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United States7166 Posts
I think that someday, perhaps when the infestor's nerfed, people will really start using lings more..like a LOT of lings, as their core unit in lots of their games.
Quick rough draft notes as I don't have much time right now (and haven't fully fleshed everything out):
1. Zerglings are the scariest unit in the game~~ They're stronger than nearly every unit in the game (esp w/ adrenal), are super cheap/cost no gas, insanely fast (and on creep, the fastest unit in the game.. so fast that it's often not easy to react to them in time properly especially if you weren't watching your army already, and before you know it you're surrounded by em), build faster than any other zerg unit by a considerable amount (combine this with their super speed on creep, makes this the quickest re-max after battle --> spring back into action you can do, another reason why they're scary), and just have so much untapped potential. Problems occur when they cannot get proper surface area to surround their targets, and splash can be an issue. Possible solutions below..
2. For ZvZ: No, it's not an early +1/+1 mass ling off of 3-4 hatch into +2/+2, infestor/spine into hive/ultra tech like you see on some rare occasion.. but it does start the same way.
3. Yes, the general idea that applies to both my ZvZ and ZvP idea is that you don't transition out of lings once they seem to be a bad idea to continue to focus on. It's that you keep making them...and keep making them, upgrade them to 3-3/adrenal asap and only if absolutely necessary do you get some support for them (particularly ZvP, more on that later!)
4. The 2nd main important part is just how you use them. This is highly situational, but basically some important points are, only engage if you can surround the entire army, strong counterattack potential, very quick razing of entire bases, excellent flanks/surrounds, groups of lings spread out all around the map and in multiple control groups, base trade scenarios especially zvz which is a really really strong, albeit unconventional, way to win. EDIT: And far expos go really really well with this...not only are lings already spread out into groups all around the map but they're very mobile, and youcan sac far expos and put enemies in uncomfortable counterattack/base trade scenarios if they invest a lot into killing em.. And did I mention how cheap lings are?! no gas, you only need a few geysers for upgradess for the most part..unless you need bane support/corruptor support (explained below in [5]). ofc you need a bunch of extra macro hatches as you get more bases..
5. For ZvP there are 3-ish major problems: Force Fields, +3 attack Colossi (or large numbers of them), and Psi Storm. Assuming the protoss has goood force fields, and even tho you can often make them waste a lot of energy while they push across the map, you will have to rely on baneling drops to take them out. Fungal is definitely helpful support for skybanes and for now (before D.Kim makes psionic units immune to fungal~~), for sentries as well, but I don't plan on getting too many infestors (WOW no mass infestor?! yes I am quite insane/stupid!?). Sure stalkers can kite em easily but the sentries are too slow for overlords and will die. Mass lings will kill every other protoss ground unit in the game easily. Archons are a joke, not only do they not benefit from any +armor upgrades (because theyre almost all Shields), meaning each attack upgrade on lings rips em to shreds, but also when you have 140+ lings, 1 shotting 1 ling and hurting 4 more isn't a big deal. However vs mass chargelot/archon you absolutely need a full surround and baneling support are probably a must in some cases to clear zealots for the surround.
[5 continued] As for colossi, it's true that once you get +3 attack they 1 shot even 3-3 lings, and so you really have no other choice but to get a number of Corruptors, but that's fine cus they are excellent at suicide-killing them before a battle. 9 I think is the magic number to 2 shot a colossus, and Corruption makes a big difference vs colossi, always use it asap. Note that the strength of the colossi is not their attack, believe it or not, but that they unit-walk over their army and lings cannot touch em until nearly everything else is dead. Sometimes sky banelings can really alleviate this issue as well! Sky banes are pretty decent vs colossi too, and vs most other ground as well, will need to investigate what the right mixtures are further. Oh and when the lings can actually attack the colossi, even +3 colossi aren't really too big a problem for them. Psi Storm, I'm not entirely sure yet how this exactly plays out, but same as sentries you can baneling drop their slow asses, and I think that may be enough to deal with them, but they are certainly a threat.
--oh and creep spread never hurts! get that 1 queen making only tumors all game long in ZvP early on!
--sure early zvp attacks are deadly, such as the dreaded 2 base immortal timing. i think however you can actually get baneling drop just in time for it tho, if you start lair at around 6:00 to 6:30. Sky banelings = dead sentries = lings clean rest up with +1 armor (not sure if you can squeeze in +1 attack too)
Much and more to write and think about, will update later as i figure things out!
