EPTEdit : I'm not sure now. Looks strange though.
The mystery within the mystery - Page 6
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
Edit : I'm not sure now. Looks strange though. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
If the OP's evidence/idea was stupid it would have been disregarded. If the OP's evidence/idea has a strong backbone, it gets the attention it deserves (which is happening right now). The only thing, the identity of this person "drolets" would do is to make people make irrational arguements which have nothing to do with the actual issue. Ex: "oh "x" person posted this to discredit him because he thought he would win more convincingly" , or " Oh "y" person only posted this because spades kept beating him in playhem". | ||
Waxangel
United States33399 Posts
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:34 sekritzzz wrote: One thing which surprises me is how many people are asking for his identity (even if this might be a light-hearted thread). Why does identity matter when discussing an issue which doesn't require the OP's identity? If anything identity clouds the judgement of people. If the OP's evidence/idea was stupid it would have been disregarded. If the OP's evidence/idea has a strong backbone, it gets the attention it deserves (which is happening right now). The only thing, the identity of this person "drolets" would do is to make people make irrational arguements which have nothing to do with the actual issue. Ex: "oh "x" person posted this to discredit him because he thought he would win more convincingly" , or " Oh "y" person only posted this because spades kept beating him in playhem". Well, you have to look at if someone wanted to slander Spades for some reason by exaggerating events. That could play a crucial part in determining whether or not the claims have some merit or if they're just to get back at Spades. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:34 sekritzzz wrote: One thing which surprises me is how many people are asking for his identity (even if this might be a light-hearted thread). Why does identity matter when discussing an issue which doesn't require the OP's identity? If anything identity clouds the judgement of people. If the OP's evidence/idea was stupid it would have been disregarded. If the OP's evidence/idea has a strong backbone, it gets the attention it deserves (which is happening right now). The only thing, the identity of this person "drolets" would do is to make people make irrational arguements which have nothing to do with the actual issue. Ex: "oh "x" person posted this to discredit him because he thought he would win more convincingly" , or " Oh "y" person only posted this because spades kept beating him in playhem". The question of whether identity should be revealed has implications for TL policy with respect future maphack allegations. I.e. does anonymity allow for exploitation of the mob mentality by means if exaggerated and embellished "evidence" without fear of accountability? | ||
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TumNarDok
Germany854 Posts
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las91
United States5080 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:46 Doodsmack wrote: The question of whether identity should be revealed has implications for TL policy with respect future maphack allegations. I.e. does anonymity allow for exploitation of the mob mentality by means if exaggerated and embellished "evidence" without fear of accountability? On June 06 2012 05:44 plasmidghost wrote: Well, you have to look at if someone wanted to slander Spades for some reason by exaggerating events. That could play a crucial part in determining whether or not the claims have some merit or if they're just to get back at Spades. I'd be willing to give anyone 1,000,000,000$, yes one billion, if they can exaggerate/abuse mob mentality enough to kick idra out of his team. He is disliked (and also liked!) by a lot of players but nobody can ever call him a hacker because there literally is zero evidence pointing to that fact nor would anyone believe it. I can definetly see the abuse of anonomity and mob mentality when there is a lack of information such as me accusing Thorzain of something like, " Oh Thorzain robbed me in Sweden", but the OP provided his PoV and gave you the replays to look at for yourself. What would identity add to the discussion other than take attention away from the replays in this situation? Anyways it is TL's call, and I would have personally used my own name if I was going to accuse someone of something, but anonimity in my opinion needs to be respected in some cases because otherwise things which need fixing would always stay underground due to fear of possible repercussions. | ||
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ClysmiC
United States2192 Posts
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
