• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:07
CET 15:07
KST 23:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA14
StarCraft 2
General
SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? Data analysis on 70 million replays soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1897 users

Thoughts on Morrow's Macro Mech - my MMM for HotS

Blogs > Treehead
Post a Reply
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
October 23 2012 19:17 GMT
#1
I’ve been watching MorroW’s stream for some time, and he’s been doing a variety of things. Yet most of his play in TvP that I’d seen so far was centered more around the early game (perhaps it’s just been bad luck). I’ve seen a lot of him opening with Widow mines and pressing them to his opponent’s base early. Last night I saw something new – something which got me excited.

He was playing against NShoSeo (better known as “San”), who opened up with a 3-gate pressure/contain build with the Mothership Core. MorroW opened with a pretty early in-base CC (after taking gas) and somewhere in there built a factory or two. With two early bunkers, he held until tanks – and once tanks were out, that allowed him to be increasingly more aggressive with his Widow mine placement. Most notably, though, is that he built his third CC before he cleared out his natural (his second OC was still in base when he started his third! Can he get away with that?)

San, whose natural was blocked during the 3-gate pressure, had a Nexus building before Morrow was able to drive off San’s forces, and the game kicked into macro mode. Morrow was ahead economically, of that there is little doubt – but he didn’t rush his advantage. He went almost entirely tank/hellion with a handful of Vikings and a smattering of ghosts (and no thors), and therefore any reasonable approach he could make needed to be wary of being caught out of position. So instead, he built up OCs, killed off some of his SCVs and remaxed (much like bio does).

When he finally pushed San’s fourth, I’m fairly confident they were both maxed (or close) – and San’s army was one that would likely have crushed WoL mech. It was a small number of Stalkers, a ton of Immortals (8? 10?) a good number of archons and the rest zealots. In short, he had exactly the ground army a protoss would want to have against mech. I didn’t see more than a couple EMPs (though maybe I missed them) and therefore a lot of Immortal shields could be heard during the fighting, and San was able to warp in right at the point of engagement. I was sure that he’d push MorroW back. But MorroW cleaned it up. He still had maybe half his tanks remaining when San was forced to take his half dozen remaining units back to his natural to regroup.

The game ended shortly thereafter.

Obviously, I don’t have a video to link of this (it was something I saw on his stream), but here is another mech game to watch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370725&currentpage=16#313).
Unfortunately, White-Ra takes this one. But the reason had little to do with MorroW’s army strength, and more to do with the fact that he did less good of a job forcing the direct engagement, White-Ra was able to engage favorably a couple of times, and the map itself was more open (and therefore, direct engagements are harder to force). White-Ra’s composition was a lot less countery than San’s was. (Try not to listen to Husky, he misses a few key points about the game, and therefore reaches some odd conclusions about mech in HotS)

So – how is this different than WoL?


In WoL, there is one main problem with mech: zealots. They’re useful for runbys/drops, of course (and that will likely not change), but the main problem with zealots is that nothing Terran has can withstand a zealot’s dps without kiting. As a result, prior to HotS, the marines and hellions which shielded tanks from fire were left with an awful choice – either take the full effect of zealot dps without kiting, or let protoss’s ranged units back to your tanks.

In HotS, this choice is no more, thanks to the Hellbat. The zealot wants its target to stay close and fight, but so does the hellbat – and at least in big engagements, the hellbat is better at it. The hellbat has 10% less health than the zealot and deals about 30% less damage to single targets (with the blue flame upgrade), but in exchange for that, it deals damage in a cone instead of to a single target. Essentially, this means that in a battle of BF Hellbats vs. chargelots, if the Hellbats are allowed to hit two targets (which is practically guaranteed in large-scale engagements), Hellbats trade favorably with zealots.

There is a secondary problem with Mech as well. In general, it’s not enough to have a ton of tanks to win engagements. You need to have things in front of the tanks to hinder their approach to the tank lines. And yet, everything terran has which is not also gas-heavy (and therefore is difficult to have and also have a ton of tanks) is weak to AE damage.

