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The State of Casting

Blogs > MaxSteel
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MaxSteel
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
78 Posts
August 16 2012 00:54 GMT
#1
Hello Teamliquid.
I didn't think I'd make this into a blog, but for some reason I just couldn't resist writing this. I really don't want this to sound like a rant, since I know this is only my view and opinion - I doubt any caster is even going to look it it. Yet, I feel I have to talk about this.

Background
First off, I think that for the purpose of this article I have to give you some background information about how I got into SC2.
At this point, most of you would probably be expecting a story about watching some MLG, or getting hyped by friends who play this game, or something of the sort. Perhaps, given the title of this blog, you'd assume I started playing because I got hooked to the game after listening to some amazing casters casting a game of Starcraft II.
In reality, the first thing that attracted my notice were the songs.
I mean, I knew about the game itself earlier, but I never actually considered switching to it. Yet, at some point at fall 2012, around 1.5 months before the end of my first semester, I was randomly browsing Youtube, and heard this song. As it was cool, I looked for some similar songs, and stuff like this and this made for some really nice listening. Soon, I watched a few player streams casually, and realized this game is actually pretty fun. That was all a bit after I finally quit my last semi-competitive game, HoN, putting my two 1900 MMR accounts on the selves (or 1700 MMR, since I quit right after a reset).
Soon I ordered up the game, and the rest is history (or at least, unrelated to this blog).
The main point of this - me getting into the game didn't include any casters, or listening to any SC2 of them. I must also say I never played BW out of single player, so I never followed any casted games there and had no knowledge of RTS casting, or how it is.

After a bit, I watched my first SC2 tourney on Twitch. Back then I was quite bad at sc2, only still learning the basics. I hardly knew a new openings, not even talking about understanding the depth strategy or being able to rate the players' position based on their resources, positioning and so on. Back than, I was just watching the tourney, enjoying the the view, trying to remember some strats, and expanding my game knowledge slightly (mainly analysis and appraising of a players position).
As time went by, I started learning more about SC2. And I'm mainly talking not about my own builds and execution - after watching many and many live games, pro gamer streams, and tournie series, I started being able to see familiar patterns, making it possible to appraise which player has an economical advantage, or a timing attack, who's actually a bit behind or a bit ahead, and so on. Of course, my knowledge isn't game breaking, but I think I watched around 1,500 or so games up til now, that's counting pro gamer streams, big tourneys and so on. So, around 2 month ago, I could pretty surely say I could understand a game I watched and be able to conclude the players' position in the game pretty well, based on the many dozens of somewhat similar games I've seen and on my general knowledge. I'm pretty sure there are thousands of other sc2 players or spectators who can say the same, and that'd be the truth.


Part One - WCS Ukraine
Alright, I'm gonna get a bit ahead of myself here, but lets first focus this prime example of what this blog is actually about.
I was watching brwosing Twitch oneday, when I noticed WCS Ukraine was on. Initially, I turned on the English stream, but I couldn't watch it for long (for the reasons I'll talk about in the next section). So, as I understand Russian (I'm actually a Ukrainian, though I don't live there anymore... long story for another time), I decided to watch the Russian stream.
When I switched there, they were on a break between games. The atmosphere was a bit different than the English stream, but I really didn't find it anyhow preferable (or not preferable) to the English stream. Then, the game started, and this is when i suddenly felt the main difference - few things were missing. There was no overacting. There was no"politically correct" bullshit.

The casters basically said what they saw, what they understood. If the zerg went for Roach-Hydra to try to stop the toss immortal push, they didn't express 40 seconds of fake surprise for a strategy just because it's not seen every 3rd game - they basically told what it means, why it's good, and what might be the followups for each player if the Zerg holds the push. If the game was clearly won (aka, 100 supply zerg vs a pushing 120 supply toss with a completely superior tech, or one player having a huge advantage elsewhere), they didn't say sly bullshit like "this is looking very grim for the zerg, he's gonna need very good fungles to hold this" but they basically said "well, the zerg is dead" and moved on to talk about what he should've done, instead of meaninglessly over-hyping an already decided game for extra 2 minutes.


