I'm not a particularly over patriotic person, but when I see an American flag being mutilated or dragged through filth it makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't know if this is ingrained in me through society, but I hold a certain amount of respect for this widely venerated emblem.
Recently a friend of mine posted a bunch of photos of instagram of him and his hipster friends standing around a flag that is balled up on the ground and covered in trash, what looks to be cigarette ash, and other filth. Further in the album there he seems to be using the flag as a beach towel, and the picture shows it covered with sand with dirty shoes on top of it. When I look at these photos I can't help but be slightly pissed of, and I cannot put my finger exactly on why.
What do you think about the manner in which the flag should be treated? regardless of what country you hail from. Would seeing pictures like these bother you? Is it disrespectful to use the American flag for a beach towel? I know they probably sell beach towels that resemble the American flag but I consider this to be completely different.
it's pretty disrespectful, but it's legal so i can't really complain.. i think pride in your country is more than just having respect for its flag, just like it takes more to deface a country than just putting some cigarette butts to its flag.
It´s a piece of cloth, a symbol from a generation you were not part of. Not worth caring about really.
Why shouldn´t free will and humanity triumph over symbols?
But that´s just me, I come from a country where the flag was a propaganda tool to bind us together against the king´s enemies. It´s a symbol of oppression and deceit, and I can never understand the few who still clamors on to it.
The flag probably just means more to you than it ought to. Maybe you associate it with things you love about your culture and your life. Its not a big deal.
I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
Nationalism & You: Don't be nationalistic. When people desecrate your flag, they're not generally going after you, they're going after the country's politics, mostly its foreign policy. Sometimes they may be going after capitalism and corruption and such, but it's almost always an attack against the government and the people who are in positions of power.
The US has done enough horrible things that complaining about flag desecration just comes off as dumb. I'd happily burn a Canadian flag and drag it in filth... that said, I won't - symbolism is stupid, except batman.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
Interesting opinion here, but it's actually pretty true the more that I think about it. The fact that we can do it without suffering serious repercussions (minus loud, aggravated chatter in our ears) is pretty amazing. It actually is a testament within itself to the foundations this country is built on. Cool opinion, zalz.
I understand why some people feel that way. We humans are tribal, and icons and symbols representative of that tribe speak to us in a very primal way. It's not an American thing; it's a human thing. We're protective of the things we care about - our family, our friends, our people, our "tribe" - and it's easy to symbolize our values and then confer the protection onto that symbol. It's not a bad thing, as long as it doesn't evolve into xenophobia or jingoism.
I do think it's something that you learn to revere through your upbringing, however. I wasn't raised to revere a particular symbol, so in my case - and to paraphrase George Carlin - "I consider them to be symbols, and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded." A bit brusque, but not wholly inaccurate. But, again, I definitely understand why some people feel the way you do.
You should watch Flight from Death. It's a really interesting, award-winning documentary that touches on this subject in greater detail, among other thought-provoking issues.
Burning the flag can't hurt me. It's an expression, a symbol, and as has been mentioned, the fact that they can... well, that's a bigger symbol.
I wish we could get more people to tolerate people burning it. I don't expect to ever reach the point where nobody wants to, that's impossible. But the reaction can speak louder than anything. I did 4.5 years as Infantry in the Army. I respect what the flag stands for, and one of the greatest things it stands for (in my mind) is freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and equality. We aren't perfect along those lines, but we could be worse.
Frankly, I think the most powerful symbolism in destroying an icon is the reaction. When the reaction belies the theoretical meaning of the destroyed symbol, it speaks loudly to the true sway the symbol and all it represents hold over people, and what they consider justified.
Obviously, one person's reaction may not be another, but the extremes can say a lot, if we remember not to use them as a blanket expectation.
Also, you have to remember, symbols exist to unite and, on one level or another, control populations under a common theme.
Having a protective reaction toward the symbol is merely an extension of protecting that which falls under the symbol with yourself. Although frankly, protecting those the symbol unites should be a stronger reaction than protecting the symbol. I'd go so far as to say that this makes non-universal symbols one of the most dangerous and divisive forces in the world.
I don't object to peoples right to deface a flag, more so I find it a petty sort of pseudo-rebellion. Were I to see someone burn the Norwegian flag, I might be irked, but more so because of the ludicrously immature intentions of the flag-burner. As for your friends on instagram, they sound like a riot.
If your patriotism is wounded by someone stomping on a symbol, then your patriotism is hardly worthy of note.
You can burn as many American flags as you want. You're paying for them and helping our capitalistic system. Edit: I'm willing to sell special flags that burn better and don't pollute as much.
