• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:30
CET 15:30
KST 23:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win
Tourneys
StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Let's talk about Metropolis [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Foreign Brood War
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
Physical Exertion During Gam…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1486 users

Thoughts on Morrow's Macro Mech - my MMM for HotS

Blogs > Treehead
Post a Reply
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
October 23 2012 19:17 GMT
#1
I’ve been watching MorroW’s stream for some time, and he’s been doing a variety of things. Yet most of his play in TvP that I’d seen so far was centered more around the early game (perhaps it’s just been bad luck). I’ve seen a lot of him opening with Widow mines and pressing them to his opponent’s base early. Last night I saw something new – something which got me excited.

He was playing against NShoSeo (better known as “San”), who opened up with a 3-gate pressure/contain build with the Mothership Core. MorroW opened with a pretty early in-base CC (after taking gas) and somewhere in there built a factory or two. With two early bunkers, he held until tanks – and once tanks were out, that allowed him to be increasingly more aggressive with his Widow mine placement. Most notably, though, is that he built his third CC before he cleared out his natural (his second OC was still in base when he started his third! Can he get away with that?)

San, whose natural was blocked during the 3-gate pressure, had a Nexus building before Morrow was able to drive off San’s forces, and the game kicked into macro mode. Morrow was ahead economically, of that there is little doubt – but he didn’t rush his advantage. He went almost entirely tank/hellion with a handful of Vikings and a smattering of ghosts (and no thors), and therefore any reasonable approach he could make needed to be wary of being caught out of position. So instead, he built up OCs, killed off some of his SCVs and remaxed (much like bio does).

When he finally pushed San’s fourth, I’m fairly confident they were both maxed (or close) – and San’s army was one that would likely have crushed WoL mech. It was a small number of Stalkers, a ton of Immortals (8? 10?) a good number of archons and the rest zealots. In short, he had exactly the ground army a protoss would want to have against mech. I didn’t see more than a couple EMPs (though maybe I missed them) and therefore a lot of Immortal shields could be heard during the fighting, and San was able to warp in right at the point of engagement. I was sure that he’d push MorroW back. But MorroW cleaned it up. He still had maybe half his tanks remaining when San was forced to take his half dozen remaining units back to his natural to regroup.

The game ended shortly thereafter.

Obviously, I don’t have a video to link of this (it was something I saw on his stream), but here is another mech game to watch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370725&currentpage=16#313).
Unfortunately, White-Ra takes this one. But the reason had little to do with MorroW’s army strength, and more to do with the fact that he did less good of a job forcing the direct engagement, White-Ra was able to engage favorably a couple of times, and the map itself was more open (and therefore, direct engagements are harder to force). White-Ra’s composition was a lot less countery than San’s was. (Try not to listen to Husky, he misses a few key points about the game, and therefore reaches some odd conclusions about mech in HotS)

So – how is this different than WoL?


In WoL, there is one main problem with mech: zealots. They’re useful for runbys/drops, of course (and that will likely not change), but the main problem with zealots is that nothing Terran has can withstand a zealot’s dps without kiting. As a result, prior to HotS, the marines and hellions which shielded tanks from fire were left with an awful choice – either take the full effect of zealot dps without kiting, or let protoss’s ranged units back to your tanks.

In HotS, this choice is no more, thanks to the Hellbat. The zealot wants its target to stay close and fight, but so does the hellbat – and at least in big engagements, the hellbat is better at it. The hellbat has 10% less health than the zealot and deals about 30% less damage to single targets (with the blue flame upgrade), but in exchange for that, it deals damage in a cone instead of to a single target. Essentially, this means that in a battle of BF Hellbats vs. chargelots, if the Hellbats are allowed to hit two targets (which is practically guaranteed in large-scale engagements), Hellbats trade favorably with zealots.

