Love of the Game - Page 4

Lambertus

South Africa966 Posts

January 12 2013 21:22 GMT

#61

Thank you for that post. I agree in many things you say.

For me personally the start of the Proleague was important because it brought from my point of view something new.

Players and Teams approaching the game differently, new maps, a new competition in general.

I*m exicted like in the old days of BW about watching that game and what the players do with it!:-)

Heyoka

Katowice25012 Posts

January 12 2013 23:23 GMT

#62

On January 13 2013 00:12 Surili wrote:
I have to say that something has been nigling at me since reading this, that the negativity isn't all as bad as people say it is, that really there is a feedback loop that is making it worse than it is, like watching that grubby hype video that someone made the other day is awesome.

Or that i can watch sase or grubby or tyler or axslav or incontrol's stream, and know who it is by the builds they are doing, or in the case of tyler and sase just the way they click on things. Their precision is very recognisable to me, thanks to streaming and analysing their replays, it isn't just true of BW, it is true of SC2 too if you really care

Mostly I hope this doesn't come off as feeding that loop. My goal when I sat down was to just write some stuff about how cool it is when people compete in games (mostly SC2) and it kind of took on a life of its own.

I'm a simple man. I like games and want to share that people who also like games.

Dyme

Germany523 Posts

January 12 2013 23:47 GMT

#63

Reminds me of Gheed's "I hate esports"-blog. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=334009

IMLyte

Canada714 Posts

January 13 2013 00:01 GMT

#64

I can't agree more; in all the hustle'bustle of trying to make SC2 the greatest eSport, people have forgotten how eSports was founded... Love for the game.

LamaMitHut

Germany187 Posts

January 13 2013 00:04 GMT

#65

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 04 2012 19:06 LamaMitHut wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 04 2012 16:54 DamageControL wrote:

On May 04 2012 05:38 LamaMitHut wrote:

On May 04 2012 05:26 jeeeeohn wrote:

On May 04 2012 05:19 Clandrone wrote:
"While different opinions are welcome, please try to keep debate civil. Flaming is unacceptable on these forums, and ad hominem attacks are not appreciated."

Please tell that to Gheed, Empyrean, his entire blog is flaming those who put their blood, sweat, tears, time, and money into the esports scene. Warn him to show a little respect please. All I ask is equality.

This is the quintissential ESPORTS evangelical.

Here's a thought: Starcraft 2 is just a game.

Think about that for a moment, what that sentence means.

Just a game.

It's not a movement. It's not even a "scene." It's a video game that you play or watch primarily for fun.

I can't even fathom any other reason to play a game, or have interest in it in the first place. The whole thing just blows my mind.

I need to get off TeamLiquid for a while. Can a mod ban me for two weeks? (I actually need to focus on other things right now, and the above post is just one example why, besides being busy.) God bless everyone, have fun gl gg.

exactly this is the point, why gheeds OP is so absurd. why do you even CARE about the "esport movement", if sc2 is "just a game" for you?

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.

I do not hate e-sports. But I hate what e-sports has become. I do not discredit those who have put their work into events; nay, I celebrate them. Their effect is a sight to behold and has become something truly marvelous.

What I do hate is the evangelical rhetoric that surrounds the phrase e-sports. People have created an artificial dogma that permeates throughout the boards. There is an illusory ideal that can never be met, or even agreed upon. But this ideal that becomes an all-consuming blight. It blows up, crucifies, witch-hunts, and compunds upon itself, magnifying the slightest ills; it's demanded that casters be fired, players be released, and caused companies to contort their cultures and outlook in order to please the e-sports fanatics.

But none of this would be wrong if not for that fact that the phrase "e-sports" was not a sham. People decry the slightest problems as unprofessional. Being unprofessional will lead to less sponsors. Less sponsors will lead to the death of esports as we know it. That chain of causality fails to appreciate the complexity of sponsor decisions and indeed fails to appreciate the complexity of growing a new activity as a whole. In truth there are exactly zero people who know how to make e-sports mainstream. Perhaps it's this sterile, tame, dried out version of e-sports that will thrive and prosper. Perhaps not. I merely believe that we attach far too much importance to a phrase that ultimately promises so little; I don't know where this train ends but neither to the e-sports evangelisists.

