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Katowice25012 Posts
Recently I stumbled across a documentary about a Tetris competition. I'm a man with an unusually large interest in any kind of video game competition – even stuff like Nick Arcade – so this was right up my alley, and it was captivating. Particularly wonderful was the incredible and obvious passion these people have for their game. These guys go all out, there are scenes where players discuss and critique the style of one another. Styles. In Tetris. A game I had no idea could even display personality.
Then it struck me how strange it was that this was notable in any way. I live and breathe esports. My entire life revolves around TeamLiquid, a place built around people being passionate for a strange and niche competition. Maybe working too close to the heart has affected my perception, but I think StarCraft has lost a lot of this over the past year. Somewhere it became about esports, but not about StarCraft, and that has changed how people interact with the game and the community.
Thrust into the spotlight from the moment it was announced, StarCraft II has gone through an irregular and accelerated growth. The game grew up quickly, subject to tournament upon tournament even before release and finding it's way to MLG, IEM, and DreamHack nearly immediately after selling the first copies.
Not many games have that luxury. They start small and simple, a few events here or there purely because some guy wants to show his friends he is the best. Their roots are in living rooms, basements, and LAN centers. They spend time learning who they are, and those playing learn to bond on a level that only teenage obsession and love can form. Not many games have the curse of higher dreams.
StarCraft II hasn't had that beautiful adolescence. The time when gamers obsess about the game not because of what they see on stage, but because of what they see in front of them. What they experience on the battlefield itself, the magnificent combination of planning and execution that make up a game. We need to make ESPORTS happen was the rally cry of 2010, and set the tone for the community since. Topics about the players, their style, and unique strategies are lost among a sea of discussion regarding the state of the industry and daily gossip.
SC2 is an amazing game. It offers competitive depth and allows for a variety of playstyles completely unmatched in any game (at least anything not named Brood War). Yet it's rare that we celebrate it, instead choosing to spend hundreds of pages arguing over the crazy things Jessica does. We're in a community where the conversation is not about what brought us together, but rather about the entire system. The focus is on everything outside the game, it's a kind of bizarre meta ritual where the thing holding us together is the need to discuss the group.
When I started getting heavily into Dota the most striking aspect was how fanatical everyone is about the game itself. Dota has a longstanding tradition of professionals retiring and then coming back because they can't move on with their lives. It's not even noteworthy when Artstyle quits or forms a new team because he's done both too many times to count. The same was true for the Brood War scene on TL back in “the day”. People would try but they could never really leave.
The entire RTS genre is truly incredible. The variety in the types of actions a player can perform, the range of motion he has in ability to express himself through the game, far surpasses any other kind of title (even among other highly competitive games). It's an extraordinary, wondrous thing seeing Sting craft a non-standard TvP or JyJ try some funky proxy reaper-into-Thor build. If esports were a painting, StarCraft would be the largest canvas with the brightest colors sitting next to it, just waiting to be turned into a masterpiece of gigantic proportions.
I don't know that there is a specific purpose to this but it's been something I've been wanting to get off my chest. StarCraft is an awesome pastime, and it's frustrating and annoying to see that whining about irrelevant things is the hip way to be. I'm happy that there are now other big titles to take the focus off SC2 all the time, because our community needs some time for self reflection and actualization. We need time as something besides the esports title and all the pressures that come with showing the world what gaming competitions are. We don't need more people who like SC2 because it's the big thing, we need people who enjoy it for what it is and stay because they share an interest and will grow that passion.
Esports is a magical and amazing thing. We're taking the most whimsical of pastimes and seeing what happens when you introduce an arena to the equation. Why did it become about anything more? Play for the love. Develop the passion. Cherish the game, inside and out.
 
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Your post reminds me of two entries I had written about. Both the drama and the lack of "personality" within builds and strategies of players.
I attributed the lack of personality with builds due to the overabundance of tournaments. If you have to play in the open-brackets of three tournaments within a month (let's say IEM, IPL & MLG), then you are better off practicing your mechanics and endurance to play rather than creating new builds and styles.
In addition, tournaments mean more opponents and less specialty in plays. The emphasis on good macromanagement in-game, mentality and overall strategy becomes more demanded than training or preparing specifically for an opponent and their strategy (a la GSL or NASL). Endurance starts playing a larger value than one’s ability to really assess their opponent as well as out-think them. These tournaments potentially slow down strategy and competitive innovation for refining in mechanics and overall ability to play the game.
- Branching problem 2: With an influx of major tournaments, a player’s time is divided to preparing for all kinds of opponents as well as specific opponents in leagues. Preparation diminishes, strategy becomes stale and repetitive to what works most of the time.
It's about which net of builds will get you the farthest. The appeal to the GSL is the assumption that it is the highest-level of play, both on a player's mechanics as well as each match, presumably, being the summation of two players' preparation to understand one another and their strengths/weaknesses.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384505
As for the emphasis and drama. More of the scene than the game, I think it's because the community is bored: both with the above issue as well as the fact that there is no proper story-telling or redefining of the players and their uniqueness.
Drama is the side-effect of an untold scene. My viewpoint on drama is that it is a byproduct of a bored environment. A boring scene is a culture without meaning in its crowning events or overall performance in entertainment. In my opinion, drama, rivalries, hype, nicknames and announcements are shapes and offshoots of story-telling for E-Sports. Why is story-telling so important?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387328
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People should try doing what they like instead of trying to like what they think they should do. Perhaps then they would care less about things not being how they would like them to be and perhaps even care less about what other people liked.
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One big thing is the phenomenon of people watching SC2 but not playing it/playing very little. I think a lot of those people focus on drama rather than gameplay
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I blame some degree of my obsession with gaming on spending far too many mornings watching Nick Arcade as a kid. Actraiser, Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Paperboy, they played some baller games, and the final challenge where the contestants got to play inside a game blew my mind.
I think Sir Scoots really spoke to this concept really well, in that he advocated that we channel our passion towards the positive and not the negative; if you don't like a game or a race or an aspect of balance, than cheer all the louder when a Terran masterfully dodges a fungal or your favorite game ends up with an exciting final match at a local tournament. Constructive criticism can be useful, but I think a lot of people underestimate how constructive support can be.
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On January 12 2013 07:35 farvacola wrote:
I blame some degree of my obsession with gaming on spending far too many mornings watching Nick Arcade as a kid. Actraiser, Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Paperboy, they played some baller games, and the final challenge where the contestants got to play inside a game blew my mind.
I think Sir Scoots really spoke to this concept really well, in that he advocated that we channel our passion towards the positive and not the negative; if you don't like a game or a race or an aspect of balance, than cheer all the louder when a Terran masterfully dodges a fungal or your favorite game ends up with an exciting final match at a local tournament. Constructive criticism can be useful, but I think a lot of people underestimate how constructive support can be.
The issue is is that its almost human nature to be more quiet about areas you're satisfied with, since there is nothing advocate to change in that area.
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Well thought out, with extremely relevant points. All aboard the dota train if something doesn't change.
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To an extent, it may be just perspective. When you say "the community" I assume you mean the loud opinions on TeamLiquid and Reddit. If you dig around for some smaller communities or some non-conventional avenues, you'll find that the love for the actual game is still alive and well - it's just that these people's voices aren't as vibrant in the TL and Reddit space that a lot of esports enthusiasts frequent. Furthermore, I think if you make a conscious effort to focus on playing the game in a variety of ways (1v1, monobattles, UMS with friends), you'll find that its still a very enriching experience.
Another pespective to consider is your own as an outsider to the Tetris community. Being really involved in one community, I think the politics and drama become more visible for someone like yourself. Looking at other competitive scenes you are not as involved in, I think the most visible stuff is the awesome gameplay - but like anything in life it all has politics underneath.
StarCraft 2 and the esports community surrounding it thrives on user participation in a variety of forms. You can play the game, you can post on forums, you can make videos etc. There are many ways to participate in the game and community, and become a part of it and feel good that you're having an impact. The GROW ESPORTS mantra may be a way to participate that gives the highest sense of satisfaction with minimal effort - the 'industry' is still very young and malleable and everyone has an opinion that is not neccesarily right or wrong.
Everyone's thoughts is somewhat validated in the fact that they are players and consumers in the space, and can have an impact on the growth of esports.
I think the culture of StarCraft itself bleeds into community attitude. The game promotes a very merit based way of thinking - the most "right" or "skilled" player will win in almost every case. I think for most hardcore starcraft esports fans, the belief is the scene should develop in a similar way where there is little tolerance for mistakes and mishaps - when in reality growing something as new as esports is anything but easy.
I'm sort of in the same train of thought where it's sadly surprising to see people really enthusiastic about the game itself rather than the meta-esports around it. It's my personal goal this year to engage with those people more often rather than the meta-esports stuff.
I hate saying "the community should...", but in some way I feel there should be more highlights in the positive expressions of enjoyment for the game itself on TL and Reddit. I guess in the case of TL, it's a matter of how you will moderate and curate content and what your own internal policies are (as some news is drama etc). Reddit StarCraft on the other hand is at the hands of the community, and in larger numbers the negative still gets more attention. The mods in that forum may impose policy for some more positive content but they do little to interfere.
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Brazil1429 Posts
I relate a lot with this post. Makes me think of soccer here on Brazil: soccer is no longer a place for spontaneous manifestation of love and passion for the game; because of the world cup, soccer has became just the new fashion.
And what's really vile about this process is that tickets are now so expensive that it's really hard for the fans to go to the arenas and watch the game. It became a hobby for rich people that usually don't give a shit about the game.
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I think this is why it's so nice to get articulate pro players in as analysts or co-casters for big matches. Getting to hear how they think about the game, the details they hone in on, the strategic analysis is fascinating. The passion and depth of knowledge on display can be inspiring. When all the elements of good play come together, solid planning, solid execution, skillful reactions to the opponent's play both strategic and mechanical, the game is amazing. If you're skillful enough to play at the highest level you can enjoy it from inside the game, but for those who are lacking some elements of GM+ play, it is rewarding to be brought along for the ride by someone who can explain what's really going on.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
I totally agree. I try to get closer to SC2, but it just seems so... cold and unreciprocated. SC2 is like a clinical display of eSports. All the technicalities but misses a lot of personal touch. So many arguments seem to be for the sake of having an argument or for some misappropriated ideal.
In its rise to the top, I think SC2 has forgotten that at the end of the day, it's a game to play and have fun with. I think taking a step back, taking a deep breath and remembering it's ok to be happy and have fun and it doesn't have to be serious all the time. It's not about everyone else. It's about us. It's about the game. And it's about having fun.
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On January 12 2013 07:43 WhatIsHip wrote:
Well thought out, with extremely relevant points. All aboard the dota train if something doesn't change.
I may be misundertanding him, or even you, but I don't think that was his point.
