• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:51
CEST 22:51
KST 05:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon111
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double Recent Patches and the Future Stellar Fest 1 Replay Pack
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Grand Finals SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ] ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder a Announcement on the JEDI Ringing Where can I find Flash replays that work? Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7982 users

Humans vs AI

Blogs > ProGamerX
Post a Reply
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 15:42:01
June 17 2012 15:30 GMT
#1
could artificial intelligence (AI) defeat any human player?







The AI
AI's most obvious advantage is that a computer could make a million moves in the time that a human makes two moves.

suppose we limit the AI's actions per minute (APM). to what extent do we limit the AI's actions per minute to achieve parity with humans?

could an AI with 60 APM defeat Flash, the most accomplished human player (250+ APM)?



Simulation
how does the simulator learn?

suppose we could simulate 1,000,000,000 starcraft games learning only with trial and error. does this 'purely deductive' approach fail the test of efficiency?

suppose we could 'magically' intuit the correct answer to one question. how many simulations are required to arrive at the same answer with 95% certainty?

suppose 10,000,000,000 simulations yield that you should scout at 8 drones in ZvR.

now the simulation employs 8 drone scouting 'going forward'.



Questions
does your simulator answer questions one at a time? how does the simulator prioritize questions? what if the simulator neglects essential questions? how does the simulator detect 'acceptable solutions' that are not the correct solution?



Human Brain
the human brain features some remarkable learning mechanisms. a human could be expected to say: "i've run 6,000,000,000 simulations whether 8 drone scouting is the optimal ZvR solution. however, i'm happy scouting with 8 drones or 11 drones. if i scout somewhere in the 8-11 drone spectrum, then this is optimal given current knowledge. investigating this question is no longer the optimal allocation of my time. now, i should answer whether to open 13 pool or 15 hatchery ZvR. also: is engineering bay or pylon blocking hatchery 'game-breaking'?

what constitutes game-breaking?



Humans vs AI
could we test RTS games with AI and exclude human testers? my current estimation is: AI is okay, humans are necessary.

one major consideration is that we're creating a human-friendly, human-enjoyable game.

game-breaking is, "could a human player reasonably be expected to handle this scenario"? "could a human player reasonably be expected to recover from this"?

suppose that a 60-APM AI could defeat flash playing at 250 APM. that's quite a feat. however, suppose we employ the same AI to arrive at conclusions like: is engineering bay or pylon blocking hatchery game-breaking?

the AI advantage is enough to defeat flash while the AI plays at less than 1/4th the APM. could we translate that same advantage to say that AI could recover from scenarios where recovery would be impossible with humans? how well does AI gauge its potential? in some sense this is like asking: "when do i all-in?"

suppose you're in the AI's position. you beat flash every game despite playing at less than 1/4th his speed. when do you make an all-in gamble? the question doesn't make sense. if your expectation is that you will win with 100% certainty, then you're 'all-in gambles' do not apply in your case.

imagine we employ this AI to create a game. and imagine that we specify game-breaking this way: game-breaking is when my AI loses. does this make sense? in games where the AI is playing against humans, it's clear that AI easily recovers from positions that would be not be possible with humans.

balancing an RTS with this formula gives an "OK" to a lot of scenarios that are very unreasonable when creating a game humans will play.



Other Questions
there are some proponents of IQ tests who argue that intelligence is whatever intelligence tests study. this is erroneous (and narcissistic).

likewise, if we define our simulator to be optimal then whatever the simulator calls the best solution is what we call the best solution. this is erroneous.

we deny the possibility that one could magically intuit the correct solution (or that there exists a better simulator).

if better solutions exist, how does our simulator make revisions? should we deem all solutions equally accurate? if not, how do we identify 'strong' solutions vs 'weak' solutions?


and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
Wampaibist
Profile Joined July 2010
United States478 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 16:29:42
June 17 2012 16:25 GMT
#2
Sick marine splitting video.

so basically you are saying if a computer loses to a human something must be imbalanced because the computer was programmed to do everything optimally?

I think its all interesting, however against a computer that uses everything to its optimal advantage just wouldn't be fun to watch. If we lived in a perfect world how boring would it become? The fact that there is nothing perfect and that we can keep reaching new heights is quite amazing.