You are totally right, that group of Esportologists can be pretty annoying, but i just can´t see where they are harming anyone. People like Idra, Naniwa, Huk or Stephano, the most beloved (or hated ^^) players we got, are not sterile at all. Players make manner mules, buildings, or let untis dance at the end of a game. Casters are using mature language, and encourage us to play funmaps/strats.

is he:

a boring person, just because he don´t say "gook" or "nigger" all the time?

is this "tame"?

is this song "dried out"?

i could post stuff like this for hours. =)

This was my answer in this blog. It is a little out of context, but i think you get my point. SC2 got an incredible community.

birchman

Sweden393 Posts

January 13 2013 00:39 GMT

#66

A good read. I agree with everything you wrote.

TheAppetizer

United States146 Posts

January 13 2013 00:41 GMT

#67

I agree; nothing is more exciting than seeing unconventional play work successfully, or an amazing display of skill. The drama surrounding the game is rather uninteresting to me.

Quakecomm

United States344 Posts

January 13 2013 01:02 GMT

#68

This is one of the best posts I've seen in a long time! I agree completely.

dcemuser

United States3248 Posts

January 13 2013 01:19 GMT

#69

As a person who has played less than 100 games of StarCraft since release but watched easily over 1000 hours of the game (at least 20-30 tournaments, catching almost every game), I have to say I really don't stick around for the drama, at least personally.

Maybe I'm an exception, but I really like the game, the players, and the casters, but I just can't play a game that I know I am bad at. I know I would get better with time, but my lack of skill in the game is a constant frustration and I just feel that watching it is all of the fun of playing it with having the added fun of the casters/interaction in live report threads.

Footler

United States560 Posts

January 13 2013 01:55 GMT

#70

I think what you wish the scene was about is still there but as with anything when a huge community develops anywhere it is going to be the idiots that speak the loudest and so we happen to see that the most but there are still groups of people here for the love of the game and not the drama. Just like with film, the loud idiots are gossiping about the latest affair of XYZ actor but there are others that would prefer to discuss XYZ's acting methods or memorable moments.

Qwyn

United States2779 Posts

January 13 2013 05:03 GMT

#71

On January 12 2013 19:06 heyoka wrote:

Show nested quote +

The Tetris doc is Ecstasy of Order (I watched it on Hulu, maybe you can too since you're in America) and the Missile Command movie is called High Score. I also enjoy Chasing Ghosts (follows the same people as King of Kong but more broad info), Beyond The Game (WCG thing on Grubby and Sky in WC3), Frag (about FPS games and CPL - this one is particularly hilarious as it has a lot of now current SC2 commentators in their earlier days), the StarCraft WCG 2005 National Geographic piece (follows Xellos in a WCG run - done by Storyteller, a member of TL), and I Got Next (about fighting games). I even have a copy of MTV True Life - I'm a Gamer on an old hard drive which is amusing enough to watch every so often but it's largely about guys who don't compete. There is a Mike Ross documentary too that is good but I don't remember the name of.

The books I've read off the top of my head are Master of Doom, Dungeons and Dreamers, and I'm currently reading Raising the Stakes. The first two are only tangentially related to competitions but have large sections describing early the early FPS scene but the latter is specifically esports driven. It's good so far but I'm only a few pages in.

Show nested quote +

On January 12 2013 12:54 Qwyn wrote:
My issue is this: there's nothing else.

There is NO RTS game that can compete with SCII in the current market (except BW). And somewhere down the line, you've got to stop using a 14 year old game as an example in the MODERN DAY gaming market. It is only a TESTAMENT to BW's quality that it is still a shining example of what an RTS game should be even while its successor is trying (and failing) to choke it out.

There needs to be competition. But no one is stepping up to the plate.

My love is for this genre. I portion only a bit out to this game. The rest is for the players, who work very hard at improving every day. Meanwhile, the developers do a shit job of making this game the PREMIERE competitive game (something that they proclaimed was one of their design goals so long ago).

These players deserve so much more than what they have. Most of them sacrifice EVERYTHING to play this game competitively. They are artists...and their canvas is shabby, warped and ragged.

Why do you think the deep, profound passion for the game is lacking. Why does it feel forced? Why is it so hard to find? Because this game is so much less than it could be. You can sidestep that fact all you want. It's something that was very, very painful for me to realize (especially since I spent so much of my life in this genre). Why the fuck do you think there are so many complaint threads that have popped up in the past few months? The community hasn't just gone to shit. We're all very passionate people with a love for the complexity of the competitive RTS game. And while some are satisfied with less, those who are complaining openly want this game to be so much more than it could be. Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there right now (with a thriving, vibrant population of players) that can compare with SCII.

