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1. Finally logged in after three hours post launch.
2. Fuck all you people who complained about the rainbow... The demo video with the golden fields was way more appealing than the dull grey scenery that I'm running around in.
3. Too much like Titan Quest. It's like they even made the running more chunky so it could be more like Titan Quest.
4. A lot of stuff is disgusting me but not scaring me (e.g. Grotesque worms).
5. Not really fearing for my character's survival.
6. Feeling bored with all the same types of monsters for too long, not really eager to keep playing after having spent five hours on it.
  
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dull grey scenery? What game are you playing?
It isn't my little pony, but all ultra settings the game has an awesomely vibrant feel to it.
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welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me.
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Hard to believe you're talking about the same game I stayed up half the night playing and am itching out of my skin to get home and play 
I played each character to level 5 in the beta weekend, so last night was my first time level past that (got to level 10 before finishing) and wow was I having fun. The boss's have got tougher and tougher and there really was an immense sense of doom in the last few fights.
I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game.
Anyway, they're never going to please everyone so it sucks you aren't feeling it, but I for one am really loving it so far - it was well worth the 10+ year wait
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On May 16 2012 00:58 Pure-SC2 wrote:Hard to believe you're talking about the same game I stayed up half the night playing and am itching out of my skin to get home and play I played each character to level 5 in the beta weekend, so last night was my first time level past that (got to level 10 before finishing) and wow was I having fun. The boss's have got tougher and tougher and there really was an immense sense of doom in the last few fights. I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game. Anyway, they're never going to please everyone so it sucks you aren't feeling it, but I for one am really loving it so far - it was well worth the 10+ year wait
Maybe it's just that I'm older now (was around 12 when Diablo came out). Put it this way - if an expansion was released tomorrow, I won't be buying it. It honestly does just feel like Titan Quest.
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Having played Titan Quest for the first and last time at a LAN with friends and then passed out of boredom and alcohol but never touched Diablo can you explain your comparison a bit more in detail? Because I'm not sure if I want to invest time in D3...
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On May 16 2012 01:56 Jayson X wrote:
Having played Titan Quest for the first and last time at a LAN with friends and then passed out of boredom and alcohol but never touched Diablo can you explain your comparison a bit more in detail? Because I'm not sure if I want to invest time in D3...
It's got the same 'feel' to it. The running around feels the same as Titan Quest - it's sort of like the character is running but the pacing seems really weird. Like TQ, the killing of enemies is 'choppy'. You can't spam the shit out of attacks like in Diablo 2. Arguably you're still spamming, but it feels like TQ spamming, not D2 spamming. If you've played both D2 and TQ then you'll know what I mean. Then throw in the whole 'waypoints' thing, the buying and selling of items (even the boxes look more like the TQ format). A whole load of redundant items being dropped that are forgettable given that you rely more on skills anyway. The more I think about it, the more it just feels like a Titan Quest rip-off with better graphics.
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On May 16 2012 00:32 Mango Chicken wrote:
1. Finally logged in after three hours post launch.
2. Fuck all you people who complained about the rainbow... The demo video with the golden fields was way more appealing than the dull grey scenery that I'm running around in.
3. Too much like Titan Quest. It's like they even made the running more chunky so it could be more like Titan Quest.
4. A lot of stuff is disgusting me but not scaring me (e.g. Grotesque worms).
5. Not really fearing for my character's survival.
6. Feeling bored with all the same types of monsters for too long, not really eager to keep playing after having spent five hours on it.
titan quest was a literal d2 clone
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Textures look like complete shit. Skills are boring, especially for witchdoctor. Items seem to have WAY less mods than d2. Bosses are wayy to easy. Game feels too "gamey" pretty much the entire way through. Achievements popping up every 10 seconds, inside of buildings looking nothing like the outside, rooms obviously made to be boss rooms. Horrible clipping issues with all of my barbarian's gear.
Also wayy to many fucking obvious nods to older diablo games. Did we really need to remake the Butcher and make him say "ahh fresh meat?" Really? Every time there is some obvious "HEY REMEMBER THIS FROM D2 LOL?" thing I just groan.
I had such high hopes for this game, but it's so boring and generic, and missing a lot of the charm and atmosphere of d2 or even d1.
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On May 16 2012 00:48 Skilledblob wrote:
welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me.
I'll say it again, what made Diablo 2 awesome was the ability to build a unique character; tweaking states, making tough decisions about skill points; knowing that you're character was one of a hundred different permutations of just that one class. Gave the game a ton of replay-ability, you could play through as a sorceress with 4 different elemental focuses, or try to be a bad ass and mix them together.
