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My little brother is often yelled at to practice his guitar and learn Chinese. I can at least defend Chinese as being useful for international businessmen or translators who want to develop better relations with their clients, but music doesn't seem to offer anything special in my opinion.
The major school subjects all offer students things that they would need for their future endeavors into mathematics, science, and literature. Being educated about history allows people to have opinions on governments and to protect themselves from oppression.
Music isn't useless. Music can teach people that effort is rewarded since lots of practice can let people nail down songs but the same thing can be said of math and difficult math problems. Music can help people to relax, but then again, I believe that you don't really need to know how to understand how to play music to be able to enjoy it. There are also other relaxing things that people can do to relieve stress including exercise and video games.
So why the obsession with forcing kids to practice musical instruments? Why not get them interested in web design or app design. Why not teach them some more advanced mathematics and let them compete in childhood tournaments so they can get excited about math? Hell having kids design lego models would at least improve their spatial reasoning abilities.
I don't believe that kids should be forced to learn any subject that they don't like at home. That means that if a kid hates lego and loves music, then I believe the parent should give them a guitar. The world needs musicians. But not every child in the world wants to learn, nor needs to learn how to play a musical instrument.
+ Show Spoiler [xkcd rocks] +
/rant. I'm also having a hard time figuring out where my life will go. I just finished my 3rd year as a computer/electrical engineer. I'm specializing in communications and networking.
I don't know if I should take a coop year. It'd be nice to play video games every weekend but what then after I graduate?
Do I get a job at a corporation where a large part of my day is spent in meetings?
Do I get a job in the government where people rarely get laid off?
Do I get a job in a small company where you get to see the big picture and then grow with that/other small companies?
Do I get a job as a contractor working for multiple corporations?
I highly doubt I'll be a musician but perhaps someone else's parental pressure into music would have allowed them to become a big star. Maybe.
I don't mind working at my internships. I generally leave work tired but feeling somewhat happy or fulfilled. I think this has more to do with just being able to do work than the type of work I'm doing. I just don't know if I'm prepared to commit forty years to this, or if I even have a choice. No summers or winters either T_T
+ Show Spoiler [hehe underwater basketweaving] +
 
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If everything is a means to some other end, where do the ends end?
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Music is great, I wish I learned to play an instrument as a kid.
That being said I can't justify forcing someone to learn music.
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On May 20 2012 09:59 hypercube wrote:
Music is great, I wish I learned to play an instrument as a kid.
That being said I can't justify forcing someone to learn music.
Yeah same. I'd like to know how to play guitar. Just as I'd like to have a complete understanding of Quantum Physics up to this point, but I'm not sure if it'd have been worth the effort or if there was something else better to learn.
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For starters, learning how to play a instrument takes a lot of dedication and practice. The end result is not to learn to play the instrument, but it's to learn how to pick up discipline from it.
Also, music and mathematics are processed on the same side of the brain. Often times, the best composers were also backdoor musicians.
That and it's good to know how to read music and appreciate a good song. I doubt most classical musicians listen to taylor swift or britney spears.
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hmm i'm worried a bit about my future as well, but...
how good are you at music? you can always do it on the side, and if you stick with it, you may be able to make money off of it\
about the job... idk what coop year is sorry >.<
Also, I would say this; if you're going to join a small company (which I would prefer; i think it would give your life a lot more meaning when you're involved in something you care about and can see it come to fruition), make sure that you actually like/enjoy/care to do computer/electrical engineering. If you did it just cus you're good at tech/math or something, and wanted decent money, then I guess you probably should go with something else.
hm that's all i can really think of >.<
oh yeah 1 point about forcing kids to learn music:
I think i can say pretty much everyone loves music. It's just that not everyone is willing to put in the time to practice playing an instrument (or composing or whatever). Kids are short sighted when young; they don't understand the world yet, and they don't have the maturity to make good decisions. Forcing your kids to stick with music might result in really really thankful kids later on. Also, many times a kid who doesn't "want" to practice does like playing/performing songs that they like (not like pure classical for educational purposes or such). But, they don't have the patience or motivation to practice. Remember kids are short sighted and have smaller attention spans. If they get a little push (kids have so much free time anyway!) it might pay off later. If not, then at least they were involved in music, which can be beneficial simply cus music requires you to use several parts of the brain at the same time and etc. etc. and it helps your creativity and whatnot, blah blah etc.