Please feel free to point out any concerns or how it won't work because of X, Y, Z...this is a work in progress and I want feedback and I want to break it.. for science.
note: i could be wrong w/ some parts of this idea maybe, (maybe zvz?), who knows maybe proper walling + many banes + several fungals + roaches will shut all possible avenues for example..but damn they are certainly effective for a lot longer, and in a lot more situations than I think most zergs give em credit for in ZvZ, at the least.
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If this was sc2 strat you'd have to provide rank, profile, and replays
but it's blogs so its k
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'd be interested to see some reps Zelniq
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United States7166 Posts
yeah Thienan567..I expect most people these days haven't heard of me.. I've dropped off the radar for a number of reasons lately but I've been around for a long time. also it may be relevant to point out that I predicted a number of zerg trends long before they got popular..
copy pasting something I wrote before..but was too embarrassed to post it (so why post it now? i dont know..)
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[1] First week of SC2 WoL beta's release, back when everyone was just discovering just how broken roaches were (1 supply, 2 armor lolol), and everyone was going roach/hydra (hydras were awesome then), I discovered the glorious muta-ling-bane composition vs Terran. This is how I first caught the eye of, and friended QXC actually, back when Root was just about to form. It took a really long while for them to be nerfed to this certain point where they were clearly, from my perspective, a worse choice than muta/ling/bane. I remember in particular telling Idra and Artosis at around this time that muta-ling-bane was the answer to terran (who at the time were becoming the strongest race), but they didn't listen. Only until the Koreans started to figure out how to use this comp, did the rest of the world start to copy and use it.
[2] At one point during WoL Beta, before marines were discovered to actually be good (but they were already good!), mutalisks were a problem for terran and thors didn't have splash anti-air. So Blizzard patched in their splash attack (that lasted to this day), and thors became a pretty popular unit especially vs mutas, and zergs all around stopped massing mutas vs thors. I however figured out muta-magic-boxing almost immediately and posted how to magic-box mutas a couple days after the patch.. However people still didn't use/know about it for 3 months, until this thread came out and surprised everyone.
[3] And back when every single zerg was finally going Muta/Ling/Bane, and having decent success with it, but a few terrans had just started to figure out how good marine splitting was vs it..I eventually figured out how effective dual upgraded masssss lings + infestors, into Hive tech was. The upgraded lings dealt well with the marine-splitting issue as it just creates more surface area for the lings, and Fungal was a great response to clumped marines. I was using it a while, told mb a few friends but didn't notice anyone using it as Muta-Ling-Bane was still 'good enough' at winning. Eventually however, every terran was getting good at marine splitting to the point that it was getting tough to win with just muta/ling/bane and somewhere around this time, Stephano, who was completely unknown to the world, showed up on the radar of I believe CatZ and was showing the exact same upgraded ling/infestor/hive style, with similar timings and usage as I'd figured out. I was so excited, who was this player who thought like me.. everyone including myself soon found out just how good this Frenchman would be.
there are maybe a couple more examples that i am forgetting at the moment..
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United States7166 Posts
I will definitely post reps when I can get to try it out, but may be some days before I get a chance to.
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i remember you zelniq, but im still skeptical. What makes you think pros haven't experimented with mass ling timings already, and citing baneling bombs as a counter to sentry immortal all-in seems farfetched.
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I for one know who your are and am listening :D
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United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 12:50 m3rciless wrote:
i remember you zelniq, but im still skeptical. What makes you think pros haven't experimented with mass ling timings already, and citing baneling bombs as a counter to sentry immortal all-in seems farfetched.
Yes, maybe they (pros) already have..
And I'm pretty sure that baneling bombs will work vs it, but there is some possibility that, like other 'counters' to sentryimmortal 2 base timings, you may need to know/suspect/guess ahead of time that theyre going to do that allin, and it's possible that doing so may leave yourself too weak if they don't do it. but baneling drops aren't exactly the worst thing to have vs a P taking a quick 3rd..they can sometimes catch probe lines, or at least force em to run a whole bunch..very map dependent tho, or you can just do a baneling drop attack on their mostly sentry-defense @ their 3rd, then swell lings?
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How can you possibly fight zealot/archon cost effectively? Banelings will certainly help but that doesn't really change the picture: you don't have enough surface area to engage the way you need to, with 3-4 lings hitting each zealot that is attacking back. The archon splash will just amplify your problems by giving zealots the ability to 2shot lings even with an upgrade deficiency.
About baneling bombs vs immortal/sentry... I have no idea but is it possible that baneling nest + drops could be included in a build that is front-loaded to beat that strategy but can do mineral line harass to make up the deficit if they don't go sentry immo?
