nature of teamplay-oriented games in general. Not specific to DotA 2.
On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Players actually do get punished for reports more harshly than just LP queue.
Overall some legitimate complaints, but some not all that well-thought-out.
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I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches.
Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game.
+
Under those magical LOL numbers i also mean the points you get with which you can purchase new heroes/skins etc. Thats also progress on a smaller scale.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:17 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches. Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game.
See that's the problem I raised. You can't arbitrarily label heroes as supports, carries, gankers, or other roles as easily as you can in LoL. Outside of a few extremes of obvious carries and obvious supports, there is an enormous area of overlap over how heroes can be played, and it's unreasonable for Valve to make those kinds of distinctions.
LoL has an easier time with this because by design the majority of heroes are designed INTO a particular role, whereas Icefrog's hero design is much more organic.
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The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team.
edit: Regarding no punishment, there are 2 major issues. The first is that is seems extremely lax (if half of what I thought should be a bannable offense for repeat offenders counted, probably 30-40% of the player base would be gone). The second is that even if somehow someone does get BANNED (which I'm not even sure can happen) everyone has like 5+ keys on their account, so they can just use a different account.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team.
It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well.
You can't really easily tackle that issue because of the way playing a coordinated game with 5 people is totally different from playing one with 5 random people who don't know each other, and don't have any form of communication other than chat/pings.
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On January 20 2013 05:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:17 AKRW wrote:I think this mode could present a lot of problems (e.g. you can't arbitrarily define a specific subset of heroes as supports/carries because these things are not always that granular, which means someone could queue as a support and then pick a carry to grief his team--plus the number of supports/carries on a team is not set in stone). It's an interesting idea but poses a lot of problems in terms of implementation that I don't think are worth the headaches. Not if you restrict the pool for roles so that those that sign up as support cant pick a carry. Hell you might not even want every here present. But a rotation of 5 heroes / role / week. Maybe not the best solution but at least would present a somewhat balanced way to play the game. See that's the problem I raised. You can't arbitrarily label heroes as supports, carries, gankers, or other roles as easily as you can in LoL. Outside of a few extremes of obvious carries and obvious supports, there is an enormous area of overlap over how heroes can be played, and it's unreasonable for Valve to make those kinds of distinctions. LoL has an easier time with this because by design the majority of heroes are designed INTO a particular role, whereas Icefrog's hero design is much more organic.
I havent played much LOL. Not a fan of the game so i dont know how it is there. But in Dota2 the heroes are already labeled maybe not 100% accurate but better than nothing.
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On January 20 2013 05:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team. It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well.
Probably. I only played LoL for a little while, and never played HoN. I guess these types of games really just aren't for me. They are fun every once in a while but the minute you try to take it seriously, you are bound to be disappointed.
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On January 20 2013 05:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:22 HardlyNever wrote:
The biggest issue you mentioned, to me, is that you can barely play "real" dota in pubs. The random crap that happens in the average game of dota has nothing to do with "competitive" play, as you call it. It is so far from anything coherent or cooperative it feels like 10 random people just playing random heroes.
At least in SC2 I can do things that resemble "pro" play. Of course I can't execute the same, but my games at least resemble something that I would call a coherent game of sc2. This is impossible in pubs. The game is too complex for the vast majority of the player base. These are the bronze and silver league players of sc2. They simply don't care about improving at the game, and it shows, so there is nothing you can do to improve at the game, outside of joining a team. It's as true in DotA as it is in any other teamplay-based game. It's most definitely true in HoN and LoL as well. You can't really easily tackle that issue because of the way playing a coordinated game with 5 people is totally different from playing one with 5 random people who don't know each other, and don't have any form of communication other than chat/pings.
it is possible in pubs to have coherent and clean teamplay, but somebody simply cant jump into it without a pile of knowledge and experience and willing teammates. if people dont want to commit the time for it because they dont think pub dota is fun and games dont look like games from TI2, guess what! much of the mechanics and decisionmaking in pub dota is foundational to competitive dota. if you dont want to bother pubbing dont bother playing dota or hon or lol
i've also heard a million times that you cant improve if your teammates are trash, which is simply untrue
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Australia7069 Posts
Another issue with the whole "queue as support/carry" etc is how the lanes get assigned. Like do you force all games to be 2 support/1 long lane/1 mid/ 1 carry?
by forcing that kind of setup, or whatever setup you think is correct you remove the beauty of dota, which is that the same set of heroes can end up in completely different lane setups. do u wanna play axe as your solo mid to counter a TA or is he in the jungle to open up another solo lane? do you run an agressive trilane in a dual carry lineup or have a solo long lane with a trilane carry?
dota isn't a one setup game, and that's why your idea cant work without seriously diminishing it.