You shouldn't move on to Dota because they are telling you it will be the new big things, it's great and will change ESPORTS forever. It's not about Dota being better or worse than SC2, Dota was lucky enough not to have been forced to grow. People played Dota because they liked it, loved it even, and it grew into what we have now.
If you actually like SC2, you should follow it and form a community that deeply cares about it. If you like Dota you should follow it because you care about it. If you like LoL you should follow it because you care about it and if you like Tetris you should follow it because you care about it.
Artificially increasing Dota's popularity because we think it should be the better game/ESPORT/whathever would result in the same issues SC2 is having. You should give every game the opportunity it deserves, and you should play/follow what you love, not what people say will be cool. What needs to change is people requiring the game to change so that they are able to like it. That doesn't mean a game can't improve, but I just feel some people expect unreasonable changes for it to fit their tastes.
Play SC2 because you like playing SC2. There will always be a community, and it may be even better with less, but more passionate people. Even Age of Empires 2 is still going, it just got a new fan made expansion I believe.
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The entire RTS genre is truly incredible. The variety in the types of actions a player can perform, the range of motion he has in ability to express himself through the game, far surpasses any other kind of title (even among other highly competitive games). It's an extraordinary, wondrous thing seeing Sting craft a non-standard TvP or JyJ try some funky proxy reaper-into-Thor build. If esports were a painting, StarCraft would be the largest canvas with the brightest colors sitting next to it, just waiting to be turned into a masterpiece of gigantic proportions.
I don't know that there is a specific purpose to this but it's been something I've been wanting to get off my chest. StarCraft is an awesome pastime, and it's frustrating and annoying to see that whining about irrelevant things is the hip way to be. I'm happy that there are now other big titles to take the focus off SC2 all the time, because our community needs some time for self reflection and actualization. We need time as something besides the esports title and all the pressures that come with showing the world what gaming competitions are. We don't need more people who like SC2 because it's the big thing, we need people who enjoy it for what it is and stay because they share an interest and will grow that passion.
Well. fucking. said. Absolutely agree with the whole blog post.
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I couldn't agree with you more. Right now the Starcraft 2 scene is all about people trying to inject more ESPORTS into the current ESPORTS so there isn't a shortage of ESPORTS. I wasn't around for much of BW, but you could tell that everyone who played it, wanted it to grow and be more successful, did it because they loved it, not some ill contrived notion of helping ESPORTS despite a lack of passion for the game.
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5/5
i've been trying to take time off from watching a lot of events ever since i started feeling the burn of oversaturation from the latter half of 2012 and trying to rekindle my actual love of just playing the game, including the custom maps, which for me (and i'm sure a lot of people) was a big aspect even back in the SC1/BW days.
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Grubby said in a recent interview that in WC3 he had a folder of replays for everyone who could be a threat to him (around 20 players). In 2010 when he started SC2 he did the same. He gave up this goal rapidly. There was too many players.
SC2 tournaments lack personality. SC2 tournaments are saturated with a combination of faceless Koreans, one or two brilliant Koreans, a conveyor belt of average foreigners and a smattering of Stephano. There are no hype videos. There is no divergence in play, the same builds executed in the same way.
The community needs to rediscover the passion to make videos, to hype up a tournament and to discuss the game beyond balance.
The community needs stories. MKP getting silver. MVP fighting through wrist injuries. Huk the foreign hope in MLG.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:31 SKC wrote:
People should try doing what they like instead of trying to like what they think they should do. Perhaps then they would care less about things not being how they would like them to be and perhaps even care less about what other people liked.
It's particularly true when referring to gaming competitions, because there is no real compensation aside from feeling good for participating. No one gets rich, we all just make some neat things and go home so it's silly to be motivated by anything aside from pure enjoyment of what you're doing.
On January 12 2013 07:39 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 07:35 farvacola wrote:
I blame some degree of my obsession with gaming on spending far too many mornings watching Nick Arcade as a kid. Actraiser, Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Paperboy, they played some baller games, and the final challenge where the contestants got to play inside a game blew my mind.
I think Sir Scoots really spoke to this concept really well, in that he advocated that we channel our passion towards the positive and not the negative; if you don't like a game or a race or an aspect of balance, than cheer all the louder when a Terran masterfully dodges a fungal or your favorite game ends up with an exciting final match at a local tournament. Constructive criticism can be useful, but I think a lot of people underestimate how constructive support can be. The issue is is that its almost human nature to be more quiet about areas you're satisfied with, since there is nothing advocate to change in that area.
May be human nature but it doesn't make it any less wrong. Look at Day[9], guy built a career just talking about things that are cool in a super positive way and he's far and away the most successful at what it is he does. Probably not a coincidence.
On January 12 2013 07:50 shindigs wrote:
To an extent, it may be just perspective. When you say "the community" I assume you mean the loud opinions on TeamLiquid and Reddit. If you dig around for some smaller communities or some non-conventional avenues, you'll find that the love for the actual game is still alive and well - it's just that these people's voices aren't as vibrant in the TL and Reddit space that a lot of esports enthusiasts frequent. Furthermore, I think if you make a conscious effort to focus on playing the game in a variety of ways (1v1, monobattles, UMS with friends), you'll find that its still a very enriching experience.
This is a good point and why the perspective caveat is in there. I've had almost nothing but positive experiences with people at live events of all sizes (from MLGs to tiny college inhouse LANs) and what makes them great is that the people tend to be there just because they find it fun to do stuff with the game - essentially what I'm ranting about.
On January 12 2013 07:50 shindigs wrote:
I'm sort of in the same train of thought where it's sadly surprising to see people really enthusiastic about the game itself rather than the meta-esports around it. It's my personal goal this year to engage with those people more often rather than the meta-esports stuff.
I hate saying "the community should...", but in some way I feel there should be more highlights in the positive expressions of enjoyment for the game itself on TL and Reddit. I guess in the case of TL, it's a matter of how you will moderate and curate content and what your own internal policies are (as some news is drama etc). Reddit StarCraft on the other hand is at the hands of the community, and in larger numbers the negative still gets more attention. The mods in that forum may impose policy for some more positive content but they do little to interfere.
I feel pretty strongly we can do a better job being more positive in general, but I also feel that way about basically every aspect of life and for everyone. One of the things I really like about talking to the TL writers (Wax and Monk specifically) is that they love finding out the little subtle things about each player's build and what makes it unique. It seems the small intricacies of each player's style often goes unnoticed and that's really the most wonderful thing about SC2 in general.
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Loud minority, silent majority.
I still love SC2 <3
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Canada5155 Posts
I know it's a little strange to spotlight a staff member's thread, but this is great and I think it's deserving.
5/5
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Agree with OP and Torte de Lini.
It feels that the esports aspect of SC2 was inherited from the previous communities. Everyone put their expertise together to make SC2 an excellent esports but what went missing is the passion for the game. Our players are too old and professional, our casts streamlined and our discussions over. We have so much more good stuff (streams, viewers, oppurtunities, prize money) in SC2 but we appreciate it less. It feels hard to do and move something in SC2, which often includes having more money.
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results
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I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies.
Personally I always latched onto players who had really really specific playstyles. Like Select who always had the cheek to 2rax or cheese just to keep his opponents honest. He had a crazy personality off camera too but it felt like it showed in his gameplay just the same. Just like how Thorzain's patient and thorough play reflects him off camera. I had the chance to meet him in person and he's pretty reserved, just like his playstyle.
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I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case?
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reading the paragraph about SC2 having no "beautiful adolescence" instantly the face of young Macaulay Culkin came into my head. Starcrafts "2010" was Culkins "Kevin alone at home". Very young and without any time to make mistakes in privacy. Let`s hope the game has a better future than Culkins career after his first movies.
BUT if not, it`s only a little sad. Because other games are fun too. ^_____^
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TLADT24920 Posts
I feel that the market is currently too saturated with tournaments in SCII unlike in BW where it was limited to OSL, MSL and PL with WCG. In turn, this means that players don't have time to develop their own styles since they are busy flying from one place to another and trying to work on mechanics since those can carry you far. This is the same reason why LiquidHerO was and is still considered an amazing player. Back when he first transferred to TL, everyone was raving about his multitasking as a protoss player because it was new, fresh, exciting to watch and I guess his signature seeing as how he was compared to Bisu.
It feels like this community does complain a lot. I spend a lot of time on TL and most of the threads that pop up aside from interviews or team/player changes are balance whines or dramas. Take into account SlayerS disbanding and the drama regarding MMA, Ryung, Jessica and CranK or the Ministry of Win threads that popped up about their mismanagement and problem regarding their services etc... Likewise, consider all the threads that revolve around discussing terran domination at game release or the threads that revolve around Zerg and the infestor. While I do think that some things need change, the amount of people complaining is too ridiculous and those who are passionate about the game will accept the imbalance and find ways to work around them while Blizzard works on patching them if need be. There is no need to write 50 posts on why you think the infestor is imba etc...
I've been playing a lot of BW lately. I've lost games to some truly OP stuff lol. Things like my opponent dropping a reaver in my base and taking out my workers before I could respond or in another case dropping lurkers into my main and my only form of detection is gone. Even in BW, I lost a TvP because I took too much time to take out my opponent and he went carriers so my ground army which had 7 goliaths was wiped clean >< Yes, I got pissed because I felt like I had it but I accepted the loss because it was my fault that I didn't scan his base to see why he only attacked me several times. My point is that, the complaining is causing the nerf bat to be swung too many times and people keep blaming the game instead of just accepting the loss and working harder. In BW, even though reavers, hts, lurkers, defilers, tanks, etc...were OP, no one complained and everyone just tried harder.
Anyways, getting way off topic but I totally agree with what you wrote. The scene sprung overnight based around BW's success. SCII matured way too fast and I think we've hit a climax at this point. Eventually, once the last expansion is released and Blizzard is done patching for good, those who are passionate about the game will remain and forgo a more tight knit community 
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Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 12 2013 09:32 SinCitta wrote:
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results
The artist analogy feels really natural to me, the texture each individual game has is unique and interesting and it's unbelievably sweet to watch that play out before your eyes in a competitive environment.
On January 12 2013 09:42 CPTBadAss wrote:
I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies.
I'm a huge junkie for these movies, I've seen King of Kong dozens of times because it's a wonderful story with just the right amount of craziness. I used to make the girls I dated watch it with me to show them what it was I was most passionate about. Word Wars is amazing too (as is the book), those dudes are hilarious and they're all hugely into their own bizarre thing with no worry about what anyone else thinks of it. I even love that really minimal documentary about the guy trying to beat the a Missile Command score. I actually found one I haven't seen (in reading a book about esports) and am excited to sit down and give it a look this weekend.
On January 12 2013 10:29 tshi wrote:
I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case?
