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Why should I play ladder any more? - Page 2

Blogs > graNite
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pestilenz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Denmark379 Posts
July 16 2012 17:59 GMT
#21
I do not like balance whining...

But if you really want some new approach to the game then I suggest that you switch race and start over.
You can attack with this?!
sieksdekciw
Profile Joined April 2012
240 Posts
July 16 2012 18:16 GMT
#22
On July 16 2012 20:46 graNite wrote:
Why should I play ladder any more?

Dear TL community, please tell me why I should play the 1v1 ladder any more. I am a terran player at the Master league and currently I see no point in playing 1v1 ladder.

Where I am now:
Currently I am playing a lot of 2v2s with friends, just for fun. I am watching many tournaments, because I like SC2.

The story so far:
+ Show Spoiler +
I started SC2 as my first RTS with its release, started in Bronze league and fought my way up to Masters. I played Terran from the first game because I knew it was the right race to play.
I did massive 1v1 sessions with average 8 games per day over one and a half years, and I liked it a lot. Recently, with the last change that have been made to the game, I lost the fun playing 1v1 to compete with others.


TvT
+ Show Spoiler +
I always liked it and like it now, too. Even when there was the time of tankchess, I liked the positional battles. Like in every other matchup too, the metagame trend is going towards more bio and less tanks to be more aggressive, because, most of the times, you can not win a highlevel game with defense only.
Nothing more can be said about a mirror matchup because when both players start with the same conditions, the game is fair.


TvP
+ Show Spoiler +
I bought SC2 because I liked the idea of micro and macro, and TvP is so much micro (on the Terran side at least; I don’t want to take anything away from Protosses, but in the late game, they have to micro so much less than the terran players.)
The TvP matchup is one of the fairest (non-mirror) matchups in my opinion, until it goes to the lategame. The Terran reward for microing perfectly all day is staying alive until the next warpin.
I loved this matchup so much because of the amount of micro I could do in the midgame, but nowadays the Protoss just turtles and a-moves his deathball. A few storms here and there, maybe some feedbacks, but these actions are the only ones you can call micro. Colossi don’t need to be microed, Zealots can not be microed.

The Terran has to focus the Colossi with his Vikings, stim and then micro the bioball against Zealots and storm, while dropping perfect EMPs. If one of these things is not perfect, you lose the game because the Zealots connect and deal too much damage; or the Collossi stay alive and deal too much damage; or the Templars stay alive and full of energy and storm everything, even your medivacs; and without them you can not kite the Zealots. Kiting is a central point in TvP because Zealots deal too much damage to your biounits and THEY JUST DO NOT DIE. when they are fully upgraded, they don’t care about EMPs or kiting, the only thing you can do is building Marines. Sadly, protosses do not only build zealots but units with splash damage, too, and everything kills marines so fast that you can not use marines to deal with zealots specifically without microing as if you had 17 hands. At this point, please remember I am a casual player and not a pro player, so I have only 2 hands.

Zealot warpins or runbys are so strong that I have to bring my entire army back for defense because I can’t micro my new units because I have more important things to do like microing my main army or macroing.

The army you build up as a Terran player is not scary at all: there is nothing Protoss has to react to: Terran has to react to Colossi with Vikings, to Templars with Ghosts. What has Terran that Protoss has to react to?

As the game goes to the lategame, the game becomes unfair for the Terran player. Blizzard knows that and says “you have to do damage in the midgame to stay even”. That is the same statement as mine, but said more nicely to not reveal the unfairness.


TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +

At the moment, I just allin every game and it works 80% of the time because that allin is so strong (One Barracks, two Factories, maybe I will make a guide someday) and Zerg players are greedier than ever with the recent changes.