But Blizzard WoW-ized D3. The skill system is now linear and boring, you can't spend hours tweaking stats, or figuring out how best to build your character so you can use that one badass weapon.
D2 was never known for its visuals, gameplay mechanics weren't anything revolutionary, and the storyline could at times feel a bit flat. Take away the awesome character system, and I'm not sure what's left. I'll probably get the game when it comes down in price a ways, but there's no way in hell (no pun) I'm going to spend $60 for demon-y version of WoW. If I felt the need to play a WoW-like game, I'd just go play WoW.
It sucks that Blizzard destroyed one of the best RPGs ever, but what's worse is the legions of WoW players talking about how awesome this game is; not having played D2 and having no idea how awesome this game should have been. 
-edit: Odal thanks, almost forgot about the boatloat of items in D2; magic items, unique items, rare items, sets, and the ability to literally craft your own items with the horodric cube.
-edit2:
On May 16 2012 00:58 Pure-SC2 wrote:
I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game.
Considering how static the skill system is, your character is pretty much similar to every other character of the same class and level. At max level, they will be exactly the same character. Exactly. All of the customization of D2 is gone, the ability to create different character builds, with different skill sets, with different armor--all of it is gone.
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Haven't played the game, but I didn't like what I saw so far. The visuals look childish - this seems to be a Blizzard trademark. As pointed out before, there's nothing scary or really diabolic.
Tristram was creepy as fuck, and so was the cloister. I miss that feeling, the danger, the fear, the loneliness.
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I didnt expect much from this game. Turns out blizzard failed to deliver again. Its sad to think that most of blizzards talent left with Blizzard North.
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On May 16 2012 03:06 Kukaracha wrote:
Haven't played the game, but I didn't like what I saw so far. The visuals look childish - this seems to be a Blizzard trademark. As pointed out before, there's nothing scary or really diabolic.
Tristram was creepy as fuck, and so was the cloister. I miss that feeling, the danger, the fear, the loneliness.
I always thought that the sand maggot nest in Act II was the creepiest.
-edit: I actually worry sometimes that people born after like 1995 will never get to experience what it's like to play a REALLY good game. It's sad in some ways that people think the SC2 single player was good, when compared to BW it's actually quite bad and extremely boring. + Show Spoiler +just talking about the single player campaign, multiplayer is still good
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I haven't played it yet and I actually do not intend to. But I loved D2 to death and I'm interested in the runes: apparently they are the replacement for your skill tree (WTF) and customize your character. How well does this system actually work? As Toast said, I loved every single skill and stat point in D2, always having those red boxes on the side of your screen, saving up till you met the next level requirement and then spend them all. Oh, so glorious *nostalgy*
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I dunno, I played D2 for years and years and I'm absolutely loving D3 so far. (I'm 22 btw) I like all the little throwbacks and I'm pretty into the story. Most importantly it feels like Diablo to me. I was lucky enough to get in really early and before I knew it I'd been playing for 11 hours. About to go get some sleep and wake up ready for another session. 
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The game is awesome. The support for it right now is inadequate, but I've spent a good 6 hours on the game and I love almost everything about it. Definately better than d2 in every aspect... except that swapping skills is a little bit too easy, I dont feel much dedication to my build.
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I can understand why d3 won't appeal to the d2 fanboys in that it caters to the casual gamers more, with the lack of customization mostly. However, I actually enjoy this change because unlike my hs years in d2 where I could spend hours learning new builds and planning out the characters, I don't have that time luxury now as an adult, so now I don't have to fret about whether I made the right choice putting that point in a skill, and I don't have to make 5 different sorcs if I wanted to try out new things (before they implemented the skill reset).
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Play hardcore, you'll fear for your hero's survivability. tehehehehe.
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On May 16 2012 02:49 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 00:48 Skilledblob wrote:
welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me. I'll say it again, what made Diablo 2 awesome was the ability to build a unique character; tweaking states, making tough decisions about skill points; knowing that you're character was one of a hundred different permutations of just that one class. Gave the game a ton of replay-ability, you could play through as a sorceress with 4 different elemental focuses, or try to be a bad ass and mix them together. But Blizzard WoW-ized D3. The skill system is now linear and boring, you can't spend hours tweaking stats, or figuring out how best to build your character so you can use that one badass weapon. D2 was never known for its visuals, gameplay mechanics weren't anything revolutionary, and the storyline could at times feel a bit flat. Take away the awesome character system, and I'm not sure what's left. I'll probably get the game when it comes down in price a ways, but there's no way in hell (no pun) I'm going to spend $60 for demon-y version of WoW. If I felt the need to play a WoW-like game, I'd just go play WoW. It sucks that Blizzard destroyed one of the best RPGs ever, but what's worse is the legions of WoW players talking about how awesome this game is; not having played D2 and having no idea how awesome this game should have been. -edit: Odal thanks, almost forgot about the boatloat of items in D2; magic items, unique items, rare items, sets, and the ability to literally craft your own items with the horodric cube.