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On January 20 2013 05:47 Kiante wrote:
Another issue with the whole "queue as support/carry" etc is how the lanes get assigned. Like do you force all games to be 2 support/1 long lane/1 mid/ 1 carry?
by forcing that kind of setup, or whatever setup you think is correct you remove the beauty of dota, which is that the same set of heroes can end up in completely different lane setups. do u wanna play axe as your solo mid to counter a TA or is he in the jungle to open up another solo lane? do you run an agressive trilane in a dual carry lineup or have a solo long lane with a trilane carry?
dota isn't a one setup game, and that's why your idea cant work without seriously diminishing it.
Yeah but we are talking about a pub game. These things can be discussed in chat and people either listen or they dont. You dont force any kind of setup you just limit the pool so the composition makes sense so you dont end up with 3 mid heroes on your team or 5 carries.
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Australia7069 Posts
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid?
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On January 20 2013 06:08 Kiante wrote:
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid?
The whole point is that if you queue as support you wouldn't be able to play SD. You would have to queue as mid.
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Dota2, like league, is a game best played with 4 other friends you actually know lol. Solo-queue is pretty bad I will agree.
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On January 20 2013 06:28 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:08 Kiante wrote:
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid? The whole point is that if you queue as support you wouldn't be able to play SD. You would have to queue as mid.
SD = Shadow Demon, right?
I've played him multiple times as support.
That is the point of the others, there are heroes which can fulfill different roles.
On the other hand, I agree that it wouldnt be too bad if there's a system where I can queue as "support". Just without hero restrictions.
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Australia7069 Posts
sd is a support hero in the majority of games.
if people are honest in their queuing then the carry/mid queues will be HUGELY higher than the support queues. which means people will queue support, and not play support. it's a pointless endeavor that creates more problems than it solves.
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if you want "real dota" games find/create a team and go clan wars on dota2.cw or queue cm with stack. It always was and it always will be like that. Saying you don't have real games in pub in dota, well, do you have them in hon, lol, cs, quake (talking about tdm, ca, ctf) or any other team based game? Not really.
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I feel similar everytime I spend a week playing dota.. the biggest thing that kept me interested into HoN was the ladder; knowing the further you climb up, not only do the games get better, but you might have a possibility to actually team up with good players because you have proof you are a competent player with a good ladder ranking. Its the same as SC2, if there was no ladder to show whos good, how would you find new up and coming players to recruite? Or rather, how would new up-coming players PROVE they are actually good? Tournaments are run by koreans, not like they have a chance anyways. I know ladder isnt EVERYTHING but its a big part of competitive games and its that first step of "getting your feet wet" against top competition.. You can go on to say the SC2 ladder is infested with hackers and cheesers but I still feel confident knowing someone whos top 50 GM is someone I'd want to face for practice, know what I mean?
Dota2 needs a leaderboard for MMR, otherwise you just play 100s of games for no reason, no goal in mind.
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It will sound as a meme paste but I really stopped reading at the point where you demanded a reward for playing the game.
As if the game is not the reward by itself.
People these days.
You should play wow or something, you will enjoy that, ).
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The biggest problem I see with visible MMR as it is in LoL is that people begin to play simply to raise an arbitrary number, and not for the fun of the game itself. It doesn't matter how "good" you are, MMR is just a variable the server uses to ensure that people of similar "skill" get together so the games get more close and exciting.
I am using the word "skill" between quotes here, because MMR is a very indirect representation of the unquantifiable concept of skill. If humans have such a difficult time estimating how good they are at something, how should the game know it? Many people don't even get to play enough games for the system to gather enough data points to reliably slot them into a "skill" bracket. You are putting much trust into the game by blindly accepting a number as validation for "how good you are".
As for the point of not getting to see how the performance bars are calculated: If you would see that, would you begin gaming the system? Like, say the XPM is the most important factor in that, would you just care about the XPM on your heroes to get the longest possible performance bar? If people start doing that, and other people realise it, they're not going to trust the rating as much anymore because they'd see it as exploitable.