I love the micro involved, that’s why i do it. Moreover, Blizzard wants us to allin:
Terran has no good lategame army except the “Skyterran” in the superlategame with Raven-Battlecruiser-Viking, which can be killed in seconds by chain fungal and is very hard to transition to because you have too few Starports and no upgrades for it. Other than that, the current metagame trend goes towards less Tanks, bio play is getting more popular: you need less upgrades, you are more mobile and you can replace your army faster when everything died because of chain fungal.
Tanks are getting replaced because it is easier to split your bio against marines than getting tanks in a good position to kill banelings and infestors, and here is why:

The maps are really big; with the recent queen change, the Zerg player gets more queens earlier on, therefore has more creep and because of the creep on the map the terran push is way slower and gets shut down more easily when he has Tanks. Tanks need to be sieged when the attack comes because the first seconds of a fight are the deciding point: when there are too many lings after the first few hits the terran just gets surrounded and killed.

I don’t say it is currently impossible to beat a zerg, but it is very hard when you want to do it after the midgame mark.

Infestors are also too strong: their “counter”, Ghosts, got nerfed so hard that not even pro players use them in this matchup any more. In my opinion, the Ghost or the Raven should always play a role in a Terran matchup because they are the only Terran spellcasters; but the Ghost is too slow and its range and EMP radius too small to do something against Infestors. Moreover, if you have energy left after you used your main spell as a Zerg player (fungal) you can use the rest of the energy for Infested Terrans. I like that idea, but as a Terran player, the spell you can use after EMP is snipe which deals 25 damage ( to Not-Infestor units). 2 snipes for a zergling seem more than unfair; it should be rewarding to be used on the big units like Broodlords and Ultralisks again, because that would be a good way to deal with the techswitches. And two snipes for a single Infestor is just too much, even Protoss has a better way to deal with them (just a single feedback).

When Ghosts were used in TvZ lategame, Zerg players said is was unfair that Terran can kill everything with them and I had to laugh; Terran is not the reactionary race. Terran can not techswitch as easy as Zerg can do and Terran needs extra upgrades for its lategame units.

The infestor can kill everything (like the Ghost did), too, and even better. It has area damage, detection, can burrow and - the unfairest attribute in the game - chain fungal: when you make one small mistake, you can be fungaled to death. Medivacs can not escape, Marine groups can not escape while not even being able to shoot at the Infestors at all and even Ghosts get detected and fungaled to death. Tanks also can not siege nor run away.

Again, like in TvP, the game becomes unfair when it goes to the lategame and “Terran did no damage in the midgame to stay even.”

You can not use a progamer as an example how to play, because it is a completly different game they play: much more apm they can use, specific timed builds strike at a timing and preparation to snipe a certain player on a certain map are things I can not use as a casual player on the ladder.


With all this unfairness, why should I be playing the ladder to compete any more? The game is unfair when you are a Terran player and I don’t want to start a game I lost at the race selection screen!



Thanks for reading; please no balance discussion unless you are directly answering my problems with the balance or proving me wrong.

agreed 100% with everything

On the bright side, when they nerf zerg and toss, you would jump one league, and all of them will get demoted, so keep playing.
ShivaN
Profile Joined January 2007
United States933 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-16 18:53:20
July 16 2012 18:37 GMT
#23
On July 16 2012 23:36 jeeeeohn wrote:
Stop playing if you're not enjoying the game. I'm curious to know why this is always a crisis. How has Starcraft 2 hardwired us to keep playing so thoroughly that the idea of quitting becomes this blasphemous heresy?

Uh maybe it's because people don't WANT to quit, but rather are feeling forced to due to Blizzard's awesome idea of "asymmetrical" balance. I played BW for over 10 years and have played SC2 since day 1 of beta, playing Terran only all these years, and I'm in the exact same boat as him, as I'm sure many many other Terrans are. I quit totally after the last patch, not because I really wanted too, but just how unfun 2/3 of the matchups are to play imo. It's too disheartening to play this game in it's current form if you're not top Korean-level players.
_mmK
Profile Joined May 2012
Sweden10 Posts
July 16 2012 20:04 GMT
#24
On July 17 2012 03:37 ShivaN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 23:36 jeeeeohn wrote:
Stop playing if you're not enjoying the game. I'm curious to know why this is always a crisis. How has Starcraft 2 hardwired us to keep playing so thoroughly that the idea of quitting becomes this blasphemous heresy?