I don't think it's the money but maybe the illusion of money. There is definitely a certain portion of people who try to get involved and be good or notable purely because they think the fame or money matter, and when they inevitably start to struggle or realize that their goals don't line up with reality it can cause problems.
On January 12 2013 10:58 RoninShogun wrote:
Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog
For the record Flamewheel is probably better than anyone in that documentary but it centers around NES Tetris specifically so it's hard to say, the game is different enough that a lot of the crazy moves he can pull off just aren't possible in it.
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I was introduced to this game by a friend, who had and has no love for "esports". However, the more I got into this game, the more he didn't and he hasn't played in almost a year. Here I am, a daily visitor of Team Liquid, a regular watcher of Day9 and a guy who ladders as often as possible. I just like Starcraft. Maybe we do get caught up in the other things a little too often. It's a great game, just go out and play it. Revel in it. Love it. But most of all, play it.
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Great post.
It's quite a simple and easy point to grasp, and you're getting it across very well. But at the same time I feel it's just something that can't be resolved even through knowing the problem. In SC2 "it" might or might not come with time. By "it", I mean that feeling I first got when I got into BW. This sounds very subjective and specific to me, but I'm certain some of you know exactly what I mean. The spark. When you know 'this is my game, and this is my community'.
I wasn't looking for a game like BW. I had never been into RTS before - I was an FPS gamer. I stumbled upon BW by complete accident.
As a BW fan both now and then, you do necessarily possess the qualities you're talking about. You're in it purely for the love of the game. The pre-SC2 teamliquid really reflected that.
However, something struck me while reading the OP. Do you remember back then? While we really did have enough in our selves, we, as a community backing our game, constantly strived for something bigger. Like in South Korea, but global! We want everybody else to appreciate how cool OUR game is, how difficult OUR game is. We strived for ESPORTS and recognition. It seems to me, that real dedication comes from an unreachable goal. A part of the Elliott Smith song “Can't make a sound” comes to my mind here: “Why should you want any other, when you're a world within a world?”. While we had a common dream, we were really best off with things not changing. That dream didn't really come true with SC2 anyway. It's still a niche, though bigger. But to me, basically a downgrade, because personally I hoped for something better. I was not able to reinvent my initial appreciation for a game.
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On January 12 2013 11:12 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 09:32 SinCitta wrote:
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results The artist analogy feels really natural to me, the texture each individual game has is unique and interesting and it's unbelievably sweet to watch that play out before your eyes in a competitive environment. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 09:42 CPTBadAss wrote:
I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies. I'm a huge junkie for these movies, I've seen King of Kong dozens of times because it's a wonderful story with just the right amount of craziness. I used to make the girls I dated watch it with me to show them what it was I was most passionate about. Word Wars is amazing too (as is the book), those dudes are hilarious and they're all hugely into their own bizarre thing with no worry about what anyone else thinks of it. I even love that really minimal documentary about the guy trying to beat the a Missile Command score. I actually found one I haven't seen (in reading a book about esports) and am excited to sit down and give it a look this weekend. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:29 tshi wrote:
I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case? I don't think it's the money but maybe the illusion of money. There is definitely a certain portion of people who try to get involved and be good or notable purely because they think the fame or money matter, and when they inevitably start to struggle or realize that their goals don't line up with reality it can cause problems. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:58 RoninShogun wrote:
Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog For the record Flamewheel is probably better than anyone in that documentary but it centers around NES Tetris specifically so it's hard to say, the game is different enough that a lot of the crazy moves he can pull off just aren't possible in it.
You read the book too?? That's awesome. And I agree...they're such characters.
Can you tell me the name of the names of the Tetris and Missile Command movies and the books you've read? I'd love to read/watch them as well.
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"Play for the love. Develop the passion. Cherish the game, inside and out."
I really love this line.
And, I also like how you are happy that other games are garnering some of the spotlight. This is such a good point, and it takes the emphasis off of competing with other games.
I don't even understand the mentality that it is a zero sum game, if LoL gets bigger, our game is smaller by comparison. This simply isn't true. Even if the player base does drop somewhat, the game is equally as beautiful.
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My issue is this: there's nothing else.
There is NO RTS game that can compete with SCII in the current market (except BW). And somewhere down the line, you've got to stop using a 14 year old game as an example in the MODERN DAY gaming market. It is only a TESTAMENT to BW's quality that it is still a shining example of what an RTS game should be even while its successor is trying (and failing) to choke it out.
There needs to be competition. But no one is stepping up to the plate.
My love is for this genre. I portion only a bit out to this game. The rest is for the players, who work very hard at improving every day. Meanwhile, the developers do a shit job of making this game the PREMIERE competitive game (something that they proclaimed was one of their design goals so long ago).
These players deserve so much more than what they have. Most of them sacrifice EVERYTHING to play this game competitively. They are artists...and their canvas is shabby, warped and ragged.
Why do you think the deep, profound passion for the game is lacking. Why does it feel forced? Why is it so hard to find? Because this game is so much less than it could be. You can sidestep that fact all you want. It's something that was very, very painful for me to realize (especially since I spent so much of my life in this genre). Why the fuck do you think there are so many complaint threads that have popped up in the past few months? The community hasn't just gone to shit. We're all very passionate people with a love for the complexity of the competitive RTS game. And while some are satisfied with less, those who are complaining openly want this game to be so much more than it could be. Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there right now (with a thriving, vibrant population of players) that can compare with SCII.
And that is ONLY because there is NOTHING out there! This genre is a desolate wasteland. And I'm not talking about RTS games in general. I am talking about the competitive RTS genre that was forged by the weight of just one game, whose successor fails to deliver the canvas we have waited to behold for so goddamned long.
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On January 12 2013 09:25 HawaiianPig wrote:
I know it's a little strange to spotlight a staff member's thread, but this is great and I think it's deserving.
5/5
nah it's good to do that. the reason they're staff in the first place is because they're really smart so feature away as long as it's deserved!
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I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said in your blogpost. Especially the point about the capacity of a player to express himself through the RTS medium. I definitely felt this way about Brood War, particularly with Savior, iloveoov, Nal_ra, and Bisu, where you could just "feel" and intuitively know that particular progamer is playing just by the subtle nuances you sense while viewing the match. It could be something as simple as the way he engages a small battle, place his structures or the timing of his expansions.
I'll just use savior as an example because he was the reason I went from a casual e-sports viewer to a TL.net refreshing fanatic. I think savior's builds exemplified this expressive quality the most. During his prime, I always got chills watching how ballsy he was with his "greedy" mass-expo builds in zvp. It was just amazing to see how little he invested in secure, static defenses, which any safe zerg player would've done. He never seemed paranoid that he would be punished by his greed. He just confidently went on taking the map as if it all rightfully his. And how he engaged battles with just the right number of units, never over-extending himself or just barely getting by. He always seemed to decisively win battles seamlessly with near-perfect unit placement and cool confidence as if he expected the battle to happen and he knew he would win. The point I'm trying to get at is that zergs emulated that sort of zvp playstyle but no one really executed it with savior's success or boldness at the time. Commentators would point at concrete things like inferior mechanics or shitty timing but it also just didn't "feel" like savior's play for indescribable reasons. I think it's that elusive x-factor that makes brood war such a deep game, where players seem to express themselves through the game beyond the simple mechanics that are programmed into it.
Unfortunately, I don't feel SC2 has reached this level of depth yet. I don't think that's necessarily a reflection of the game itself but like you mentioned in your post, the rapid growth of the e-sports scene. The oversaturation of leagues puts a lot of pressure on players to have a results-oriented mindset, which may cause them to go for more conservative builds. Who knows, maybe that'll change in a few years and hopefully this is just a phase.
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Starcraft 2 has lost pretty much all its appeal for me. I remember just a year ago when I was attending Barcrafts, paying for GSL tickets and getting excited about the game. But then I started playing Dota 2 and it just completely took over. For some reason I just find it far more fun and exciting for me and as much as I want to get into Starcraft 2, just none of it held any appeal to me anymore. Like at this point, I don't think i'd even get HOTS because I feel zero excitement for it.
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Thanks for sharing. The buzz for eSports really does get tiresome when it sacrifices our enjoyment. Great reminder that we're here to have fun ^^
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From what I've seen most of the "ESPORTS hype" has been forced upon the community from day 1 from the organizations that would most benefit from more money being pumped into competitive gaming. When Clutch yells "THIS IS ESPORTS", a lot of people might hold the misapprehension that he's expressing genuine passion towards games like SC2 or LoL-- but in reality it has everything to do with marketing the tournament and its sponsors. Like you mentioned in your OP, SC2 was taken on the road from day 1 before anyone knew how good (or stale) it would become. Teams and leagues were at each other's throats for attention and SC2 was thrust in the forefront because of it's unique position in the gaming community. I guess over time the games that a lot of people really enjoy will be the ones to draw the most attention (as you already see happening with the LoL/Dota scenes). Other games with smaller, cult-followings already have their niche but we don't really see them at the big tournaments. While I don't actively follow the other big ESport scenes the impressions that I get (and that you alluded to) are that they are not so prone to blindly "promoting ESPORTS" which is nice to hear. One can hope that with HOTS and eventually LOTV coming out that our SC2 scene has been brought down to Earth and we can once again get back to playing and watching something that we actually enjoy. But ultimately that all depends on how much of an improvement they are, because the premise that people will keep watching tournaments because "if you support ESPORTS it will eventually get SO GOOD!" is not going to work when so many grow jaded.
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the best part of this blog is how torte plugs his own threads in the first post.....lol
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Esports is great but we must never forget the reason why we're doing this. Unless you are doing because you love the game, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. While I think most people do love the game, I've been disappointed to see that love being drowned ion the sea of drama and negativity that seems to dominate a lot of discussion right now.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:33 Qbek wrote:
One big thing is the phenomenon of people watching SC2 but not playing it/playing very little. I think a lot of those people focus on drama rather than gameplay
It's not a phenomenon anymore, since BW had the exact same thing. WC3 had it as well at one point.
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I am into Dota because I really love the game. I love both watching and playing it, and I really don't care about the "omg ESPORTS!!11" movement because to be honest it sounds stupid and also pointless. What I really love about Dota is this, there's almost 0 of this ESPORTS stuff and people are there because they love playing the game. There's no drama threads popping up anywhere, it's just the game and the people's love about it. The players have not become the boring professionals of SC2 yet (and hopefully never) which means they have that amateur feel that I really love watching. This is one of the reasons that turned me off from the SC2 scene. The first year was allright but after that it was all about sponsors, advertisement and other things, not just the game and the player.
On January 12 2013 13:39 Erik.TheRed wrote:
From what I've seen most of the "ESPORTS hype" has been forced upon the community from day 1 from the organizations that would most benefit from more money being pumped into competitive gaming. .
