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Humans vs AI

Blogs > ProGamerX
Post a Reply
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 15:42:01
June 17 2012 15:30 GMT
#1
could artificial intelligence (AI) defeat any human player?







The AI
AI's most obvious advantage is that a computer could make a million moves in the time that a human makes two moves.

suppose we limit the AI's actions per minute (APM). to what extent do we limit the AI's actions per minute to achieve parity with humans?

could an AI with 60 APM defeat Flash, the most accomplished human player (250+ APM)?



Simulation
how does the simulator learn?

suppose we could simulate 1,000,000,000 starcraft games learning only with trial and error. does this 'purely deductive' approach fail the test of efficiency?

suppose we could 'magically' intuit the correct answer to one question. how many simulations are required to arrive at the same answer with 95% certainty?

suppose 10,000,000,000 simulations yield that you should scout at 8 drones in ZvR.

now the simulation employs 8 drone scouting 'going forward'.



Questions
does your simulator answer questions one at a time? how does the simulator prioritize questions? what if the simulator neglects essential questions? how does the simulator detect 'acceptable solutions' that are not the correct solution?



Human Brain
the human brain features some remarkable learning mechanisms. a human could be expected to say: "i've run 6,000,000,000 simulations whether 8 drone scouting is the optimal ZvR solution. however, i'm happy scouting with 8 drones or 11 drones. if i scout somewhere in the 8-11 drone spectrum, then this is optimal given current knowledge. investigating this question is no longer the optimal allocation of my time. now, i should answer whether to open 13 pool or 15 hatchery ZvR. also: is engineering bay or pylon blocking hatchery 'game-breaking'?

what constitutes game-breaking?



Humans vs AI
could we test RTS games with AI and exclude human testers? my current estimation is: AI is okay, humans are necessary.

one major consideration is that we're creating a human-friendly, human-enjoyable game.

game-breaking is, "could a human player reasonably be expected to handle this scenario"? "could a human player reasonably be expected to recover from this"?

suppose that a 60-APM AI could defeat flash playing at 250 APM. that's quite a feat. however, suppose we employ the same AI to arrive at conclusions like: is engineering bay or pylon blocking hatchery game-breaking?

the AI advantage is enough to defeat flash while the AI plays at less than 1/4th the APM. could we translate that same advantage to say that AI could recover from scenarios where recovery would be impossible with humans? how well does AI gauge its potential? in some sense this is like asking: "when do i all-in?"

suppose you're in the AI's position. you beat flash every game despite playing at less than 1/4th his speed. when do you make an all-in gamble? the question doesn't make sense. if your expectation is that you will win with 100% certainty, then you're 'all-in gambles' do not apply in your case.

imagine we employ this AI to create a game. and imagine that we specify game-breaking this way: game-breaking is when my AI loses. does this make sense? in games where the AI is playing against humans, it's clear that AI easily recovers from positions that would be not be possible with humans.

balancing an RTS with this formula gives an "OK" to a lot of scenarios that are very unreasonable when creating a game humans will play.



Other Questions
there are some proponents of IQ tests who argue that intelligence is whatever intelligence tests study. this is erroneous (and narcissistic).

likewise, if we define our simulator to be optimal then whatever the simulator calls the best solution is what we call the best solution. this is erroneous.

we deny the possibility that one could magically intuit the correct solution (or that there exists a better simulator).

if better solutions exist, how does our simulator make revisions? should we deem all solutions equally accurate? if not, how do we identify 'strong' solutions vs 'weak' solutions?


and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
Wampaibist
Profile Joined July 2010
United States478 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 16:29:42
June 17 2012 16:25 GMT
#2
Sick marine splitting video.

so basically you are saying if a computer loses to a human something must be imbalanced because the computer was programmed to do everything optimally?

I think its all interesting, however against a computer that uses everything to its optimal advantage just wouldn't be fun to watch. If we lived in a perfect world how boring would it become? The fact that there is nothing perfect and that we can keep reaching new heights is quite amazing.

I think someone may think they have created a bot that uses everything optimally and then if the bot loses you could claim imbalance. But I don't think its possible to create something that will be perfectly optimal, I believe there will always be a program that could be improved.

on a completely new note we first have to look at the marine splitting video. A human, I do not believe, will have have micro that crazy. Therefore, I would not balance a game around what a computer can do, when the game was created for humans.

Sports are fun because of inequality, talent, hard work, guts, and the all around experience of being human with faults and all. I don't think a computer not programmed for those specifications should meddle in balancing a sport.


as for the question is this a weak solution or strong solution is a great question. At some level computers already balance the game so what I said is complete bullshit...
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
June 17 2012 16:36 GMT
#3
Lol@ Above poster.

I loved that 20 sentries vs 1000 zerglings video. There is a reason we are called ProToss
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
June 17 2012 16:49 GMT
#4
OP, you are literally babbling nonsense. What you are writing makes no sense. It's a ton of meainigless words

Were you drunk or high? This is a serious question. I strongly suspect that you were when writing this.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
June 17 2012 17:12 GMT
#5
If you want to design an AI talk to this guy (game designer of "AI War: Fleet Command") who loves to rant about why traditional designs for AIs in games are just plain stupid:

http://christophermpark.blogspot.de/2009/06/designing-emergent-ai-part-1.html
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Jinsho
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom3101 Posts
June 17 2012 18:52 GMT
#6
An interesting article is also this one, where an AI is learning how to play the game from running text recognition on the manual of Civ.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/13/pc-ai-sucks-at-civilization-reads-manual-starts-kicking-ass/


Or have this 1h long talk by the lead+AI designer of Civ 3 and 4 on AI in Civilization:

Holy_AT
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria978 Posts
June 17 2012 19:22 GMT
#7
A human is a machine as is the computer and because computers are built and programmed by humans, they can only act in human terms.
A human can also only act on what he/she has learned as I have never seen a human I would consider intelligent as in my definition. If you give the computer enough rules and knowledge he can defeat everybody and everything.
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
June 17 2012 19:55 GMT
#8
I'm basically saying that the best game in the world is worth playing, otherwise it's not worth playing.
and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10253 Posts
June 17 2012 19:58 GMT
#9
youd have to make the computer ai do the same build orders as the humans would do and program it so that it would have the reactions and brain of a human. this is simply impossible. if a computer were faced with a proxy, how would it deal with it. you'd need to program it to say something like "[if] X happens [then] Y happens [if not] continue with build order" or something like. computers just don't have the same game sense as a human. a human would always beat a computer 1v1, unless it was a micro battle game.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
ProGamerX
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
June 17 2012 21:06 GMT
#10
On June 18 2012 04:58 FlaShFTW wrote:
youd have to make the computer ai do the same build orders as the humans would do and program it so that it would have the reactions and brain of a human. this is simply impossible. if a computer were faced with a proxy, how would it deal with it. you'd need to program it to say something like "[if] X happens [then] Y happens [if not] continue with build order" or something like. computers just don't have the same game sense as a human. a human would always beat a computer 1v1, unless it was a micro battle game.


you're saying that if x happens and x is why then y happen?
and then they fire the devil, because we all get too high
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