Hellbats have an advantage here, too. A hellbat is the size of a marauder, costs less, and has 8% more health. If your marauders are stimmed, a hellbat will have 29% more health. Hellbats are a bit undetermined here. On one hand, I look at roaches, and think to myself “Colossi and Templar feel ineffective against roaches (which are actually more expensive than hellbats and have only 10 more health).

Whether Colossi/Templar will “feel like” the best response to the need to cut through Hellbats or not remains to be seen.

What about the new units being added to Protoss?

Obviously nothing can be certain at this point, but at least lately, the Tempest has seemed less than stellar (and of course, they’ve said they’re completely redesigning the Oracle sometime soon). I feel like the tradeoff positionally between Tanks < Tempests < Vikings < Stalkers < Tanks seems quite well-designed, and quite intentional. A Tempest which is able to shoot at a Tank is just barely in range for a Viking to shoot at it without being in range of stalkers which are out of range of the tanks.

In short, if a Tempest is 15 range from the tank and a Viking is between tank and Tempest (9 range from Tempest, 6 from Tank), the Stalker must be within 6 of the Viking to fire on it, and so within 12 of the tank. And yet if the Tempest is 17 range away from the Tank, the Vikings cannot engage without being within stalker range (without the stalkers taking tank fire).

Other than the Tempest, you have MsC rushes (which have been shown to be deflected by early mines) and Oracle harassment (which is a big question mark, but which previously has been fairly ineffectual when the opponent is paying attention).

Conclusion

I wish I could conclude at this point that mech will be a new playstyle with 100% certainty. I can’t exactly do that yet, but one thing I can say certainly is that from the bits I have seen of Hellbat/Tank (Ghost/Viking, if need be), I think it looks much better in TvP than the comparable experience in WoL. I think hellbats will make great tanky-type units (similar in function to the roach or zealot) which will give mech the edge it needs to go from unconventional oddity to full-blown alternative playstyle. The positional play of tanks is a much more enjoyable way to play the game (and it’s more fun to watch, too). I’m not sure if Morrow’s Macro Mech (also “MMM”) style will hold a candle to Marine-Marauder-Medevac in HotS, but I’m sure it’ll be the “MMM” style I much prefer to play and watch.

It may not be BW mech, but compared to WoL, I’m much looking forward to it.

***
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
14:00
Bonus Weekend Qualifier
WardiTV159
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 372
MindelVK 53
trigger 32
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 16082
Sea 10259
Calm 7955
Horang2 3286
GuemChi 1651
Mini 1046
BeSt 706
Stork 705
Pusan 703
firebathero 624
[ Show more ]
Larva 276
PianO 235
Leta 225
Light 195
hero 121
Last 103
Barracks 69
ToSsGirL 66
Killer 54
JulyZerg 49
Backho 48
Sharp 45
Sea.KH 44
Terrorterran 35
soO 34
Noble 24
SilentControl 19
scan(afreeca) 14
yabsab 14
Sacsri 12
Hm[arnc] 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
HiyA 10
Bale 7
Shine 5
Britney 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7699
singsing1704
qojqva1240
Dendi799
XcaliburYe174
League of Legends
Reynor71
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1049
x6flipin532
allub224
oskar151
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor305
Other Games
B2W.Neo2102
crisheroes541
Fuzer 324
Pyrionflax220
Hui .191
Dewaltoss24
KnowMe4
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream29977
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 1266
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH173
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2379
• WagamamaTV361
• lizZardDota236
League of Legends
• Nemesis1149
Upcoming Events
IPSL
5h 53m
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
5h 53m
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
OSC
8h 53m
OSC
18h 53m
Wardi Open
21h 53m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 2h
OSC
1d 8h
Wardi Open
1d 21h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LAN Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.