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Agree with OP and Torte de Lini.
It feels that the esports aspect of SC2 was inherited from the previous communities. Everyone put their expertise together to make SC2 an excellent esports but what went missing is the passion for the game. Our players are too old and professional, our casts streamlined and our discussions over. We have so much more good stuff (streams, viewers, oppurtunities, prize money) in SC2 but we appreciate it less. It feels hard to do and move something in SC2, which often includes having more money.
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results
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I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies.
Personally I always latched onto players who had really really specific playstyles. Like Select who always had the cheek to 2rax or cheese just to keep his opponents honest. He had a crazy personality off camera too but it felt like it showed in his gameplay just the same. Just like how Thorzain's patient and thorough play reflects him off camera. I had the chance to meet him in person and he's pretty reserved, just like his playstyle.
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I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case?
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reading the paragraph about SC2 having no "beautiful adolescence" instantly the face of young Macaulay Culkin came into my head. Starcrafts "2010" was Culkins "Kevin alone at home". Very young and without any time to make mistakes in privacy. Let`s hope the game has a better future than Culkins career after his first movies.
BUT if not, it`s only a little sad. Because other games are fun too. ^_____^
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TLADT24920 Posts
I feel that the market is currently too saturated with tournaments in SCII unlike in BW where it was limited to OSL, MSL and PL with WCG. In turn, this means that players don't have time to develop their own styles since they are busy flying from one place to another and trying to work on mechanics since those can carry you far. This is the same reason why LiquidHerO was and is still considered an amazing player. Back when he first transferred to TL, everyone was raving about his multitasking as a protoss player because it was new, fresh, exciting to watch and I guess his signature seeing as how he was compared to Bisu.
It feels like this community does complain a lot. I spend a lot of time on TL and most of the threads that pop up aside from interviews or team/player changes are balance whines or dramas. Take into account SlayerS disbanding and the drama regarding MMA, Ryung, Jessica and CranK or the Ministry of Win threads that popped up about their mismanagement and problem regarding their services etc... Likewise, consider all the threads that revolve around discussing terran domination at game release or the threads that revolve around Zerg and the infestor. While I do think that some things need change, the amount of people complaining is too ridiculous and those who are passionate about the game will accept the imbalance and find ways to work around them while Blizzard works on patching them if need be. There is no need to write 50 posts on why you think the infestor is imba etc...
I've been playing a lot of BW lately. I've lost games to some truly OP stuff lol. Things like my opponent dropping a reaver in my base and taking out my workers before I could respond or in another case dropping lurkers into my main and my only form of detection is gone. Even in BW, I lost a TvP because I took too much time to take out my opponent and he went carriers so my ground army which had 7 goliaths was wiped clean >< Yes, I got pissed because I felt like I had it but I accepted the loss because it was my fault that I didn't scan his base to see why he only attacked me several times. My point is that, the complaining is causing the nerf bat to be swung too many times and people keep blaming the game instead of just accepting the loss and working harder. In BW, even though reavers, hts, lurkers, defilers, tanks, etc...were OP, no one complained and everyone just tried harder.
Anyways, getting way off topic but I totally agree with what you wrote. The scene sprung overnight based around BW's success. SCII matured way too fast and I think we've hit a climax at this point. Eventually, once the last expansion is released and Blizzard is done patching for good, those who are passionate about the game will remain and forgo a more tight knit community 
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Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 12 2013 09:32 SinCitta wrote:
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results
The artist analogy feels really natural to me, the texture each individual game has is unique and interesting and it's unbelievably sweet to watch that play out before your eyes in a competitive environment.
On January 12 2013 09:42 CPTBadAss wrote:
I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies.
I'm a huge junkie for these movies, I've seen King of Kong dozens of times because it's a wonderful story with just the right amount of craziness. I used to make the girls I dated watch it with me to show them what it was I was most passionate about. Word Wars is amazing too (as is the book), those dudes are hilarious and they're all hugely into their own bizarre thing with no worry about what anyone else thinks of it. I even love that really minimal documentary about the guy trying to beat the a Missile Command score. I actually found one I haven't seen (in reading a book about esports) and am excited to sit down and give it a look this weekend.
On January 12 2013 10:29 tshi wrote:
I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case?
I don't think it's the money but maybe the illusion of money. There is definitely a certain portion of people who try to get involved and be good or notable purely because they think the fame or money matter, and when they inevitably start to struggle or realize that their goals don't line up with reality it can cause problems.
On January 12 2013 10:58 RoninShogun wrote:
Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog
For the record Flamewheel is probably better than anyone in that documentary but it centers around NES Tetris specifically so it's hard to say, the game is different enough that a lot of the crazy moves he can pull off just aren't possible in it.
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I was introduced to this game by a friend, who had and has no love for "esports". However, the more I got into this game, the more he didn't and he hasn't played in almost a year. Here I am, a daily visitor of Team Liquid, a regular watcher of Day9 and a guy who ladders as often as possible. I just like Starcraft. Maybe we do get caught up in the other things a little too often. It's a great game, just go out and play it. Revel in it. Love it. But most of all, play it.
