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All ins are cheese, imo there is no reason to cheese on ladder until you are high masters. Until then your mechanics can be improved upon once your mechanics are rock solid then you can try to be fancy with all ins and stuff.
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You're not using an all in to "punish" anything if you just blindly decide to go for it the moment the game starts. That's the difference with the pros. Well, some pros. Your example may be extreme, but I never just leave against one either, kind of beats the point of practice. If that means I'm a raging 12 year old, fine, but I'm not the one who feels the need to make a forum post about it 
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if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
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On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
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On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place.
I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky.
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On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky.
Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
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All-in IS cheese. What the hell do you think cheese is? that being said, cheese is not a bad thing, infact cheese is really good to do as much as possible.
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TLADT24920 Posts
An interesting point. To me, it doesn't make if an all in is considered cheese or not because it's part of the game so the classification doesn't make a difference. Having said that, I dunno what classification it falls under though.
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On May 30 2012 14:11 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky. Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
But it makes you the better player in that specific game.
2gate, early pools, and other blind allins are stoppable if the player reacts correctly, and if he doesn't scout or react, he got outplayed and was the lesser player in that game.
The only allin I think is an exception for that is 2rax in TvZ, where the Zerg can scout it and still lose, but I guess that's debatable.
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On May 30 2012 14:11 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:09 K3Nyy wrote:On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win. Not exactly. If they don't scout it on time and don't react properly, they're not playing smart or well in the first place. I'm pretty sure I can do those builds with 100% win ratio in lower leagues and progamers can probably do to ladder players with a decent win ratio too, it has nothing to do with being lucky. Yes I agree but doing this doesnt make you the better player...
But it makes you the aggressor, which puts the responsibility/necessity to scout on him and if he doesn't do it then you have played the better game..
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Define allin...
Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? 
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On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin??
Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack?
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On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack?
Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
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On May 30 2012 15:02 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack? Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
Then it's not all in is it? It's just a planned attack that didn't go so well..
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On May 30 2012 15:02 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 14:52 IceSlipper wrote:On May 30 2012 14:43 _mmK wrote:Define allin... Is it when you don't have a follow up plan? If you don't do any damage you lose? Is a 2port banshee allin if I expand behind it??? I find the allin word very unclear becasue if I play standard and lose my army onesided he wins, but was my attack an allin? When I attack a zerg (TvZ) if I try to attack his third and lose my army without killing it I find myself losing 90% of the time a few min later(while I'm on two base getting third CC)... so allin?? Of course it isnt.. People severely over use the term all-in.. In practice all-ins are pretty rare, anything that you can continue playing from if you don't win the game right there shouldn't be considered all in.. How is it all-in if you are already preparing for the rest of the game after the attack? Most of the time they don't plan to go to a later stage of the game. If i 2 port banshee and he scouts chances are I am not going to leave, I just say fuck it and try to macro. Unless he fucks up royally or I am going to lose
True, but better players usally have a follow-up so :/ Allins is a part of the game and I woulden't want it removed and if all games would only be macro games it would look waaay to alike a 10min no rush game, those are not fun to watch!
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On May 30 2012 13:59 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:55 LennoxPM wrote:
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact. not true, if I blindly proxy 2 gate every game I am banking on my opponent not scouting and spawn positions. I am not playing smart I am simply hoping I am lucky and get a free win.
if you lost your opponent played better and smarter, any excuse in the world wont change this fact.
i can just repeat the same thing because it is perfectly fits here.
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 all-incheese
They are not always the same.
If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
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On May 30 2012 15:42 Vandroy wrote:all-incheeseThey are not always the same. If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
everyone deserves their wins because they played better, doesnt matter what kind a build order they executed.
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On May 30 2012 15:42 Vandroy wrote:
If you blind proxy 2gate on a 4-player map against an opponent of fairly equal skill and win, well then you're just playing like an idiot and didn't deserve that win.
In that situation, the other person played equally (more) bad, by not scouting and reacting well enough. So yes, you still deserve that win more than the opponent.
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I agree that if you play better you deserve the win, but how do you play better?
1. With gameplay, better macro and micro
or
2. Outsmarting your opponent with good strategy, mind games or decision making.
Now I could understand going for that proxy if you are the underdog because that would increase your chances to win even if you're going for the 1 in 3 chance. Going for it when you're equally skilled otherwise, would be just pure gamble and a stupid decision because you'd have a higher chance to win if you just played any other strat.