^^
This is a man who understands Diablo 2. These features are the best part of D2 from the very beginning, and got better as the game grew (expac and even some of the patches). The weak skill/gear systems are the main reasons I don't plan to buy D3, at least until the price comes down. That, combined with a real money auction system (which is bullshit), really eliminates everything that was great about D2.
Lets put it this way. You're never going to enter a Diablo 3 game and hear someone say, "Ooh, what kind of character is that. It's sick," or "Hey, check out this awesome build/set."
On May 16 2012 05:09 spacemonkey4eve wrote:
I can understand why d3 won't appeal to the d2 fanboys in that it caters to the casual gamers more, with the lack of customization mostly. However, I actually enjoy this change because unlike my hs years in d2 where I could spend hours learning new builds and planning out the characters, I don't have that time luxury now as an adult, so now I don't have to fret about whether I made the right choice putting that point in a skill, and I don't have to make 5 different sorcs if I wanted to try out new things (before they implemented the skill reset).
Yeah, but they did implement a skill reset. It was a really simple but really important fix to a major quality of life issue in D2. They could have done the same thing for D3 from launch, and it would have been great.
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I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype.
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On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype.
I was watching Kripparian's stream all day, and even though he rushed through the game, it seemed really linear and repetitive. I'm never gonna spend 77$ (60€) on a game that is nothing compared to skyrim.
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I wish I could form a positive opinion...
but stupid Blizzard with their launch day catastrophe all over again won't let me in to play.
I couldn't test the 2 day open beta either b/c my comp was broken at the time.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I'm a diehard D1 & D2 fan, but somehow, I found it easy to stay away from D3.
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On May 16 2012 07:07 Telcontar wrote:
I'm a diehard D1 & D2 fan, but somehow, I found it easy to stay away from D3.
Idk, I'm still a bit curious to play it. But not for $60. Maayybee for $40, we'll see.
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United States5162 Posts
The only thing I can complain about is the server issues and the fact that for some reason public games rarely get above 2 people. I love everything about the game so far.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I find it to be very fun to play and its definitely worth the money
that being said I do aswell miss the skillpoint system that was present in Diablo 2.
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On May 16 2012 02:34 Odal wrote:
Textures look like complete shit. Skills are boring, especially for witchdoctor. Items seem to have WAY less mods than d2. Bosses are wayy to easy. Game feels too "gamey" pretty much the entire way through. Achievements popping up every 10 seconds, inside of buildings looking nothing like the outside, rooms obviously made to be boss rooms. Horrible clipping issues with all of my barbarian's gear.
Also wayy to many fucking obvious nods to older diablo games. Did we really need to remake the Butcher and make him say "ahh fresh meat?" Really? Every time there is some obvious "HEY REMEMBER THIS FROM D2 LOL?" thing I just groan.
I had such high hopes for this game, but it's so boring and generic, and missing a lot of the charm and atmosphere of d2 or even d1.
Pretty much my sentiments, really wish I could get my money back. :/
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I agree with most of you... Not worth the 60 bucks.
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Torchlight 2 here I come. =)
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I'm stuck in China and I already bought Diablo 3 through the 1 year WoW deal, this blows.
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On May 16 2012 05:19 wei2coolman wrote:
Play hardcore, you'll fear for your hero's survivability. tehehehehe.
I don't know, I just got disconnected (for the third or fourth time) and it's pretty much the same as dying. I just don't feel any desire to go back and replay all the parts I've already played. Getting a bit bored to be honest, kind of want to go watch some porn instead.
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On May 16 2012 12:30 Mango Chicken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 05:19 wei2coolman wrote:
Play hardcore, you'll fear for your hero's survivability. tehehehehe. I don't know, I just got disconnected (for the third or fourth time) and it's pretty much the same as dying. I just don't feel any desire to go back and replay all the parts I've already played. Getting a bit bored to be honest, kind of want to go watch some porn instead.
