• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:33
CEST 20:33
KST 03:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview25Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates7GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN! $25,000+ WardiTV 2025 Series
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates BW General Discussion Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1 [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Mechabellum Monster Hunter Wilds
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 21535 users

A New Understanding of SC2

Blogs > Clazziquai10
Post a Reply
Clazziquai10
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore1949 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 13:14:17
September 26 2012 13:10 GMT
#1
It wasn't too long ago that I was a follower of the "probes and pylons, drones and overlords, scvs and supply depots" idealogy. Macro was my religion, and Day9 was my priest. Strategy didn't matter - perfect execution of it was the key.

A few months ago, I vowed to get into masters. Well, I failed big time. They said you don't need any other build other than 1 rax FE to get to masters, or so it seems. Or rather, that was what I thought. But I wasn't making any progress doing what I had always done. I was hitting the 100 food benchmark at the 10 minute mark everytime. I had 50 scvs by 10 minutes, but I still wasn't winning enough. I lost to roach baneling all-ins. I lost to 7 gate all-ins. I was losing to late game deathballs. I was losing to 1-1-1 all-ins.

I decided I had enough after losing to a 6 pool. That was the tipping point. As they say, you won't get bananas if you sow apple seeds. I had to do something. I had to change up my playstyle. I had probably hit the proverbial "macro harder" ceiling - the point at which "macro harder" fails yield any significant increase in results, and strategy becomes relevant.

I decided on 2 things:
1. I need to start cheesing. Not all the time, but under certain circumstances.
2. I had to vastly improve my micro (which I had already accomplished).
3. I need to stop playing into my opponent's hands. I HAD to stop playing in a passive and reactive manner. I need to put my opponent on the backfoot.

The problem with playing reactively is that you need to have good knowledge and execution in how to hold off what you opponent is doing without taking too much damage, and you need to know how to play after the storm is over. Problem is, there is simply TOO MUCH stuff that they can throw at you, and unless you practice 10 hours a day, there is simply no way to know how to play perfectly against all specific playstyles.

So as they say,if you can't beat em', join em'!

Unpredictability is now my new mantra. The key is to do what your opponent LEAST expects you to do. Examples?

Cheesing on large maps

Proxy 11-11 on Condemmed Ridge? ARE YOU CRAZY?!!!!

NO I'M NOT.

Lets face it, what will people think about when they play on a large map? Yes, you got that right, Einstein. MACRO GAMES. Which dumb mothafucker will cheese on such a large map?

But, lets face it. How long do you think you will take to scout on a four player map? Let alone a map as big as condemmed ridge. You might already be dead before you find my base. In fact, so many people do not even bother to scout on large maps, cos they ASSUME that people will play macro games, and building on that assumption, they try to play greedy. CC first. Nexus first.

As we all know, assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Cheesing against random players

Now, uhm, what is the most significant advantage random players hold against you right at the start of the game? It certainly doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure out that its the fact that you don't know his race.

And so he probably THINKS that if he withholds that information from you as long as possible, he can possibly throw you off your game. So he does not scout. Bad mistake.

I don't care if you're terran, protoss or zerg. If you don't scout for a proxy 11-11 you are frickin dead no matter what.

Thats why i ironically hate random players who tell me their race. Dayum.

Making units that force a reaction

Let us think about it. What kind of units force a reaction out of you? What kind of units will ABSOLUTELY MOTHAFUCKING KILL YOU if you don't respond appropriately to it, or choose not to respond at all?

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
Okay.....the last one isn't a unit.....but you get the idea

You don't see marines and zerglings and shiver in your boots and think: OMG THATS FRICKIN GONNA KILL ME. Thats the idea, which brings me to my next point.

Making units that opponents DON'T expect you to make

Let me ask you this question. You just killed of your opponent's natural hatchery with your proxy 11-11 and can't push any further. What do you do?

Get 2 more command centres? Yep. Get another rax and gases, go for stim and subsequently medivacs, or hellions? Kinda guessed that. Go for an eventual marine tank combination? Been there done that. Boring.

What if I told you I now follow it up with 2 starport banshee? Now, do you think a zerg trying to rebuild his economy will expect that? Really? 2 starport banshee? Could you have guessed that?

You're trying to rebuild your economy and you think I can't do anything about it because you now have spine crawlers, speedlings and banelings? Think again.

*********

And now, armed with my newfound mentality, I'm proud to say I'm gotten back on track on the road to masters again.

[image loading]
I know you guys would looove to find out my nick, but.......

*
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
September 26 2012 14:50 GMT
#2
If getting to Masters is all you care about, cheese on.
I think esports is pretty nice.
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
September 26 2012 16:30 GMT
#3
You really only just figured out that playing solid is harder work than trying to get cheaper wins?
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
September 26 2012 18:04 GMT
#4
Here's the thing.

You're taking you mindset - which was "macro, macro, macro" and changing it completely instead of just tweaking it. In doing so, you may be winning games you wouldn't before, but you'll also find yourself losing games that you also used to win. Rather, you should take your mindset of "macro, macro, macro" and just look for situations where you have to violate that mindset and do something else.