I also think that the person not scouting is playing good because when games are very close it's the small details that matter and then you don't wanna send out an early scv/drone to scout for proxy gates on 4 player maps. I would only do that if I played someone I knew I was better than just to be extra safe.
This is no mind game or smart play, it's just a pure stupid decision that sometimes will yield you a win but decreases your chances to win. Any good player wouldn't scout for that because any good opponent wouldn't blind proxy 2gate on a 4 player map. So I have to disagree with you, the reasoning behind going for the proxy is bad(and you'll win if you're lucky) and the reasoning for not scouting for it is good.
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On May 30 2012 13:34 TitaniumDesigns wrote:
It seems to be a more increasing thing and i thought (after having the big launch of SC2 and the raging 12 yr olds who play games for a few months then rage quit stage would be over).
TBH, your friend sounds like a passive aggressive douche. He calls someone a "bm fucker" because they leave without saying "gg". This just seems like he wants his superiority to be acknowledged and gets pissy when someone doesn't pander to his ego.
In my experience, the vast majority of people who play on the ladder don't "gg" (looking at my 1200 replays, only 16% contain the word gg). I don't know why anyone would assume their opponent is "raging" because they leave without it. Maybe the other zerg was frustrated that he missed hotkeying an evo chamber and didn't scout in time / react properly or whatever. Or maybe he was just stoically accepting his loss and moving on to the next game. You have no idea, so don't make silly assumptions.
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I would have to say all in is not really a cheese, just a strategy that has no follow through and MUST do damage i feel. put this in perspective,
PvT on Ohana, i want to go for a 1 gate expo, but i see that my opponent decides to bunker down my natural and just take his expo, from here, i am left with no other option than to tech to 3 gate robo and clear my bunkers after my first immortal pops (mind you, he had three bunkers full of marines at my natural) at this point he is ahead in economy and i have two options, expand now, and defend till the late game, or can go one base colossus and all in him with two colossi and gateway units. i chose the latter of the two and was able to win. granted if i did not do a ton of damage with my push he would be so far ahead that i could never catch up. I had no plan for after the push and it was all or nothing.
cheese is just something that has to be done within a certain time frame (early game) in order to work, i dont think i have seen someone proxy 2 rax at 15 minutes and hope to do damage.
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Cheese is something that if you scout it you shouldn't lose to. If you scout a 6 pool, 2 port banshee, proxy rax etc. you shouldn't lose to it if you play properly. That's why it's a risk because you gamble on your opponent making a mistake. If it does damage the cheesing player can come out ahead or even and a macro game can continue on from there if it doesn't do damage the cheesing player is quite far behind.
An all-in HAS TO END THE GAME. If I 8 gate all-in you PvZ with 32 probes and you hold the all-in. Guess what? I've lost.
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Sigh... you see you will never get some dumb thread in BW arguing on shits like this.
All ins are part of the game. If no All ins/Cheese exist then the greediest macro builds wins every single time. We might as well play sim city.
Does it make you a better player? who the fuck cares? Every decent player knows the timing and play the risks, if the goal is to be a better player then winning and losing shouldn't matter at all.
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On May 30 2012 20:40 haduken wrote:
Sigh... you see you will never get some dumb thread in BW arguing on shits like this.
All ins are part of the game. If no All ins/Cheese exist then the greediest macro builds wins every single time. We might as well play sim city.
Does it make you a better player? who the fuck cares? Every decent player knows the timing and play the risks, if the goal is to be a better player then winning and losing shouldn't matter at all.
TBH I have encountered these conversations on the BW forums but it's very very very rare, reserved for only the most egregious of upsets.
Whereas it's like a daily occurrence with SC2, where somehow using cheese or all-ins makes you a bad player and that this mysterious concept of "being the better player" is the end-all and be-all of life.
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On May 30 2012 13:43 Son of Gnome wrote:
All ins are cheese, imo there is no reason to cheese on ladder until you are high masters. Until then your mechanics can be improved upon once your mechanics are rock solid then you can try to be fancy with all ins and stuff.