Part Two - Pro's
This is also something that happens, to an almost similar degree, when a pro-player is casting a game. He's usually going to give his true opinion, without trying to overhype the shit out of every little detail, and he's also going to say it like it is.
One good - and what's also important, recent - example is Grubby co-casting the ForGG vs MC game today at IEM - he basically said something no English professional caster would say: "I don't really like MC's opening. I respect it, but personally, I don't like it." Later that game, MC gets crushed by ForGG's Hellion drop, which Grubby specifically states is so strong versus what MC was opening with. Grubby reveals he actually played a similar ladder game versus ForGG, with the same outcome.
Never the less, it was an example of a caster with game knowledge, actually saying what's really going on, and that actually went on. No fake over-hyping, overreaction, and so on.
You can observe this when Idra is casting games as well - basically, most active pro-gamers will cast like this, on the rare occasions they do cast.
On this note, I'll move on to the next part.


Part Three - Professional Casters
And here we come to the part about those who cast most of the games - the guys we hear the most, and those on whose shoulders lies most of the casting of every major tournament. I'm talking about the professional casters.
Those will include many, noticeable names like Day[9], Khaldor, Artosis, and others.
And here comes what I personally view as a flaw in most of those big name, established casters - their casting.
To be more specific, their casting is unlike anything mentioned in the previous paragraphs.
First, I must give them their props - they are sometimes entertaining (as in, make the cast more funny), and in most times sound enthusiastic. This is, however, where the list of pure positives ends.

First of, some casters simply don't display game knowledge. Now, for a single caster this isn't necessary a bad thing, but when a duo of casters lacks (or purposely refuses to display) game knowledge, the whole stream just becomes that more dull to watch - or rather, to listen to. You might as well mute them, put on some good music, and get more arguably better entertainment.
This also becomes worse when the casters display a lack of knowledge, either of the game or of casting in general. I'm talking about the times when something strategically important is happening, but the casters simply talk about unrelated (and much less important) stuff. Sometimes, the only way you even notice this is when the above mentioned plays are reflected on the minimap or production tab, so you know it's happening, but you don't see it at all, since the casters are talking about something else and the camera is there. There could be some intense micro battle of 2 mediveks +16 marines versus roaches/zerglings in the Zerg main, while a main battle was happening somewhere else. All you saw was a green dot moving on the minimap, and optionally some "oh, it seems like that greater spire was taken out" or "wow, apperantly there was a drop in the main" by the casters way after all the action has passed. The casters simply lack the multitasking to follow multiple battles, which is way lower than the actual multitasking needed to execute those moves. Mainly, bad game knowledge also translates into poor observing (though it doesn't guarantee good observing skills if you're good at the game).
Also, while this is also connected to the next part, they'd often say things like "wow, look how well X deflected Y's attack. He's definitely pulling ahead right now!" whereas you can clearly see he just deflected a single wave with relative cost efficiency, while his opponent still has a way better economy and/or tech. This is one example of either lack of game knowledge, over-hyping, or both.

Second, the overreacting, over-hyping, "political correctness", and all this type of bullshit. This one of the things that makes me, personally, tune off some streams.
I can't stand it when, for example, a zerg is facing the final push by terran, and not in a close situation, but in something completely unwindable (but that includes infestors and/or BL's and/or banelings). This is clearly a finished game, and anybody good can see it, yet the casters go on with the usual bullshit ("this is really looking grim", "he'll need great fungals", "he'll need very good baneling hits"), while the game is CLEARLY FUCKING OVER. I'm not talking about the close games - I'm talking about when that 140 supply Terran (with vikings, Thors, 3/3 bio and mediveks) comes to finish that 100 supply zerg with some lings/5 infestors/4 broodlords, and a just-rebuilt economy, which is still twice slower than the Terrans'. Oh, and with worse position. That game is fucking over, yet the casters keep acting as if the Zerg still has a chance, whereas it's been 3 minutes since the game has been decided (say, by a good engagement plus two different drops in the same time, to ravage the zerg eco and production).
This also shows in a lesser degree, acting like a single good engagement has suddenly make the player game that imaginable "momentum", and be in an advantage, whereas he hasn't been able to gain any ground and his economy is still worse - all he did is trade efficiently, which wasn't nearly enough at that point, thus he still lost.
You'll also see casters turn off HP bars because they're "ugly", while NEVER mentioning important facts based on HP (or not clicking over the low HP units in the strategically relevant times), thus simply leaving the spectator half-blind without making up for it with the casting.
Guess I could continue, but if you didn't yet notice all this yourself, you need to but take a look at said most recent games, and you'll see that's how the casting goes.
I don't know how it is in other casting scenes, but this is currently the picture of the English casting scene - and personally, I just don't like it.