Well said, this is exactly what I was trying to say.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 12 2013 12:10 CPTBadAss wrote:
You read the book too?? That's awesome. And I agree...they're such characters.
Can you tell me the name of the names of the Tetris and Missile Command movies and the books you've read? I'd love to read/watch them as well.
The Tetris doc is Ecstasy of Order (I watched it on Hulu, maybe you can too since you're in America) and the Missile Command movie is called High Score. I also enjoy Chasing Ghosts (follows the same people as King of Kong but more broad info), Beyond The Game (WCG thing on Grubby and Sky in WC3), Frag (about FPS games and CPL - this one is particularly hilarious as it has a lot of now current SC2 commentators in their earlier days), the StarCraft WCG 2005 National Geographic piece (follows Xellos in a WCG run - done by Storyteller, a member of TL), and I Got Next (about fighting games). I even have a copy of MTV True Life - I'm a Gamer on an old hard drive which is amusing enough to watch every so often but it's largely about guys who don't compete. There is a Mike Ross documentary too that is good but I don't remember the name of.
The books I've read off the top of my head are Master of Doom, Dungeons and Dreamers, and I'm currently reading Raising the Stakes. The first two are only tangentially related to competitions but have large sections describing early the early FPS scene but the latter is specifically esports driven. It's good so far but I'm only a few pages in.
On January 12 2013 12:54 Qwyn wrote:
My issue is this: there's nothing else.
There is NO RTS game that can compete with SCII in the current market (except BW). And somewhere down the line, you've got to stop using a 14 year old game as an example in the MODERN DAY gaming market. It is only a TESTAMENT to BW's quality that it is still a shining example of what an RTS game should be even while its successor is trying (and failing) to choke it out.
There needs to be competition. But no one is stepping up to the plate.
My love is for this genre. I portion only a bit out to this game. The rest is for the players, who work very hard at improving every day. Meanwhile, the developers do a shit job of making this game the PREMIERE competitive game (something that they proclaimed was one of their design goals so long ago).
These players deserve so much more than what they have. Most of them sacrifice EVERYTHING to play this game competitively. They are artists...and their canvas is shabby, warped and ragged.
Why do you think the deep, profound passion for the game is lacking. Why does it feel forced? Why is it so hard to find? Because this game is so much less than it could be. You can sidestep that fact all you want. It's something that was very, very painful for me to realize (especially since I spent so much of my life in this genre). Why the fuck do you think there are so many complaint threads that have popped up in the past few months? The community hasn't just gone to shit. We're all very passionate people with a love for the complexity of the competitive RTS game. And while some are satisfied with less, those who are complaining openly want this game to be so much more than it could be. Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there right now (with a thriving, vibrant population of players) that can compare with SCII.
And that is ONLY because there is NOTHING out there! This genre is a desolate wasteland. And I'm not talking about RTS games in general. I am talking about the competitive RTS genre that was forged by the weight of just one game, whose successor fails to deliver the canvas we have waited to behold for so goddamned long.
I've wrestled with this for a while and ultimately while I agree it's weird that there is no real competition in the genre, I still think SC2 is a great game. There are enough people out there who really love it for the weird intricacies that exist within the game to make me a believer that it has many of the qualities we attribute to the greatest of competitive events.
On January 12 2013 13:44 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I disagree
The juxtaposition between your post and signature is awesome. Well done.
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I think there should be something said about the casual expierence. Like maybe I am presuming too much but your point seems to be that the game should be the focus instead of the idea of the game, and I like that. Personally that's why I watch sc2 being a gm top 8 masters player. But you know its just the kind of thing that happens with popularity you know. For example, American Football, watched by 60 million people on the superbowl. Nobody understands football. I've played it. It's one of the most strategically complicated games ever to be created. You know, most people don't appreciate football, because of the game. They appreciate because of the idea of the game. I don't know, you have a point, but I think that there's room for both ideas, and we shouldn't put one on a pedestal or think of one as the footstool.
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Amazing read. True words
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Gread read and I do really agree.
For me right now im really looking forward to the next big tournament I can get excited for and I haven't been like this for quite a while not since WCS EU finals and the WCS UK championships. In fact thinking about It those are the only 2 tournaments I have been really excited for in the whole of 2012 and thats a bit sad really. Their were moments that I had a massive amount of enjoyment just watching SC2 but for the most part I was just tiered with it all. Every weekend their was a different tournament and something else to watch and that sounds good but after a while I was exhausted with it all and needed a break from it and thats why those two tournament really stood out for me as their was a decent break between the previous tournament and those ones starting so I was refreshed going in and could really look forward to them as they had a build up and had stories going in and throughout the weekend (well maybe WCS EU did not so much the UK finals but being a brit that tournament was for my hometown players so it was special). Im also really enjoying Pro league aswel now as they can tell a story as well as anyone but they let you enjoy the game for what it is in bite size pieces so not every weekend is eaten up by it, add in the new maps bringing out new styles and stratergies is just making it near perfect for me and has kept me going over winter nicely.
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Thank you for this. I'm relative newcomer to TL and StarCraft (I've only been playing since 2011) but I already can't imagine myself playing other game maybe DotA wich I actually played before
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We need to make ESPORTS happen was the rally cry of 2010, and set the tone for the community since.
After pretty much quitting with SC2 sometime during the first 1-2 seasons this was and still is one of the main issues that's keeping me away from the community. People keep talking about this artificial E-Sports construct, about how you can make it grow and the whole infamous "blabla is destroying ESPORTS"-meme is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that craze.
A big part about what annoys me in some of the more recent popular games (biggest offenders to me personally are SC2 and League) are artificial design choices which seem to leak into the communities attitudes. It starts with "We don't want highground advantage in our game because random things are bad" and ends with "You have to do this or that if you're a fan of this game because otherwise you're not helping us grow esports". For the "good old games" (think BW, Q3, CS 1.6) no one cared about some higher concept during their beginnings, I don't remember people telling you to do this or that for the greater good of your favorite game.
Play your favorite game. Communicate with others about it. Try to improve yourself. - That's the basis for a sport right there. There is no need to try and summon some GOD OF ESPORTS into this who will punish or reward your actions according to what you do, no need for a common canon.
Can we be nerds again please without worrying about the repercussions? =P
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I feel a majority of the community on sites like Teamliquid, Reddit, etc. are just hurting the game they supposedly love. People like players with personality and distinct style, but when someone does something unorthodox or proposes an idea that is not a professional player, the community jumps on them saying it is not viable, they are dumb. Basically insulting them. When we do not follow exactly what a pro is doing then we're considered bad and "should feel bad" so instead the idea is to copy exactly what the other player is doing precisely on time. The whole "eSport" label is a scam to me. eSport means the community sold out because they got bribed by companies to advertise products while playing a game. Look at what the simple mention of the term does. Buy blah blah blah to support esports, get hd for esports, go to x tourney to support esports. And then if you're not doing any the things that the "esports" people tell u to do, they make you feel bad by saying "you're hurting esports". The passion, the love, the action, the characters, where'd they all go? Why did they suddenly turn in to robots when SCII Beta rolled around? Questions that I ask when I consider SCII. Just my outlook on where the passion and love went.
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On January 12 2013 09:15 mizU wrote:
Loud minority, silent majority.
I still love SC2 <3
This is how i feel as well, i just love the game man. I love talking about strategies, not balance, i love listening to people who are positive and praising skill, every time i hear some putting players down it turns me off. Late last night i was on skype with someone, and we were playing so SC2 obs matches, just chatting and watching the games, then we played some sc2bw also, and that was fun too. I love this game, and i hope that all the people who have been complaining for the last year leave soon, and even if the scene shrinks a bit, that will be cool, because the people left will be the ones who care.
Edit, also:
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit number 2:
I have to say that something has been nigling at me since reading this, that the negativity isn't all as bad as people say it is, that really there is a feedback loop that is making it worse than it is, like watching that grubby hype video that someone made the other day is awesome.
Or that i can watch sase or grubby or tyler or axslav or incontrol's stream, and know who it is by the builds they are doing, or in the case of tyler and sase just the way they click on things. Their precision is very recognisable to me, thanks to streaming and analysing their replays, it isn't just true of BW, it is true of SC2 too if you really care
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5/5 Loved your op!
I think that everyone should relax, try their own builds, and have fun. Create you own style!
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On January 12 2013 07:29 Torte de Lini wrote:Your post reminds me of two entries I had written about. Both the drama and the lack of "personality" within builds and strategies of players. I attributed the lack of personality with builds due to the overabundance of tournaments. If you have to play in the open-brackets of three tournaments within a month (let's say IEM, IPL & MLG), then you are better off practicing your mechanics and endurance to play rather than creating new builds and styles. Show nested quote +In addition, tournaments mean more opponents and less specialty in plays. The emphasis on good macromanagement in-game, mentality and overall strategy becomes more demanded than training or preparing specifically for an opponent and their strategy (a la GSL or NASL). Endurance starts playing a larger value than one’s ability to really assess their opponent as well as out-think them. These tournaments potentially slow down strategy and competitive innovation for refining in mechanics and overall ability to play the game.
- Branching problem 2: With an influx of major tournaments, a player’s time is divided to preparing for all kinds of opponents as well as specific opponents in leagues. Preparation diminishes, strategy becomes stale and repetitive to what works most of the time.
It's about which net of builds will get you the farthest. The appeal to the GSL is the assumption that it is the highest-level of play, both on a player's mechanics as well as each match, presumably, being the summation of two players' preparation to understand one another and their strengths/weaknesses. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384505As for the emphasis and drama. More of the scene than the game, I think it's because the community is bored: both with the above issue as well as the fact that there is no proper story-telling or redefining of the players and their uniqueness. Show nested quote +Drama is the side-effect of an untold scene. My viewpoint on drama is that it is a byproduct of a bored environment. A boring scene is a culture without meaning in its crowning events or overall performance in entertainment. In my opinion, drama, rivalries, hype, nicknames and announcements are shapes and offshoots of story-telling for E-Sports. Why is story-telling so important? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387328
NO, the emphasis on the drama is the reason we dont have a proper "storytelling" in esports.
Whining is all over TL and thats the reason i hardly ever post here anymore.
I think the game is great and people should stop whining about patchzergs or the latest drama.
And the notion that people email teams sponsors JUST to get some consequence for a thing that didnt really matter is ridicolus, I usually dont read replys in posts because they are full of witch-hunting and BM.
Theres this drama heavy culture on TL that arised and THATS what is the issue here.
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That doesn't make any sense. How is drama preventing story-telling from organizations?
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On January 12 2013 19:06 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 12:10 CPTBadAss wrote:
You read the book too?? That's awesome. And I agree...they're such characters.