It's all a matter of statistics, and statistics will always be able to be manipulated in some way, either by the ones compiling them (Valve) or the people who actually provide the data points (the players), so don't rely on them all too much and just have fun playing the game.
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On January 20 2013 05:06 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:33 Torte de Lini wrote:-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers. Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items? The hidden MMR is to remove comparisons and set the idea of improvement on yourself. This has always been Valve's goal since TF2 and should be. You have levels, wins, most accomplished heros and tracking items like number of kills with your ultimate, etc. These helps players feel like they're improving (Along with coming achievements) rather than create cynical comparisons with other players (K/D ratios, etc.)
All your complaints about Dota 2 aren't about Dota 2, but what surrounds it. Its what surrounds a game that makes it great. Not just a waste of your life.
If you seek a progressive feeling through your entertainment, then I suggest you start new hobbies where the act fulfills your time and enjoyment.
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Not to be that guy but you do have to wallow through a shit ton of bad people and get better before you end up with games that resemble competitive dota. If none of your games resemble competitive dota it just means you either don't have the skillset or aren't trying hard enough (I go through periods of "laziness" where my skill level drops and I can tell =[ ). At some point, I can't really tell when, you start seeing games where people play their role. Not to say that at that point you'll stop seeing people picking a 4 carry + 1 support team, but it happens less. Best mode to play to avoid that is CM anyhoo.
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On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen.
I played dota for 3 years. I only discovered TDA after a year and a half but it was the greatest thing ever. Even though "newish" players were present, the rules were REALLY tough. Even saying the word "nigger" would get you banned, even if it wasn't meant "offensively". Teams played as teams, got on vent, trilaned, called missing, called runes, placed wards etc etc it was a WHOLE different game.
DotA 2 will have these features eventually, but at the moment what you are experiencing is what we used to call "APEM" or ezmode agi carry time. I haven't played DotA 2 but if people are the same no matter where, pub trash will always be pub trash and the game will suck balls if that's all you can play.
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United States47024 Posts
Saying that pub DotA isn't enough like competitive DotA is tantamount to saying that losing to cheese at D- level isn't enough like competitive BW.
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If you're concerned with raising your MMR like in HON then you're not focusing on improving, you're just patting yourself on the back when your internet points go up.
If that's all you're worried about then you're not actually trying to improve yourself. You're more concerned with your own appearance and your ego.
DOTA 2 needs neither a leaderboard, nor an MMR.
It does nothing good for LOL or HON and it won't do anything good for DOTA
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If you want the competitive feel, why dont you get a bunch of ur friends together and play, *maybe at a lan or over skype. You mentioned that bad mannered people have a bunch of keys, well shouldnt you also have a bunch of keys to share. Or maybe you just add people you thought were fun to play with to your friend list, and ask to queue with them. (maybe they have more friends who wanna try out pro strategies/lineups. )
Also pub is pub, its random no set rules of what u can do, its just what it says it is; a public game with those u dont know, if you want the competitive feel theres CM and clan wars, you just need a bunch of friends to play with you (which is what dota is all about a team game, and now with friends you hopefully wont have people running around doing random shit)
Its like you're playing 3v3 or 4v4 in sc2, and asking why doesnt my pro inspired build work!!! Well you're playing in the wrong place go to 1v1, and in dota go to CM
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Competitive play drastically different from pub play? I dunno, I thought this was the case in pretty much every competitive multiplayer game in existence, sports included.
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The biggest problem I see with visible MMR as it is in LoL is that people begin to play simply to raise an arbitrary number, and not for the fun of the game itself. It doesn't matter how "good" you are, MMR is just a variable the server uses to ensure that people of similar "skill" get together so the games get more close and exciting.
Yes, but raising the arbitrary number, to use your words, is the fun of the game for many people. People find pleasure in different things. Most reasonably intricate games have an "arbitrary" number or a benign item(s) that technically should not provoke any fun, but are designed to keep people playing for hours just to achieve their benign goals, and that's actually part of the philosophy of game-creation and design. So in theory there isn't anything wrong with revealing that magical number, because it will keep players on the game for awhile, questing for evermore show-off-worthy numbers or items that ultimately are there to give the illusion that your hours spent on the game were not fruitless; and this belongs to the intrinsic design of, I'd say, 95% of games. People play not because the game itself as a whole is fun, but rather for specific achievements that, one way or another, make them feel better about themselves. Beating the boss stage, collecting all secret items, having 2000mmr, getting into the Grandmasters' League, winning 500 times, etc...
