• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:19
CEST 21:19
KST 04:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League23Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.162Rollback Netcode in Brood War1265.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202624Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0
StarCraft 2
General
Best Cryptocurrency Recovery Company To Recover Server Blocker Terran AddOns placement SCII needs to put more weight on strategy and tact How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts
Brood War
General
Rollback Netcode in Brood War GG Lan Fest Sofia, Bulgaria [this November] [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos [Recap] Hive ZvZ in MonstarZ vs Dreams [ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [ASL22] Grand Finals 2v2v2v2 Tournament Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread The Chess Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Link Between Gaming and …
TrAiDoS
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10592 users

My thoughts on the recent TvZ results

Blogs > thegeek574
Post a Reply
thegeek574
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States29 Posts
July 08 2012 01:44 GMT
#1
Hello all,
I would like to just put out some thoughts that I have had on the results that we have seen recently regarding the hellion, queen changes, and especially the phenomenon we see quite commonly now, which is that most, if not all, Terrans are eliminated from a tournament before they reach the quarter finals. Having just seen the fall of the Terrans in Homestory cup, I was struck by the massive change that has come upon us in that Terrans, who once dominated almost every tournament, are now hard pressed to put up similar results. Even MVP, who is not only a 4-time GSL champion but also the most recent, was not able to make his way through the 2 Zergs in his group. While they both were good, neither one of them would most likely have been expected to defeat MVP. With this in mind, let's take a look at what has happened along the way from a while ago that changed everything in this matchup. The two main parts that we will look at is the more obvious, which is the essential shutdown of the early game hellion harass against Zerg, and the less obvious, which I think is the utilization of the queen as a support unit.

(Note: I played Zerg for a while, and then took a long break and started playing Terran. I then switched back to Zerg, and then tried Protoss. I am really not that specific as to what race I root for as much as I root for the player that I feel is the most skilled. Also, I don't want this devolving into a group balance whine. Balance can often be determined by trends of play as much as by specific units. One more note: I am basing the statements off of what I have seen from pro players, not what I have seen on the ladder, because I am silver :D)

First of all, the hellion. Let's take a little ride down memory lane and think back to when 2 blue-flame hellions could roast a drone line in a single shot with day[9] yelling "LINE EM UP!!!" in the background. Then we saw the damage that blue flame wreaked reduced in patch 1.4.0 so that workers would not die in 2 shots, but 3. While this basically relegated the blue flame upgrade to mech builds where hellions were used as a mineral dump, the hellion was still employed extensively in the early game to destroyed mineral lines with mass numbers of reactored hellions. This ruined many a Zerg’s day. However, something huge happened. That thing was the queen change brought about in the balance update after patch 1.4.3 BU. That brings us to our next section.

The queen is a unit that is used in almost every game of Starcraft that involves a Zerg player. they massively increase the efficiency of a hatchery, lair or hive, to the point that they essentially become necessary. However, their skills other than inject larvae were mostly left to sit in a dark corner, and were rarely employed, even by Zergs. Creep spread was the thing that was used more to show that a player had leftover APM and less that he was actually relying upon it. Transfuse was also rarely used, except for the very occasional player that decided queen-ultra was a good strategy and used the queen's transfuse to create the immortal ultralisk (see what I did there?). That also changed, however, when 1.4.3 BU rolled around. This brings us to the next section.

After 1.4.3 BU, the intersection of queen and hellion changed from a speedy hunter dodging around the slow guardian of the drone line to get inside and have a BBQ, to a hunter who was suddenly met with a rain of projectiles from a guardian that no longer needed to move in most cases. Zergs soon figured that more of a good thing must be better, and so they started using 4 queen and 6 queen openings to essentially shut down early harass. It did that shockingly well. Hellions were soon almost never used. When they were, they rarely justified their cost. The queen changed the harass game tremendously. However, players also noticed something else. They began to notice that creep spread was pretty good. Being able to have a creep tumor blocking your opponent's expansions was pretty useful. Knowing where someone was on the map at all times was also pretty cool. Soon, creep spread was a normal thing. Massive creep lanes were, and still are, a common sight. The queen began to justify it's cost more and more.

All this combined to change the way that the matchup worked. The Zerg knew that a push was coming almost after it left the enemy base in many cases, and even early game pushes were sometimes sited before they were on the Zerg half of the map. The Terran not only had to attack just to kill creep, but they also had to waste precious OC energy and engage more and more where Zerg would have a speed advantage. Combined with the shutdown of the early game harass, specifically from hellions, Zergs gained a huge advantage.

I would just like to wrap this whole thing up with a final thought. I think that if the queen change was rolled back tomorrow, I think very little would change. Players are beginning to realize the potential of the queen, and I think that the range was only the final straw that pushed them into widespread use.

These are just some thoughts that I came up with. Let me know what you think. Just to emphasize, I suck at the game. I watch the pros a lot though, and so I make my judgments off their play for the most part.

Thanks for reading,
Geek

***
one fish, two fish, red fish, NUKE FISH!!!! from the nuke funday monday
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
July 08 2012 02:41 GMT
#2
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
July 08 2012 03:34 GMT
#3
On July 08 2012 11:41 ninazerg wrote:
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.


Someone is pissed off today.