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Great post.
It's quite a simple and easy point to grasp, and you're getting it across very well. But at the same time I feel it's just something that can't be resolved even through knowing the problem. In SC2 "it" might or might not come with time. By "it", I mean that feeling I first got when I got into BW. This sounds very subjective and specific to me, but I'm certain some of you know exactly what I mean. The spark. When you know 'this is my game, and this is my community'.
I wasn't looking for a game like BW. I had never been into RTS before - I was an FPS gamer. I stumbled upon BW by complete accident.
As a BW fan both now and then, you do necessarily possess the qualities you're talking about. You're in it purely for the love of the game. The pre-SC2 teamliquid really reflected that.
However, something struck me while reading the OP. Do you remember back then? While we really did have enough in our selves, we, as a community backing our game, constantly strived for something bigger. Like in South Korea, but global! We want everybody else to appreciate how cool OUR game is, how difficult OUR game is. We strived for ESPORTS and recognition. It seems to me, that real dedication comes from an unreachable goal. A part of the Elliott Smith song “Can't make a sound” comes to my mind here: “Why should you want any other, when you're a world within a world?”. While we had a common dream, we were really best off with things not changing. That dream didn't really come true with SC2 anyway. It's still a niche, though bigger. But to me, basically a downgrade, because personally I hoped for something better. I was not able to reinvent my initial appreciation for a game.
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On January 12 2013 11:12 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 09:32 SinCitta wrote:
About the personality in gamestyles: I do agree that it is lacking (though I am not really sure why). I think discovering the player's personality in a play the most beautiful aspect of RTS, similar how an artist tries to express himself in his work. Even though WC3 was much more limited in strategic variance, it was fun to watch all the little things certain players did differently. Different to that, I can hardly tell players apart in SC2. My SC2 experience mostly degraded into having some stream in a background tab and checking results The artist analogy feels really natural to me, the texture each individual game has is unique and interesting and it's unbelievably sweet to watch that play out before your eyes in a competitive environment. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 09:42 CPTBadAss wrote:
I've watched a few documentaries similar the the one OP mentioned: King of Kongs, Word Wars, and Special When Lit.
What always struck me is how much people love THE GAME. I remember in Word Wars how much people trashed each other's playstyles and tactics. I love how heyoka voiced the same thing I felt when I was watching these movies. I'm a huge junkie for these movies, I've seen King of Kong dozens of times because it's a wonderful story with just the right amount of craziness. I used to make the girls I dated watch it with me to show them what it was I was most passionate about. Word Wars is amazing too (as is the book), those dudes are hilarious and they're all hugely into their own bizarre thing with no worry about what anyone else thinks of it. I even love that really minimal documentary about the guy trying to beat the a Missile Command score. I actually found one I haven't seen (in reading a book about esports) and am excited to sit down and give it a look this weekend. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:29 tshi wrote:
I kinda want to say that there is too much money and that some of the people who are playing it are only in it for that, but I dont know if that's the case? I don't think it's the money but maybe the illusion of money. There is definitely a certain portion of people who try to get involved and be good or notable purely because they think the fame or money matter, and when they inevitably start to struggle or realize that their goals don't line up with reality it can cause problems. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 10:58 RoninShogun wrote:
Man should talk to Flamewheel about Tetris sometime if you wanna see some real stacking, that guy's crazy
But yeah nice blog For the record Flamewheel is probably better than anyone in that documentary but it centers around NES Tetris specifically so it's hard to say, the game is different enough that a lot of the crazy moves he can pull off just aren't possible in it.
You read the book too?? That's awesome. And I agree...they're such characters.
Can you tell me the name of the names of the Tetris and Missile Command movies and the books you've read? I'd love to read/watch them as well.
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"Play for the love. Develop the passion. Cherish the game, inside and out."
I really love this line.
And, I also like how you are happy that other games are garnering some of the spotlight. This is such a good point, and it takes the emphasis off of competing with other games.
I don't even understand the mentality that it is a zero sum game, if LoL gets bigger, our game is smaller by comparison. This simply isn't true. Even if the player base does drop somewhat, the game is equally as beautiful.
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My issue is this: there's nothing else.
There is NO RTS game that can compete with SCII in the current market (except BW). And somewhere down the line, you've got to stop using a 14 year old game as an example in the MODERN DAY gaming market. It is only a TESTAMENT to BW's quality that it is still a shining example of what an RTS game should be even while its successor is trying (and failing) to choke it out.
There needs to be competition. But no one is stepping up to the plate.
My love is for this genre. I portion only a bit out to this game. The rest is for the players, who work very hard at improving every day. Meanwhile, the developers do a shit job of making this game the PREMIERE competitive game (something that they proclaimed was one of their design goals so long ago).
