• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:43
CET 10:43
KST 18:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !3Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win2Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win Did they add GM to 2v2? RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [ASL20] Grand Finals
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3255 users

My thoughts on the recent TvZ results

Blogs > thegeek574
Post a Reply
thegeek574
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States29 Posts
July 08 2012 01:44 GMT
#1
Hello all,
I would like to just put out some thoughts that I have had on the results that we have seen recently regarding the hellion, queen changes, and especially the phenomenon we see quite commonly now, which is that most, if not all, Terrans are eliminated from a tournament before they reach the quarter finals. Having just seen the fall of the Terrans in Homestory cup, I was struck by the massive change that has come upon us in that Terrans, who once dominated almost every tournament, are now hard pressed to put up similar results. Even MVP, who is not only a 4-time GSL champion but also the most recent, was not able to make his way through the 2 Zergs in his group. While they both were good, neither one of them would most likely have been expected to defeat MVP. With this in mind, let's take a look at what has happened along the way from a while ago that changed everything in this matchup. The two main parts that we will look at is the more obvious, which is the essential shutdown of the early game hellion harass against Zerg, and the less obvious, which I think is the utilization of the queen as a support unit.

(Note: I played Zerg for a while, and then took a long break and started playing Terran. I then switched back to Zerg, and then tried Protoss. I am really not that specific as to what race I root for as much as I root for the player that I feel is the most skilled. Also, I don't want this devolving into a group balance whine. Balance can often be determined by trends of play as much as by specific units. One more note: I am basing the statements off of what I have seen from pro players, not what I have seen on the ladder, because I am silver :D)

First of all, the hellion. Let's take a little ride down memory lane and think back to when 2 blue-flame hellions could roast a drone line in a single shot with day[9] yelling "LINE EM UP!!!" in the background. Then we saw the damage that blue flame wreaked reduced in patch 1.4.0 so that workers would not die in 2 shots, but 3. While this basically relegated the blue flame upgrade to mech builds where hellions were used as a mineral dump, the hellion was still employed extensively in the early game to destroyed mineral lines with mass numbers of reactored hellions. This ruined many a Zerg’s day. However, something huge happened. That thing was the queen change brought about in the balance update after patch 1.4.3 BU. That brings us to our next section.

The queen is a unit that is used in almost every game of Starcraft that involves a Zerg player. they massively increase the efficiency of a hatchery, lair or hive, to the point that they essentially become necessary. However, their skills other than inject larvae were mostly left to sit in a dark corner, and were rarely employed, even by Zergs. Creep spread was the thing that was used more to show that a player had leftover APM and less that he was actually relying upon it. Transfuse was also rarely used, except for the very occasional player that decided queen-ultra was a good strategy and used the queen's transfuse to create the immortal ultralisk (see what I did there?). That also changed, however, when 1.4.3 BU rolled around. This brings us to the next section.

After 1.4.3 BU, the intersection of queen and hellion changed from a speedy hunter dodging around the slow guardian of the drone line to get inside and have a BBQ, to a hunter who was suddenly met with a rain of projectiles from a guardian that no longer needed to move in most cases. Zergs soon figured that more of a good thing must be better, and so they started using 4 queen and 6 queen openings to essentially shut down early harass. It did that shockingly well. Hellions were soon almost never used. When they were, they rarely justified their cost. The queen changed the harass game tremendously. However, players also noticed something else. They began to notice that creep spread was pretty good. Being able to have a creep tumor blocking your opponent's expansions was pretty useful. Knowing where someone was on the map at all times was also pretty cool. Soon, creep spread was a normal thing. Massive creep lanes were, and still are, a common sight. The queen began to justify it's cost more and more.

All this combined to change the way that the matchup worked. The Zerg knew that a push was coming almost after it left the enemy base in many cases, and even early game pushes were sometimes sited before they were on the Zerg half of the map. The Terran not only had to attack just to kill creep, but they also had to waste precious OC energy and engage more and more where Zerg would have a speed advantage. Combined with the shutdown of the early game harass, specifically from hellions, Zergs gained a huge advantage.

I would just like to wrap this whole thing up with a final thought. I think that if the queen change was rolled back tomorrow, I think very little would change. Players are beginning to realize the potential of the queen, and I think that the range was only the final straw that pushed them into widespread use.

These are just some thoughts that I came up with. Let me know what you think. Just to emphasize, I suck at the game. I watch the pros a lot though, and so I make my judgments off their play for the most part.

Thanks for reading,
Geek

***
one fish, two fish, red fish, NUKE FISH!!!! from the nuke funday monday
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
July 08 2012 02:41 GMT
#2
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
July 08 2012 03:34 GMT
#3
On July 08 2012 11:41 ninazerg wrote:
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.


Someone is pissed off today.

I don't mean to be patronizing, but as he is a silver player, he likely has low understanding of the deep strategy of the game so all he has to base his opinion on is his own experience (which he omitted) and what he sees on streams.

