• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:59
CET 14:59
KST 22:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT28Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)46Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2
StarCraft 2
General
Terran AddOns placement How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) WardiTV Team League Season 10 RSL Season 4 announced for March-April
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare Mutation # 512 Overclocked
Brood War
General
Recent recommended BW games TvZ is the most complete match up BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Soma Explains: JD's Unrelenting Aggro vs FlaSh ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02
Tourneys
The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [LIVE] [S:21] ASL Season Open Day 1 ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason New broswer game : STG-World
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Mexico's Drug War
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
YOUTUBE VIDEO
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Inside the Communication of …
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2171 users

Still losing in ZvZ?

Blogs > whatthefat
Post a Reply
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
June 09 2012 20:17 GMT
#1
Still losing in ZvZ?


      Having finally achieved my long-term goal of reaching Masters, I unfortunately no longer have the same amount of time for laddering. With that in mind, I’d like to share some lessons I learned along my road to improvement, which will hopefully be helpful to others.

      As a Zerg, I most often hear other Zergs lamenting ZvZ. But for me, this match-up has always felt pretty natural – it’s ZvP that I really dislike. So, I’d like to present a guide to improvement in ZvZ. I envision this being particularly helpful to those in Diamond or below, but perhaps some points will also offer a new perspective for those in Masters.



12 steps to improving

1. If you're not already doing so, open 14/14. That makes you safe against any all-in, and only puts you fractionally behind a 15 hatch. When you get better, you can start using 15 hatch on certain maps, but for now you just need to refine one build.

[image loading]


2. Next, make 100% sure you know how to hold a 6 pool. You should almost never lose to this if you see it coming and micro your drones well. In short, you want to take all drones off gas as soon as you see it coming. Drone to 15 as usual, and don't get freaked out and forget your overlord! Hotkey your drones, try to buy time for your lings, and only engage when you have a good concave. This can be achieved by either bullying the lings with your drones out in the open, or by mineral walking if you are proficient at that. Get a practice partner if you need to.

[image loading]


Also, include the following move in your build: At 2:30, take a drone and sweep it around the edge of your creep to check for any spines. There's nothing more annoying than letting your opponent hide a spine; this will save you a lot of games.

[image loading]


3 You need to have vision of their natural to see when a hatchery goes down. Make sure you have an overlord in place if you can (although make sure it has a way to escape in case a queen comes down), and use your first lings to check. It helps a lot here to know your relative timings. You can usually judge your opponent's pool timing relative to yours by where on the map your lings encounter theirs.

[image loading]


4. Make sure your overlords cover the path(s) between your bases. Learn by heart where they should be sitting on each map. If you're not sure for a certain map, watch a couple of pro games. Also, remember to keep your leading overlord out of queen range as the opponent's creep spreads. By the same token, be alert to any enemy overlords you can snipe. Losing an overlord to a queen can seriously mess up an opening.

5. Assuming you aren't forced to deviate extremely early, I recommend the following standard opener every time:

      9 Overlord
      14 Extractor
      14 Pool
      15 Overlord
      Get speed and take 2 drones off gas
      15 Queen
      17 Lings x 3
      20 Drone
      21 Hatchery


Keeping 1 drone on gas is important, as it allows you to throw down a baneling nest in a reactionary fashion, should it be needed.

6. If your opponent went hatch first, you have will have speed before them. Use it to harass with the lings and keep an eye on what your opponent is building. A spine crawler is a good indication that they are not intending to be super-aggressive. Since their gas is late, the only thing they can really do to hurt you right now is build a bunch of speedlings. So, keep droning, get a second queen, and only then throw down a baneling nest. Now you're in a standard early to midgame.

[image loading]


7. If your opponent went 14/14 or similar, you need to see when their hatchery goes down. There is a standard timing for it, around 4:10, which is when you will be getting yours. If you don't see one by 4:30, it's very likely that they are going for a one-base attack. Use your lings to figure out what it is. Most likely, they are going for early banelings. In this case, you want a baneling nest asap, and possibly a second queen. You will need to pump lings and defensive banelings, and you will want to get your queen to the ramp to block. With defensive banelings, you should be able to hold this, and if you do, the game is essentially over, as you have double the production.