Feel free to play how you like - I'm sure this will give you results for a bit. You might find, though, that changing your mindset from "macro hard all game" to "cheese the crap out of him all game" just ends with you losing at a different time of the game than you used to. Rather, if your mindset is "macro hard all game as much as I can, except... 1. around the time X finishes, watch for a 6 pool and prepare this reaction, 2. around this time scout for a gas in case of baneling allins, etc.", you'll find you can still win the games you always could, and now you have a plan for the games you used to lose, too.

Your problem is that you are emphasizing one thing the entire game, it's not *what* you are emphasizing the entire game. Timing should determine what you are emphasizing, not some sort of absolute ranking of emphases.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is my opinion that anyone who reached master's by macroing really, really well and a-moving on the minimap did it a long time ago - and couldn't replicate that feat even if they wanted to.
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3291 Posts
September 26 2012 18:23 GMT
#5
the key to perfecting all-ins is knowing how hard to macro. For expample if you do a one base all-in if your not gonna pull scvs only build like 25 or so scvs. If your gonna go for a 2 base timing only build enough for saturation if your not gonna pull.
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Brandish
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States339 Posts
September 26 2012 18:31 GMT
#6
It seems like your problem is decision making, honestly, how can you lose to a 6 pool if you're doing a 1 rax FE? thats pretty hard to do, especially if you're scouting at all. Even if you do CC before second depot your scouting scv will probably see a pool or run into some zerglings in time for you to drop your second depot instantly. Either way, cheesing probably won't help you get to masters if you can't even make broad strategy decisions.
Lokk
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada635 Posts
September 26 2012 19:45 GMT
#7
you're obviously not learning you're just text booking all your plays...... studying more and imo cheesing may get you masters but its a waste of time for improving goodluck though....
@Lokk_2/Go Woori 우리
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
September 26 2012 20:28 GMT
#8
On September 26 2012 22:10 Clazziquai10 wrote:
I know you guys would looove to find out my nick, but.......


http://sc2ranks.com/us/2779200/YtwoJ

Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
September 26 2012 20:43 GMT
#9
Just like chess, learning the opening and endgame gives you the best practice.

It´s about learning the idea about openings and (What day9 so geniously propogates for, but many miss) favoring endgames. Giving you a natural goal to go for during the midgame.

Cheesing is one of the openings a gm must master and is definitively good to do so.

So keep doing what suits you, til you start losing and then do the slightest adjustments to make it work.


Koreans learn by cheesing, so that you won´t improve with it, is just out the window from the start
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
September 26 2012 21:03 GMT
#10
Cheesing is just macro on a small scale, so small its mostly about micro. The ultimate goal is winning, so do what it takes to win, and you will learn how to be very precise on a small scale, and then be able to better branch out to a complete macro game (since you will hit a ceiling just cheesing).
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
September 26 2012 21:13 GMT
#11
On September 27 2012 01:30 EnE wrote:
You really only just figured out that playing solid is harder work than trying to get cheaper wins?


Yup this. You can get to masters by just cheesing anyway and be fine, but then learning how to play a macro game is a different story, especially if you can only beat masters players by cheesing your mechanics aren't going to be master level which means you will probably only be cheesing or getting crushed in a macro game.
When I think of something else, something will go here
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
September 27 2012 14:38 GMT
#12
On September 27 2012 06:13 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2012 01:30 EnE wrote:
You really only just figured out that playing solid is harder work than trying to get cheaper wins?


Yup this. You can get to masters by just cheesing anyway and be fine, but then learning how to play a macro game is a different story, especially if you can only beat masters players by cheesing your mechanics aren't going to be master level which means you will probably only be cheesing or getting crushed in a macro game.


I think that the OP is trolling. The reason you dont go 2port banshee after kiling a hatchery with 2 rax is because if you triple cc you have a guaranteed win if you just play it out half decent, and if you 2 port banshee you will lose your advantage if they scout and react correctly.
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 27m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 549
BRAT_OK 120
MindelVK 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24733
Hyuk 405
Stork 387
firebathero 302
TY 133
Bonyth 94
Snow 85
sSak 59
JYJ34
Dewaltoss 23
Counter-Strike
fl0m6821
Foxcn238
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0875
Mew2King77
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby364
Other Games
FrodaN1176
Beastyqt776
B2W.Neo423
ArmadaUGS153
Trikslyr77
KnowMe50
ZombieGrub50
QueenE47
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream9725
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream625
Other Games
BasetradeTV103
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 145
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• FirePhoenix4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler91
League of Legends
• TFBlade1315
• Shiphtur678
Other Games
• imaqtpie844
Upcoming Events
BSL 2v2 ProLeague
27m
Replay Cast
5h 27m
CranKy Ducklings
15h 27m
Bellum Gens Elite
15h 27m
SC Evo League
17h 27m
Fire Grow Cup
20h 27m
CSO Contender
22h 27m
BSL: ProLeague
23h 27m
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Replay Cast
1d 5h
SOOP Global
1d 8h
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
[ Show More ]
SOOP
1d 14h
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 15h
AllThingsProtoss
1d 16h
Fire Grow Cup
1d 20h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 23h
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.