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On January 20 2013 08:58 sorrowptoss wrote:Show nested quote +The biggest problem I see with visible MMR as it is in LoL is that people begin to play simply to raise an arbitrary number, and not for the fun of the game itself. It doesn't matter how "good" you are, MMR is just a variable the server uses to ensure that people of similar "skill" get together so the games get more close and exciting. Yes, but raising the arbitrary number, to use your words, is the fun of the game for many people. People find pleasure in different things. Most reasonably intricate games have an "arbitrary" number or a benign item(s) that technically should not provoke any fun, but are designed to keep people playing for hours just to achieve their benign goals, and that's actually part of the philosophy of game-creation and design. So in theory there isn't anything wrong with revealing that magical number, because it will keep players on the game for awhile, questing for evermore show-off-worthy numbers or items that ultimately are there to give the illusion that your hours spent on the game were not fruitless; and this belongs to the intrinsic design of, I'd say, 95% of games. People play not because the game itself as a whole is fun, but rather for specific achievements that, one way or another, make them feel better about themselves. Beating the boss stage, collecting all secret items, having 2000mmr, getting into the Grandmasters' League, winning 500 times, etc...
But then you get the phenomenon of people doing whatever raises their mmr. Win a game or else. Sometimes, just like in sc2, you need to loose games in order to learn to do things.
Also, the essence of DotA is playing different heroes. Why would anyone try a new hero if they are afraid to loose and drop in MMR? That's the reason why it's so stunningly hard to race swap during a league in sc2 because you end up playing people way above your level.
LoL is about kill kill kill action action but DotA is more about think think clever plan. MMR e-peen numbers draw the first type of person.
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I agree with the OP. I wish there was a secondary Matchmaking option for all the people who are NOT interested in playing pub style.
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There is. It's called captain's mode. If you wanna play competitive DOTA, get a team of 5 and play some CM.
There are plenty of resources for people that want a more serious DOTA experience. Just because the game doesn't hold your hand while you do it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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On January 20 2013 05:04 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:46 Sufficiency wrote:
LoL's "magic numbers" are going to be removed, btw. We are not happy about it.
Btw all those complaints exist in LoL and those are not valid complaints at all. No they arent they just create separate divisions.They are completely valid for me. Since this is my opinion and the way i see the game and what i think is missing. it might be different for you. You are entitled to your opinion.
when you say "this is why dota 2 sucks" instead of "this is why i think dota 2 sucks" it looks more like you consider your opinion as fact than opinion
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On January 20 2013 09:58 Demizzle wrote:
There is. It's called captain's mode. If you wanna play competitive DOTA, get a team of 5 and play some CM.
There are plenty of resources for people that want a more serious DOTA experience. Just because the game doesn't hold your hand while you do it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
...Except in CM there are still trolls who join and pick nonsense heroes.Plus, I don't have enough friends to guarantee a skilled 5-man every time I log in, especially seeing as my playtimes are erratic and dependent on when I have free time. I graduated college years ago and don't really have a rigid school/play schedule I can stick to anymore.
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On January 20 2013 08:58 sorrowptoss wrote:Show nested quote +The biggest problem I see with visible MMR as it is in LoL is that people begin to play simply to raise an arbitrary number, and not for the fun of the game itself. It doesn't matter how "good" you are, MMR is just a variable the server uses to ensure that people of similar "skill" get together so the games get more close and exciting. Yes, but raising the arbitrary number, to use your words, is the fun of the game for many people. People find pleasure in different things. Most reasonably intricate games have an "arbitrary" number or a benign item(s) that technically should not provoke any fun, but are designed to keep people playing for hours just to achieve their benign goals, and that's actually part of the philosophy of game-creation and design. So in theory there isn't anything wrong with revealing that magical number, because it will keep players on the game for awhile, questing for evermore show-off-worthy numbers or items that ultimately are there to give the illusion that your hours spent on the game were not fruitless; and this belongs to the intrinsic design of, I'd say, 95% of games. People play not because the game itself as a whole is fun, but rather for specific achievements that, one way or another, make them feel better about themselves. Beating the boss stage, collecting all secret items, having 2000mmr, getting into the Grandmasters' League, winning 500 times, etc...
