• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:31
CEST 11:31
KST 18:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27
Community News
Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer2Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey. Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 33947 users

The Problem with Starcraft 2's Spectators

Blogs > Vogue
Post a Reply
Vogue
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States98 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 02:44:33
December 22 2012 02:34 GMT
#1
[image loading]




Take a look at the image above. We have four ongoing streams this evening. A recap of IEM's great moments, a rebroadcast of a PPV event with top tier koreans playing, an amateur tournament's finals, and a cannon rushing stream.

If I had asked you to take those four events and rank them in how you'd think they'd have viewers, I doubt that many people would say that a cannon rusher should have more viewers than a tournament, albeit a rebroadcast, of some of the best players in the world. But the truth is that not only is that true, there are FOUR TIMES as many people watching a cannon rusher than there are watching the best players in the world play for money, with a paid crew in a studio casting.

The biggest issue with Starcraft as a specator e-sport is not the balance of the game or the need for LAN or anything like that. It's that nobody has any idea what they are watching. The average Starcraft 2 viewer either cannot tell the difference between high level play and simple master league play, or is more amused by a victory screen appearing more often than not.

In fact, not only is the stream that is currently beating out DRG, Flash, Leenock and Life featuring someone that intentionally attempts to misguide people into thinking that he is GM on NA (he received GM on SEA, once. In fact, the image he posted as his thumbnail for his stream isn't even him). It's a person that doesn't understand Starcraft past a low masters level. This can't be said to even be an issue where the broadcaster is entertaining, like MaximusBlack or some other kind of personality, no. This guy's interaction with the stream is minimal. His webcam is of bad quality, he hardly talks, and he mumbles constantly. So why do people watch? Why are people watching this guy over Flash and DRG?

Because people have NO idea what they are watching. The types of low level cannon rushes that Weedamins executes could never put him past the first round of an MLG. His followups are painfully slow and have no intent. But the spectator has no idea! They see him cannon rush the anonymous opponent and win, again and again and again (because the opponent is anywhere from bronze to low masters, and has no idea how to react to a cannon rush) and they assume that he is a good player! A person watching Weedamins stream is almost always a single click from watching beautiful play from a stream on the sidebar, but they choose to stay.

Starcraft 2 is, by far, the most problematic game as an esport just for this reason. The general spectator takes a player that has a master league icon, victory text and the caster's favor as the only reasons to decide that a player is good. Nobody is able to judge the play. League of Legends can train idiots to understand what is actually occurring in the game with gold counters, tower counters and CS counters. Simply by nature, the game is far more easy to understand as a spectator than Starcraft 2, despite (in my opinion) being far less enjoyable and deep to both watch and play.

I write this not because I want to crucify the community for watching someone as terrible as Weedamins, but instead as a plea to educate your Starcraft watching friends. No, the guy that has more minerals banked is not always losing. No, just because he lost does not mean he is worse. No, just because that guy won does not make him a good player.




read: when I say nobody, I mean an insignificant number of people from an advertising perspective

**
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
December 22 2012 03:20 GMT
#2
I watch Starcraft for entertainment. A guy cannon rushing is much more entertaining than some boring casters I don't like casting games I've already seen.
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
December 22 2012 03:24 GMT
#3
Yeah everyone, stop liking things I don't like!!!
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Mstring
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia510 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 03:27:55
December 22 2012 03:24 GMT
#4
I rarely watch any tournament streams because I don't enjoy them. Mostly I prefer to watch a lower level player who I can talk to in the chat at the same time. Watching a particular stream doesn't mean you have decided that they are "good", it just means you like watching the stream for whatever reason. People prefer different things. The only problem here is expecting others to like what you think they should like.

As another example, I like watching amateur car racing. Do I not know what I am watching simply because I'm not watching the fastest drivers in the most ridiculously expensive cars? Of course not. It's just my preference.
Disposition1989
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada270 Posts
December 22 2012 03:26 GMT
#5
You picked an extreme case of an off night of starcraft streaming. There is ONE featured, professional sc2 streamer at the moment and it's Cella. Perhaps because half of the most popular streamers are drunk/asleep at homestory cup? Friday night? etc etc etc.

I'll make up a number. Let's say...20k average sc2 viewers on a regular ass day. From what you've shown, about 5%, when given no other options (proleague had not started at the time of your screenshot), divided themselves among the leftovers of the streaming community. What percent of that 5% actually chose to watch those things? Or were they just there because they had no other choices? So, that's all I'm seeing from this analysis.