That's always been the trouble with hardcore. If there's any server instability or your connection isn't perfect, you're way more likely to die to a crash or lag spike than an actual error on your part.
I wish there's was a middle of the road way to play, say you lose all your gear or like 3 levels when you die, but you can keep playing that character. Hardcore is brutal.
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On May 16 2012 12:40 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 12:30 Mango Chicken wrote:On May 16 2012 05:19 wei2coolman wrote:
Play hardcore, you'll fear for your hero's survivability. tehehehehe. I don't know, I just got disconnected (for the third or fourth time) and it's pretty much the same as dying. I just don't feel any desire to go back and replay all the parts I've already played. Getting a bit bored to be honest, kind of want to go watch some porn instead. That's always been the trouble with hardcore. If there's any server instability or your connection isn't perfect, you're way more likely to die to a crash or lag spike than an actual error on your part. I wish there's was a middle of the road way to play, say you lose all your gear or like 3 levels when you die, but you can keep playing that character. Hardcore is brutal.
People talk to me like Hardcore is for real men when in reality 90% of the time I died even in Softcore in D2 was because of connection lag on blizzard's side or on my side, or a computer bug or popup that caused the game to minimize or something like that.
I'm good enough to not die, but there are other factors that'll screw me
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Thankfully a friend gifted my wife a copy of d3 so I can check it out tomorrow and see if I actually want my own copy or not.
I am suddenly nostalgic though for d2 and want to buy it again ( god knows where my old copy went) but apprently there are problems with older games and windows 7 compatibility.
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On May 16 2012 02:49 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 00:48 Skilledblob wrote:
welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me. I'll say it again, what made Diablo 2 awesome was the ability to build a unique character; tweaking states, making tough decisions about skill points; knowing that you're character was one of a hundred different permutations of just that one class. Gave the game a ton of replay-ability, you could play through as a sorceress with 4 different elemental focuses, or try to be a bad ass and mix them together. But Blizzard WoW-ized D3. The skill system is now linear and boring, you can't spend hours tweaking stats, or figuring out how best to build your character so you can use that one badass weapon. D2 was never known for its visuals, gameplay mechanics weren't anything revolutionary, and the storyline could at times feel a bit flat. Take away the awesome character system, and I'm not sure what's left. I'll probably get the game when it comes down in price a ways, but there's no way in hell (no pun) I'm going to spend $60 for demon-y version of WoW. If I felt the need to play a WoW-like game, I'd just go play WoW. It sucks that Blizzard destroyed one of the best RPGs ever, but what's worse is the legions of WoW players talking about how awesome this game is; not having played D2 and having no idea how awesome this game should have been. -edit: Odal thanks, almost forgot about the boatloat of items in D2; magic items, unique items, rare items, sets, and the ability to literally craft your own items with the horodric cube. -edit2: Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 00:58 Pure-SC2 wrote:
I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game.
Considering how static the skill system is, your character is pretty much similar to every other character of the same class and level. At max level, they will be exactly the same character. Exactly. All of the customization of D2 is gone, the ability to create different character builds, with different skill sets, with different armor--all of it is gone.
This is so wrong. Diablo 3 is 10x more unique than diablo 2 was. Spell customization is so free and you can have so many different types of skills it's insane as well as the room to experiment. I don't know how you can say what you said when there's like 5 abilities per slot and 5 runes per ability. How did diablo 2 have that type of customization? You say hours building your character but in reality it's just doing cookie cutter builds. At least wait until you even get to hell to say you're not gonna be optimizing your character. Are you even at nightmare yet? Normal was a joke, but once you get to the end of act 1 nightmare you'll know what I mean when you really need to start thinking about what you're gonna use and how.
Yeah, diablo 2 made you recreate a character from scratch and grind your way back up to try new builds. In diablo 3 you can freely switch between specs *SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE ITEMS TO DO SO*. What's the problem here?
And uhh, diablo 3 has magic items, unique items, rare, items, sets as well. Who knows what else there is in hell or inferno? The horadric cube for crafting your own items was meant for probably the .001% of the top end of players who could afford to do it.
I seriously love the people compaining about how the game is easy on normal. NO FUCKING SHIT. Diablo 2 was a joke on normal as well, and once you get to hell and inferno difficulties please tell me it's too easy. I'm at the end of act 1 on nightmare and it is NOTICEABLY harder.
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United States2822 Posts
I'm doing to disagree with everything said in this thread.