People don't understand the pressure/danger that's placed on people that blow the whistle in the first place. There's Federal programs for people in that situation - It's called Witness Protection. Baring my own personal curiosity, there is no reason to reveal the Mystery Poster's identity, other then for people to satiate the longing for that knowledge. It's not like the guy came in, made a baseless accusation, and then peace out. The simple fact that there is replay analyse of it, as well as many other people/players/personalities coming out of the woodwork voicing their opinions, should show how beneficial the anonymous post was. If the guy never made a new TL account and posted anonymously, how many of use would still allegedly be in the dark? How many pro players/casters/managers would keep their opinion to themselves for fear of being shunned from the community? Let his true identity be. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
In case it hasn't been mentioned (I didn't see any mention in the thread) and following the rigor of your analysis, he always correctly capitalizes the "N" in LucifroN. I find TL posts to usually be haphazard with regard to the respect of capitalizations in player names. The paranoid me kept thinking, only LucifroN himself would care enough to keep capitalizing the "N" in his name. Even within this thread, we have people capitalizing it once, only to spell it with a lowercase the next time. | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
I will say, and this is not evidence in the least but is funny to me, that when I first read the accusation thread my first thought was 'Man some fan of lucifron is really butthurt that he almost lost to spades.' Though I feel like since reading through that whole thread my brain has been warped and tainted by the stupidity of both sides. I feel much safer in here. Perhaps I will try to assist. | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
 I think there's some middle ground. On one hand, this anonymous poster essentially ended Spades career with his post/accusation/arguments and one could argue that he should take responsibility. On the other hand, this anonymous poster should be a protected witness. I tend to lean towards the former, because Spades' fans, however ardent as they may be, are not going to attack this anonymous guy or hurt him in any way. Witness protection exists to protect witnesses from being hunted down by connections of individuals involved in crime, from public outcry, etc.. I think remaining anonymous initially is ok, since it prevents members from assuming any biases etc based on his identity, but I personally think that the anonymous tipper should own up. Just my two cents; I suppose I'm fine the other way as well, just voicing my opinion >.< | ||
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relyt
United States1073 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + But the mods can pm me the identity because I'm curious  | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
If he is going to be forced to get shoved into the spotlight, that's another thing. If I have a reasonable belief that someone is maphacking, and I can articulate why, and it's something a reasonable person would believe as well...however, I can't reveal this anonymously for fear of being ridiculed/what have you...why would I go about doing it? As I said in my post above, the simple fact that so many people are coming out now saying "I've actually be suspicious for awhile now..." is indicative to this fact. | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:48 relyt wrote: I also think that TL should keep his identity secret. We should protect whistleblowers in case anything like this happens in the future, we don't want anyone to hesitate releasing information out of fear of being shunned. It also allows us to be objective and review the evidence based solely on it's own merit, because people can't resort to ad hominem. + Show Spoiler + But the mods can pm me the identity because I'm curious While I agree with you on a purely theoretical level, I can't be comfortable with this approach given the current situation and the absolute closeminded brutality that was shown. The vast vast VAST majority of comments in that thread were as objective as a picasso and less coherent. Internet (or non-internet) anonymity leads to a lot of terrible things, as has already been shown in many cases across many platforms, and quite frankly the amount of users that access this information and just don't care or understand the implications of it is too high for accusations like this to run rampant. It's a pretty well established fact in a LOT of fields that certain ACCUSATIONS (even if proven false or you are proven innocent) will still be damaging and damning. I can't believe I can't remember the name currently but take the case from last year about the young mother accused of killing her own daughter. The verdict was innocent and people did not care. Far and away the prevailing opinion was 'SHE WAS GUILTY ANYWAY BURN HER DON'T LET HER DO ANYTHING SHE'S A MONSTER.' even though 'officially' and potentially 'truly' she was innocent of any wrongdoing. Sometimes a fake whistleblower can do as much harm as a real one... and I worry due to a lot of the logic I saw in that thread that rampant 'whistleblowing' of this sort will stagnate the scene. One of the most worrying phenomena I saw in that thread, particularly early, is that people automatically believed the op without looking at the replays at all because 'Spades isn't a top tier player and lucifron is really good.' This scares me for a number of reasons most of which involves the fact that especially in NA any player that wants to become a 