Actually, there is every reason to cheese below masters. You see, few people below masters can properly execute or hold something as simple as a 4-gate. If you cannot even perform a 4-gate, why should you even bother to play a macro game? You cannot even properly perform the opening build, much less play a proper macro game.
Baby steps.
Also, a large number of pros have recommended or done this themselves: cheese to masters as a way to improve.
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Have you seen the people who whine about "3 base allin"? If you wanna cheese/allin, go ahead. If you hate to get raged it, mute the opponent in advance.
Everything can be "countered" if scouted.
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On May 30 2012 16:50 Vandroy wrote:
I agree that if you play better you deserve the win, but how do you play better?
1. With gameplay, better macro and micro
or
2. Outsmarting your opponent with good strategy, mind games or decision making.
Now I could understand going for that proxy if you are the underdog because that would increase your chances to win even if you're going for the 1 in 3 chance. Going for it when you're equally skilled otherwise, would be just pure gamble and a stupid decision because you'd have a higher chance to win if you just played any other strat.
I also think that the person not scouting is playing good because when games are very close it's the small details that matter and then you don't wanna send out an early scv/drone to scout for proxy gates on 4 player maps. I would only do that if I played someone I knew I was better than just to be extra safe.
This is no mind game or smart play, it's just a pure stupid decision that sometimes will yield you a win but decreases your chances to win. Any good player wouldn't scout for that because any good opponent wouldn't blind proxy 2gate on a 4 player map. So I have to disagree with you, the reasoning behind going for the proxy is bad(and you'll win if you're lucky) and the reasoning for not scouting for it is good.
Actually you are wrong. No one goes for proxy gates on maps with 3 possible opponent spawning positions(except maphackers), because it is impossible to do it even half decently but if there are only 1 or 2 then it is viable. On maps like that your worker scout timming should be early enough to react. As a Protoss In PvP i always set my buildings to counter 2gates and scout around my base after i build gateway and i never lose to 2gate. I lose nothing that way. Pylon and gate placed near nexus, scouting probe scout around my opponent base before stalker and i almost never send it back to mine anyway, better just to scout around for expo, attack timming or just place some proxy pylons.
Same goes for other races if you are terran player just always wall off, if you are zerg you can scout with your ov'ies.
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On May 30 2012 16:50 Vandroy wrote:
I agree that if you play better you deserve the win, but how do you play better?
1. With gameplay, better macro and micro
or
2. Outsmarting your opponent with good strategy, mind games or decision making.
Now I could understand going for that proxy if you are the underdog because that would increase your chances to win even if you're going for the 1 in 3 chance. Going for it when you're equally skilled otherwise, would be just pure gamble and a stupid decision because you'd have a higher chance to win if you just played any other strat.
I also think that the person not scouting is playing good because when games are very close it's the small details that matter and then you don't wanna send out an early scv/drone to scout for proxy gates on 4 player maps. I would only do that if I played someone I knew I was better than just to be extra safe.
This is no mind game or smart play, it's just a pure stupid decision that sometimes will yield you a win but decreases your chances to win. Any good player wouldn't scout for that because any good opponent wouldn't blind proxy 2gate on a 4 player map. So I have to disagree with you, the reasoning behind going for the proxy is bad(and you'll win if you're lucky) and the reasoning for not scouting for it is good.
Not scouting is NEVER good, it's just a risk players do to get slightly ahead.
A good player WILL scout for everything because he knows a good opponent is capable of anything.
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On May 30 2012 21:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:43 Son of Gnome wrote:
All ins are cheese, imo there is no reason to cheese on ladder until you are high masters. Until then your mechanics can be improved upon once your mechanics are rock solid then you can try to be fancy with all ins and stuff. Actually, there is every reason to cheese below masters. You see, few people below masters can properly execute or hold something as simple as a 4-gate. If you cannot even perform a 4-gate, why should you even bother to play a macro game? You cannot even properly perform the opening build, much less play a proper macro game. Baby steps. Also, a large number of pros have recommended or done this themselves: cheese to masters as a way to improve.
I agree that cheese is a good way to improve but probably not all the way to masters. It is good for learning hotkeys and other basic mechanics but it doesn't teach you how to macro properly in longer games or how to harass or other stuff
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Well, theres nothing wrong with cheesing, nothing wrong with all in , and nothing wrong with not leaving. What is OP complaining about?