The problem I see with that is, if you give people stats, some of them are going to feel obligated to optimise them. I know, because I have in the past, and it wasn't about fun for me. Rather it was a chore, getting an arbitrary rating up and and not actually having fun. I now know that (in hindsight), but I fear Dota could become this for many people if MMR is made visible and I do not want the game to take that step.
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I had a very competitive game as CM the other day. I had boots, magic stick, and 1 branch at the end of a 55 minute game. The other team had bounty and nyx so I spent every penny I had on wards, sentries, and dust. Thankfully, my friend was playing AM and was able to carry us to victory.
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On January 20 2013 07:42 Abraxas514 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen. I played dota for 3 years. I only discovered TDA after a year and a half but it was the greatest thing ever. Even though "newish" players were present, the rules were REALLY tough. Even saying the word "nigger" would get you banned, even if it wasn't meant "offensively". Teams played as teams, got on vent, trilaned, called missing, called runes, placed wards etc etc it was a WHOLE different game. DotA 2 will have these features eventually, but at the moment what you are experiencing is what we used to call "APEM" or ezmode agi carry time. I haven't played DotA 2 but if people are the same no matter where, pub trash will always be pub trash and the game will suck balls if that's all you can play.
Man that is not how I remember playing in TDA at all. That's where I played all my games prior to GArena. As far as I recall TDA was basically pub but just had not very many leavers since they got banned but that was about it.
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On January 20 2013 10:38 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:42 Abraxas514 wrote:On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
-Lack of built in help to find a team. How cool would it be if when you find a great great people in a pub game you could just click a "play again" button at the end of the match and easily play with them again.
-Lack of a balanced team mode where you could sign up as for example "support" and get matched with someone that signed up as carry, mid etc.., single draft is a complete joke.
-Pub games are so different from competitive play that it doesn't prepare you for the real thing at all.
-No real punishment for those that constantly ruin the game for others. What do you get for being reported? 2 days of low priority matchmaking where you simply don't get items nor xp?! Things nobody ever cares about.
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen. I played dota for 3 years. I only discovered TDA after a year and a half but it was the greatest thing ever. Even though "newish" players were present, the rules were REALLY tough. Even saying the word "nigger" would get you banned, even if it wasn't meant "offensively". Teams played as teams, got on vent, trilaned, called missing, called runes, placed wards etc etc it was a WHOLE different game. DotA 2 will have these features eventually, but at the moment what you are experiencing is what we used to call "APEM" or ezmode agi carry time. I haven't played DotA 2 but if people are the same no matter where, pub trash will always be pub trash and the game will suck balls if that's all you can play. Man that is not how I remember playing in TDA at all. That's where I played all my games prior to GArena. As far as I recall TDA was basically pub but just had not very many leavers since they got banned but that was about it.
Maybe we played at different times. I played from 2007-2009. Most of my games I hosted and had 2-3 guys in under my listchecker. The other team usually had at least 2-3 guys on a team. We mostly played SD but we played CM once that came out. I stopped playing around the time batrider was released. I started around the time the 6.xx series began.
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I can only speak from experience, and this is from many years back when we were still playing DotA in Garena.
Most players, outside the ones lucky enough to know the competitive players personally, had to play through pub games after pub games, perfecting whatever personal skill they could, while watching replay and have ideas about competitive play in mind. One day (probably) you ll get lucky and manage to show ur skill to a player that matter, and they ll bring you into the competitive scene, where you ll start your climb from the bottom.
I played pub AP DotA for about 2 years before i took part in the first Clan War Room match. But towards the end of my DotA life, i actually got to know iceiceice and furryfish, drafted w papaxiong, alanter n them, and were part of a team that was pretty decent (we never got too far, but it was fun regardless).
Anyway my point is, you probably are demanding gratification earlier than you are expected to get. And quite honestly, if 300 hours were the total amount of time you had spent in DotA, your skill are probably skill lacking anyway. Pubs is a decent place to practice personal skills, even if you don't think that. So if you are interested in competitive DotA, keep the pub games going (it used to be worse in the past, when people leave game quickly if/when they/their team got owned), your skill will hopefully improve, at which point, someone's bound to take notice of you.
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As much as I love playing Dota 2, I have to agree with you on a lot of the points you mentioned.
The thing is, when I'm just pubbing with people I don't know, I tend to not play as seriously.
