• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:56
CEST 06:56
KST 13:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash3[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy9ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool49Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Potential Updates Coming to the SC2 CN Server Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
Mutation # 519 Inner Power The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: SoulKey vs Ample RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site KK Platform will provide 1 million CNY
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group C [ASL21] Ro24 Group D [ASL21] Ro24 Group B
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Darkest Dungeon Path of Exile
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10928 users

Flaws in variety

Blogs > Big J
Post a Reply
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-17 14:45:24
August 17 2012 12:52 GMT
#1
This has basically just become a wall of text. Not sure if it is good to read, but I really want to get this out


Over time I have been thinking about the many gameplay features a good RTS should provide and I just want to share my thoughts about them, and a concept how to solve many of their problems.
Basically, the concept is less factions, more units per factions with pregame limits.
So let's look at some features of modern RTS games.

Multiple Factions
This is a very simply feature, that comes with a lot of complications. People want to play with and against multiple factions. There should be something for everyone, to fit their style and the individual games should give diversity in play, while all staying fun.
And that’s where the problems start. The amount of matchups grows very fast with the amount of races. In a game with 1race we have 1 matchup, with 2races, we already have 3, with 3races we get 6 matchups and with 4 we get 10 matchups.
In retrospect, with the amount of RTS experience we have today, it is not a surprise that Blizzard dropped 2races during the development of WC3 (dropping from 21 to 10 MUs). And even today, many people would argue that not all of them are really balanced, at least not in an enjoyable way.
Similarly, we get (or at least have gotten) a lot of frustration in Starcraft 2 (and also Broodwar) through coinflippy or very one dimensional matchups. Who has not been annoyed by Muta vs Muta, Marines vs more Marines or even in the nonMirrors, the unavailability of whole techpaths (Terran Bio in Broodwar TvP, Protoss Stargate PvT in SC2, Zerg Ranged ZvT in SC2 come to mind).

Amount of Units per faction
This is very similar to the above. The more units you give a race, the more you have to think about how the unit can be used in every matchup and how each of the other races can deal with it.
Some of the problems can be solved via different armor classes, damage types and specific “anti Unit” or “anti Race” abilities. And even without such unit features, some just turn out to be not really useful in a matchup or overlap too much with other units. But also the other way around exists. Some units are just straight up so good in certain matchups, which the whole factions are getting designed to only support that one unit, instead of having a variety of compositions and strategies.
The argument, why the lurker was removed from SC2, as it did not play out unique and it would simply have been a factor more to balance without providing something zerg needed becomes very understandable in that light. But the removal still leaves a sour taste of not being able to play with another cool unit.
And it is not just that. With how fast Zerg can techswitch, other races already have problems being universal enough to deal with the variety of possibilities, which could occur next. Too many units, and stuff becomes unpredictable, so many interesting designs get scrapped and races are left with little variety, game after game after game.

Uniqueness of factions
In Starcraft and Warcraft, all the races are very different and unique, right?
Wrong!
If we look purely at the units, we see a nice variety of concepts. But let’s take a deeper look.
Then we see races that mine the same resources at nearly the same rate, we see races that have the same supply caps, the same “standard” antiair, “standard” air tech path, “standard” mineral only units, “standard” cloak techs, “standard” hero choices and standard early game defenses.
With an even deeper look, we can see that all of the factions have a button for a-move, all of the factions have a minimap and all of the factions require similar basic mechanics.
Now don’t get me wrong, many of those things are great features that should be in an RTS game, but let’s say we were a little less limited by designing and balancing a lot of matchups, couldn’t the races differ way more and provide more of something for everyone. Less thought about “stuff has to be similar or it becomes too hard to balance everything”, more “whatever works and is fun, demanding or whatever principles mean good design”.
Am I the only one who thought about wanting to play the creeps in a MOBA game?


I could go more into detail about other features such as the need for mirrored maps vs using matchupspecific maps for two sides that are tailored for two different races and other stuff, but I guess it’s getting pretty clear what I want to say:
Fewer factions in an RTS, give the designers room for better designed matchups.