And that is ONLY because there is NOTHING out there! This genre is a desolate wasteland. And I'm not talking about RTS games in general. I am talking about the competitive RTS genre that was forged by the weight of just one game, whose successor fails to deliver the canvas we have waited to behold for so goddamned long.

I've wrestled with this for a while and ultimately while I agree it's weird that there is no real competition in the genre, I still think SC2 is a great game. There are enough people out there who really love it for the weird intricacies that exist within the game to make me a believer that it has many of the qualities we attribute to the greatest of competitive events.

Show nested quote +

The juxtaposition between your post and signature is awesome. Well done.

You know what I love the most is the community <3.

It keeps me coming back again and again. And the fact that such a community can form around the game means that, even if it is not the game we've all been dreaming for - it's still enough to draw us all together.

And if a game can provide that, then it's a pretty damn good game.

Everything I write, I write out of passion. My previous post, and this one too.

Fuck yeah, TL <3.

EDIT: Also yeah, I PM'd him about that but he never responded lol. His sig is amazing.

Brindled

United States508 Posts

January 13 2013 05:05 GMT

#72

I'm so glad someone just came out and said it directly in a more articulate way than I could have.
5/5

SOB_Maj_Brian

United States522 Posts

January 13 2013 07:13 GMT

#73

I feel BW had more strategic variety and higher APM requirements, which led to a variety of styles and thus better games and more memorable players. Because a player couldn't do everything, sometimes players got to be known for focusing on specific aspects of the game. For instance, Best was considered a great macro player b/c he took more of his APM to focus on this aspect of the game (that was his uniqueness) and thus he could have more units at any one time (but this advantage would be negated in PvT by running half his stuff into mines). Boxer, in his later years knew he had lower APM, so he relied on sneaky tactics (which are more highly rewarded in BW). Bisu could micro his zealots and probes better than anyone and do early game harass second to none. Even stale matchups where build orders were pretty predicitable and thus less variety like say ZvZ (lings mutas scourge) , the matchup was so APM intensive and could come down to a single drown or a single scourge, it made it exciting.

Also BW maps allowed players to do unique strategies that were dependent on the map. For instance, you could proxy the main of Blue Storm, or do funny bunker rushes on specific maps, other maps allowed gimmicky cannon rushes, other maps allowed you to hide a ghost a nuke a certain spot (there was a famous game where the map distributed to the players and the actual map were not the same and omitted this spot). All the maps where you had to glitch a worker through a temple had the potential for shenanigans. I remember a game on Destination, SkyHigh v. Savior, ace match and Skyhigh does a fake bunker rush, followed up by landing a barracks in the back of the main. I have not seen that level of creativity in SC2 lately, and its sad. Also end game armies differed based on the maps, (P could go carriers or arbiters, or even rarely dark archon) (Z could go ultra/ling/defiler or if an air map devourer/guardian) (in TvZ, T could go battleships, mech or bio). There were units that were rarely used (like dark archon), which when used made the game exciting. SC2 saddens me

because it seems to play out very predictably.

MountainDewJunkie

United States10341 Posts

January 13 2013 07:50 GMT

#74

Alright fine. I mean it's just a super "FOR ESPORTS" kind of post. You make it sound like everything is coming up roses, citing accelerated growth. But surely we can't ignore some of the problems of the scene. Accelerated growth? What about the frequent disbanding of major teams? There are an alarming number of quality players who remain teamless, and you get the feeling the list only gets longer. Even one of the most established teams, TSL, became another victim. And with all the players sitting unsigned, doesn't it seem that the supply of players is exceeding demand? Doesn't sound like growth to me. In addition, there is a ceiling for major tournaments. After one SC2 season, the OSL is kind of on a mini-hiatus, expected to return, but also due to the fact that in Korea, LoL is still king.

In a way SC2's unpopularity in korea has been a good thing for the rest of the world. Korean pros are heading to foreign teams, which benefits them financially and gets the fans excited to have someone of that caliber on a team they root for. However many teams can't afford major pickups compared to the financial, and community, juggernauts TeamLiquid and EG. Another reason why we see so many players without a home.

We don't need more people who like SC2 because it's the big thing, we need people who enjoy it for what it is and stay because they share an interest and will grow that passion.

So we shouldn't like it because it's big and profitable, but we should enjoy it so we can make it bigger and more profitable.