I'd be curious as to the reasoning why they did what they did in the first place. If it was because they're "pissed at the establishment" and want to show how cool they are, then I would say it's time to reconsider that person as a friend.
Personally, I think if you're going to desecrate a flag and post pictures of it, I'm not going to bat an eyelash if someone comes after you for it. At that point you're trying to bring attention to it, and I'm not going to blame anyone if their reaction is negative. Let's not forget that in US while it's unconstitutional to make desecrating a flag punishable by law, there still is a code of conduct and respect that is expected when handling a flag. For instance: "When on display [indoors], the flag is accorded the place of honor, always positioned to its own right. Place it to the speaker's right, the audience's left, in a staging area or sanctuary. Other flags should be to the speaker's left." It's one thing to be ignorant of something like this and make the mistake of say putting all flags on the same side of a speaker, it is an entirely different thing when you know a code/rule/law is in place and purposely violate it.
I'm not a very patriotic person, in fact I'm of the mindset that we're going to need a revolution soon if our government continues to become more and more corrupt. However, there is no perfect government for humanity as we're all greedy fucking assholes, so if it pisses you off enough that he desecrated a flag, go do something about it.
Sigh, the propaganda in that video of Penn... it makes me want to puke. While part holds true, 99% of the people have no idea what happens in those countries and how much exaggeration is going on.
I can agree with you op, in that I too get kinda uneasy when people burn the American flag, when they should be loving this country that allows you to even do that. Go somewhere else and do that and you'll get arrested. But the way you describe your friends doing it, it makes them sound like douches who just thought it would be funny or something to burn the flag, instead of realizing the meaning behind such an action. That's the kind of flag defacing that would upset me. If you burn it to protest gay rights, or the war or something, then I stand by your ability to do that 100%.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautiful thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
Very neat perspective, zalz—and from someone who's not even American. I never thought about it like that before, but I really like the way you turn the American flag into a sort of fabric Obi-Wan.
I find it contemptible to desecrate the flag because it's "cool" to do. It's like taking a dump on a bible because it's "cool". You're basically dissing a lot of people for no good fucking reason. I find the motive more disgusting than the actual act, though. The act itself does not bother me in the least. The motive behind it is what gets my goat more often than not.
On October 03 2012 06:05 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I find it contemptible to desecrate the flag because it's "cool" to do. It's like taking a dump on a bible because it's "cool". You're basically dissing a lot of people for no good fucking reason. I find the motive more disgusting than the actual act, though. The act itself does not bother me in the least. The motive behind it is what gets my goat more often than not.
I'm like to agree... My problem with it is this: On one hand the flag is a symbol of America, and therefore, representative of me as an American. I am very fortunate and was given a lot of opportunity simply because I was born here, and for that I am eternally grateful. On the other hand, the exploitation of some Americans by other Americans is a pretty hurtful thing to live with, and that is just one example on a long list of disgraces borne by the flag as a symbol. At times I would be happy to burn the American flag, if in the context of burning it to symbolically stamp out it's negative connotations, but it is offensive when I see the goodness of America burning with it. Those "hipsters" are likely ignorant of the advantages that were given to them by America and the place they grew up in, and don't really understand what they are burning when they do that. Another case of "bless them though they know not what they do," I guess. Luckily, those "hipsters" are as insignificant (plainly speaking) in this world as their actions, and they only really affect a tiny population of people who happen to be close to them.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
Even patriotic Americans should take a fat steamer on the US flag just once in a while for the atrocities committed by their troops all over the world. Sure, there's no way to know the frequency and intensity of those atrocities, but I think we can all agree that collateral damage happens and continues to happen due to the US's little "world police" gig. And that's just one thing that's reprehensible. That said, someone just might burn a Canadian flag, there are all kinds of reasons for it, like the ridiculous attempts to open a debate about whether or not abortion should be made illegal.
That said, I don't understand American pride anymore because of how politically divided the country is. There are 2 relevant political parties with vastly different ideologies and massive support from the population, which leads to virulent debates about morals and ethics. There is an extraordinarily deep disagreement on what the core principles of the US need to be. Most people say that you shouldn't talk about politics with your family, and the reason for that is that you may hate them if you knew about their dumbshit beliefs.
No point in defending the symbol of your country or anyone's country. People can and should protest against countries that commit fault (all of them). That being said, I think flag-burning is useless. Going after symbols is not effective. Either way, people should do whatever they want for all I care. And if someone's feelings are hurt, then it's up to them to control their own emotions.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
Didn't agree with all of this 100% but you actually have a good point.