I think someone may think they have created a bot that uses everything optimally and then if the bot loses you could claim imbalance. But I don't think its possible to create something that will be perfectly optimal, I believe there will always be a program that could be improved.

on a completely new note we first have to look at the marine splitting video. A human, I do not believe, will have have micro that crazy. Therefore, I would not balance a game around what a computer can do, when the game was created for humans.

Sports are fun because of inequality, talent, hard work, guts, and the all around experience of being human with faults and all. I don't think a computer not programmed for those specifications should meddle in balancing a sport.


as for the question is this a weak solution or strong solution is a great question. At some level computers already balance the game so what I said is complete bullshit...
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
June 17 2012 16:36 GMT
#3
Lol@ Above poster.

I loved that 20 sentries vs 1000 zerglings video. There is a reason we are called ProToss
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
June 17 2012 16:49 GMT
#4
OP, you are literally babbling nonsense. What you are writing makes no sense. It's a ton of meainigless words

Were you drunk or high? This is a serious question. I strongly suspect that you were when writing this.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
June 17 2012 17:12 GMT
#5
If you want to design an AI talk to this guy (game designer of "AI War: Fleet Command") who loves to rant about why traditional designs for AIs in games are just plain stupid:

http://christophermpark.blogspot.de/2009/06/designing-emergent-ai-part-1.html
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
June 17 2012 18:52 GMT
#6
An interesting article is also this one, where an AI is learning how to play the game from running text recognition on the manual of Civ.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/13/pc-ai-sucks-at-civilization-reads-manual-starts-kicking-ass/


Or have this 1h long talk by the lead+AI designer of Civ 3 and 4 on AI in Civilization:

Holy_AT
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria978 Posts
June 17 2012 19:22 GMT
#7
A human is a machine as is the computer and because computers are built and programmed by humans, they can only act in human terms.
A human can also only act on what he/she has learned as I have never seen a human I would consider intelligent as in my definition. If you give the computer enough rules and knowledge he can defeat everybody and everything.
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
June 17 2012 19:55 GMT
#8
I'm basically saying that the best game in the world is worth playing, otherwise it's not worth playing.
and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10566 Posts
June 17 2012 19:58 GMT
#9
youd have to make the computer ai do the same build orders as the humans would do and program it so that it would have the reactions and brain of a human. this is simply impossible. if a computer were faced with a proxy, how would it deal with it. you'd need to program it to say something like "[if] X happens [then] Y happens [if not] continue with build order" or something like. computers just don't have the same game sense as a human. a human would always beat a computer 1v1, unless it was a micro battle game.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
June 17 2012 21:06 GMT
#10
On June 18 2012 04:58 FlaShFTW wrote:
youd have to make the computer ai do the same build orders as the humans would do and program it so that it would have the reactions and brain of a human. this is simply impossible. if a computer were faced with a proxy, how would it deal with it. you'd need to program it to say something like "[if] X happens [then] Y happens [if not] continue with build order" or something like. computers just don't have the same game sense as a human. a human would always beat a computer 1v1, unless it was a micro battle game.


you're saying that if x happens and x is why then y happen?
and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Stellar Fest
13:00
Stellar Fest 2 The Moon: Qualifier Day 1
SteadfastSC504
EnkiAlexander 84
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 504
ZombieGrub126
JuggernautJason84
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 22051
Soulkey 258
White-Ra 182
Mini 164
Trap 26
ToSsGirL 24
Shine 19
League of Legends
Doublelift2313
Counter-Strike
fl0m1543
shoxiejesuss528
C9.Mang0161
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3722
Khaldor2160
Liquid`Hasu1582
Trikslyr37
Other Games
summit1g2612
ArmadaUGS2446
B2W.Neo480
shahzam428
Pyrionflax186
Mew2King57
Railgan22
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV193
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream87
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 54
• Azhi_Dahaki32
• HerbMon 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV410
League of Legends
• TFBlade912
• Noizen117
Other Games
• Scarra1200
• imaqtpie891
• Shiphtur290
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
13h 9m
OSC
16h 9m
Stellar Fest
16h 9m
OSC
1d 3h
Stellar Fest
1d 16h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Online Event
2 days
FEL
2 days
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
INu's Battles
3 days
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
INu's Battles
5 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-27
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.