There is a secondary problem with Mech as well. In general, it’s not enough to have a ton of tanks to win engagements. You need to have things in front of the tanks to hinder their approach to the tank lines. And yet, everything terran has which is not also gas-heavy (and therefore is difficult to have and also have a ton of tanks) is weak to AE damage.

Hellbats have an advantage here, too. A hellbat is the size of a marauder, costs less, and has 8% more health. If your marauders are stimmed, a hellbat will have 29% more health. Hellbats are a bit undetermined here. On one hand, I look at roaches, and think to myself “Colossi and Templar feel ineffective against roaches (which are actually more expensive than hellbats and have only 10 more health).

Whether Colossi/Templar will “feel like” the best response to the need to cut through Hellbats or not remains to be seen.

What about the new units being added to Protoss?

Obviously nothing can be certain at this point, but at least lately, the Tempest has seemed less than stellar (and of course, they’ve said they’re completely redesigning the Oracle sometime soon). I feel like the tradeoff positionally between Tanks < Tempests < Vikings < Stalkers < Tanks seems quite well-designed, and quite intentional. A Tempest which is able to shoot at a Tank is just barely in range for a Viking to shoot at it without being in range of stalkers which are out of range of the tanks.

In short, if a Tempest is 15 range from the tank and a Viking is between tank and Tempest (9 range from Tempest, 6 from Tank), the Stalker must be within 6 of the Viking to fire on it, and so within 12 of the tank. And yet if the Tempest is 17 range away from the Tank, the Vikings cannot engage without being within stalker range (without the stalkers taking tank fire).

Other than the Tempest, you have MsC rushes (which have been shown to be deflected by early mines) and Oracle harassment (which is a big question mark, but which previously has been fairly ineffectual when the opponent is paying attention).

Conclusion

I wish I could conclude at this point that mech will be a new playstyle with 100% certainty. I can’t exactly do that yet, but one thing I can say certainly is that from the bits I have seen of Hellbat/Tank (Ghost/Viking, if need be), I think it looks much better in TvP than the comparable experience in WoL. I think hellbats will make great tanky-type units (similar in function to the roach or zealot) which will give mech the edge it needs to go from unconventional oddity to full-blown alternative playstyle. The positional play of tanks is a much more enjoyable way to play the game (and it’s more fun to watch, too). I’m not sure if Morrow’s Macro Mech (also “MMM”) style will hold a candle to Marine-Marauder-Medevac in HotS, but I’m sure it’ll be the “MMM” style I much prefer to play and watch.

It may not be BW mech, but compared to WoL, I’m much looking forward to it.

***
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 266
ProTech139
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 39881
Calm 5422
Horang2 1724
Light 1101
Soma 1008
Sharp 916
GuemChi 883
Stork 665
Mini 663
Snow 628
[ Show more ]
actioN 598
ZerO 361
Rush 285
Hyuk 205
JYJ 195
Zeus 153
Hyun 105
PianO 89
ToSsGirL 33
910 33
Terrorterran 27
scan(afreeca) 20
SilentControl 13
soO 13
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
JulyZerg 12
Sacsri 9
Rock 6
HiyA 6
Dota 2
Gorgc5397
singsing3163
qojqva1341
Dendi424
XcaliburYe136
syndereN120
febbydoto10
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2322
shoxiejesuss510
allub1
Other Games
B2W.Neo1065
crisheroes372
Fuzer 338
Hui .234
RotterdaM206
Happy171
oskar100
QueenE78
ArmadaUGS40
ZerO(Twitch)11
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 6
lovetv 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2069
• WagamamaTV128
• lizZardDota251
League of Legends
• Jankos2600
• TFBlade581
Upcoming Events
StarCraft2.fi
2h 30m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
9h 30m
The PondCast
19h 30m
WardiTV 2025
21h 30m
StarCraft2.fi
1d 2h
WardiTV 2025
1d 21h
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
IPSL
3 days
Sziky vs JDConan
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
[ Show More ]
WardiTV 2025
3 days
IPSL
4 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.