Uh maybe it's because people don't WANT to quit, but rather are feeling forced to due to Blizzard's awesome idea of "asymmetrical" balance. I played BW for over 10 years and have played SC2 since day 1 of beta, playing Terran only all these years, and I'm in the exact same boat as him, as I'm sure many many other Terrans are. I quit totally after the last patch, not because I really wanted too, but just how unfun 2/3 of the matchups are to play imo. It's too disheartening to play this game in it's current form if you're not top Korean-level players.


I totally agree with you though I have spent soooooo many hours into this game and I love but yeah, it feels like blizz is pushing me away from terran. And the other races are just plain boring for me sooo it's 2v2's for me if any. And when I watch tournaments I root for terran but when terran is not seen that often it get's boring to watch, like watching a fotboll game between two teams who you don't know anything about and you just meh... it's the same feeling.
Xyik
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada728 Posts
July 16 2012 20:19 GMT
#25
Good, I don't want to play PvT anymore either.
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
July 16 2012 21:01 GMT
#26
So funny how few people actually read my text and respond accordingly to my question for a reason to or not to play any more.

I don't want to start a thread about balance, I didn't want to whine, I just wanted to tell you all my feelings about the current state of Terran and why I don't enjoy playing 1v1 at the moment.

To do that, I needed to point out my view of the balance, of course, but just to give you an idea how it got that way, not to whine and cry "omg my marines need more health!!" ...

You guys should not respond to a thread when you have nothing to contribute.

---

Thanks for all the good responses, but waiting for HOTS is not a valid option, because I want to play now and nobody says it will be fair when HOTS comes out. On the other side, I don't think Blizzard will patch balance until then although they know the balance problems (for example with the lategame zealots).
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
July 16 2012 21:49 GMT
#27
On July 17 2012 06:01 graNite wrote:
So funny how few people actually read my text and respond accordingly to my question for a reason to or not to play any more.

I don't want to start a thread about balance, I didn't want to whine, I just wanted to tell you all my feelings about the current state of Terran and why I don't enjoy playing 1v1 at the moment.

To do that, I needed to point out my view of the balance, of course, but just to give you an idea how it got that way, not to whine and cry "omg my marines need more health!!" ...

You guys should not respond to a thread when you have nothing to contribute.

---

Thanks for all the good responses, but waiting for HOTS is not a valid option, because I want to play now and nobody says it will be fair when HOTS comes out. On the other side, I don't think Blizzard will patch balance until then although they know the balance problems (for example with the lategame zealots).

ya, if I had your 80% winrate against Zerg early game I would scream unfair as well. Must be hard.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
July 16 2012 22:01 GMT
#28
On July 17 2012 06:49 Integra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2012 06:01 graNite wrote:
So funny how few people actually read my text and respond accordingly to my question for a reason to or not to play any more.

I don't want to start a thread about balance, I didn't want to whine, I just wanted to tell you all my feelings about the current state of Terran and why I don't enjoy playing 1v1 at the moment.

To do that, I needed to point out my view of the balance, of course, but just to give you an idea how it got that way, not to whine and cry "omg my marines need more health!!" ...

You guys should not respond to a thread when you have nothing to contribute.

---

Thanks for all the good responses, but waiting for HOTS is not a valid option, because I want to play now and nobody says it will be fair when HOTS comes out. On the other side, I don't think Blizzard will patch balance until then although they know the balance problems (for example with the lategame zealots).

ya, if I had your 80% winrate against Zerg early game I would scream unfair as well. Must be hard.

Winrate has nothing to do with having fun
Platinum Support GOD
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
July 16 2012 23:28 GMT
#29
On July 17 2012 03:37 ShivaN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 23:36 jeeeeohn wrote:
Stop playing if you're not enjoying the game. I'm curious to know why this is always a crisis. How has Starcraft 2 hardwired us to keep playing so thoroughly that the idea of quitting becomes this blasphemous heresy?