When I'm playing with friends, then I play somewhat better.
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From my experience, like people already mentioned, Dota is best when you play with at least 2 friends.
I think showing the mmr or any magical number is a double edged sword. It does provide you a sense of progress (very much like the points/rank in BW ICCUP) and help you get some extra motivation other than the fun of the game, but on the flip side, people can get so hung up on maintaining their elo that they get hostile to teammates who aren't performing well and forget to have fun. This was very much the case in throneit for those who remember  Dotacash, not so much as I remember.
No reward system? Feel like you accomplished nothing when you lose a 60-70 min game? I think if you like the game, that won't matter. Yea it's a tough pill to swallow when you lose those long games, but when you win those, oh man...it feels so good.
My biggest problem with Dota 2 is that it's very hard to smurf your friends Like you have to buy another steam account, and get in a similar mmr to your friends and get lucky enough to be matched into the same game as them. In Dota 1, all you had to do is make a new account and join the game your friends hosted and go to the opposite team. THAT was THE SHIT 
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On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
I agree with these. I've played a bit less than 100 hours and I have noticed that the MMR keeps your win/loss rate bit much 50/50. It's really onesided often, of who wins.
I miss the "English only" server. In Dota 2, wherever region (NA and europe) I play, there are always russians speaking only russian. GO PLAY in your Russia region!!
One thing you didn't mention, what I'd like Dota 2 to also have, is the surrender option. It's suffer to play till the end, even though you know you are going to lose anyway.
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On January 20 2013 17:52 Kaiol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Games are incredibly one sided most of the time. Only 20% of the games are actually challenging. Its either your team feeds and its 5-0 for the enemy team by the 7 minute mark and you feel totally hopeless and you can only watch as the world falls apart around you or you completely dominate the enemy which isn't much fun either.
-Lack of an English only server. I cant even communicate with my team most of the time because they don't speak English, yes the game is flooded with Russians that spam the chat in their native language nonstop
I agree with these. I've played a bit less than 100 hours and I have noticed that the MMR keeps your win/loss rate bit much 50/50. It's really onesided often, of who wins. I miss the "English only" server. In Dota 2, wherever region (NA and europe) I play, there are always russians speaking only russian. GO PLAY in your Russia region!! One thing you didn't mention, what I'd like Dota 2 to also have, is the surrender option. It's suffer to play till the end, even though you know you are going to lose anyway.
True i forgot to mention the lack of surrender option. Which is again against Valve's mighty philosophy. There is nothing worse when the game is over and you have to wait 20 mins for the other team to finish.
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Although at points I would like a surrender system, some of the best games come from being down 2-15 or so 20 minutes in, and then edging it out late game with sick team fights.
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Croatia9489 Posts
On January 20 2013 21:45 mizU wrote:
Although at points I would like a surrender system, some of the best games come from being down 2-15 or so 20 minutes in, and then edging it out late game with sick team fights.
I can't agree more with this.
I rage so hard when my team gives up when we're losing 1-10, even though we have superior late game. It's not over until your throne is down. Some of the best games in my life were sick comebacks that would never be possible with a surrender system. I really hope Valve never introduces a surrender button.
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On January 20 2013 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 21:45 mizU wrote:
Although at points I would like a surrender system, some of the best games come from being down 2-15 or so 20 minutes in, and then edging it out late game with sick team fights. I can't agree more with this. I rage so hard when my team gives up when we're losing 1-10, even though we have superior late game. It's not over until your throne is down. Some of the best games in my life were sick comebacks that would never be possible with a surrender system. I really hope Valve never introduces a surrender button.
Yes, i feel the same, but on the other hand those games are a tiny minority compared to the hours wasted in the other 90% of the games where a comeback isnt possible and it is just plain boring to play on for 20 minutes because the enemy team doesnt end it or fountain dives/hooks for 5 minutes while the creeps struggle with t4 towers.
I also have had some games where we came back from an incredible disadvantage, most notably being 2 lanes down against a furion team and then winning anyway, or having throne down to 400hp then winning anyway, but those are 2 games that i can recall right now and i dont think they outweight the time wasted by not being able to surrender.
If your team has given up and is already hiding in the jungle it doesnt matter if there is a surrender button or not, you will not have a comeback.
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On January 20 2013 06:28 AKRW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:08 Kiante wrote:
but what if I want to play SD mid. do i queue as support, pick SD and walk mid? The whole point is that if you queue as support you wouldn't be able to play SD. You would have to queue as mid.