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United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 13:07 EatThePath wrote:
How can you possibly fight zealot/archon cost effectively? Banelings will certainly help but that doesn't really change the picture: you don't have enough surface area to engage the way you need to, with 3-4 lings hitting each zealot that is attacking back. The archon splash will just amplify your problems by giving zealots the ability to 2shot lings even with an upgrade deficiency.
About baneling bombs vs immortal/sentry... I have no idea but is it possible that baneling nest + drops could be included in a build that is front-loaded to beat that strategy but can do mineral line harass to make up the deficit if they don't go sentry immo?
I had similar concerns about chargelot/archons too at first..until some tests in unit tester showed that as long as you get a surround, which yes you can do in open areas, they are definitely doable with bane support..the banelings clear a ton ofzealots and you should be able to surround.
As for the comment about it being possible to go baneling drop but then they don't immortal sentry all-in and you go drop their mineral lines..one idea is to simultaneously drop both their mineral lines while you also drop @ their warping-in 3rd or new 3rd, right on the sentries, then engage the army with lings. Even top pros would sweat a little when they have to pull both probe lines and also micro their sentries/army/force fields. And you don't need to go all-in necessarily, but at least it should mitigate the loss you took for rushing to bane drop, as you get your econ in swing and get more hatches/bases/upgrades.
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On November 20 2012 13:25 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 13:07 EatThePath wrote:
How can you possibly fight zealot/archon cost effectively? Banelings will certainly help but that doesn't really change the picture: you don't have enough surface area to engage the way you need to, with 3-4 lings hitting each zealot that is attacking back. The archon splash will just amplify your problems by giving zealots the ability to 2shot lings even with an upgrade deficiency.
About baneling bombs vs immortal/sentry... I have no idea but is it possible that baneling nest + drops could be included in a build that is front-loaded to beat that strategy but can do mineral line harass to make up the deficit if they don't go sentry immo? I had similar concerns about chargelot/archons too at first..until some tests in unit tester showed that as long as you get a surround, which yes you can do in open areas, they are definitely doable with bane support..the banelings clear a ton ofzealots and you should be able to surround. As for the comment about it being possible to go baneling drop but then they don't immortal sentry all-in and you go drop their mineral lines..one idea is to simultaneously drop both their mineral lines while you also drop @ their warping-in 3rd or new 3rd, right on the sentries, then engage the army with lings. Even top pros would sweat a little when they have to pull both probe lines and also micro their sentries/army/force fields. And you don't need to go all-in necessarily, but at least it should mitigate the loss you took for rushing to bane drop, as you get your econ in swing and get more hatches/bases/upgrades.
Yeah, that is exactly how I was thinking, seems quite scary.
I guess I'll have to play in the unit tester to convince myself about one way or another about zealot/archon. Seems like the positioning / micro could be really fun if the metagame turned that way. 
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United States7166 Posts
yeah the thing I LOVE about this strategy is how fun it is~!
lings spread out EVERYWHERE on the map, several binded control groups of lings to do surrounds/flanks, kill reinforcement lines, attack expos/bases/counter, did i mention focusing very hard on timing / positioning your surround/flanks (without proper scouting constantly of their current army position this can be tough).. some of this is very reminiscent of Broodwar. Ah... I miss my cracklings. Lol can you imagine cracklings in SC2 holy shi.. (adrenal in brood war was way stronger than adrenal in sc2 is. this is probably intentional as blizz realized how good auto-surround ai is + spawn larva means a ton of overpowered zerglings heh.)\\
But it's ok~~ 3-3 adrenalings in sc2 rip up bases quite quickly too
For a long time now, i've kinda missed having many opportunities to focus on micro with zerg, it's not like terran/protoss..this brings some more of this back I think.
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I think this style works best with some kind of gas dump unit, I like muta/corruptor the best because spire tech scales well0. Zerglings, especially huge masses of them, give insane map control so you will always have access to as many expos as you can take. No reason not to take advantage of the huge amount of gas you're capable of having.
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Whenever a zerg goes mass ling against me in PvZ they win 99% of the time. I'm simply not fast at forcefielding so combined with my poor map presence they zerglings get on my army faster than I can even realize/react. I love whenever zergs go for roach style plays, my playstyle definitely suits it better and I win more games that way.