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On May 30 2012 21:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 13:43 Son of Gnome wrote:
All ins are cheese, imo there is no reason to cheese on ladder until you are high masters. Until then your mechanics can be improved upon once your mechanics are rock solid then you can try to be fancy with all ins and stuff. Actually, there is every reason to cheese below masters. You see, few people below masters can properly execute or hold something as simple as a 4-gate. If you cannot even perform a 4-gate, why should you even bother to play a macro game? You cannot even properly perform the opening build, much less play a proper macro game. Baby steps. Also, a large number of pros have recommended or done this themselves: cheese to masters as a way to improve.
Please try to cheese to masters and never macro at all, then try to play macro games and see where it gets you. The skill required to pull off a cheese and the skill needed for a long macro game are at a completely different lvl.
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On May 30 2012 23:57 LennoxPM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 16:50 Vandroy wrote:
I agree that if you play better you deserve the win, but how do you play better?
1. With gameplay, better macro and micro
or
2. Outsmarting your opponent with good strategy, mind games or decision making.
Now I could understand going for that proxy if you are the underdog because that would increase your chances to win even if you're going for the 1 in 3 chance. Going for it when you're equally skilled otherwise, would be just pure gamble and a stupid decision because you'd have a higher chance to win if you just played any other strat.
I also think that the person not scouting is playing good because when games are very close it's the small details that matter and then you don't wanna send out an early scv/drone to scout for proxy gates on 4 player maps. I would only do that if I played someone I knew I was better than just to be extra safe.
This is no mind game or smart play, it's just a pure stupid decision that sometimes will yield you a win but decreases your chances to win. Any good player wouldn't scout for that because any good opponent wouldn't blind proxy 2gate on a 4 player map. So I have to disagree with you, the reasoning behind going for the proxy is bad(and you'll win if you're lucky) and the reasoning for not scouting for it is good. Actually you are wrong. No one goes for proxy gates on maps with 3 possible opponent spawning positions(except maphackers), because it is impossible to do it even half decently but if there are only 1 or 2 then it is viable. On maps like that your worker scout timming should be early enough to react. As a Protoss In PvP i always set my buildings to counter 2gates and scout around my base after i build gateway and i never lose to 2gate. I lose nothing that way. Pylon and gate placed near nexus, scouting probe scout around my opponent base before stalker and i almost never send it back to mine anyway, better just to scout around for expo, attack timming or just place some proxy pylons. Same goes for other races if you are terran player just always wall off, if you are zerg you can scout with your ov'ies.
Well we were discussing the scenario if someone did do it completely blind, that is send first probe and build 2 gateways without even scouting if your opponent was in that position. The reason why almost no one does(I'm sure some non-maphacker has) is because it's stupid.
On May 31 2012 00:54 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 16:50 Vandroy wrote:
I agree that if you play better you deserve the win, but how do you play better?
1. With gameplay, better macro and micro
or
2. Outsmarting your opponent with good strategy, mind games or decision making.
Now I could understand going for that proxy if you are the underdog because that would increase your chances to win even if you're going for the 1 in 3 chance. Going for it when you're equally skilled otherwise, would be just pure gamble and a stupid decision because you'd have a higher chance to win if you just played any other strat.
I also think that the person not scouting is playing good because when games are very close it's the small details that matter and then you don't wanna send out an early scv/drone to scout for proxy gates on 4 player maps. I would only do that if I played someone I knew I was better than just to be extra safe.
This is no mind game or smart play, it's just a pure stupid decision that sometimes will yield you a win but decreases your chances to win. Any good player wouldn't scout for that because any good opponent wouldn't blind proxy 2gate on a 4 player map. So I have to disagree with you, the reasoning behind going for the proxy is bad(and you'll win if you're lucky) and the reasoning for not scouting for it is good. Not scouting is NEVER good, it's just a risk players do to get slightly ahead. A good player WILL scout for everything because he knows a good opponent is capable of anything.
I disagree and I think a lot of good players wouldn't scout for those blind proxy 2gates because they know a good opponent wouldn't gamble(with the odds against him). They would therefore get behind(slightly) if they did scout. You can't be 100% safe against everything and always win, sometimes you have to cut corners and I think not scouting for blind proxies on a 4 player map would be one of those cases.
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EPT