And another point is actually, the more parents there are forcing their kids to learn music, the better it is for full-time (or part-time) musicians! it means more lessons to give  without lessons, being a musician would be even more of a bleak career than it already is
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On May 20 2012 10:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:hmm i'm worried a bit about my future as well, but... how good are you at music? you can always do it on the side, and if you stick with it, you may be able to make money off of it\ about the job... idk what coop year is sorry >.< Also, I would say this; if you're going to join a small company (which I would prefer; i think it would give your life a lot more meaning when you're involved in something you care about and can see it come to fruition), make sure that you actually like/enjoy/care to do computer/electrical engineering. If you did it just cus you're good at tech/math or something, and wanted decent money, then I guess you probably should go with something else. hm that's all i can really think of >.< oh yeah 1 point about forcing kids to learn music: I think i can say pretty much everyone loves music. It's just that not everyone is willing to put in the time to practice playing an instrument (or composing or whatever). Kids are short sighted when young; they don't understand the world yet, and they don't have the maturity to make good decisions. Forcing your kids to stick with music might result in really really thankful kids later on. Also, many times a kid who doesn't "want" to practice does like playing/performing songs that they like (not like pure classical for educational purposes or such). But, they don't have the patience or motivation to practice. Remember kids are short sighted and have smaller attention spans. If they get a little push (kids have so much free time anyway!) it might pay off later. If not, then at least they were involved in music, which can be beneficial simply cus music requires you to use several parts of the brain at the same time and etc. etc. and it helps your creativity and whatnot, blah blah etc. And another point is actually, the more parents there are forcing their kids to learn music, the better it is for full-time (or part-time) musicians! it means more lessons to give without lessons, being a musician would be even more of a bleak career than it already is
Maybe forcing kids to learn something can give them a kind of fake discipline. I believe real discipline has to be internal, and when the accountability is taken away the grown up kid may lose all the desire to work hard on things. But there's also the chance that the fake discipline will develop into habit. I haven't really seen any observational studies correlating discipline and amount of hours spent as a child being forced to do an activity. You're right though, kids don't really care about long term things, and should therefore be forced to learn things. I'd prefer they learned useful things that they liked though. I'd also not use any type of insults or threatening force.
Good luck in your future too!
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Learning music strengthens your mind in ways that other disciplines do not. There's tons of research out there showing that children who study music perform better in all subjects (on average) than children who do not.
Why should you force kids? Easy, because kids are stupid and lack discipline. There are many things they do not like to do. They need to be shown how to do things, how to learn, how to put in effort even when you're bad at something, especially when you're bad at something.
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I don't feel like I have much to contribute or discuss (in addition to the great points raised already, that is), but one thing that actually came up in a conversation today was more about how the pure art of music is somewhat being lost; or the intrinsic appreciation for classical music. It's sort of odd to think that the music of the "old greats" will never really be produced again, since there is so little interest in classical music and I don't think there will come along any individual as gifted in music and as motivated (whether by society or personally) to even attempt to compose classical-style music. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, but some of, say Beethoven's works were simply astounding in genius. It sucks to think that no musician will ever again try to emulate baroque/classical/romantic music again (using "classical" to encompass the non-modern music, aka baroque/classical/romantic, I suppose).
It's almost something of a lost art; kids lean music to be good at it (stereotype=asian kids for colleges in america lol), and never really realize just how beautiful what they're playing really is sometimes. Technically yes, I guess you could say that there is no immediate value in that type of music in contemporary times, but if there ever were some form of [literal] art that were dying out, it's classical music. It definitely takes a devoted musician to appreciate it (really no patrons for that kind of music nowadays too lol, only for performers to a certain degree), but man...much of it is pure genius, and classical music still does live on to an extent but there is little true appreciation for it in the world for understandable reasons, but it's still sort of sad ;__;
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On May 20 2012 10:50 Bigtony wrote:
Learning music strengthens your mind in ways that other disciplines do not. There's tons of research out there showing that children who study music perform better in all subjects (on average) than children who do not.
Why should you force kids? Easy, because kids are stupid and lack discipline. There are many things they do not like to do. They need to be shown how to do things, how to learn, how to put in effort even when you're bad at something, especially when you're bad at something.
Perhaps the correlation is not cause and effect then. Or there is a confounding variable. There's a likely correlation that children who play starcraft BW well have high math scores, but is that a causation that playing BW exercises the brain? Or is it that children who play a lot of BW had strict Asian parents and therefore do well in math, but also have a lot of Asian friends who play BW due to the combined need to escape from parental expectations.
Another example is how more people drown near bodies of water that sell suntan lotions than places without suntan lotions. This is due to people drowning at higher temperatures of water and the fact that suntan lotions are sold more frequently near higher temperatures of water.