Uh maybe it's because people don't WANT to quit, but rather are feeling forced to due to Blizzard's awesome idea of "asymmetrical" balance. I played BW for over 10 years and have played SC2 since day 1 of beta, playing Terran only all these years, and I'm in the exact same boat as him, as I'm sure many many other Terrans are. I quit totally after the last patch, not because I really wanted too, but just how unfun 2/3 of the matchups are to play imo. It's too disheartening to play this game in it's current form if you're not top Korean-level players.


Exact same fucking deal with me. Its just no fun anymore to lose to awful players because I made 1 mistake that ended the game while they can make several and be fine. Shit ain't fair.
I am Terranfying.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
July 17 2012 00:00 GMT
#30
On July 16 2012 21:44 SnowFantasy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 21:30 PuddingTiger wrote:
yeah this is just one big balance whine. also check out the data here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786

In masters and above the game is very closely balanced. There is never more than a 60/40 split during any timing window in any matchup. Yes, you will lose a few more games in late game TvP, but it will be 40/60 split, not like you will lose every game. If you really can't deal with losing 1/10 late game TvPs/TvZs that you would otherwise have won had the game been perfecftly balanced, you can't really claim to have much passion for the game anyway. If you are worrying about the game being unfair rather than just doing your best and trying to improve then you will probably lose more.

If you really want to be given a reason to play the game rather than just vent your anger over balance issues? Consider the fact that perhaps your anger at losing is making the game feel more unfair than it acutally is. It is easier to whine about balance rather than accept you got outplayed and try to improve, which, most of the time, is what will have happened.


60/40 is ridiculously imbalanced.


By the standards we're used to, maybe.

Even an overall 60/40 split implies that the top players of a race are capable of consistently beating lesser and mid-tier players, but will have difficulties when facing players on their level or slightly below it, so it's hardly the end of the world. A 60/40 split for specific points and situations in the game shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is.
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
July 17 2012 16:29 GMT
#31
On July 17 2012 09:00 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 21:44 SnowFantasy wrote:
On July 16 2012 21:30 PuddingTiger wrote:
yeah this is just one big balance whine. also check out the data here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786

In masters and above the game is very closely balanced. There is never more than a 60/40 split during any timing window in any matchup. Yes, you will lose a few more games in late game TvP, but it will be 40/60 split, not like you will lose every game. If you really can't deal with losing 1/10 late game TvPs/TvZs that you would otherwise have won had the game been perfecftly balanced, you can't really claim to have much passion for the game anyway. If you are worrying about the game being unfair rather than just doing your best and trying to improve then you will probably lose more.

If you really want to be given a reason to play the game rather than just vent your anger over balance issues? Consider the fact that perhaps your anger at losing is making the game feel more unfair than it acutally is. It is easier to whine about balance rather than accept you got outplayed and try to improve, which, most of the time, is what will have happened.


60/40 is ridiculously imbalanced.


By the standards we're used to, maybe.

Even an overall 60/40 split implies that the top players of a race are capable of consistently beating lesser and mid-tier players, but will have difficulties when facing players on their level or slightly below it, so it's hardly the end of the world. A 60/40 split for specific points and situations in the game shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is.


Well it sure can be annoying when you're on the 40% side of things.

Besides that, numbers only mean so much. What is actually very annoying is the actual gameplay : having to resort to cheese / constantly harass or pray for a mistake of your opponent to hope for a win, in other words, feeling always behind and compelled to be very active to stand a chance.
Resistance ain't futile
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-17 17:01:56
July 17 2012 16:53 GMT
#32
Hahaha good troll post. Wait, what? First off, balance whining. Secondly, asking us for permission to stop playing ladder (he really just wants to bitch). And then you have a 80% win rate and tvz and want to nerf zerg? Ahahahahaha, you're funny, you

EDIT:
All you guys bitching about how you are losing to people worse than you, stop thinking that. If you want to improve, just say that if you lose to someone, they are better than you, whether or not they are.
And if the game isn't fun, don't play it. With HOTS right around the corner you guys can start playing again, or just play 2s or something
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
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