These players deserve so much more than what they have. Most of them sacrifice EVERYTHING to play this game competitively. They are artists...and their canvas is shabby, warped and ragged.
Why do you think the deep, profound passion for the game is lacking. Why does it feel forced? Why is it so hard to find? Because this game is so much less than it could be. You can sidestep that fact all you want. It's something that was very, very painful for me to realize (especially since I spent so much of my life in this genre). Why the fuck do you think there are so many complaint threads that have popped up in the past few months? The community hasn't just gone to shit. We're all very passionate people with a love for the complexity of the competitive RTS game. And while some are satisfied with less, those who are complaining openly want this game to be so much more than it could be. Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there right now (with a thriving, vibrant population of players) that can compare with SCII.
And that is ONLY because there is NOTHING out there! This genre is a desolate wasteland. And I'm not talking about RTS games in general. I am talking about the competitive RTS genre that was forged by the weight of just one game, whose successor fails to deliver the canvas we have waited to behold for so goddamned long.
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On January 12 2013 09:25 HawaiianPig wrote:
I know it's a little strange to spotlight a staff member's thread, but this is great and I think it's deserving.
5/5
nah it's good to do that. the reason they're staff in the first place is because they're really smart so feature away as long as it's deserved!
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I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said in your blogpost. Especially the point about the capacity of a player to express himself through the RTS medium. I definitely felt this way about Brood War, particularly with Savior, iloveoov, Nal_ra, and Bisu, where you could just "feel" and intuitively know that particular progamer is playing just by the subtle nuances you sense while viewing the match. It could be something as simple as the way he engages a small battle, place his structures or the timing of his expansions.
I'll just use savior as an example because he was the reason I went from a casual e-sports viewer to a TL.net refreshing fanatic. I think savior's builds exemplified this expressive quality the most. During his prime, I always got chills watching how ballsy he was with his "greedy" mass-expo builds in zvp. It was just amazing to see how little he invested in secure, static defenses, which any safe zerg player would've done. He never seemed paranoid that he would be punished by his greed. He just confidently went on taking the map as if it all rightfully his. And how he engaged battles with just the right number of units, never over-extending himself or just barely getting by. He always seemed to decisively win battles seamlessly with near-perfect unit placement and cool confidence as if he expected the battle to happen and he knew he would win. The point I'm trying to get at is that zergs emulated that sort of zvp playstyle but no one really executed it with savior's success or boldness at the time. Commentators would point at concrete things like inferior mechanics or shitty timing but it also just didn't "feel" like savior's play for indescribable reasons. I think it's that elusive x-factor that makes brood war such a deep game, where players seem to express themselves through the game beyond the simple mechanics that are programmed into it.
Unfortunately, I don't feel SC2 has reached this level of depth yet. I don't think that's necessarily a reflection of the game itself but like you mentioned in your post, the rapid growth of the e-sports scene. The oversaturation of leagues puts a lot of pressure on players to have a results-oriented mindset, which may cause them to go for more conservative builds. Who knows, maybe that'll change in a few years and hopefully this is just a phase.
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Starcraft 2 has lost pretty much all its appeal for me. I remember just a year ago when I was attending Barcrafts, paying for GSL tickets and getting excited about the game. But then I started playing Dota 2 and it just completely took over. For some reason I just find it far more fun and exciting for me and as much as I want to get into Starcraft 2, just none of it held any appeal to me anymore. Like at this point, I don't think i'd even get HOTS because I feel zero excitement for it.
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Thanks for sharing. The buzz for eSports really does get tiresome when it sacrifices our enjoyment. Great reminder that we're here to have fun ^^
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From what I've seen most of the "ESPORTS hype" has been forced upon the community from day 1 from the organizations that would most benefit from more money being pumped into competitive gaming. When Clutch yells "THIS IS ESPORTS", a lot of people might hold the misapprehension that he's expressing genuine passion towards games like SC2 or LoL-- but in reality it has everything to do with marketing the tournament and its sponsors. Like you mentioned in your OP, SC2 was taken on the road from day 1 before anyone knew how good (or stale) it would become. Teams and leagues were at each other's throats for attention and SC2 was thrust in the forefront because of it's unique position in the gaming community. I guess over time the games that a lot of people really enjoy will be the ones to draw the most attention (as you already see happening with the LoL/Dota scenes). Other games with smaller, cult-followings already have their niche but we don't really see them at the big tournaments. While I don't actively follow the other big ESport scenes the impressions that I get (and that you alluded to) are that they are not so prone to blindly "promoting ESPORTS" which is nice to hear. One can hope that with HOTS and eventually LOTV coming out that our SC2 scene has been brought down to Earth and we can once again get back to playing and watching something that we actually enjoy. But ultimately that all depends on how much of an improvement they are, because the premise that people will keep watching tournaments because "if you support ESPORTS it will eventually get SO GOOD!" is not going to work when so many grow jaded.
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the best part of this blog is how torte plugs his own threads in the first post.....lol
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EPT