Now what’s the downside of fewer factions, specifically two (or maybe even only one)? Well, less matchups, less variety when playing and watching, which is basically the opposite of what I was talking about and this is where pregame army choices enter the stage.
But let’s go quickly through the upsides of a Deck system:
-) less factions, but different players with different Decks create variety
-) more units per faction, but the same amount (or even less if needed) of units to think about in a specific game
-) way, way easier to balance and design and more time for the designers to balance a specific matchup, leading to better matchups
-) more uniqueness. Things like Hero vs nonHero factions become easy to balance
-) ways to provide more units, some that might be better for beginners and casuals, some that just scale really well with skill and might just be stronger, while the others only provide niche roles or metagame potential at higher levels
-) easier to balance multiplayer! Ever wondered how MOBA games can exist with that many heroes, but still provide somewhat balanced and fun games? Limits! You don’t get more than one hero, so even with 5 players the opponents’ options stay predictable. With a Deck system, you can limit down the amount of choices when the amount of players go up, maybe even up to the point, where it becomes close to a monobattle, with a few standard units, and after that only 1 specific choice per player.
-) a personal touch. You can be “the one that can play a certain unit”
-) And last but not least, many people that watch gaming look out specifically for “their faction” to play. With 3 (equally played) races, you already have a 50% chance to get a game that you might not really want to watch, as – like with sport club supporters – you might like the game, but it’s not your side that is playing.

Of course, you have to regulate decks a bit to really provide the advantages. It might be too good if you skip each and every high tech requiring unit, but instead just play with like 7 different T1 units that you can all rush, so there might have to be a limitation to pick only a few early game units.
Or some units (f.e. workers and some essential combat units like the first ones and specific universal units) should be given in any deck, to provide stability.
Also there might have to be an “emergency spot” reserved for an ingame choice, after seeing the opponents Deck. And a small pause early on, to see through the opponents unit choices and get you a gameplan. Probably there need to be matchupspecific Decks, but with only 2races, that means only 2 Decks for per player – and one of them being for a mirrormatchup in which you still will have quite some overlaps anyways.

Closing words
By no means do I want to say, that the games we have are badly designed. But I think, the RTS genre has not reached its full potential yet, mostly because they hold on to advanced principles from SC:BW and WC3 times, like multiple races, without experimenting with new options.
Most strategy games today, differ in production, unit design and resource management. What they fail, is to provide something fundamentally unique, as mass amount of factions to keep the variety high, limits everything else to very little actual design options.

**
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 17 2012 13:24 GMT
#2
Noes, you stole my blog ideas: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=352768 :o
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
August 17 2012 14:26 GMT
#3
Wait... Blizzard dropped two races from Warcraft 3's development? Which ones? This is new information to me.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 17 2012 14:31 GMT
#4
On August 17 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
Wait... Blizzard dropped two races from Warcraft 3's development? Which ones? This is new information to me.

The burning legion used to be a race, but was dropped during development. The sixth race is unknown and was dropped early in development.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-17 15:04:08
August 17 2012 15:03 GMT
#5
On August 17 2012 22:24 Grumbels wrote:
Noes, you stole my blog ideas: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=352768 :o


Well, seems like they are very similar.
Good thing, if there are more people agreeing on this idea!

On August 17 2012 23:31 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
Wait... Blizzard dropped two races from Warcraft 3's development? Which ones? This is new information to me.

The burning legion used to be a race, but was dropped during development. The sixth race is unknown and was dropped early in development.

Yeah. The original design was quite different as far as I remember the first annoucments. Weren't the Elves sometime part of the "Alliance", and the Tauren a race on their own? Or were it the trolls that were a race and they played around with dwarfs as well? I can't remember everything exactly, but it sounded a lot like a Warlords Battlecry Copy at some point
NewbieOne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Poland560 Posts
August 25 2012 18:57 GMT
#6
I think sacrificing diversity for balance can be a good thing sometimes. Actually, Warcraft 2 had few differences between the races and yet still it managed to make human unplayable vs orc in multiplayer, especially at higher speeds. But Dune 2 and Dune 2000 were not similarly afflicted.
StateofReverie
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States633 Posts
August 26 2012 04:05 GMT
#7
the balance and simplicity of the game is what makes it emmaculate
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 172
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 7187
Zeus 1647
Snow 99
Bale 25
Icarus 10
ZergMaN 9
League of Legends
JimRising 703
Counter-Strike
m0e_tv412
Other Games
summit1g12512
WinterStarcraft514
Mew2King66
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta48
• practicex 46
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1177
• HappyZerGling43
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
4h 5m
Afreeca Starleague
5h 5m
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
6h 5m
Monday Night Weeklies
11h 5m
Replay Cast
19h 5m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 5h
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
PiGosaur Cup
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
TriGGeR vs Cure
ByuN vs Rogue
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Maru vs MaxPax
BSL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
WardiTV Winter 2026
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
Escore Tournament S2: W1
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.