On kids learning to do something even if it's hard. That's an interesting idea, but everything is hard when people first start it. Some things are less hard because kids have a natural inclination towards specific things. If this natural inclination makes certain subjects easier and decides their specialization then so be it. When a child learns multiplication for the first time that's hard. And if they're above their grade level in mathematics then they should move up a grade level and start doing algebra.
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Chicks dig musicians especially one's who can play the guitar. It's definitely a useful skill to have even for this one reason alone.
Learning an instrument keeps a person more well rounded which I feel is way more important than learning calculus at age 10.
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Some people are forced to practice as kids, don't particularly like it, but then like playing more when they get older. In that case, having the background training as a kid really helps.
That scenario was mentioned earlier, but I've seen it plenty of times before in the real world.
I don't think it's worth forcing on somebody who sucks at it though. There are other ways to build discipline, legitimate or not.
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On May 20 2012 11:12 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 10:50 Bigtony wrote:
Learning music strengthens your mind in ways that other disciplines do not. There's tons of research out there showing that children who study music perform better in all subjects (on average) than children who do not.
Why should you force kids? Easy, because kids are stupid and lack discipline. There are many things they do not like to do. They need to be shown how to do things, how to learn, how to put in effort even when you're bad at something, especially when you're bad at something. Perhaps the correlation is not cause and effect then. Or there is a confounding variable. There's a likely correlation that children who play starcraft BW well have high math scores, but is that a causation that playing BW exercises the brain? Or is it that children who play a lot of BW had strict Asian parents and therefore do well in math, but also have a lot of Asian friends who play BW due to the combined need to escape from parental expectations. Another example is how more people drown near bodies of water that sell suntan lotions than places without suntan lotions. This is due to people drowning at higher temperatures of water and the fact that suntan lotions are sold more frequently near higher temperatures of water. On kids learning to do something even if it's hard. That's an interesting idea, but everything is hard when people first start it. Some things are less hard because kids have a natural inclination towards specific things. If this natural inclination makes certain subjects easier and decides their specialization then so be it. When a child learns multiplication for the first time that's hard. And if they're above their grade level in mathematics then they should move up a grade level and start doing algebra.
The research is out there and it's non-trivial; I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you if your response to my post is "well maybe all that research is wrong and music has nothing to do with it."
I'm not saying it's a good idea for parents to chain their kids to pianos or violins (that would be an outlier), but forcing your kid to do something productive (see point 1) rather than something they just "like" is extremely beneficial. Passion can go away, discipline will not. It's pretty easy to "stop liking" something, ESPECIALLY as a child.
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Playing music well, especially with other people, is one of life's greatest pleasures. The fact that people want their children to experience that isn't surprising. It might not get you a job, but that's not the point.
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On May 20 2012 10:51 Aerisky wrote:
I don't feel like I have much to contribute or discuss (in addition to the great points raised already, that is), but one thing that actually came up in a conversation today was more about how the pure art of music is somewhat being lost; or the intrinsic appreciation for classical music. It's sort of odd to think that the music of the "old greats" will never really be produced again, since there is so little interest in classical music and I don't think there will come along any individual as gifted in music and as motivated (whether by society or personally) to even attempt to compose classical-style music. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, but some of, say Beethoven's works were simply astounding in genius. It sucks to think that no musician will ever again try to emulate baroque/classical/romantic music again (using "classical" to encompass the non-modern music, aka baroque/classical/romantic, I suppose).
It's almost something of a lost art; kids lean music to be good at it (stereotype=asian kids for colleges in america lol), and never really realize just how beautiful what they're playing really is sometimes. Technically yes, I guess you could say that there is no immediate value in that type of music in contemporary times, but if there ever were some form of [literal] art that were dying out, it's classical music. It definitely takes a devoted musician to appreciate it (really no patrons for that kind of music nowadays too lol, only for performers to a certain degree), but man...much of it is pure genius, and classical music still does live on to an extent but there is little true appreciation for it in the world for understandable reasons, but it's still sort of sad ;__;
you are a little retro in your thinking, there is very very very masterful composers equal to beethoven. they are being produced. they are not stars of the world, but it is a niche genre anyway. time can make hero's of mostly ordinary men. be careful not to fall into that trap.....
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it's hard to justify learning music in the way you are looking for. once you begin your musical journey, you can understand better.
it's kind of like "why meditate" ?
it solves problems you didnt know you had, basically. it opens doors in the mind and spirit and teaches you things that stay inside as self knowledge. we aren't ants in a colony here...