You say the community wastes too much time complaining about crap like Jessica (does, and about her even). One reason, other than the nature of the average consumer, people complain about drama and whatever is because 1) it sells, and 2) the scene has such an overabundance of games and tournaments, that the value and entertainment value of a single game goes down. A new strategy is amazing. After the thousandth time? It's okay, lost quite a bit of luster... Wow Life win a GSL, but there's like 5 a year so whoopie... Oh wait, Destiny showed his dick? Holy fuck! Outrage! Esports! And don't ignore the large quantities of fans that are drawn in if not solely due to controversy, or controversial players. There are quite a few people who bank on this being their only interesting aspect in SC2. You have to take the good with the bad in the scene. There's lately been this trend of "scene cleansing," a call to weed out fans and players of this type, thus leaving those who are truly pure of heart and love the game, were enough to actually exist.

Major tournaments exist to profit off of fans, and not for love of esports or whatever. It's a business, not a lifestyle.

If esports were a painting, StarCraft would be the largest canvas with the brightest colors sitting next to it, just waiting to be turned into a masterpiece of gigantic proportions.

This is incorrect, if you're implying that the canvas is currently blank. The SC2 canvas has been slathered with all kinds of colors the last 2 years, and when we stand back we have different opinions about the overall product we see. Such is the subjectivity of art. Maybe you're going for the whole, "Let's paint the sc2 canvas to make it beautiful" call to action. Maybe we want to cover up those muddied corners we don't want to see. Like the edrama, the money, those only looking to benefit themselves, the unemployed players, and constant problem of balance. Can we really make this all go away?

Esports is a magical and amazing thing. We're taking the most whimsical of pastimes and seeing what happens when you introduce an arena to the equation. Why did it become about anything more? Play for the love. Develop the passion. Cherish the game, inside and out.

This is just cheesy. Esports cheesy. There's no magic here! Companies make games to make money. Pro players play to make money. Tournaments are thrown to make money. It is not about something more. It's a profitable pastime, for some. A hobby, for many others. But certainly not an industry warranting the word "whimsical."

Too_MuchZerg

Finland2818 Posts

January 13 2013 08:26 GMT

#75

Heck, Watching SC2 tournaments like GSL etc is weird. Code S players lose easily to Code A players and vice versa. So its skill cap is almost reached and there is not really "real" S-class player. Most games are BO3.

BW watching top class players playing BO1 and if they lose people are already considering that player is slumping etc. Only BO1 but top players maintained their edge/skill still. There was clear favorites and they usually hold up (instead of SC2 GSL games) and if they lost everybody praised opponent (whether for cheesing hardcore, perfect timing, other miracle or just player reaching that skill level).

So for short, Seeing GSL top tier protoss playing vs weaker protoss doesn't mean he is going to win almost every time but when watching BW you know better player wins almost every time.

I miss BW.

Diabulus

Bolivia105 Posts

January 13 2013 09:19 GMT

#76

This is all true, I LOVE sc2, and it is also true that it hasn't gone through its adolescence yet, but there are some who just want SC2 to grow up too fast, with the new expansion coming out HotS, this literally is like the chemicals that they put on food to make it grow faster, have more vibrant color, but take away its flavor. Looks yummy, looks big, looks juicy, but when you take a bite out of it, it leaves you disappointed, and knowing you would've liked the one that was naturally grown.

Arisen

United States2382 Posts

January 13 2013 15:37 GMT

#77

Thanks for the post. I've thought this for a long time as well. Great threads about the game get buried really fast because everyone wants to talk about esports and it annoys me. I hope things turn around

arcHoniC

United States141 Posts

January 14 2013 01:22 GMT

#78

Just in time for the HotS release ^^

I think we definitely take this game for granted, I know I do. And to truely discover its depth takes a lot of work and passion. Looking forward to being passionate in 2013 with WoL and HotS.

GeneralSnoop

United States142 Posts

January 14 2013 04:49 GMT

#79

I agree. I didn't come to TL because some tournament had great casting, a huge prize pool, and "big name" players.

I came to TL because I liked Starcraft. Thats it. Eventually I began watching the tournaments and got to know all the players and became interested in player signings and other things but......when it comes down to it, the reason I came here, and the reason I am still here, is because I love Starcraft and enjoy communing with people who share my little niche of interests.

E.H Eager

United States227 Posts

January 14 2013 05:47 GMT

#80

Totally agree with everything you said. Starcraft is a game, and an amazing game at that. Games are meant to be enjoyed and I think a lot of people sometimes forget that. I know I do.

5/5

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