On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautiful thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
Very neat perspective, zalz—and from someone who's not even American. I never thought about it like that before, but I really like the way you turn the American flag into a sort of fabric Obi-Wan.
I find it contemptible to desecrate the flag because it's "cool" to do. It's like taking a dump on a bible because it's "cool". You're basically dissing a lot of people for no good fucking reason. I find the motive more disgusting than the actual act, though. The act itself does not bother me in the least. The motive behind it is what gets my goat more often than not.
On October 03 2012 06:05 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I find it contemptible to desecrate the flag because it's "cool" to do. It's like taking a dump on a bible because it's "cool". You're basically dissing a lot of people for no good fucking reason. I find the motive more disgusting than the actual act, though. The act itself does not bother me in the least. The motive behind it is what gets my goat more often than not.
I'm like to agree... My problem with it is this: On one hand the flag is a symbol of America, and therefore, representative of me as an American. I am very fortunate and was given a lot of opportunity simply because I was born here, and for that I am eternally grateful. On the other hand, the exploitation of some Americans by other Americans is a pretty hurtful thing to live with, and that is just one example on a long list of disgraces borne by the flag as a symbol. At times I would be happy to burn the American flag, if in the context of burning it to symbolically stamp out it's negative connotations, but it is offensive when I see the goodness of America burning with it. Those "hipsters" are likely ignorant of the advantages that were given to them by America and the place they grew up in, and don't really understand what they are burning when they do that. Another case of "bless them though they know not what they do," I guess. Luckily, those "hipsters" are as insignificant (plainly speaking) in this world as their actions, and they only really affect a tiny population of people who happen to be close to them.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
Even patriotic Americans should take a fat steamer on the US flag just once in a while for the atrocities committed by their troops all over the world. Sure, there's no way to know the frequency and intensity of those atrocities, but I think we can all agree that collateral damage happens and continues to happen due to the US's little "world police" gig. And that's just one thing that's reprehensible. That said, someone just might burn a Canadian flag, there are all kinds of reasons for it, like the ridiculous attempts to open a debate about whether or not abortion should be made illegal.
That said, I don't understand American pride anymore because of how politically divided the country is. There are 2 relevant political parties with vastly different ideologies and massive support from the population, which leads to virulent debates about morals and ethics. There is an extraordinarily deep disagreement on what the core principles of the US need to be. Most people say that you shouldn't talk about politics with your family, and the reason for that is that you may hate them if you knew about their dumbshit beliefs.
No point in defending the symbol of your country or anyone's country. People can and should protest against countries that commit fault (all of them). That being said, I think flag-burning is useless. Going after symbols is not effective. Either way, people should do whatever they want for all I care. And if someone's feelings are hurt, then it's up to them to control their own emotions.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
Didn't agree with all of this 100% but you actually have a good point.
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
This on the other hand, is understandable. Why would you want to risk dying for something that symbolized what you're fighting for? Maybe you just did it for the bonus/benefits, but they're probably hoping to instill that in you. Personally, I'd fight harder if I was doing it for my country than if I was doing it for the bonus/benefits.
On October 03 2012 01:59 zalz wrote: I think burning or destroying an American flag is a pretty beautifull thing.
Those crazy mobs might never even be aware of it, but the fact is that they can only burn an American flag. Were they to try doing it to their own flag, their lives would be short-lived.
The fact that your friends can destroy the American flag is a testament to the strength of the symbol, and the freedom it represents. Even those that disagree can speak their mind.
I'm not a great fan of symbols, seeing as they generally go hand in hand with insane mobs tripping over one another to murder other people and destroy property "in defense of the [input]".
But, anyone that wants to "defend" the American flag would know that they must allow these people to destroy the flag. It isn't like a Quran or a China flag. It permits people to disagree.
*And the video that will sooner or later be posted:
I'm in the US Air Force. The US flag is so damn serious to the military that we even get promotion questions that quiz us on the proper flag customs and courtesies. Since the AF takes multiple choice tests to get promoted to E-5 and up...