'pro' needs a 'lucky break' against a big name and/or on a big stage to get noticed enough to have anyone want them to be a pro. If the current situation is allowed then potentially this could become an issue where any upset by a lower tier player would be completely overanalyzed and any butthurt fans of the top tier player that got beat could draw up any amount of accusations about hacking. The following sentence is not an attempt to argue for spades innocence in any way but, the widely accepted belief is that to beat a player 'better' than you you have to cut corners and 'get lucky' on your guesses/how the build works out. Add in to this that a lot of 'smart' defensive timings are done blind (People argued hacks over him putting down an ebay at 6:15 which is a STANDARD time to do that against both potential cloak banshees TvT and potential DT in TvP) and sometimes it just takes randomly moving your army and catching them out of position, or taking a risk, to break a player 'technically' better than you. Altogether letting this run rampant worries me just as much as potentially letting hackers run free, especially as someone hoping to break into the pro scene (somehow). | ||
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Rubnalq
Spain5 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:43 skatbone wrote: Entertaining blog. Good detective work. In case it hasn't been mentioned (I didn't see any mention in the thread) and following the rigor of your analysis, he always correctly capitalizes the "N" in LucifroN. I find TL posts to usually be haphazard with regard to the respect of capitalizations in player names. The paranoid me kept thinking, only LucifroN himself would care enough to keep capitalizing the "N" in his name. Even within this thread, we have people capitalizing it once, only to spell it with a lowercase the next time. Nonsense, the most avid LucifroN fans do capitalize the ending letter N. (And maybe even other people like me when I feel like it). Judging from his posts in the SC2 spanish site, he is just a fan that thought there was maphacking in the game. In the spanish forums he talks and behaves as a fan (I know spanish...), he came here by the renown of TL, and thats all. The reason behind posting that stuff about maphacking now and not in some other time is his own personal reason, and there's not much else to it (he just wanted to, could only do it this time, who knows?). Last point: In Spain there's people that doesn't write perfectly, (talking about internet... that's even more likely to be seen) so medivac becomes medivak. And yes, as Gheed guessed, the word "Cloack" means a poor english education. (I have none english education so sorry, yet I do say Cloak[ed] ^^) | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:29 sekritzzz wrote: I'd be willing to give anyone 1,000,000,000$, yes one billion, if they can exaggerate/abuse mob mentality enough to kick idra out of his team. He is disliked (and also liked!) by a lot of players but nobody can ever call him a hacker because there literally is zero evidence pointing to that fact nor would anyone believe it. I can definetly see the abuse of anonomity and mob mentality when there is a lack of information such as me accusing Thorzain of something like, " Oh Thorzain robbed me in Sweden", but the OP provided his PoV and gave you the replays to look at for yourself. What would identity add to the discussion other than take attention away from the replays in this situation? Anyways it is TL's call, and I would have personally used my own name if I was going to accuse someone of something, but anonimity in my opinion needs to be respected in some cases because otherwise things which need fixing would always stay underground due to fear of possible repercussions. Obviously idra is an irrelevant example here because he is a public personality whose games are well known. But with spades we're talking about a lesser known player who has hacked in the past. If you don't think the mob mentality can be exploited, just look at the first page of that thread and how many ppl immediately assumed the OP was correct without first watching the replays. They assumed based solely on the amount if bullet points the OP included as supposed evidence. If this person had used their real identity, they wouldn't be so quick to throw out exaggerations because they would be held accountable. Posts like that have the potential to insta-destroy a career, therefore the accuser damn well better be ready to back up his statements and show us his true face. And yes, whistleblowers in real life are subject to real-life dangers and threats but I don't think an Internet poster would be so threatened. | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
This guy heard it and decided to check it out after getting the replays from Luci. He thinks he finds cheating and decides to expose it. As for whether or not it is Luci himself (highly unlikely) just check his match history. If he was playing games most of the day he wouldn't have time to put together that thread (which would be a pretty big time commitment). Unfortunately I was quite ready to give Spades the benefit of the doubt since all the evidence was circumstantial. then he retires and all but confirms his guilt. | ||
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