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
This on the other hand, is understandable. Why would you want to risk dying for something that symbolized what you're fighting for? Maybe you just did it for the bonus/benefits, but they're probably hoping to instill that in you. Personally, I'd fight harder if I was doing it for my country than if I was doing it for the bonus/benefits.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
This on the other hand, is understandable. Why would you want to risk dying for something that symbolized what you're fighting for? Maybe you just did it for the bonus/benefits, but they're probably hoping to instill that in you. Personally, I'd fight harder if I was doing it for my country than if I was doing it for the bonus/benefits.
Meh, I was in the Army, and my country and my flag aren't interchangeable in my mind. The country is made up of people. Some reprehensible, some not. The flag is a symbol, but what it represents isn't, to me, irretrievably tied to what I signed up for.
The flag is the embodiment of the principals of the country, the country is the sum of the people in it. The people are much more important than the symbol.
What you are feeling is disdain for human stupidity and modern leftist hipsterism. This is a natural reaction of anyone with a brain who doesn't feel pleasure at being edgy and disrespectful. It has nothing to do with nationalism or the flag itself, just with their stupidity and attempt at being offensive douchebags.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
[insert angry expletives] no one is STARVING in America, and if they are they must have no arms and no legs and be stranded in Death Valley because the average American city throws away enough food on a daily basis to feel all of Ethiopia. Where do people get this starving myth from? The average poor person is OBESE.
On October 03 2012 14:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: What you are feeling is disdain for human stupidity and modern leftist hipsterism. This is a natural reaction of anyone with a brain who doesn't feel pleasure at being edgy and disrespectful. It has nothing to do with nationalism or the flag itself, just with their stupidity and attempt at being offensive douchebags.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
[insert angry expletives] no one is STARVING in America, and if they are they must have no arms and no legs and be stranded in Death Valley because the average American city throws away enough food on a daily basis to feel all of Ethiopia. Where do people get this starving myth from? The average poor person is OBESE.
I think he means all the soldiers u are sending to death in the middle east, because there happens to be some black substance in the ground there.
Over here people get uncomfortable when our flag is flown, not when it's dragged through the dirt.
Flying our flag during the world cup 2002 was a seriously debated topic. It's gotten all a bit more relaxed over the past decade, but in that regard Germany will probably never be a "normal" country again.
On October 03 2012 20:37 zatic wrote: Over here people get uncomfortable when our flag is flown, not when it's dragged through the dirt.
Flying our flag during the world cup 2002 was a seriously debated topic. It's gotten all a bit more relaxed over the past decade, but in that regard Germany will probably never be a "normal" country again.
Holland isn't that different.
Anyone who has a flag pin on his shirt is generally considered racist-ish, though most of that is because the more racist-folk generally have the dutch flag featured prominently.
Might just be a Europe thing in general, considering how we got burned by nationalism, twice.
On October 03 2012 01:35 Endymion wrote: it's pretty disrespectful, but it's legal so i can't really complain.. i think pride in your country is more than just having respect for its flag, just like it takes more to deface a country than just putting some cigarette butts to its flag.
I agree, but I think it is fine to complain about it. Just because something is legal does not mean that it should not be discussed, analyzed or even emotionally reacted to. Of course what is wrong is to take it a step further and impede on the rights of others.
I think flag burning can be very powerful. Part of the power is the reactions it provokes, but another is the fact that it is quite rare. The symbolism will lose its potency if either wane, and it relies on the type of country where it occurs.
I forget who it was that phrased it along these lines: they're not burning the United States's flag, they're burning their own piece of cloth that they probably paid money for.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
This on the other hand, is understandable. Why would you want to risk dying for something that symbolized what you're fighting for? Maybe you just did it for the bonus/benefits, but they're probably hoping to instill that in you. Personally, I'd fight harder if I was doing it for my country than if I was doing it for the bonus/benefits.
I'm not going to lie, nowadays I do it for the benefits. The job market is so fucked up in the US and I'm making decent money in the military. I'm working on my bachelors now in Computer Science (shit is hard ) So after the military I want to transition back into the civilian world peacefully.
/end off topic
Oh yeah and I'm always surprised at how unique Americans are IMO. I've seen some bizarre shit.
The flag is a symbol of a country - something to be proud of - you'll find that conservatives in general hold a high regard for the flag. Liberal minded people in general will care less about the flag - which is unsurprising considering the apologetic nature of the ideology.
The only time I really respect flag burning is in protest. Your hipster friends are just jumping on the 'fuck America' bandwagon, or at least I suspect.
EPT
) So after the military I want to transition back into the civilian world peacefully. 