It could also potentially be roaches, in which case banelings are not going to be helpful. You will need as many lings (and/or spines) as possible in that case. Remember, a spine takes 50 seconds to build, which is often longer than it takes your opponent to cross the map. So, if you are getting spines, you need to commit to them early and try to buy some time with your lings. Your speed will help you to threaten a run-by and also to potentially pick off reinforcements. Always remember that a spine can be built in the main and then transferred to the expansion.

8. Know that speed should usually finish around 5:00 if going gas first. If this doesn't happen for them, the gas has to be going somewhere else. If it finishes much earlier than this, it's very likely that they are going for a quick baneling nest, and you need to defend.

9. If your opponent went hatch first or 14/14 into hatchery, you should now be in a fairly standard and balanced position. The game now is a matter of out-droning your opponent without dying. So, how to do this?

I suggest thinking of the game in the terms of waves of production. Each time larvae pop, your opponent is either building an army or building drones. This means it's essentially a turn-based game, where you both have imperfect information and move simultaneously. In other words, ZvZ is sort of like Diplomacy.

[image loading]


Much like Diplomacy, ZvZ is a game of reading and reacting to your opponent. You should use occasional ling pokes to try to gauge your opponent's intentions. Are there are lot of spines? If so, they are probably teching. Are there a couple of spines with only a handful of lings? If so, they are probably droning. Are there many more units than you have? If so, they are very likely committing to an attack on one of the upcoming "turns". You should start building defenses yourself. Ideally, if you can leave army production one "turn" later than them, then you should hold and will always have a drone lead. A couple of spines can bolster your defender's advantage. If you're totally in the dark, sacrificing about 4 lings to get one into the opponent's main can be extremely valuable.

10. You should always be trying to find a way to sneak a small edge. The best way is getting a slight drone lead, without droning so hard that they can just kill you. Other ways are teching just a little quicker, getting upgrades just a little quicker, and getting a third just a little quicker. Also, remember the value of a macro-hatch. But unless your opponent is being super greedy, don't expect to be able to do all of these things at once; you will simply die. Learning how much you can get away with is just a matter of practice, better scouting, and careful review of your replays.

[image loading]


11. One of the most important midgame decisions is that of whether to go muta/ling or to stick with roach/infestor/hydra/queen. That's really a matter of taste. Most important is that you know which tech route your opponent has chosen. Your scouting of the front will help in this regard. Do you see roaches? Can you see whether the gases at the natural have been taken? Do they have evo chambers? How many spines are there? Another dead giveaway is a very early overseer - if you see this, you almost certainly want to throw down a few spores immediately. Keep that in mind if going mutas yourself; what is more important to you: scouting their base or hiding the fact that you have a lair?

12. Beyond all else, the single most important thing is hitting your injects. Even at high diamond, I was frequently missing some of my early injects by 10-20 seconds when preoccupied with ling/bane wars. This is inexcusable. If you are hitting your injects better than your opponent, you will almost always win. It's that simple.

[image loading]


Related to this, never ever get supply blocked. Like I said before, zerg is almost turn-based, so there's no excuse. If you build overlords just after each inject, they will always be ready for the next production cycle (because 25 s [overlord] + 15 s [larva] = 40 s [injection cycle]). You must form this habit if you have not already.

[image loading]




Some pointers on micro

There are many micro tricks to learn in ZvZ as well. These include:
  • Only engage in zergling vs. zergling battles when you have superior surface area. Pull back as soon as you realize you are in a worse position.
  • Remember, it takes 2 banelings to kill a baneling, so don't move banelings in groups of more than 2 if the enemy has banelings.
  • Learn how to split off individual zerglings to attack banelings. To do this, you want to send your whole group of zerglings to attack, then quickly shift click one of the zerglings out of the group, and move the now selected group back. You have to be fast to do this.
  • Learn how to split up your drones in case an early baneling bust gets into your main. One way to do it is to select all your drones, move them, shift click a couple out of the group, move them somewhere else, and repeat. This way, the opponent's banelings will be left wondering what to do.
  • Learn how to optimally stutter step with roaches. When winning a fight, move into the enemy's army as deep as possible so they cannot retreat without taking more losses.
  • Roach vs. roach battles usually come down to two factors: concaves and fungals. Before engagements, you want to break your army into a line, so that it will have a larger concave and won't be as susceptible to fungals. Don't get lazy in battle; keep looking for a better concave. Make your opponent fight in a position where they have less width. You can win from inferior positions if you are good at this. The same applies to ultra vs. ultra battles, although they are less common.
  • If fighting with mutas against infestors, learn how to split off small numbers of mutas to target the infestors. This makes it inefficient for the opponent to use fungals or infested terrans.
  • Burrow is an underused tool. Baneling landmines against hydras can turn a game. Burrowed infestors can be a total nuisance, and are a great way of recovering if you're behind. Burrowing queens and drones can be a life saver if your opponent achieves a run-by into one of your bases.
  • Remember that you can rally eggs. This is especially helpful for sending overlords all over the map.