Can you tell me the name of the names of the Tetris and Missile Command movies and the books you've read? I'd love to read/watch them as well. The Tetris doc is Ecstasy of Order (I watched it on Hulu, maybe you can too since you're in America) and the Missile Command movie is called High Score. I also enjoy Chasing Ghosts (follows the same people as King of Kong but more broad info), Beyond The Game (WCG thing on Grubby and Sky in WC3), Frag (about FPS games and CPL - this one is particularly hilarious as it has a lot of now current SC2 commentators in their earlier days), the StarCraft WCG 2005 National Geographic piece (follows Xellos in a WCG run - done by Storyteller, a member of TL), and I Got Next (about fighting games). I even have a copy of MTV True Life - I'm a Gamer on an old hard drive which is amusing enough to watch every so often but it's largely about guys who don't compete. There is a Mike Ross documentary too that is good but I don't remember the name of. The books I've read off the top of my head are Master of Doom, Dungeons and Dreamers, and I'm currently reading Raising the Stakes. The first two are only tangentially related to competitions but have large sections describing early the early FPS scene but the latter is specifically esports driven. It's good so far but I'm only a few pages in.
So just to start off, the Mike Ross documentary was called Focus and was originally shown on G4 I think. If anyone is interested, the link can be found here. I definitely watched Frag, the Xellos piece, and the MTV episode. I've also read the Masters of Doom book, which was awesome. Thanks for the names of everything else.
Like you, it's fascinating to see that other communities love their respective games as much as the BW and SC2 scenes love their games....or hopefully do love the games.
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I really dislike SC2, playing and watching. The one redeeming factor is the team dynamic proleague adds, the game itself is as far from something one can get passionate about as anything.
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thank you so much for this article, would love to read more positive blogs and articles because truth be told, theres nothing as cool as esports to spent your free time on
also one thing id like to add is that i really dislike reddit as it tends to emphasize the worst parts of the community, of the 25 front posts there is like 1 post per week about actaal ingame content while the rest is about controversial or generally negative stuff
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This is quite an awesome post, and I have to agree with it too.
Starcraft is such a massive game, and it just keeps on growing. Mistakes I made in the past was playing the game for the sake of winning, rather than enjoying the game.
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Thank you for that post. I agree in many things you say.
For me personally the start of the Proleague was important because it brought from my point of view something new.
Players and Teams approaching the game differently, new maps, a new competition in general.
I*m exicted like in the old days of BW about watching that game and what the players do with it!:-)
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 13 2013 00:12 Surili wrote:I have to say that something has been nigling at me since reading this, that the negativity isn't all as bad as people say it is, that really there is a feedback loop that is making it worse than it is, like watching that grubby hype video that someone made the other day is awesome. Or that i can watch sase or grubby or tyler or axslav or incontrol's stream, and know who it is by the builds they are doing, or in the case of tyler and sase just the way they click on things. Their precision is very recognisable to me, thanks to streaming and analysing their replays, it isn't just true of BW, it is true of SC2 too if you really care
Mostly I hope this doesn't come off as feeding that loop. My goal when I sat down was to just write some stuff about how cool it is when people compete in games (mostly SC2) and it kind of took on a life of its own.
I'm a simple man. I like games and want to share that people who also like games.
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I can't agree more; in all the hustle'bustle of trying to make SC2 the greatest eSport, people have forgotten how eSports was founded... Love for the game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 19:06 LamaMitHut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:54 DamageControL wrote:On May 04 2012 05:38 LamaMitHut wrote:On May 04 2012 05:26 jeeeeohn wrote:On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote:
"While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."
Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality. This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical. Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game. Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means. Just a game. It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun. I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind. I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg. exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself. I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous. What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics. But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists. You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats. is he: a boring person, just because he don´t say "gook" or "nigger" all the time? is this "tame"? is this song "dried out"? ^^ i could post stuff like this for hours. =)
This was my answer in this blog. It is a little out of context, but i think you get my point. SC2 got an incredible community.
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A good read. I agree with everything you wrote.
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I agree; nothing is more exciting than seeing unconventional play work successfully, or an amazing display of skill. The drama surrounding the game is rather uninteresting to me.
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This is one of the best posts I've seen in a long time! I agree completely.
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As a person who has played less than 100 games of StarCraft since release but watched easily over 1000 hours of the game (at least 20-30 tournaments, catching almost every game), I have to say I really don't stick around for the drama, at least personally.
Maybe I'm an exception, but I really like the game, the players, and the casters, but I just can't play a game that I know I am bad at. I know I would get better with time, but my lack of skill in the game is a constant frustration and I just feel that watching it is all of the fun of playing it with having the added fun of the casters/interaction in live report threads.
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I think what you wish the scene was about is still there but as with anything when a huge community develops anywhere it is going to be the idiots that speak the loudest and so we happen to see that the most but there are still groups of people here for the love of the game and not the drama. Just like with film, the loud idiots are gossiping about the latest affair of XYZ actor but there are others that would prefer to discuss XYZ's acting methods or memorable moments.
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On January 12 2013 19:06 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 12:10 CPTBadAss wrote:
You read the book too?? That's awesome. And I agree...they're such characters.
Can you tell me the name of the names of the Tetris and Missile Command movies and the books you've read? I'd love to read/watch them as well. The Tetris doc is Ecstasy of Order (I watched it on Hulu, maybe you can too since you're in America) and the Missile Command movie is called High Score. I also enjoy Chasing Ghosts (follows the same people as King of Kong but more broad info), Beyond The Game (WCG thing on Grubby and Sky in WC3), Frag (about FPS games and CPL - this one is particularly hilarious as it has a lot of now current SC2 commentators in their earlier days), the StarCraft WCG 2005 National Geographic piece (follows Xellos in a WCG run - done by Storyteller, a member of TL), and I Got Next (about fighting games). I even have a copy of MTV True Life - I'm a Gamer on an old hard drive which is amusing enough to watch every so often but it's largely about guys who don't compete. There is a Mike Ross documentary too that is good but I don't remember the name of. The books I've read off the top of my head are Master of Doom, Dungeons and Dreamers, and I'm currently reading Raising the Stakes. The first two are only tangentially related to competitions but have large sections describing early the early FPS scene but the latter is specifically esports driven. It's good so far but I'm only a few pages in. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 12:54 Qwyn wrote:
My issue is this: there's nothing else.
There is NO RTS game that can compete with SCII in the current market (except BW). And somewhere down the line, you've got to stop using a 14 year old game as an example in the MODERN DAY gaming market. It is only a TESTAMENT to BW's quality that it is still a shining example of what an RTS game should be even while its successor is trying (and failing) to choke it out.
There needs to be competition. But no one is stepping up to the plate.
My love is for this genre. I portion only a bit out to this game. The rest is for the players, who work very hard at improving every day. Meanwhile, the developers do a shit job of making this game the PREMIERE competitive game (something that they proclaimed was one of their design goals so long ago).
These players deserve so much more than what they have. Most of them sacrifice EVERYTHING to play this game competitively. They are artists...and their canvas is shabby, warped and ragged.
Why do you think the deep, profound passion for the game is lacking. Why does it feel forced? Why is it so hard to find? Because this game is so much less than it could be. You can sidestep that fact all you want. It's something that was very, very painful for me to realize (especially since I spent so much of my life in this genre). Why the fuck do you think there are so many complaint threads that have popped up in the past few months? The community hasn't just gone to shit. We're all very passionate people with a love for the complexity of the competitive RTS game. And while some are satisfied with less, those who are complaining openly want this game to be so much more than it could be. Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there right now (with a thriving, vibrant population of players) that can compare with SCII.
And that is ONLY because there is NOTHING out there! This genre is a desolate wasteland. And I'm not talking about RTS games in general. I am talking about the competitive RTS genre that was forged by the weight of just one game, whose successor fails to deliver the canvas we have waited to behold for so goddamned long. I've wrestled with this for a while and ultimately while I agree it's weird that there is no real competition in the genre, I still think SC2 is a great game. There are enough people out there who really love it for the weird intricacies that exist within the game to make me a believer that it has many of the qualities we attribute to the greatest of competitive events. The juxtaposition between your post and signature is awesome. Well done.
You know what I love the most is the community <3.
It keeps me coming back again and again. And the fact that such a community can form around the game means that, even if it is not the game we've all been dreaming for - it's still enough to draw us all together.
And if a game can provide that, then it's a pretty damn good game.
Everything I write, I write out of passion. My previous post, and this one too.
Fuck yeah, TL <3.
EDIT: Also yeah, I PM'd him about that but he never responded lol. His sig is amazing.
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I'm so glad someone just came out and said it directly in a more articulate way than I could have.
5/5
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I feel BW had more strategic variety and higher APM requirements, which led to a variety of styles and thus better games and more memorable players. Because a player couldn't do everything, sometimes players got to be known for focusing on specific aspects of the game. For instance, Best was considered a great macro player b/c he took more of his APM to focus on this aspect of the game (that was his uniqueness) and thus he could have more units at any one time (but this advantage would be negated in PvT by running half his stuff into mines). Boxer, in his later years knew he had lower APM, so he relied on sneaky tactics (which are more highly rewarded in BW). Bisu could micro his zealots and probes better than anyone and do early game harass second to none. Even stale matchups where build orders were pretty predicitable and thus less variety like say ZvZ (lings mutas scourge) , the matchup was so APM intensive and could come down to a single drown or a single scourge, it made it exciting.
Also BW maps allowed players to do unique strategies that were dependent on the map. For instance, you could proxy the main of Blue Storm, or do funny bunker rushes on specific maps, other maps allowed gimmicky cannon rushes, other maps allowed you to hide a ghost a nuke a certain spot (there was a famous game where the map distributed to the players and the actual map were not the same and omitted this spot). All the maps where you had to glitch a worker through a temple had the potential for shenanigans. I remember a game on Destination, SkyHigh v. Savior, ace match and Skyhigh does a fake bunker rush, followed up by landing a barracks in the back of the main. I have not seen that level of creativity in SC2 lately, and its sad. Also end game armies differed based on the maps, (P could go carriers or arbiters, or even rarely dark archon) (Z could go ultra/ling/defiler or if an air map devourer/guardian) (in TvZ, T could go battleships, mech or bio). There were units that were rarely used (like dark archon), which when used made the game exciting. SC2 saddens me  because it seems to play out very predictably.
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Alright fine. I mean it's just a super "FOR ESPORTS" kind of post. You make it sound like everything is coming up roses, citing accelerated growth. But surely we can't ignore some of the problems of the scene. Accelerated growth? What about the frequent disbanding of major teams? There are an alarming number of quality players who remain teamless, and you get the feeling the list only gets longer. Even one of the most established teams, TSL, became another victim. And with all the players sitting unsigned, doesn't it seem that the supply of players is exceeding demand? Doesn't sound like growth to me. In addition, there is a ceiling for major tournaments. After one SC2 season, the OSL is kind of on a mini-hiatus, expected to return, but also due to the fact that in Korea, LoL is still king.