But shadow demon can be both mid and support. So can a lot of heroes.
There are very few heroes that don't fluctuate into multiple roles. Is CK going to be first of second position? Is the mirana going to be safe laning? Mid laning? Off-laning? Roaming? And so on.
This kind of system would be next to impossible to actually design well in dota2.
Nothing is going to prevent people from queueing as a 4th or 5th position and then picking something for first or second position.
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On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
After having played the game for 300 hours (which might not be a lot for everyone but for me personally that's quite a lot) i think i am finally done with the game. Why? Lets be real the game is built towards competitive play but hardly anyone does that. Most players just log on and pub. The game lacks critical features that would allow these players to transition. I know its just beta but i cant see much change towards launch. So you actually have a game that is build towards something nobody actually does and the game doesn't even try introduce these players to the COMPLETELY different competitive play.
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
Well that's it for now. I mostly wrote this for myself so i can just come back and read it whenever i get possessed by evil spirits that force me to play fake dota in hopes of eventually transitioning to the real game which will probably never happen.
If you search your own name and then select a different skill tier ie normal, high, very high you can see where you actually rank.
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On January 20 2013 04:21 AKRW wrote:
The game suffers in multiple areas.
-Hidden MMR thus i cant see any progress. What keeps those millions in LOL engaged? The pursuit of those magical numbers (EDIT: I mean rating+the points you can spend on new heroes and skins). Some accomplishment so you don't feel that you have just wasted your time doing nothing. What incentive is there to play if you don't have a team? Items?
-Horrible reward system. You might not even get anything for a 60 min match.
-Obscure skill rating system. What does that score even mean on your profile page. Saying "This chart shows how well you play a hero relative to those at your skill level" doesn't explain anything. What do i need to do to get a higher rating with a hero? Is my GPM too low? Is it the XPM? Nobody knows.
The point of the playing is for fun, that's it. If you need rewards to keep playing then the game's probably just not for you. It would be nice to see your MMR thought, to get a sense of improvement. And the skill rating was doomed from the start, there's no way to really measure skill with a skill bar that means anything.
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Random russian noob: "mid" -> picks some mid hero
Random russian noob2: "short lane" -> picks some farmer
Deityh: I guess its time for another support long lane shit and trying to not feed there too much.
Thats why dota sucks. You cant choose what you do in game. Other people decide it for you.
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On February 26 2013 06:09 Deityh wrote:
Random russian noob: "mid" -> picks some mid hero
Random russian noob2: "short lane" -> picks some farmer
Deityh: I guess its time for another support long lane shit and trying to not feed there too much.
Thats why dota sucks. You cant choose what you do in game. Other people decide it for you.
Find some friends and work it out with them : ) Then you can do whatever you want.
And if you don't have any I'm sure you could arrange a 5pack on TL where you can choose a role you want.
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I love this game because it doesn't have summoner spells. I hated when I was jungling or something in league of legends and I would catch someone out of position about to obliterate them, to have them woosh away along with my hopes, dreams, and gold D:
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I registered for this forum just to agree with this post. What could have been an amazing game has become horrible. The only way is to completely write-off playing in pubs as idiotic twitch practice and familiarizing yourself with heros, because NOTHING has any bearing in reality when playing tourament or captain's mode.
User was temp banned for this post.
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You have to be delusional to think that you playing in a public game with the average player is going to resemble anything close to what teams of professionals that play the game for a living do against each other. NO ONE compares their work/school/minor city league sports teams with what national and world class teams - why in the world are you doing it with games? Gamers complain so often about how their esports enthusiasm isn't completely socially accepted and looked down but how could you possibly offer that kind of complaint when you're expecting professional level games when you and your other average gaming peers can't possibly even make games like that happen even if you were spoon fed that possibility? Complaining that the game is "horrible" because "idiots" in the pub games that you're a part of can't replicate what you see on streams of the highest levels of play in the world? This is just narcissism, pure and simple. Know your place.
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United States47024 Posts
The OP for this blog hasn't even posted on TL for like 6+ months. How do people find this stuff?
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On September 25 2013 06:04 TheYango wrote:
The OP for this blog hasn't even posted on TL for like 6+ months. How do people find this stuff?
Presumably by searching something along the lines of "Dota 2 sucks"
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EPT