I would argue that these micro techniques are secondary to the main points in the list, but if you wish to master ZvZ, you must learn them all.



Good luck!

To all of those looking to improve, I hope this has been of some help. ZvZ is a tricky match-up because it's fast-paced and highly reactionary. It can feel like pure chance until you learn to read your opponent and adapt your build accordingly. I wish you all the best of luck!

Cheers,
whatthefat.

****
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
June 09 2012 20:26 GMT
#2
good write up
starleague forever
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 09 2012 20:28 GMT
#3
Holy fuck, ZvZ still makes no sense to me, but to be honest, this breaks down a lot of early-game barriers I suffered from!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Split.
Profile Joined September 2011
Switzerland234 Posts
June 09 2012 21:25 GMT
#4
Thanks for this! To split my drones against a baneling attack I actually prefer to select them all, hit s, and then select idle workers and spam click over my base. It's not that reactionary as it takes a couple of seconds longer for the last drone to move, but the split is a million times better
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
June 09 2012 21:36 GMT
#5
On June 10 2012 06:25 Split. wrote:
Thanks for this! To split my drones against a baneling attack I actually prefer to select them all, hit s, and then select idle workers and spam click over my base. It's not that reactionary as it takes a couple of seconds longer for the last drone to move, but the split is a million times better

That's definitely a good technique too. I'd recommend people use whatever they find easiest.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Angel_
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1617 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-09 21:48:57
June 09 2012 21:47 GMT
#6
I don't play zerg anymore and havent in a while, but this seems like a really great guide.
My only critique is that for things like point 9, you say, "You have to defend", but other than the obvious "Micro better than your opponent", you could go into what that actually entails, or useful tips for baneling usage, from obvious, "don't stack all your banelings", to how you actually want to try to position them and split them. You sort of do in the micro section, but maybe actual defending against baneling/ling aggression could use specific detail. Just thoughts.

I add my own tip that is especially important for zerg, I think: Always, Always, hold position your lings/banelings if you aren't actively using them.
Swilvan
Profile Joined March 2011
113 Posts
June 09 2012 22:34 GMT
#7
Even though I never really play SC2 anymore, I love this post
Deleted User 255289
Profile Joined March 2012
281 Posts
June 09 2012 23:45 GMT
#8
I believe this is better to put in sc2strategy section.
Zerg OP | CreansRNub | k-Poop | Zerg OP | Sea lions | \\m//
SickeL
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
110 Posts
August 17 2012 19:55 GMT
#9
On June 10 2012 08:45 superbarnie wrote:
I believe this is better to put in sc2strategy section.

A blog is a blog is a blog, and this is a blog.
It can stay in his blog.
A wise man once said "Oppa Gangnam style."
Khazroul
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom206 Posts
August 17 2012 20:52 GMT
#10
The post is a couple of months old too.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiG Sty Festival
09:00
PiGFest 7.0 FINAL DAY
Serral vs MaruLIVE!
PiGStarcraft3117
ComeBackTV 1925
IndyStarCraft 342
BRAT_OK 331
Rex269
3DClanTV 96
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft3117
IndyStarCraft 342
BRAT_OK 331
Rex 269
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 49062
Britney 36306
Rain 2164
Pusan 605
JYJ 243
Last 142
ToSsGirL 74
Backho 56
JulyZerg 25
IntoTheRainbow 25
[ Show more ]
Rock 10
Icarus 7
Dota 2
Gorgc5501
qojqva1125
XcaliburYe201
Fuzer 200
Counter-Strike
fl0m2986
x6flipin604
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor246
MindelVK11
Other Games
B2W.Neo1166
Liquid`RaSZi913
Happy147
QueenE133
Hui .105
Mew2King88
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL201
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 14
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• iHatsuTV 12
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1414
• lizZardDota266
League of Legends
• Jankos3949
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1h 2m
Replay Cast
19h 2m
Wardi Open
22h 2m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS5
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.