EPTMass Lings in ZvP/ZvZ - Page 2
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:12 hellokitty[hk] wrote: But can they beat the nerf hammer? (If it does become popular) hard for blizz to nerf the basic unit of a race. this is partly why i think the marine has never been adjusted (iirc) back in terran's glorious days and people cried imba at marines..they just nerfed other parts of terran (like bunkers, depot required for rax, etc) and/or buffed other races to deal with them better. | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:15 udgnim wrote: is Life already sort of doing this? is he? that'd be AWESOME..i love what i've seen of his play..if anyone can point me to examples/vods i'd love to check em out! are you sure btw he's not transitioning away from lings into other stuff (broods or ultras usually) eventually tho? i mean stephano was having great success at BWC with going for quick 1-1 into quick 2-2 mass lings, but with lots of infestors and corruptors (doing that timing just when 2-2 hits), and then transitioning into broodlord/infestor....so certainly people have realized the strength of lings to a point..he's not the only one..but i think everyone i've seen never actually sticks with em for too long. need more macro hatches, more queens, and more lings running everywhere on the map imo~ | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:18 Aerisky wrote: This sounds very BW zergy, with the idea of ling surrounds and counterattacks everywhere. It's a far cry from true "god of war"-level BW zergy-swarmy strategies by virtue of game design, but I like it, even if it's necessarily almost exclusively a ling comp :D I suppose if the lings were somehow fungaled before a surround, you'd be completely screwed because the fungaled ones would block more lings from swarming in, but it will be difficult to have that kind of reaction time as you say. yes once the number of fungals and banes gets too high (maybe even with +1 attack on banes, which is unlikely tho when theyre giong roach), then i suspect mass lings may not work well. however one huge plus is how stupidly fast zerg bases die to mass lings..counterattacks are a massive threat. also: i dunno if youve noticed but lings, once they do reach the infestors..are kinda the best/easiest way to kill them..unlike any other zerg unit.. just make sure you have speedoverseeers to spot em! | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:14 Sinensis wrote: I couldn't think of any good Sc2 maps off the top of my head so I just went with Match Point as a strategic example. Ohhhh i get it.. and yeah this is exactly what i was thinking too about how to expand .. it's far away from both of your mains making it tough for them to want to commit an attack there, since then it'd be easy to counter their main base, and they cannot quickly base race on your own base. hopefully we'll start seeing more larger maps soon and this strategy will really fly | ||
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TroW
United States67 Posts
They would probably have to sink a ton of minerals into walling off and cannons, but combined with 1-2 sentries it would be insanely hard to bust a protoss with a mostly ling army on a map like Cloud Kingdom. It doesn't seem like just adding banes at this point would be an incredibly effective option either, as the forcefield/cannon/colossus or ff/cannon/storm would be nigh on unbreakable if executed properly. I can't imagine a world where mass upgraded ling, even on only 50 drones or something, could beat a protoss that turtled hard into a 4th base, got 3-3-3, and moved out with an army that has zealots, archons, sentries, high templar with storm, a few colossi, and a mothership. You could even vortex a large chunk of the lings if you waited for the energy. It seems almost inevitable that a broodlord/infestor switch would be required if you were unable to inflict huge damage earlier on in the game or deny their expansions continually, neither of which seem terribly easy given a certain style of play from the protoss player. Is the claim that this is a solid mid-game composition or are you suggesting that this will be a workable late-game army as well? | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:31 TroW wrote: Wouldn't this style be to some degree dependant on the protoss trying to move out and kill the zerg before amassing the ultimate ling-killing army? It seems like sound building placement with cannons, sentries, colossi, and/or high templar with storm would allow a protoss to keep slowly adding bases while not having to worry too much about counterattacks. They would probably have to sink a ton of minerals into walling off and cannons, but combined with 1-2 sentries it would be insanely hard to bust a protoss with a mostly ling army on a map like Cloud Kingdom. It doesn't seem like just adding banes at this point would be an incredibly effective option either, as the forcefield/cannon/colossus or ff/cannon/storm would be nigh on unbreakable if executed properly. I can't imagine a world where mass upgraded ling, even on only 50 drones or something, could beat a protoss that turtled hard into a 4th base, got 3-3-3, and moved out with an army that has zealots, archons, sentries, high templar with storm, a few colossi, and a mothership. You could even vortex a large chunk of the lings if you waited for the energy. It seems almost inevitable that a broodlord/infestor switch would be required if you unable to inflict huge damage earlier on in the game or deny their expansions continually, neither of which seem terribly easy given a certain style of play from the protoss player. Is the claim that this is a solid mid-game composition or are you suggesting that this will be a workable late-game army as well? If the protoss turtles on 2/3 base without trying to push out, zerg can literally take as many expos as they want in the mean time. Lings build fast and are low econ, there will be plenty of resources for extra drones and hatcheries. Zerglings are fast enough that every expo will be safe, and they also ensure the protoss can not leave their base for fear of massive counter attacks. The problems this build faces is vs a protoss with perfect micro; vs high level opponents, it's very difficult to trade cost effectively because of force fields. This is why I almost always build a spire as mutas are the only real option for sniping sentries while remaining mobile. Infestors are too slow to defend spread out expos WHILE keeping up the threat of counter attacks. Problems start to happen when the sentries are well protected and mutas have to be sacrificed. | ||
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Daitro
England31 Posts
Ling/bane counters are sooo underated in ZvP though, when a Protoss moves out you can just bust his blocking Pylon/Zealot and do a ton of damage. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
im not sure about ling only, but i imagine groups of lings everywhere waiting for runbys is the wave of the future. like you said, they kill so damn fast and hard to react properly them. two ling runbys on a third and main is crazy. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