I didn't even know prior to being in the military that the flag NEVER touches the ground. I didn't know the proper way to fold a flag. Raising it on a flag pole, half staff, full, and etc. For ceremonies, the flag of the United States will be at the right, which is to the left of an observer facing the display. However, if no foreign national flags are involved in the display, the flag of the United States may be placed at the center of the line providing the flag of United States is displayed at a higher level than the other flags in the display
US flag is serious business in the military. It is treated like a human being.
This on the other hand, is understandable. Why would you want to risk dying for something that symbolized what you're fighting for? Maybe you just did it for the bonus/benefits, but they're probably hoping to instill that in you. Personally, I'd fight harder if I was doing it for my country than if I was doing it for the bonus/benefits.
Meh, I was in the Army, and my country and my flag aren't interchangeable in my mind. The country is made up of people. Some reprehensible, some not. The flag is a symbol, but what it represents isn't, to me, irretrievably tied to what I signed up for.
The flag is the embodiment of the principals of the country, the country is the sum of the people in it. The people are much more important than the symbol.
What you are feeling is disdain for human stupidity and modern leftist hipsterism. This is a natural reaction of anyone with a brain who doesn't feel pleasure at being edgy and disrespectful. It has nothing to do with nationalism or the flag itself, just with their stupidity and attempt at being offensive douchebags.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
[insert angry expletives] no one is STARVING in America, and if they are they must have no arms and no legs and be stranded in Death Valley because the average American city throws away enough food on a daily basis to feel all of Ethiopia. Where do people get this starving myth from? The average poor person is OBESE.
On October 03 2012 14:02 jdseemoreglass wrote: What you are feeling is disdain for human stupidity and modern leftist hipsterism. This is a natural reaction of anyone with a brain who doesn't feel pleasure at being edgy and disrespectful. It has nothing to do with nationalism or the flag itself, just with their stupidity and attempt at being offensive douchebags.
On October 03 2012 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: I think it's disrespectful that people can get upset over flags being mutilated yet let their "countrymen" starve without a second thought.
[insert angry expletives] no one is STARVING in America, and if they are they must have no arms and no legs and be stranded in Death Valley because the average American city throws away enough food on a daily basis to feel all of Ethiopia. Where do people get this starving myth from? The average poor person is OBESE.
I think he means all the soldiers u are sending to death in the middle east, because there happens to be some black substance in the ground there.
Over here people get uncomfortable when our flag is flown, not when it's dragged through the dirt.
Flying our flag during the world cup 2002 was a seriously debated topic. It's gotten all a bit more relaxed over the past decade, but in that regard Germany will probably never be a "normal" country again.
On October 03 2012 20:37 zatic wrote: Over here people get uncomfortable when our flag is flown, not when it's dragged through the dirt.
Flying our flag during the world cup 2002 was a seriously debated topic. It's gotten all a bit more relaxed over the past decade, but in that regard Germany will probably never be a "normal" country again.
Holland isn't that different.
Anyone who has a flag pin on his shirt is generally considered racist-ish, though most of that is because the more racist-folk generally have the dutch flag featured prominently.
Might just be a Europe thing in general, considering how we got burned by nationalism, twice.
On October 03 2012 01:35 Endymion wrote: it's pretty disrespectful, but it's legal so i can't really complain.. i think pride in your country is more than just having respect for its flag, just like it takes more to deface a country than just putting some cigarette butts to its flag.
I agree, but I think it is fine to complain about it. Just because something is legal does not mean that it should not be discussed, analyzed or even emotionally reacted to. Of course what is wrong is to take it a step further and impede on the rights of others.
I think flag burning can be very powerful. Part of the power is the reactions it provokes, but another is the fact that it is quite rare. The symbolism will lose its potency if either wane, and it relies on the type of country where it occurs.
I forget who it was that phrased it along these lines: they're not burning the United States's flag, they're burning their own piece of cloth that they probably paid money for.
EPT