1) I never enjoyed the "spam two skills" mentality of late game Diablo 2. Walk from point A to point B and hit [Whirlwind|Shockwave|Multishot|Bone Spear|Blessed Hammer|Frozen Orb| etc.] Repeat. Through playing three classes up through Act 3, I've actually had to use every single one of the six skills on my hotbar in different scenarios. I've switched between runes for skills because each runed skill feels completely different. Magic Missile with the Split rune is more like Teeth than any other spell, and normal Magic Missile is like Bone Spear. Despite being called Magic Missile, the "few" number of skills is incredibly deceptive.
2) I died. On normal. Partially because of idiocy, partially because of bad luck with enemy spawns. But I noticed something - because of the existence of health orbs that refresh your health at the end of every fight, Blizzard can afford to make each individual encounter more damaging because they expect you to be at top health going into the next encounter. That makes each individual encounter much more dangerous.
3) As far as feeling dark goes... I'm just going to leave a few things in a spoiler tag. + Show Spoiler +Halls of Agony Act 1, anyone?
4) I played through Titan Quest: Immortal Throne, and I have to say... no. Running doesn't feel the same at all, especially once you get your movement skills like Vault, Spirit Walk, Teleport, Leap/Charge etc.
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If you guys played Diablo 2 using cookie cutter builds, basic armor, and only spamming 2 spells, you did it wrong. I could probably give you half a dozen completely different, viable builds for each class, most of which have multiple varients. Add the massive variability in gear and oskills and you've got a tremendously diverse game with huge min/max potential.
The problem isn't that anyone can sit down and make a decent character (this is a good thing). It's that players who want to take it farther are limited. The variety of characters possible in Diablo 2 gave it a surprising amount of depth and a ton of replay value. D3 might be an awesome game, but how many people will still be playing it in a year? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?
It makes practical sense to make a game that's fun at first and then dies off. Without a pay-to-play structure, they'll make most of their money off initial sales anyway. It's easier for them if they have to maintain fewer servers in the long term.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 16 2012 13:54 Omnipresent wrote:
If you guys played Diablo 2 using cookie cutter builds, basic armor, and only spamming 2 spells, you did it wrong. I could probably give you half a dozen completely different, viable builds for each class, most of which have multiple varients. Add the massive variability in gear and oskills and you've got a tremendously diverse game with huge min/max potential.
Even with different viable builds, 99% of skills were either taken at 1 point, or at 20 points. You could have interesting custom builds, but chances are you still took 20 points in core skills + 1 point in prereqs or 1-point wonders. The fact that people so rarely left skills on ranks 2 through 19 means there's very little reason for those skills to actually HAVE ranks 2-19.
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Hmm I'm enjoying it quite a bit so far... more so after I got to the middle/end of Act 2 than earlier on.
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On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype.
game is still super fun though.
but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp?
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Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else.
Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it.
EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it 
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Played it through Normal mode, so far I'm really loving this game (when the server is up). Playing my Wizard, I honestly feel like all the skills are quite useful and the trick is to figure out the right combination that suits you the best. I don't think you could have used a skill point system with this at all. Launch was pretty rocky I have to admit though due to server instability but as a GAME, this is honestly the best I've played in a very long time.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp?
Given how little Blizzard cares about PvP, I doubt they designed the game around it.
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On May 16 2012 17:35 Tobberoth wrote:Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else. Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it. EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it
you realize they added respecs into diablo 2, right?
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On May 16 2012 19:21 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 17:35 Tobberoth wrote:Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else. Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it. EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it you realize they added respecs into diablo 2, right?
You realize it was a bitch to get several respecs and that in D3 you can literally change your build in the middle of a dungeon, several times?
How does your comment matter, at all?
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On May 16 2012 19:22 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 19:21 Odal wrote:On May 16 2012 17:35 Tobberoth wrote:Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else. Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it. EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it you realize they added respecs into diablo 2, right? You realize it was a bitch to get several respecs and that in D3 you can literally change your build in the middle of a dungeon, several times? How does your comment matter, at all?
Doing the very first quest is a bitch? how?
Also your smug posts don't help your obviously wrong delusions.
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On May 16 2012 19:22 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 19:21 Odal wrote:On May 16 2012 17:35 Tobberoth wrote:Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else. Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it. EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it you realize they added respecs into diablo 2, right? You realize it was a bitch to get several respecs and that in D3 you can literally change your build in the middle of a dungeon, several times? How does your comment matter, at all?
Defensive much? He was just correcting a mistake you made.
3 respecs just for doing crap you're going to do anyway and a really easy (or cheap, if you don't want to grind it) way to get as many more as you want is pretty good.