I tried to be as inoffensive as possible, but I probably did it again.
boomudead1
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States186 Posts
July 08 2012 03:49 GMT
#4
doesnt matter if hes silver or gm. he has a points. but the topics been around for a long time. and no one cares. i also agree that queen range upgrade is not needed. for the patch. overlord speed is fine imo
Im_hell
Profile Joined March 2012
United States16 Posts
July 08 2012 05:24 GMT
#5
it feels like you described hellions as drone killer, but its main role is to deny creep spread.
im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but i just get annoyed when people think hellion as a suiciding drone killer
serge
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Russian Federation142 Posts
July 08 2012 06:01 GMT
#6
1 star because of sub-par balance whine. This is the Blogs section, feel free to whine as much as you want here.

Im_hell you seem to be the hellion authority. I will vote for you to be hellion president.
I am Malkovich.
Murlox
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
France1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 06:10:49
July 08 2012 06:02 GMT
#7
On July 08 2012 11:41 ninazerg wrote:
MVP isn't going to be "THE BEST" forever. At some point, he's going to slump, and you can't correlate that with how you feel that Zerg is "unfair".

Guess what? Life's not fair. Life is OP, and there's no one to nerf it.


Nobody's talking about life here, expect you. Terran has been raped to the ground. Actually, where are the Terrans? I watch the streams, IPL, Zotac, and anything I grab, and I don't see no Terrans ?

Look at some "lesser" competitive terran play (jinro, qxc), you can tell their frustration. People have been saying to adapt, but just look at any Terran successful enough to reach the tournament level : it's always mass MMM, in every matchup. I don't even appreciate watching competitive Terran anymore, so annoying to see how reductive the gameplay has became.

Honest question : could anyone give me the name of a competitive Terran that has been having "convincing wins" (not in mirror) in the recent months? It would give me some heart back.


Edit : i'm slightly off topic... bare with my despair... on topic, the new improved queens are not only effective vs hellions but having more queens also nullifies any (already perilous) banshee harass, which leaves the Terran with... MMM, fucking A.
Resistance ain't futile
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-08 07:13:59
July 08 2012 07:13 GMT
#8
Problem why no one cares about this is that Terran is getting far form ROLF stomped vs Zerg.

Terran is still winning games, they are however having problems reaching the semi and final brackets though, as in it was not as easy as before. Further most games of the Zerg doesn't go 2-0 to the Zerg, most of the time its a 1-2 where the terran takes a couple of games before losing the series, allot of the games where the Zerg advances the Zerg only goes 2-3 queens total, so the queen buff doesn't really matter in those games.

And another reason why we don't see any Terran in the higher stages is because they don't seem to be able to beat Protoss players at all. If anything the Terran vs Protoss MU seems very hard for Terran atm.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Im_hell
Profile Joined March 2012
United States16 Posts
July 08 2012 17:25 GMT
#9
On July 08 2012 16:13 Integra wrote:
Problem why no one cares about this is that Terran is getting far form ROLF stomped vs Zerg.

Terran is still winning games, they are however having problems reaching the semi and final brackets though, as in it was not as easy as before. Further most games of the Zerg doesn't go 2-0 to the Zerg, most of the time its a 1-2 where the terran takes a couple of games before losing the series, allot of the games where the Zerg advances the Zerg only goes 2-3 queens total, so the queen buff doesn't really matter in those games.

And another reason why we don't see any Terran in the higher stages is because they don't seem to be able to beat Protoss players at all. If anything the Terran vs Protoss MU seems very hard for Terran atm.


i agree with him, terrans not getting absolutely owned by zerg, but its still rare then terran win vs zerg (series not single MU)
he mentioned that zerg wins in 3-2 most of the game, but its more like 3-1 and those are when its a terran favored maps or
when terran successfully cheese or when zerg makes a mistake.
And its true that terran is having problems vs toss, too. i think reason behind that is because in lotta maps is toss favored in TvP (no open space and no space to drop well)
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 252
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 5461
Stork 341
Mini 253
Soma 176
Rush 148
Larva 120
Sharp 82
Barracks 75
Hyuk 64
sorry 63
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 53
JulyZerg 42
soO 30
NaDa 28
Sacsri 22
Pusan 21
ZerO 13
Shine 12
Mong 7
League of Legends
JimRising 416
C9.Mang0397
Counter-Strike
summit1g11657
olofmeister950
shoxiejesuss638
pashabiceps1
Other Games
ceh9557
crisheroes253
Happy221
Mew2King45
Livibee32
Trikslyr28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick728
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 110
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH112
• LUISG 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
17m
WardiTV 2025
3h 17m
Cure vs Creator
Solar vs TBD
herO vs Spirit
Scarlett vs Gerald
Rogue vs Shameless
MaNa vs ShoWTimE
Nice vs TBD
WardiTV 2025
1d 1h
ByuN vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
OSC
1d 4h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
SC Evo League
2 days
Ladder Legends
2 days
BSL 21
2 days
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Ladder Legends
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
3 days
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.