In a way SC2's unpopularity in korea has been a good thing for the rest of the world. Korean pros are heading to foreign teams, which benefits them financially and gets the fans excited to have someone of that caliber on a team they root for. However many teams can't afford major pickups compared to the financial, and community, juggernauts TeamLiquid and EG. Another reason why we see so many players without a home.
We don't need more people who like SC2 because it's the big thing, we need people who enjoy it for what it is and stay because they share an interest and will grow that passion.
So we shouldn't like it because it's big and profitable, but we should enjoy it so we can make it bigger and more profitable.
You say the community wastes too much time complaining about crap like Jessica (does, and about her even). One reason, other than the nature of the average consumer, people complain about drama and whatever is because 1) it sells, and 2) the scene has such an overabundance of games and tournaments, that the value and entertainment value of a single game goes down. A new strategy is amazing. After the thousandth time? It's okay, lost quite a bit of luster... Wow Life win a GSL, but there's like 5 a year so whoopie... Oh wait, Destiny showed his dick? Holy fuck! Outrage! Esports! And don't ignore the large quantities of fans that are drawn in if not solely due to controversy, or controversial players. There are quite a few people who bank on this being their only interesting aspect in SC2. You have to take the good with the bad in the scene. There's lately been this trend of "scene cleansing," a call to weed out fans and players of this type, thus leaving those who are truly pure of heart and love the game, were enough to actually exist.
Major tournaments exist to profit off of fans, and not for love of esports or whatever. It's a business, not a lifestyle.
If esports were a painting, StarCraft would be the largest canvas with the brightest colors sitting next to it, just waiting to be turned into a masterpiece of gigantic proportions.
This is incorrect, if you're implying that the canvas is currently blank. The SC2 canvas has been slathered with all kinds of colors the last 2 years, and when we stand back we have different opinions about the overall product we see. Such is the subjectivity of art. Maybe you're going for the whole, "Let's paint the sc2 canvas to make it beautiful" call to action. Maybe we want to cover up those muddied corners we don't want to see. Like the edrama, the money, those only looking to benefit themselves, the unemployed players, and constant problem of balance. Can we really make this all go away?
Esports is a magical and amazing thing. We're taking the most whimsical of pastimes and seeing what happens when you introduce an arena to the equation. Why did it become about anything more? Play for the love. Develop the passion. Cherish the game, inside and out.
This is just cheesy. Esports cheesy. There's no magic here! Companies make games to make money. Pro players play to make money. Tournaments are thrown to make money. It is not about something more. It's a profitable pastime, for some. A hobby, for many others. But certainly not an industry warranting the word "whimsical."
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Heck, Watching SC2 tournaments like GSL etc is weird. Code S players lose easily to Code A players and vice versa. So its skill cap is almost reached and there is not really "real" S-class player. Most games are BO3.
BW watching top class players playing BO1 and if they lose people are already considering that player is slumping etc. Only BO1 but top players maintained their edge/skill still. There was clear favorites and they usually hold up (instead of SC2 GSL games) and if they lost everybody praised opponent (whether for cheesing hardcore, perfect timing, other miracle or just player reaching that skill level).
So for short, Seeing GSL top tier protoss playing vs weaker protoss doesn't mean he is going to win almost every time but when watching BW you know better player wins almost every time.
I miss BW.
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This is all true, I LOVE sc2, and it is also true that it hasn't gone through its adolescence yet, but there are some who just want SC2 to grow up too fast, with the new expansion coming out HotS, this literally is like the chemicals that they put on food to make it grow faster, have more vibrant color, but take away its flavor. Looks yummy, looks big, looks juicy, but when you take a bite out of it, it leaves you disappointed, and knowing you would've liked the one that was naturally grown.
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Thanks for the post. I've thought this for a long time as well. Great threads about the game get buried really fast because everyone wants to talk about esports and it annoys me. I hope things turn around
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Just in time for the HotS release ^^
I think we definitely take this game for granted, I know I do. And to truely discover its depth takes a lot of work and passion. Looking forward to being passionate in 2013 with WoL and HotS.
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I agree. I didn't come to TL because some tournament had great casting, a huge prize pool, and "big name" players.
I came to TL because I liked Starcraft. Thats it. Eventually I began watching the tournaments and got to know all the players and became interested in player signings and other things but......when it comes down to it, the reason I came here, and the reason I am still here, is because I love Starcraft and enjoy communing with people who share my little niche of interests.
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Totally agree with everything you said. Starcraft is a game, and an amazing game at that. Games are meant to be enjoyed and I think a lot of people sometimes forget that. I know I do.
5/5
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I came here because Day[9] plugged TL. Back in the Beta. I was really into it at first, when the metagame didn't really exist and you could get exciting wins with a lot of 1 base pushes or something reaper cheeses and other ways to outmicro people.
Unfortunate that the strategy section here on TL was most of the time pushing for more bases, more macro more "standard"
I hate standard. Standard means to me "not unique". And as more and more pro games looked standard and the unique games became rarer, my interest waned.
Fortunately, TL is about more than just Starcraft. It is a big part, but it has so much more. The general forums, the funny threads, Dota 2 was picked up(the word standard is rarely even muttered there) and LoL and the TL Mafia subforum.
I love TL, even if I don't love SC2 anymore. A shame that things didn't quite go right.
tl;dr
I just want to say I always felt bad for not loving SC2 as much as I hoped I would. I am a bit happier now that I didn't force myself to stay. SC2 is better off with people that love the game from the bottom of their heart and luckily I can stay on TL and talk about other things I am still passionate about.
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Call me hipster or something but thats the reason Why i love stuff not so many others love. The passion is just more pure when shared with less.
Dont get me wrong. I still play and watch sc2 and dota. I'm just Not that pasionated anymore.
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5/5
These kind of blogs remind me why I feel at home on TL. Thank you Heyoka.
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Thank you Heyoka well said and thank you for reminding us. StarCraft 2 Fighting!!!! 
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The point made here is the same thing that caused me to stop playing and watching SC2. I simply don't feel the game in the same way that I felt Brood War and Dota is partially recreating. I really wanted eSports to grow huge, but to have a sport you need a game, and SC2 simply isn't that game for me. It simply isn't designed for fun, it's designed for competition.
So I left.
I uninstalled SC2, I stopped watching dailies, I stopped following tournaments and I didn't care about builds or trends anymore. Every single one of these things had grown stale and impotent with the release of Wings of Liberty. Everything I'd loved about the Brood War scene faded into a sort of android wild west, where every face was the same and the games were balanced on who pulled the trigger first. The saloons felt devoid of life, since everyone was crying the same thing, "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!", oblivious of the eSports we were losing. For me, TL.net became the most populated desert I have ever seen. Day[9] was trying to make good of Starcraft 2, but everyone was just one-base rushing. Why would we give all of that up? The 2012 awards speak the truth for those willing to hear: There is no "Most creative player" or "Most revolutionary player" awards. Chew on that. Properly chew that bit of information into smaller bits and properly digest it. What does that mean to you?
I still jump unto TL once or twice a month, but it's really just for nostalgia. The game is gone, lost in catering to "competitive" players and in rabid drama and eSports hyperbole. I play dota now. We, me and my friends, we love the game, because it is fun like Brood War was fun, because we don't get lost in competition and intimidating 'ladder anxiety'. Because the game feels right to play, like Brood War did.
Because that's what did it, wasn't it? Brood War felt really good to play. Even though you spent so much time learning to even control the game properly, it was all worth it. It was worth it because it took time and because when you did it right, it felt right.
Starcraft 2 failed to replicate that feeling and that was, in my opinion, why it will never be a true sequel to Brood War.
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You know, the points you make here really sunk in when I was watching the speedrunning community go at it during Awesome Games Done Quick. It occurred to me---what gave birth to speedrunning? It was people's love of the game. The same could, I figure, be said for Brood War---there are even some parallels, like optimizing routes to a certain point, building mechanics, and learning how to manipulate the game in ways that were perhaps unintended. I suppose that still happens but the roots have been displaced somehow---it isn't for the love of the game, as you said.
I still care about SC2 but my friends have mostly switched to DotA 2, which is much more accessible to them, and so that's what I play these days. This thread has made me much more conscious of how much I appreciate both games. So thanks for that.
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I can't really play MOBAs because there just isn't enough to do mechanically, lol. I'm a really mechanical player, so when I sit down to play a game of LoL or Dota2 with my father and his gang my fingers are going 500 mph, and there's nothing fucking happening -_-.
I am one of those players who wants more mechanical difficulty. I want more to do all the time, lol.
It is so satisfying to me, and SC2 lacks that.
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edit.
eh...
I am just a BW lover and SC2 hater but I delete what I wrote because I don't want to foul up your blog.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 15 2013 04:31 DerNebel wrote:
The point made here is the same thing that caused me to stop playing and watching SC2. I simply don't feel the game in the same way that I felt Brood War and Dota is partially recreating. I really wanted eSports to grow huge, but to have a sport you need a game, and SC2 simply isn't that game for me. It simply isn't designed for fun, it's designed for competition.
So I left.
People always make this sound like a terrible thing but I don't understand why. Esports is a fun hobby. If you're not having fun there is no reason to do it, go find something else that makes you happy. A community isn't very useful if it's full of people who aren't enjoying their time there.
Polygamy don't forget we have the TLS now! You can still stay in touch with BW at least in some small way. Also SSL!
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[QUOTE]On January 15 2013 10:30 heyoka wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 15 2013 04:31 DerNebel wrote:
Polygamy don't forget we have the TLS now! You can still stay in touch with BW at least in some small way. Also SSL![/QUOTE]
That's true and I do still like watching BW. I was just ready for something new too though. I was playing watching BW for ever ten years so the idea of a new or updated game was appealing. I just can't find my self enjoying death ball and hard counter play. I think SC2 could be great if a few units were replaced with something else. IE Coli, Marauder's concussive shell, broodlords and zerg larva saving.
On a positive note I think the Kespa maps are a step in the right direction.
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On January 12 2013 07:25 heyoka wrote:
SC2 is an amazing game. It offers competitive depth and allows for a variety of playstyles completely unmatched in any game (at least anything not named Brood War).
Do you really believe that?
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StarCraft II hasn't had that beautiful adolescence. The time when gamers obsess about the game not because of what they see on stage, but because of what they see in front of them. What they experience on the battlefield itself, the magnificent combination of planning and execution that make up a game. We need to make ESPORTS happen was the rally cry of 2010, and set the tone for the community since. Topics about the players, their style, and unique strategies are lost among a sea of discussion regarding the state of the industry and daily gossip.