So, I guess this is the end of this blog, and of my rant. It really has no point, since I don't realistically think any caster would change his approach on regard of what is written here - but I simply had to say this.
Happy discussion.



TL;DR
Don't comment if you haven't read all of this. The things I wrote are connected, for the most part. Read it. Or at least, if you give your opinion without reading, state so.

****
Herpaderp
LightTemplar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland481 Posts
August 16 2012 01:37 GMT
#2
Pretty much sums up how I feel a lot of the time. Hearing Grubby cast today only highlighted this fact. If I didn't love him so much as a player I'd really miss him as a caster. At HSC sure there was a few players who while having the knowledge didn't quite have the right presence to cast there was a lot who were able to handle both the knowledge and the presentation really well and it was probably what made the tournament so good and this is being seen elsewhere particularaly at IEM where they seem to be eager to get players to cast often (I really enjoyed PiG and MoonGlade today as well). I hope this trend continues.
"Thoughts are always there, the mind can't stop" - Grubby
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-16 02:15:05
August 16 2012 02:10 GMT
#3
I agree with most points, unfortunately most viewers are about the play by play and hype (however unwarranted/fake it may be), which leads to people like Husky, Day[9], and some really low level players being the favorites among the community. Players casting is ideal, but they are so busy with practice and warming up that they can't always do it, which really is a shame.

We need more Rotterdam and Apollo type casters, GM level players and charismatic.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
August 16 2012 02:43 GMT
#4
Criticizing Day9 is hard because he has so many fans (myself included). What bothers me is that his excitement was pretty much always genuine before SC2, and before he got "mainstream". That sounds ridiculous I know, but that's what I think happened when he went from SCBW fan to SC2 professional corporate 6-figure Day9(tm) CEO Sean Plott. I watched every single SCBW daily and I don't recall him being obviously fake.

Don't get me wrong, I like Day9, and he's actually one of the few casters that I can listen to without hating life - and hell, I've even come to terms with the fact that Day9's going to occasionally get overly excited about mundane bullshit, because I know he's actually doing it to keep the casuals entertained. Day9 knows the game better than I ever could, by a fair margin. However, when less knowledgeable casters scream in my ears about random crap, it just feels like they have no clue what the fuck's happening.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
DRTnOOber
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
New Zealand476 Posts
August 16 2012 02:50 GMT
#5
Seem as you seem to enjoy the SC2 music scene (as I do) you might be interested in some of the stuff Viva la Dirt League is doing:

(my favourite)
(our latest one)
(our original release back in 2011)

Fantastic post, well written.
But I'm off creep... and so I slow down, what are hellions doing here? I don't belong here...
Ktk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)753 Posts
August 16 2012 03:16 GMT
#6
This is a rant.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 16 2012 03:28 GMT
#7
It's funny because the things you like about casting are often the things I dislike. I hate when people say "this is gg", because normally it's obvious anyway. Instead of tearing apart the player who messed up, they should be making the better player sound like an awesome amazing player. Too often I see casters who say "this is gg, X player really screwed that up, blah blah" when they should be shouting "PLAYER Y HAS TAKEN A MASSIVE LEAD WITH HIS SKILLFUL PLAY THERE, PLAYER X STANDS NO CHANCE AGAINST THIS AMAZING DISPLAY OF SKILL". The Koreans from OGN cast like that and it's much more enjoyable to watch. They also provide high level analysis during the slow times of the game, but the main thing is that they're making a story about heroes, not a sad tale of how Player X messed up.