I was in the bottom of master league at the time. I was convinced that some pro was going to figure it out and kick ass with 6 control group ling flanks and stuff like that. "the lord of the lings", I would call him. I made this post on the bnet forums in august 2011 you can micro your zerglings better. you can always micro your zerglings better. I'm waiting to see a zerg winning games purely on zergling micro, it'd be pretty boss. 6 control groups, perfect splits and surround, never taking unnecessary splash, and never having any wasted surface area. I'm waiting for the lord of the lings. very shortly afterwards stephano caught people's attention with win streaks of up to 60 games at the top of EU GM, and most of the time he was just doing troll builds with pure zergling, this was just shortly before his serious breakout at IPL3. when NP got nerfed i could no longer deal with colossus and stopped doing it against protoss and as I ranked higher, people could actually handle multiple ling counterattacks. As soon as terran started doing double e-bay builds it got much less dominant against them as well, but still more successfull than against protoss. terrans developping smarter building placement also really hurt me quite a lot. I used to kill PFs with lings no problem, but not anymore. but while i was doing this, it was the most fun I have ever had in SC2. while I was on this mass zergling spree, I made these videos: + Show Spoiler + I sure hope you are right, because I miss those days. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
ZvZ just because roach/bling is a really good counter to it, you don't even need infestors to deal with mass ling. If it is really only mass ling you can just do a ling/bane to kill him and if he tries a base trade block off your ramp - have banes on top and roaches blocking the ramp so he could never enter your main. With your force killing the zerg with roach/bane just don't waste banelings and I don't see a zerg doing this ever losing to a zerg who is only going zerglings. ZvP it's many factors. Forcefield, colossi, storm, chargelots (mass chargelots crush zerglings). Toss has many, many ways to beat mass zerglings. I would be very surprised if this ever became possible to go only zergling and win zvp/zvz. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On November 20 2012 17:26 Tobberoth wrote: The big problem with an all ling army is that they have some trouble taking down flying units. Nah that's not really one of the problems at all. zerglings are actually really good against an opponent who makes too much air. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
im thinking more and more that in zvz you can only open upgraded mass ling style for a while.. because if the zerg counters it just right with roach/infestor/bane turtleing, you can no longer rely only on lings, even w/ counterattacks/drops. You'll likely just have to use this style to gain an advantage (probably by denying their 3rd or splitting attacks on their main + 3rd)... so you can switch to something else, as some zergs have already been doing with infestors into ultras for example..or you could even switch to infestor/roach. maybe at later points you can suddenly switch back to mass lings if theyre once again weak to it, but you probably have to have something else to defend, such as infestor/spines. Mass infestor/ling could potentially work but it might be tougher than if you switched into another composition. I'm still really hopeful vs protoss tho! | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Because basically the only thing that gives me worse nightmares than mutas are lings (and maybe banelings). I lose 100% PvZ when they go ling-bane-muta and most of the games when they mass lings. I learned to love roaches so much because of that, they are just such a good sign the Zerg going to loose. I can't forcefield well enough for it to actually matter, the lings always squeeze somewhere I don't want them. And besides forcefields, there is nothing in the Protoss army that can anyhow force a fight with lings, they are just too fast. I am just Platinum, because I really suck. But I suck like a 10 times more against mass ling, because it is just so, so stupidly fast and everywhere. Against anything else, I can often win with half the APM of the oponent, but fighting lings is just about raw skill and that is something I don't have. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 21 2012 02:28 Zelniq wrote: yep the best way to punish a protoss who gets too air crazy is to bust their initial defense somehow then flood lings, void rays..and mutas are kinda poor at dealing with them too if theyre spread on 3 bases im thinking more and more that in zvz you can only open upgraded mass ling style for a while.. because if the zerg counters it just right with roach/infestor/bane turtleing, you can no longer rely only on lings, even w/ counterattacks/drops. You'll likely just have to use this style to gain an advantage (probably by denying their 3rd or splitting attacks on their main + 3rd)... so you can switch to something else, as some zergs have already been doing with infestors into ultras for example..or you could even switch to infestor/roach. maybe at later points you can suddenly switch back to mass lings if theyre once again weak to it, but you probably have to have something else to defend, such as infestor/spines. Mass infestor/ling could potentially work but it might be tougher than if you switched into another composition. I'm still really hopeful vs protoss tho! Life has already thought of that. Watch some of his games on Metropolis and Ohana.  | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 21 2012 02:46 CosmicSpiral wrote: I believe Dimaga, Vortix, and Life all have various permutations of this idea in their ZvP. Dimaga relies on pure zergling/baneling/corruptor in the midgame; Vortix gets very quick overlord speed and drop; Life has a +1/+1 drop timing and generally relies on zerglings until greater spire. None of them stick with pure lings all the way through. that's quite interesting.. I wonder how effective it has been for them, and if they also use mass lings with maybe bane/corrupor/infestor support, to stop that 3-base timing a lot of protosses are doing these days before Gspire kicks in. I guess stephano does use this with 2-2 lings/infestors/corruptors for that timing, often attacking and doing damage to the protoss rather than defensively, while transitioning into brood/infestor. I still think this mass 3-3 adrenalings with support is a strong lategame style though, at least one worth exploring further. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:15 udgnim wrote: is Life already sort of doing this? He only truly commits to such a style in ZvT, and it's so hard to replicate that I don't see it becoming standard for at least 2-3 years. He's tried it in ZvP and ZvZ with limited success. | ||
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