I personally agree with this and I think a lot of people who transitioned from watching BW to SC2 feel the same. I don't think you can apply this to the game of SC2 itself though (however much I don't like the game haha). There are plenty of gamers who came into SC2 fresh and genuinely enjoyed the game, then came to communities like TL or reddit or even youtube to learn more about it, then discovered the esports side of it. For them there is the same kind of "adolescence" that people who first picked up SC1 one experienced. As a bitter BW dude I try as much as possible not to ruin it for those guys and let them enjoy their game from the same fresh perspective I had for SC1 (thankfully I still get to experience this feeling with games like LoL and hopefully can still feel the same with new games in the future).
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On January 12 2013 09:15 mizU wrote:
Loud minority, silent majority.
I still love SC2 <3
it's obviously a loud majority at this point.
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On January 15 2013 20:11 Animzor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 09:15 mizU wrote:
Loud minority, silent majority.
I still love SC2 <3 it's obviously a loud majority at this point.
Obviously? Citation needed fine sir.
On January 13 2013 08:23 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 00:12 Surili wrote:I have to say that something has been nigling at me since reading this, that the negativity isn't all as bad as people say it is, that really there is a feedback loop that is making it worse than it is, like watching that grubby hype video that someone made the other day is awesome. Or that i can watch sase or grubby or tyler or axslav or incontrol's stream, and know who it is by the builds they are doing, or in the case of tyler and sase just the way they click on things. Their precision is very recognisable to me, thanks to streaming and analysing their replays, it isn't just true of BW, it is true of SC2 too if you really care Mostly I hope this doesn't come off as feeding that loop. My goal when I sat down was to just write some stuff about how cool it is when people compete in games (mostly SC2) and it kind of took on a life of its own. I'm a simple man. I like games and want to share that people who also like games.
It doesn't come off that way, it seems honest and has depth. If everyone who complained about something actually went into detail about it then i wouldn't have a problem, and there would actually be come constructive stuff out of it. It is all this kneejerk feeling shit that puts me off.
Also, Happy Birthday.
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On January 15 2013 10:30 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 04:31 DerNebel wrote:
The point made here is the same thing that caused me to stop playing and watching SC2. I simply don't feel the game in the same way that I felt Brood War and Dota is partially recreating. I really wanted eSports to grow huge, but to have a sport you need a game, and SC2 simply isn't that game for me. It simply isn't designed for fun, it's designed for competition.
So I left. People always make this sound like a terrible thing but I don't understand why. Esports is a fun hobby. If you're not having fun there is no reason to do it, go find something else that makes you happy. A community isn't very useful if it's full of people who aren't enjoying their time there. Polygamy don't forget we have the TLS now! You can still stay in touch with BW at least in some small way. Also SSL!
I have the feeling that a super competitive environment exhausts many people mentally because if you let go for a little too much time you fall behind very fast. People aren't necessarily bad at the game. I believe that many casual players have played the game more heavily for a shorter or longer period of time in which they were able to develop a decent level of skill.
Now most people can't be playing that much for longer period of time because other things in life don't allow that. If you stop playing the game you fall behind. I don't know how you can have fun with that. I don't want Starcraft to be a noob friendly game dear god no but maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing if there were small tournaments for all levels of skill. Just for the fun of it.
The game i grew to love was Warcraft 3 before i played Starcraft 2. I think the following can be said about people who played broodwar as well: I got introduced to wc3 by a couple of friends at a time i didn't even know that something like esports exists. I didn't like it very much at the beginning but the second time i came back to look at it made me fall in love with the game. One of the important aspects is that we enjoyed the game for what it was (like you said it should be in your blog). Later we found out about esports and really started to develop as players (looking at pro level players) but we always wanted to get better for the single reason that is being the best in our little group. We played custom games nearly every evening for a few years and all in good fun. At the end (also during the time Sc2 came out) our level of play was really solid.
All that achieved with no stress at all.
That story perfectly describes what you mention in your blog. You have to grow with the game and love it because it's simply fun to play. The thing with Sc2 is that it got hyped so fast it's just unnatural... really. From the very beginning there were so many tournaments although people didn't even know if the game is going to be good for a longer period of time.
You get thrown into that super competitive environment. It feels like you have to accomplish something.
I achieved decent level of play in sc2 at the very start. It all got messed up because i don't have that much time to play anymore. For me it just isn't fun to play at a low level. It's all or nothing for me and since i dont have the time anymore i may as well let it be.
Starcraft 2 is a great game but i think with that urge to be the biggest esport in the industry the fun goes away for many people. People want to achieve something. Thats natural. So you get thrown into this competitive thing and if you don't make it you sort off burn out with no fun at all.
That's my point of few and my feeling about the situation (ok partly because we don't play as a group of friends anymore like we did in wc3) and i bet others made a similar experience.
Speaking of which, Day9's funday monday may well be important for the development of the game because it gives younger and newer players something fun instead of the pure urge to succeed. I had my "heroes" in wc3 which made the game so much fun for me that i grew to really love it. That is important!
The problem isn't the game itself... Sc2 is very good in my opinion!
Edit: I didn't read the whole thread before i posted but no i realize how many people feel the same. It's astounding...
Also my english isn't good enough to make it precise. I just delivered a wall of text and a story of mine but i guess you got the point =)
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Please, this is a great post that doesn't deserve to evolve into an another BW/SC2 fight.
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This was a very good read.
I watch Starcraft 2 every week-end. Personally, I love the KeSPA teams and players. I love Proleague. I really like big parts of this community... But I can't say that I like SC2 that much. All I like about it comes from BW. It is quite frustrating in a way.
So I guess that what I like, now, is really esports rather than Starcraft. Watching the players I like compete. I mean, if Jaedong started doing figure skating, I would start watching that too... But I wonder if I will ever see more in SC2, as a game, than the thing that killed my favorite past time.
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I have been playing Blizzard's RTS games since Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. Also Westwood's since Dune II, on an Amiga 500+, but that's a different story. I loved all of them, in their specific way. Warcraft I for "stop poking meeeee!", Warcraft II for those endless battles fought between me and my friends, Starcraft 1 and BW for being way ahead of its time, and WC3 RoC and TFT for having this beautiful campaign and, well, Orcs in multiplayer.
And I am loving SC2.
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Evocative and well thought out piece! You've reminded me of a time when I actually enjoyed laddering. Time to bring back that joy I think.
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On January 15 2013 04:31 DerNebel wrote:
The point made here is the same thing that caused me to stop playing and watching SC2. I simply don't feel the game in the same way that I felt Brood War and Dota is partially recreating. I really wanted eSports to grow huge, but to have a sport you need a game, and SC2 simply isn't that game for me. It simply isn't designed for fun, it's designed for competition.
So I left.
I uninstalled SC2, I stopped watching dailies, I stopped following tournaments and I didn't care about builds or trends anymore. Every single one of these things had grown stale and impotent with the release of Wings of Liberty. Everything I'd loved about the Brood War scene faded into a sort of android wild west, where every face was the same and the games were balanced on who pulled the trigger first. The saloons felt devoid of life, since everyone was crying the same thing, "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!", oblivious of the eSports we were losing. For me, TL.net became the most populated desert I have ever seen. Day[9] was trying to make good of Starcraft 2, but everyone was just one-base rushing. Why would we give all of that up? The 2012 awards speak the truth for those willing to hear: There is no "Most creative player" or "Most revolutionary player" awards. Chew on that. Properly chew that bit of information into smaller bits and properly digest it. What does that mean to you?
I still jump unto TL once or twice a month, but it's really just for nostalgia. The game is gone, lost in catering to "competitive" players and in rabid drama and eSports hyperbole. I play dota now. We, me and my friends, we love the game, because it is fun like Brood War was fun, because we don't get lost in competition and intimidating 'ladder anxiety'. Because the game feels right to play, like Brood War did.
Because that's what did it, wasn't it? Brood War felt really good to play. Even though you spent so much time learning to even control the game properly, it was all worth it. It was worth it because it took time and because when you did it right, it felt right.
Starcraft 2 failed to replicate that feeling and that was, in my opinion, why it will never be a true sequel to Brood War.
this.
and the blog is awesome. 5/5
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someone mentioned it before, but I've been thinking about how to elaborate on what they said. sorry if there are any grammatical errors in the following, typing on an iPad isn't as easy as Apple would like us to believe.
Teamliquid.net as well as Reddit do an invaluable service to the community, but as OP post suggests, the talk about e-sports, the structure and the constant drama ( Jessica and SlayerS, Slasher and Garfield etc) has a tendency to envelope the creative aspect behind the e-sport entity, I.e the playmakers, the build refiners. I think, as someone mentioned that a lot of the smaller communities, for instance SC2sea are still in a habit of showing their love for the game. But I think this is primarily because, and I may be wrong, there is still a strong tendency within the SEA community to grow there grassroot community and foster sub-communities within that. Clans are still a massive part of SEA with weekly tournaments, but it isn't necessarily about the money or the glimmer of fame, but primarily about a group of guys and gals who just want to have fun and play SC2.
I want to perhaps put something forward that may be controversial, or not, it may just seem weird to people. But what if we left teamliquid.net and Reddit to the big things. The e-sports agenda, the drama. a little drama is always a lot of fun. Lets foster grassroots play. The love of the game begins at the very start, and this is I think about smaller communities such as those over at SC2sea. The Big teams aren't gonna foster the growth of the love of the game, they want to foster the worth of e-sports. it's up to us, the average player, the Joe Schmo of SC2 to foster that love for the game. We all have it, We all have a love for e-sports as well.
How do we do this? I agree with Torte about the over saturation of tournaments. last Novemeber was insane for how many hours of Starcraft I watched...and frankly I got a little bit sick of it. it was trying to watch so much. But when late December hit, I logged on to the SEA server and found myself in the mGG clan channel and being in that close knit community helped me love the game again, I still watch a lot of e-sports, but I also play a lot more. I think fostering these smaller communities will help at 'love for the game' it will help foster map-makers and strategists. it will also help build the foundations of e-sports in general.
I think this has been majorly forgotten by the 'boys club' ( whatever that may imply) of e-sports. hey seem to have forgotten that there are a lot more then just the 100-150+ progamers we here about every week.
Not sure If Im making much sense, it's late, really stinking hot and Im quite sick and sore. But I guess, in a long winded way of saying it is that I agree with OP. The question becomes how do we foster both the love of the game and e-sports. and I think, referencing the debate between Torte and I on whether e-sports can be understood as a sport, we can learn from "traditional sports" about how to foster community growth at both ends of the spectrum. at the low end you focus on the game, the love of it etc, at the higher end, progamers, teams, e-sports in general.