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On May 20 2012 12:53 ella_guru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 10:51 Aerisky wrote:
I don't feel like I have much to contribute or discuss (in addition to the great points raised already, that is), but one thing that actually came up in a conversation today was more about how the pure art of music is somewhat being lost; or the intrinsic appreciation for classical music. It's sort of odd to think that the music of the "old greats" will never really be produced again, since there is so little interest in classical music and I don't think there will come along any individual as gifted in music and as motivated (whether by society or personally) to even attempt to compose classical-style music. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, but some of, say Beethoven's works were simply astounding in genius. It sucks to think that no musician will ever again try to emulate baroque/classical/romantic music again (using "classical" to encompass the non-modern music, aka baroque/classical/romantic, I suppose).
It's almost something of a lost art; kids lean music to be good at it (stereotype=asian kids for colleges in america lol), and never really realize just how beautiful what they're playing really is sometimes. Technically yes, I guess you could say that there is no immediate value in that type of music in contemporary times, but if there ever were some form of [literal] art that were dying out, it's classical music. It definitely takes a devoted musician to appreciate it (really no patrons for that kind of music nowadays too lol, only for performers to a certain degree), but man...much of it is pure genius, and classical music still does live on to an extent but there is little true appreciation for it in the world for understandable reasons, but it's still sort of sad ;__; you are a little retro in your thinking, there is very very very masterful composers equal to beethoven. they are being produced. they are not stars of the world, but it is a niche genre anyway. time can make hero's of mostly ordinary men. be careful not to fall into that trap.....
Yeah, I realize my post turned into a rant/rose-colored-glasses sort of thinking, but I sort of had to vent in a sense >.<
I recognize that there will always be composers of his caliber that are born, but I guess I feel more like society nowadays encourages composers to stay far away from classical music in particular, if people do decide to go into music. I meant more that it's a shame that the period of classical music is over. There are, of course, still many amazing composers, but for all intents and purposes, there are no more compositions in that style. There are orchestral works which, while astoundingly good and definitely brilliant, are more in line with where the money goes--e.g. movies scores. And I still don't think John Williams is as brilliant as Beethoven ;P
So yeah, it's just very unfortunate that it's a very little-cared for genre now, and I guess my points were 1) that few people decide to compose in the classical style, 2) that those who do, generally don't seem to match up to the genius of some of the composers of antiquity, and 3) it's not very much appreciated anymore except by a niche now, as you said.
For example I adore various electronica artists and there are some artists in particular that I find mindblowingly good and are surely geniuses. However, the pool of classical music is essentially static, is what I'm getting at, I guess. I pretty much agree with you though and your second post. :>
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^
i think whats good tho, is like..... if we stop thinking of classical music as a certain instrumentation or whatever, it becomes a more optimistic situation.
someone like Flying Lotus..... an electronic guy. he really knows whats going on. if you just instrumentated some of his stuff to fit a string quartet or whatever, you would have really fresh classical music. the problem is there isnt a "culture" around it anymore. for a lot of young people (up and coming consumers of music, the most important) they need to associate with the lifestyle that ties into the music, the music does not exist in an idealistic bubble for them.
so is there another beethoven? nah, but we get flying lotus, ben monder, aphex twin, steve reich, nico muhly , owen pallett, etc...
composers will always use what they have at hand, right? bach with his harpsichord works.... bach didnt composer for piano becuase it didnt really...... well, exist. would he have enjoyed it? i dont see why not. same goes for beethoven and say, synthesizer.
we live in a time where the lines of a genre are blurring, anyone can do anything, its very quite cool. so if one opens up what "classical" music is, they will see that the spirit of it is truly alive. those who are exploring soundscapes and harmonies both dense and minimal.
it is the "culture" around it that kills your definition of classical. old guys in suits who only wanna hear the 9th symphony, etc.
a bit stream of thought, but basically......
dont worry, music is in good hands.
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^
"the king is dead, long live the king" type shit
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Mm, well-put. Music will never truly die, isn't declining, and is constantly evolving, amen brotha.
Just...sometimes I wish I could get my hands on another Waldstein 
But yeah, really well-put. ^^ music <3
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haha ye, there were some truly unique voices , and its sad when they die because suddenly their output becomes finite.
GOOD SHIT MAN!!!
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Yeah...good shit indeed :3
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If learning music is painful then I think something's wrong with the teaching method. Guess there's a distinction between learning as a lay person and training to be a professional some day. The former should be pretty enjoyable I would think.
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music is actually a very interesting thing to learn. not saying that subjects like math aren't (and I *love* math), but the skills music demands of you is an interesting combination of different things you need to exercise at the same time that otherwise wouldn't ever be used together.
performing music trains the following areas:
1. hand-eye coordination, as in sports, but at a finer level than most sports (sensory skills as opposed to abstract thinking)
2. artistic, creative expression (development of an intuition-based judgment instead of quantitative)
3. memory
also, music has a very responsive feedback loop - if you listen to yourself play, you immediately know whether or not you're doing something right or wrong, so in theory it SHOULD be easy to get kids to practice. (personally, I think most parents go about encouraging kids in a silly way)
now, it might be that learning music trains you ONLY in how to use these skills in conjunction together, so that learning music only makes you good at music. BUT, I don't think this is the case, so learning music should at least affect the way you think and may have interesting benefits.