Games being over after a big battle is something that I feel is a SCII problem, more than a casting thing. Most games after big battles in BW are not immediately over, as it is much harder to actually crush an opponent; in BW it's (often, not always) possible to come back from a lost battle to win the game.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
thehepp
Profile Joined December 2011
United States67 Posts
August 16 2012 07:02 GMT
#8
i mute almost all streams with casters because their game knowledge is usually very low. pisses me off when a guy whos getting paid to cast hardly knows anything about strategy and who is ahead
WindWolf
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Sweden11767 Posts
August 16 2012 07:31 GMT
#9
@Casters game knowledge:
One (of many) reason why enjoyed MaddeLisk's casting at Närcon was that she was able to admit the she wasn't the perfect caster. She said that she wasn't a good observer, so she let her co-caster Morrow take control over the camera instead (and he did a good job). And there where one time where Madde said that went something like "X is a bit slow on upgrades", but then Morrow said that "I think it's pretty standard" in a tone that he wanted Madde to learn that this is one thing she can improve on.

I don't want casters to be machines, I want they to be human and I'm fine if they make occasional mistakes/occasionally misses action on the map.

One problem is when the observer doesn't listen to what the casters say. This is one thing that disturbed me during WCS Korea preliminaries (Where Wolfdor asked for simple things) and IPL 4

@Overreacting casters etc.
This is mostly a personal preference of what you like. Some people may like it, others may not
EZ4ENCE
Bobo_XIII
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
United States429 Posts
August 16 2012 07:45 GMT
#10
The quality of casting is the real elephant in the room that people need to make more noise about, for sure. Cloud brought this up a few months back in that vlog he did, but the reaction was really mixed about his opinions. He definitely spit some truth though, and with peoples' knowledge slowly becoming better each passing day, I think the overall demand for the quality of casting will be higher.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, MaxSteel, but Birdie highlights the biggest flaw in my opinion. When Bitter won't shut the fuck up about how terrible of a decision a dude made in game in every game that he casts, it makes muting necessary to enjoy the game and appreciate the players' skill and decisions for what they are instead of how much they suck according to caster x's opinion.
There's a hole in the world like a great black pit, and the vermin of the world inhabit it... and its morals aren't worth what a pig could spit, and it goes by the name of Reddit.
LucidityDark
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom139 Posts
August 16 2012 08:58 GMT
#11
What you seem to be talking about as good is analytical casting, mentioning all the facts and telling it as it is. While this is great for some people, others aren't interested or don't understand what is being said and these are either new to the game or just casual players. I personally got into the game when I saw casts for a tournament by TotalBiscuit on his channel who casted with Apollo in them. I had no idea what Apollo was talking about (not having the game at the time) but the play by play casting by TB got me excited and was almost the entire reason I got them game.

What I'm saying is that different types of people enjoy different types of casting mainly based on their own experience with the game. I now enjoy both types of casting. The reason play by play casters don't act as if the game is over is to not kill the excitement for newer players. Analytical casting is favoured more by this community because Team Liquid is inhabited mostly by people who are knowledgeble of the game, but I also see that there maybe be a lot of people who don't browse forums like these but still watch Starcraft 2 casts for enjoyment. Basically, each type of casting have their pros and cons but there is a place for both of them. Also, when a casting duo (such as Apollo and TotalBiscuit) cast together, you can end up getting the best of both worlds.
MaxSteel
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
78 Posts
August 16 2012 10:09 GMT
#12
@Luci
This is exactly one of the main things I was saying - if there is a casting duo, let one be a play-by-play if you want, but at least keep one caster with actual game knowledge there as well. I truly enjoy TB, and not for his SC2 casts but for other vids in his channel (I mean come on, you can listen to his voice forever), but if even he was casting a tourney with Day[9] (I'm giving this example as it'd probably be a as a community favorite duo as it can get), it'll most likely get less bearable with every passing game, and if it's more than a one day tourney, I don't think I'll be able to not mute the sound for the last few hours.
If it was TB + Morrow, or TB+dApollo.. hell, even TB+Incontrol, as his own knowledge is pretty good, that'd probably be an amazing duo to listen to.
Herpaderp
Incze
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Romania2058 Posts
August 16 2012 12:29 GMT
#13
This is exactly why IdrA is my favorite caster. He says everything that needs to be said, no added bullshit.
Religion: Buckethead
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