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Awesome blog 5/5
I reckon myself in a lot of posts written here. I was a huge fan of BW and WC3, and of course when Starcraft II came out I made the transition. In the beginning it was all fun and recreating, there was the amazing rise of eSport with tournaments everywhere, streams, Day[9] and so on. But, a few months after the initial hype, I just felt that it was not what I had expected from the game. It felt cold and mechanical. It was like being drown in a too huge community, too many streams, too many tournaments, too many players to follow, and finally not that much fun. The magic of BW or WC3 was not there.
Some days, I think that it's not that much the fact that Starcraft 2 has been pushed too far and too quickly to be a great eSport, or the gameplay, or skill level. It is more that I am nostalgic of an era that has ended.
As far as I am concerned, BW was fun because I had these games all night long with my friends, these games on unbalanced non-symmetric maps with funky builds/strats and shifting alliances. Yes, these games were shitty, unbalanced, whatever ! No one cared because they were fun. Not to mention that at this time, playing Broodwar with friends or going to a tournament often require to move the family computer to a friend's house. The Broodwar weekend was some kind of expedition and it was part of the fun.
Watching the pro-scene was also different. No streams, very few replays on Youtube, watching the koreans playing live or even watching replays was something rare and exceptional. And these players were like legendary to us. I remember when I got an autograph from Stork, I almost peed my pants.
Furthermore playing games like BW or WC3 was not that common. The community was smaller and it was easier to feel a bit special. Even being the leader of a small team or clan, it already felt like you were contributing to something.
Well, I am afraid that I grew up and so did the community. Nowadays, I don't feel that special being a SC2 player. Just everyone plays video games and is part of one or several on-line communities.
With streams and replays everywhere and the over-abundance of tournaments, the progamers have lost a bit of their magic, there are just progamersand good games everywhere.
Whenever I play SC2 I feel compelled to play good games, with the right mechanics and build, and to win. And yes I feel ladder anxiety, which is mostly why I stopped playing. Team games with friends are not the same neither with everyone in its own house and all the maps looking more or less the same.
Don't misunderstand me, I still love SC2 and the community a lot ! It is just that it is not the same. Fortunately, I still have a lot of fun going to live event and watching awesome games live with other people (and not alone in front of my computer). And this is possible thanks to the awesome TL community.
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I could not agree with the original post more.
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I always felt that this was a symptom of the fact the game was made to be an esport first and fun second....browder basically said as much.
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I agree with this, and this is why I steer clear of the drama threads and watch the vast majority of my SC2 content completely away from the opinions of other people. I'm sure I lose something by doing this, but I feel like I gain more. I don't need to hear/read infestor OP for the 100th time. I don't need some 14 year old gold player's critique on what a player did wrong. It is worthless information to me, and it is almost always negative.
It is always easy to denigrate and jump on the band wagon about what is wrong with SC2, esports, etc. etc. However, in my little bubble my enjoyment of the game (watching and playing) has hardly diminished since WoL beta. I still get excited when I see great plays, clutch micro, or bizarre/new builds. I don't give two shits about esports, the future of the game, or what the latest drama thread on reddit is. I just enjoy watching and playing the game. And I like it that way.
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to the op: wow. You've really gotten to something here, and thanks for letting it out. Great read and great thoughts.
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Can you link or name that Tetris documentary? Sounds pretty cool.
edit:
Is it called Ecstasy of Order? You can watch it free here (hulu, so US only i guess) http://www.hulu.com/watch/429491
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Brad Shoemaker from Giant Bomb kept saying how he enjoyed SC2 in beta and I related to him a lot and his reviews. So I started playing SC2 right when it came out and dove in pretty deep. I remember those first magical days when I slowly discovered Artosis and Tasteless on the GSL, buying my first TV at age 31(I haven't had cable in over 10 years, by choice) and watching the GSL every day before work. For about 2 years I was knee deep is SC2 and I still come to TL every day.
Really the hardest part has been the community as it slowly turned on SC2, the professional players, and Blizzard. In the beginning, it was awesome that we could be so close to the players and the community was so involved with events. That Sundance and MGL showed us their new sat-truck right after Dallas. But slowly the empowered community learned how much damage it could do with this and everyone has had to pull back over the dumbest things and it has slowly pushed me away from SC2. SotG went stopped being a regular show as the community chased all the hosts off air. It seems like we have to hunt so hard just to find anyone who is excited about SC2 any more, yet every barcraft I go to, people are pumped for the next game. Its amost like TL housed a loud minority that only wanted to see SC2 die so they could be right.
I have been dabbling in LoL with a group of friends(mostly married couples, all who have super limited time). We all have a ton of fun and we enjoy watching SC2 and LoL. Still, I long to dive in deep again when HotS comes out.
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I expanded on my thoughts above in the general section. It was a rush job so excuse the wording and overall style. But I think it comes down to the problem that Heyoka describes.
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Put into words the feelings I've had over the last few years. I am one of those who could never quit playing Brood War even though I tried many times to stop.
I can't even stop reading about Starcraft 2 tournaments even though I have hardly played since release and don't enjoy the game at all. I miss the game of Brood War and TL.net is one of my few bookmarks so I still visit.
With the Brood War community being so small there was a legitimate, decade long struggle to have our favorite game validated by the gaming community and I believe that we succeeded. However, SC2 has seen so much validation yet it's not as excellent of a game. Kind of a shame but not surprising. The BW community has a history of being largely ignored by the mainstream gaming community yet respected as among the best of them all.
BW fans are passionate about the game, first and foremost. You had to back yourself up after someone disagreed and asked, "1v1?" In SC2 it seems like anyone with a microphone and a webcam is spouting their inane opinions and because they don't have a strong knowledge of the game then they fill up their time with drama drivel. Esports itself is the centerpiece and it's part of our post modern dilemma. This problem is not unique to esports.
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On January 20 2013 23:07 seaofsaturn wrote:Can you link or name that Tetris documentary? Sounds pretty cool. edit: Is it called Ecstasy of Order? You can watch it free here (hulu, so US only i guess) http://www.hulu.com/watch/429491
Yes it is the Ecstasy of Order.
To anyone else else interested in watching these kinds of documentaries, here's another one about EG's Justin Wong.
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On January 16 2013 08:46 Elroi wrote:
This was a very good read.
I watch Starcraft 2 every week-end. Personally, I love the KeSPA teams and players. I love Proleague. I really like big parts of this community... But I can't say that I like SC2 that much. All I like about it comes from BW. It is quite frustrating in a way.
So I guess that what I like, now, is really esports rather than Starcraft. Watching the players I like compete. I mean, if Jaedong started doing figure skating, I would start watching that too... But I wonder if I will ever see more in SC2, as a game, than the thing that killed my favorite past time.
Agree especially with the points in bold. I keep coming back to Proleague because I want to see how my favorite players are doing. I keep watching their wins and losses to see the high-fives and the doom zooms and the cheering and the rivalries. I do enjoy still enjoy it --- I enjoy a SC2 game where my guy wins, mainly because of nostalgia but partly because there are some fun things in SC2. But my personal feeling is that the spark and the substance is gone, and that Proleague is only a shadow of itself.
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If I might offer my perspective-
As someone who never participated in Broodwar but has loved SC2 since its beginning, I can say that my involvement is not only from a love of the game and a love of the RTS genre. My love of SC2 comes not only from the intensely competitive aspect, but also from the community. I'm not going to drop names but I think we all know some community personalities that help shape the game and the way people view it.
In my personal opinion, Starcraft 2 is one of the most, if not THE most, competitive games alive today. I think it is exactly because of that fact that we see so much negativity in the community, because people are so passionate about this game.
Regardless of how people interact, or discuss esports, or share their views in a positive or negative light, it all boils down to one thing- Passion. Love of the game. I see a lot of negativity on TL, but also a lot of positivity. But on both ends of the spectrum, there is pure passion. No one would spend all day every day arguing on forums or letting a video game affect their daily lives or attitude unless they were really passionate about it. And that is the way I feel. Whether people spend they're time being negative or positive, the shared theme is passion.
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Great post. My interest in the scene has been declining lately which Ive really been bummed out about. I think I just need to find my love for SC2 again.
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On January 12 2013 07:31 SKC wrote:
People should try doing what they like instead of trying to like what they think they should do. Perhaps then they would care less about things not being how they would like them to be and perhaps even care less about what other people liked.
this rings the truth!
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I love this post. The incessant talk of esports and not of the game drove me away from the scene. I loved reading the long drawn out descriptions of particular games and particular matchsets that were posted after tournaments. I loved listening to Artosis and Day9 turn macro games into both comedy and dramatic suspense. I still find it amazing how such a riveting story can grow from something like a competitive video game. Stories often blessed with personality in both the casters and players.
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can this be starred for... ever?
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On January 12 2013 07:31 SKC wrote:
People should try doing what they like instead of trying to like what they think they should do. Perhaps then they would care less about things not being how they would like them to be and perhaps even care less about what other people liked.
Poetry.
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The problem with passion for sc2 is, the matchups are often boring to watch and to play thats why i lost my passion for starcraft.Its just not fun to see a Zerg and a Protoss camping in there base for xx minutes then everything explodes in one fight. Same thing in tvz when the terran plays mech u know u could go take a shit and come back after 15 minutes because nothing is going to happen in this time.Its just boring as fuck.
The game is overall just too deathballish too much splashdmg everything dies so damn fast.
At least thats my point of view and the reason why iam bored when i watch sc2 streams.
TvZ only fun if the teran doesnt play hardcore tutle mode mech wahtever
TvP not too bad
TvT depends can be fun to watch can be totally boring
PvP absolute joke after earlygame gamble its just camping then everything explodes in one fight and the player with more collosus wins
PvZ maybe the worst matchup ever in a blizzard game
ZvZ most of the times much stuff happens so i like it its pretty good
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I enjoy playing and watching Starcraft 2 as a competitive game. I don't even browse teamliquid normally and I care nothing at all about the drama. I just like watching great games played by great players that are casted by great casters (GSL is the only tournament I watch regularly).
Maybe I'm a rarity here, but I don't care about eSports at all. If Starcraft series is the only eSport that ever has success, I really wouldn't care. If Starcraft 2 as an eSport died down to really small competitions and no professional (pro as in, making a living playing the game, players), I would still watch the top competition and still play the game.
I don't watch Starcraft 2 because it's a great eSport, I watch it because it's a great sport. Fast-paced action, amazing players that play at a level higher than I could dream of, extreme micro ability, inventive strategies, and split-second decisions that make or break a game. For me, no other eSport comes close to the entertainment of Starcraft 2. I find DotA 2 somewhat boring to play, and extremely boring to watch. No game like that could ever replace what I love about SC2.
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Russian Federation604 Posts
sc2 is the best cybersport game now!
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5/5 blog I really liked it. You show some great points.
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EPT