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United States7166 Posts
oh yea i played around with the idea of getting a spire almost always vs protoss, and making just some mutas, just to put the fear of the muta in them and force them to worry about mass muta/ling style. sounds decent, then yuo switch to heavy ling with corruptor support and fast 3-3/adrenal. ideally with your mutas/overseers you deny their scouting of your tech switch away from mutas too
of course btw mass muta will go with this sort of style too, sorta making a hybrid-strategy with the one above, and the typical mass muta style of play... with baneling support sometimes for defense mostly, and fungal maybe too
and yea infestor support definitely can help but i'd rather lean away from depending on them too much if at all possible...but they are certainly very good support, all 3 of their spells go well together (neuraling colossi/archons mb too)
On November 20 2012 13:57 PolskaGora wrote:
Whenever a zerg goes mass ling against me in PvZ they win 99% of the time. I'm simply not fast at forcefielding so combined with my poor map presence they zerglings get on my army faster than I can even realize/react. I love whenever zergs go for roach style plays, my playstyle definitely suits it better and I win more games that way.
thanks for reminding me how scary/difficult it is to react to the speed of the lings..yet another great benefit of em. edited in stuff to the OP now
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On November 20 2012 13:59 Zelniq wrote:oh yea i played around with the idea of getting a spire almost always vs protoss, and making just some mutas, just to put the fear of the muta in them and force them to worry about mass muta/ling style. sounds decent, then yuo switch to heavy ling with corruptor support and fast 3-3/adrenal. ideally with your mutas/overseers you deny their scouting of your tech switch away from mutas too of course btw mass muta will go with this sort of style too, sorta making a hybrid-strategy with the one above, and the typical mass muta style of play... with baneling support sometimes for defense mostly, and fungal maybe too and yea infestor support definitely can help but i'd rather lean away from depending on them too much if at all possible...but they are certainly very good support, all 3 of their spells go well together (neuraling colossi/archons mb too) Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 13:57 PolskaGora wrote:
Whenever a zerg goes mass ling against me in PvZ they win 99% of the time. I'm simply not fast at forcefielding so combined with my poor map presence they zerglings get on my army faster than I can even realize/react. I love whenever zergs go for roach style plays, my playstyle definitely suits it better and I win more games that way. thanks for reminding me how scary/difficult it is to react to the speed of the lings..yet another great benefit of em. especially on creep, they are the fastest unit in the game, even faster than hellions.
I've been playing this style vs every race (not at pro level, mind you) for a long time. I don't have any specific timings but the jist of it is:
1. Early expo
2. Mass lings
3. Take 3rd at furthest expo from opponent's main
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jZoYs.jpg)
(If Match Point were a Sc2 map, this is how I would expand)
4. More lings; spire
5. Expo
6. Repeat steps 4-5.
Need at least 5 base for double spire.
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This is the shit. I've been experimenting with mass ling for a long time now and it's great.
Definitely have to get a 4th hatch WAAAAAY sooner than if you were doing standard, and a 5th hatch as well.
I feel like you can afford to do so b/c of less gas.
Of course this style also goes really well with mass muta, which is my preferred style of play in ZvP. For ZvZ as long as the roach exists I'm not sure...in order to make it work I feel like you'd definitely have to hit several timings before infestors to capitalize on your advantage.
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But can they beat the nerf hammer? (If it does become popular)
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United States7166 Posts
On November 20 2012 14:08 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 13:59 Zelniq wrote:oh yea i played around with the idea of getting a spire almost always vs protoss, and making just some mutas, just to put the fear of the muta in them and force them to worry about mass muta/ling style. sounds decent, then yuo switch to heavy ling with corruptor support and fast 3-3/adrenal. ideally with your mutas/overseers you deny their scouting of your tech switch away from mutas too of course btw mass muta will go with this sort of style too, sorta making a hybrid-strategy with the one above, and the typical mass muta style of play... with baneling support sometimes for defense mostly, and fungal maybe too and yea infestor support definitely can help but i'd rather lean away from depending on them too much if at all possible...but they are certainly very good support, all 3 of their spells go well together (neuraling colossi/archons mb too) On November 20 2012 13:57 PolskaGora wrote:
Whenever a zerg goes mass ling against me in PvZ they win 99% of the time. I'm simply not fast at forcefielding so combined with my poor map presence they zerglings get on my army faster than I can even realize/react. I love whenever zergs go for roach style plays, my playstyle definitely suits it better and I win more games that way. thanks for reminding me how scary/difficult it is to react to the speed of the lings..yet another great benefit of em. especially on creep, they are the fastest unit in the game, even faster than hellions. I've been playing this style vs every race (not at pro level, mind you) for a long time. I don't have any specific timings but the jist of it is: 1. Early expo 2. Mass lings 3. Take 3rd at furthest expo from opponent's main (If Match Point were a Sc2 map, this is how I would expand) 4. More lings; spire 5. Expo 6. Repeat steps 4-5.
wait..that's the bw map I enjoyed watching/playing so many games of..are you talking about BW here?  my thread's on sc2...
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I couldn't think of any good Sc2 maps off the top of my head so I just went with Match Point as a strategic example.
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EPT