I don't mean to be patronizing, but as he is a silver player, he likely has low understanding of the deep strategy of the game so all he has to base his opinion on is his own experience (which he omitted) and what he sees on streams.

I tried to be as inoffensive as possible, but I probably did it again.
boomudead1
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States186 Posts
July 08 2012 03:49 GMT
#4
doesnt matter if hes silver or gm. he has a points. but the topics been around for a long time. and no one cares. i also agree that queen range upgrade is not needed. for the patch. overlord speed is fine imo
Im_hell
Profile Joined March 2012
United States16 Posts
July 08 2012 05:24 GMT
#5
it feels like you described hellions as drone killer, but its main role is to deny creep spread.
im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but i just get annoyed when people think hellion as a suiciding drone killer
serge
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Russian Federation142 Posts
July 08 2012 06:01 GMT
#6
1 star because of sub-par balance whine. This is the Blogs section, feel free to whine as much as you want here.

Im_hell you seem to be the hellion authority. I will vote for you to be hellion president.
I am Malkovich.
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 06:10:49
July 08 2012 06:02 GMT
#7
On July 08 2012 11:41 ninazerg wrote:
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.


Nobody's talking about life here, expect you. Terran has been raped to the ground. Actually, where are the Terrans? I watch the streams, IPL, Zotac, and anything I grab, and I don't see no Terrans ?

Look at some "lesser" competitive terran play (jinro, qxc), you can tell their frustration. People have been saying to adapt, but just look at any Terran successful enough to reach the tournament level : it's always mass MMM, in every matchup. I don't even appreciate watching competitive Terran anymore, so annoying to see how reductive the gameplay has became.

Honest question : could anyone give me the name of a competitive Terran that has been having "convincing wins" (not in mirror) in the recent months? It would give me some heart back.


Edit : i'm slightly off topic... bare with my despair... on topic, the new improved queens are not only effective vs hellions but having more queens also nullifies any (already perilous) banshee harass, which leaves the Terran with... MMM, fucking A.
Resistance ain't futile
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 07:13:59
July 08 2012 07:13 GMT
#8
Problem why no one cares about this is that Terran is getting far form ROLF stomped vs Zerg.

Terran is still winning games, they are however having problems reaching the semi and final brackets though, as in it was not as easy as before. Further most games of the Zerg doesn't go 2-0 to the Zerg, most of the time its a 1-2 where the terran takes a couple of games before losing the series, allot of the games where the Zerg advances the Zerg only goes 2-3 queens total, so the queen buff doesn't really matter in those games.

And another reason why we don't see any Terran in the higher stages is because they don't seem to be able to beat Protoss players at all. If anything the Terran vs Protoss MU seems very hard for Terran atm.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Im_hell
Profile Joined March 2012
United States16 Posts
July 08 2012 17:25 GMT
#9
On July 08 2012 16:13 Integra wrote:
Problem why no one cares about this is that Terran is getting far form ROLF stomped vs Zerg.

Terran is still winning games, they are however having problems reaching the semi and final brackets though, as in it was not as easy as before. Further most games of the Zerg doesn't go 2-0 to the Zerg, most of the time its a 1-2 where the terran takes a couple of games before losing the series, allot of the games where the Zerg advances the Zerg only goes 2-3 queens total, so the queen buff doesn't really matter in those games.

And another reason why we don't see any Terran in the higher stages is because they don't seem to be able to beat Protoss players at all. If anything the Terran vs Protoss MU seems very hard for Terran atm.


i agree with him, terrans not getting absolutely owned by zerg, but its still rare then terran win vs zerg (series not single MU)
he mentioned that zerg wins in 3-2 most of the game, but its more like 3-1 and those are when its a terran favored maps or
when terran successfully cheese or when zerg makes a mistake.
And its true that terran is having problems vs toss, too. i think reason behind that is because in lotta maps is toss favored in TvP (no open space and no space to drop well)
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL Open Qualifier
04:00
Pro & Gosu - Last Chance #1
LiquipediaDiscussion
AI Arena Tournament
01:00
Swiss - Round 6
Laughngamez YouTube
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 59
MindelVK 26
EmSc Tv 17
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 21633
Shuttle 533
White-Ra 167
Mind 86
HiyA 84
Dewaltoss 82
910 54
ZZZero.O 42
Barracks 38
soO 16
Dota 2
canceldota118
League of Legends
JimRising 359
Counter-Strike
fl0m4808
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby2628
Other Games
summit1g6577
FrodaN762
B2W.Neo665
Khaldor498
Cr1tdota477
byalli454
Liquid`Hasu261
KnowMe248
crisheroes155
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick762
StarCraft 2
angryscii 41
EmSc Tv 17
EmSc2Tv 17
[ Show 24 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 74
• StrangeGG 59
• Adnapsc2 36
• 3DClanTV 30
• Reevou 9
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach39
• blackmanpl 18
• 80smullet 15
• Azhi_Dahaki6
• Michael_bg 6
• Pr0nogo 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4567
League of Legends
• Nemesis2855
• Jankos2160
Other Games
• imaqtpie647
• Shiphtur397
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 41m
OSC
17h 41m
IPSL
20h 41m
BSL Open Qualifier
23h 41m
WardiTV Weekly
1d 15h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
[ Show More ]
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HCC Season 3
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.