I haven't really done any research to tell me what, if any, of these benefits have been scientifically proven and documented. I do think that (based on personal experience, at least), it's worthwhile to introduce music as one of many different activities that help develop cognitive abilities in a kid's life.
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There is a great bulk of research you can find if you care to look for it, as mentioned before, that proves there are significant benefits to be gained from learning an instrument. This http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/advocacy/benefits.html sums up many such studies and lists the sources should you care to read more about it.
Whether or not a child likes something really shouldn't play a large role in the parent's decision to have them do it. Even if you prefer candy, sorry you're gonna have to eat whole grains and vegetables... terrible parenting right there.
It's good to give children instrument options, and I am definitely against the crazy parents who make their kids practice for 6 hours a day, but it is flat out good for children to learn an instrument. It physically changes your brain and improves intelligence. I can't help but feel your rant is pretty uninformed.
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Learning the piano raises your iq by a few points. Also, if you want a child to develop perfect pitch, you need to start them early.
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I think the discussion is off topic. We're no longer discussing the relevance of music to other subjects but rather music as a whole.
On May 20 2012 18:20 Nonexistent wrote:
Learning the piano raises your iq by a few points. Also, if you want a child to develop perfect pitch, you need to start them early.
No it doesn't.
One of the links on the page red linked.
http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/advocacy/canmusicmake.html
"The answer is 'no' in a superficial sense," Hodges said. In 1993, experimenters claimed that listening to a Mozart sonata would make your IQ increase by eight points. Subsequent work, Hodges explained, proved that such listening would sharpen a subject's spatial-temporal relationships momentarily. After a short while, the subject would go back to being just as smart as before. Or dumb.
Sure music would make you have a higher IQ, temporarily, but it goes away if you stop practicing. Same could be said of anything.
The exact page you linked Red uses anecdotal evidenceAny music teacher or parent of a music student can call to mind anecdotes about effectiveness of music study in helping children become better students. , draws links where they shouldn't be, and doesn't account for the type of errors that scientific studies should. It also uses the fact that the brain lights up when playing music as evidence that musicians are smarter.  Their brains were scanned using a technique called "functional magnetic resource imaging" (fMRI) which detects the activity levels of brain cells. The non-musicians were able to make the movements as correctly as the pianists, but less activity was detected in the pianists' brains. Thus, compared to non-musicians, the brains of pianists are more efficient at making skilled movements.
The best evidence that music is more useful than another study is the study on music providing more temporal reasoning than other subjects, and music class improving math scores more than computer classes. But that isn't enough to answer the question: Why the obsession with music?
The question of whether the arts is useful has already been beaten to death in the thread by Empryan: Honestly, what is the purpose of art these days.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195892
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I think it's important to offer a child a variety of options & experiences.
So a small bit of "force" to make it learn play an instrument - why not. My sister played piano, I played flute, when we were very young (~6). Our parents "forced" us to learn them for about 2-3 years (dont remember).
Then we both quit - because we were not interested in it anymore.
Later with 14 my sister wanted to learn to play th guitar. She did that as well for 3-4 years and had an easier time thanks to her earlier piano lessons.
I personally was never interested in playing another instrument again.
My parents also forced us to play a sport (I stuck with football (soccer) for a very long time).
They also forced us to learn to dance (standard / latin dances) for 6 months - which I enjoyed and stuck with for 4 years in the end (since I met a girlfriend during the dancing lessons^^).
I think I'd sum it up with:
"Here try this out - you would never start it on your own, but there are a lot of people who enjoy it. You might be one of the, even though you think you're not."
Forcing it for a longer period of time (3+ years) seems to be stupid though. You'd know if you enjoy it after such a long period
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Life is all about expression.
Giving your kids music is giving them another way of being able to express themselves.
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For those that say playing music provides discipline to kids. Then why not force them into athletics? You get in shape at the same time and you also learn discipline from training a lot of days regardless if u really wanted to or not.
Plus if u also decide to quit you get health points. If you ever decide to quit an instrument you dont really get any benefits from it. Unless u wanna pick it back up at an another time or something... But i still think having better heatlh is a bigger benefit.
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People should learn it if they want but if they dont want to then dont. Its simple as that.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/forgot_algebra.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/every_majors_terrible.png)