I know some people who stream games are youtube people and most of their viewers come from there. They might not know a damn thing about sc2 but one of their favourite youtube personalities are streaming themselves cannon rushing (random example), so...they tune in.

If none of the big dogs are streaming in League of Legends, I'll settle for a rerun because I like to listen to someone talk while I go to sleep or someone playing a guy I like. I don't care if he's a level 5 or 2k ELO. Some people like other things than loud noises made by bad casters, which most big sc2 tournaments have. Not to mention how stale the gameplay has been for like a year.

If you want to examine truly unfortunate streaming trend, take a look at the d3 streams on twitch. Every single one of them are doing item giveaways, stream marathons for....?, raffles, free this, free that for their beloved viewer counts...even more for their subscribers. Granted, the game is not competitive scene friendly until pvp comes out. And who knows, maybe not even then.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
December 22 2012 03:30 GMT
#6
So I'm guessing the much larger viewer counts for the IPTL rebroadcast, the HSC rebroadcast, the SPL, don't count?
Then again people should be watching Cella's stream anyways.

I think you're trying to quantify taste, though. People like a wide variety of things, and honestly if you can find any average spectator of most sports that can truly express a deep understanding of the intricacies of play and rule set, I'll be surprised. By your criteria, the WNBA should be far more popular than the NBA, because of very solid fundamental play.

Not that I can appreciate the real depth of pro play anyways - I enjoy watching players, and have some grasp on how the game is played, but I'd be lying if I said I could understand why the pro players are doing what they do in a meaningful way.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 07:43:35
December 22 2012 07:41 GMT
#7
I wouldn't watch any of the above, but if I was going to I'd probably go with the cannon rusher. Some amateur clan war and rebroadcasts aren't really must-watch starcraft.

The vast majority are watching SPL/Blizzard Cup anyway as they should be.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
munchmunch
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada789 Posts
December 22 2012 10:09 GMT
#8
I seriously doubt that most of the people watching the cannon-rushing stream think they are watching a really good player. So your example doesn't demonstrate that SC2 spectators can't tell good players from bad.

(The whole point of watching a cannon-rushing stream is simply for the vicarious enjoyment of watching someone lose to a cannon rush. It's fun at any level.)
Aelonius
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands432 Posts
December 22 2012 12:19 GMT
#9
The moment you attempt to force people to watch what you like, while you do not know them nor have any reason to, is the moment you should be sent to an mental institute. Worthless thread.
''The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.''—Ronald Reagan
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
December 22 2012 14:50 GMT
#10
nobody has any idea what they are watching. The average Starcraft 2 viewer either cannot tell the difference between high level play and simple master league play, or is more amused by a victory screen appearing more often than not.

Two problems:
- There is no "right" way of watching SC2, and you are not to decide what other people watch.
- Does it even matter??
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 15:01:37
December 22 2012 15:00 GMT
#11
I think there are three main reasons why more people would choose the cannon rusher over the others.

1. People generally don't like to watch events on rebroadcast.
2. People generally don't care about amateur events.
3. SC2 events are over-saturated as fuck.

I think three is the biggest reason, as people wouldn't care about the first two if they couldn't be so choosy. There's so many different tournaments and such going on ALL THE TIME that it doesn't matter if you miss them or not. On the other hand, watching someone cannon rush newbs is a bit of a novelty and it's almost always entertaining to watch people rage.
Moderator
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech68
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23718
Mong 573
actioN 353
Mini 267
Zeus 258
Leta 172
Sharp 140
JulyZerg 134
Killer 112
EffOrt 50
[ Show more ]
Movie 48
Rush 41
Barracks 26
Sacsri 20
sorry 16
ivOry 4
Dota 2
420jenkins461
XcaliburYe411
Fuzer 194
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1348
Stewie2K901
shoxiejesuss650
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0435
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor194
Other Games
ceh9643
Liquid`RaSZi359
crisheroes304
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream11948
Other Games
gamesdonequick557
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 47
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2109
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
1h 30m
Replay Cast
14h 30m
Replay Cast
1d
RSL Revival
1d
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
PiGosaur Monday
1d 14h
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
RSL Revival
4 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
SC Evo League
5 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-11
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.