Also, if you think D3 gives you the same level of customization as D2, you didn't do much customizing in D2. I get that you don't like D2, but it was hugely successful and is still pretty popular. People just want to see the some of the features that made it successful in its successor.
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On May 16 2012 19:29 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 19:22 Tobberoth wrote:On May 16 2012 19:21 Odal wrote:On May 16 2012 17:35 Tobberoth wrote:Surprised that people are negative, Diablo 3 is lightyears better than Diablo 2 (which isn't surprising since Diablo 2 is a huge overrated PoS). People think there's no customization just because they removed the fact that you're completely locked-in, in Diablo 2 you seriously have to create a character from scratch if you want to try something else. Pretty much any customization you did in Diablo 2 you can do in Diablo 3.... you simply have the ability to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with it. EDIT: To everyone who is disappointed and think D3 is boring: PLEASE, don't play it! We need that server space for those of us who "gets" it you realize they added respecs into diablo 2, right? You realize it was a bitch to get several respecs and that in D3 you can literally change your build in the middle of a dungeon, several times? How does your comment matter, at all? Defensive much? He was just correcting a mistake you made. 3 respecs just for doing crap you're going to do anyway and a really easy (or cheap, if you don't want to grind it) way to get as many more as you want is pretty good. Also, if you think D3 gives you the same level of customization as D2, you didn't do much customizing in D2. I get that you don't like D2, but it was hugely successful and is still pretty popular. People just want to see the some of the features that made it successful in its successor.
Point is that you're not going to be switching between several specs on a character in D2, you made new characters for the specs you wanted. You don't have to do that in D3, you can have tons of builds you like and switch between them whenever you want. It's a pure improvement.
I'd love for people to let me know of all the amazing customization they did in D2 which is so superior to how it's done in D3. "Dude, I put more into strength than into vitality because... uh." Awesome customization, gratz. 90% of customizaiton in D2 was pretty much just what your main skills were, which is the exact same in D3. Playing a wizard using diamond armor and spectral blades to fight effectively in close combat is completely different from playing a wizard focusing on teleports and character-centric aoes, which is again completely different from a wizard focusing on range skills.
People just like to bitch when developers modernize a concept and take it to a different level. Everything is worse when you're filled with nostalgia.
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People need to stop using the word customization as some kind of holy part of a game which needs to be as high as possible. Customization is in many cases a bad thing. They could allow you to change your character stats, armor stats, weapon stats, specs, sockets, skills, etc, etc. But that wouldnt necessarily make it a better game just because you add all that.
If you're familiar with WoW for example there specs, enchants, glyphs, reforging, gemming and maybe more, and far from all of them add any kind of depth to the game. Glyphs for example have been mostly about picking the cookie cutter ones since they came, and gemming is just another extra thing you have to do every time you get a piece of gear. "Sigh, gotta by another round of str/agi/int gems again". Specs is another topic which you can say a lot about, but lets just sum it up with that it hasnt been very interesting (way too many "increase you damage by 3%" talents which are mandatory) but that they're definitely taking a step forward in Mists of Pandaria.
Theres quite a few caveats you gotta worry about when adding customization.
If you make it so that theres a one good way of customizing and thousands of bad ways, its just becoming a noob trap where you gotta do your googling before you make your character. Diablo2 skills is a good example of that, where the right way to spec was to pump all your points into a few selected skills and leave the rest with 1 point in them where you had to. However, for anyone who didnt immediately figure that out or did his research, you could end up with thousands of random bad raidbow specs with points everywhere (been there, done that myself in my noob D2 days).
Then theres the illusion of customization when theres only one good choice. You shouldnt for example make 10 type of gems if every class is just gonna spam his one cookie cutter gem into all gem slots. Then gemming becomes just an added extra annoyance you gotta keep doing with your gear.
If you can avoid those (and probably other too) caveats when designing your customization system, and actually make customization interesting, meaningsful and without cookie cutter builds, then it can indeed be a very very good thing. But making stuff customizable doesnt always equal making it better.
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On May 16 2012 19:53 Kreb wrote:
Customization is in many cases a bad thing.
What. inventing and experimenting with builds was basically the main reason D2 has so much replay value. And customization is fucking huge in multiplayer RPGs.
Nobody grinded loot for the sake of loot. And because of the way D3 works with class specific loot and shit, you're basically going to always have the best "Witch Doctor chest" And not be collecting loot for your blizz sorc, or trading for a nigma to use on your hammerdin. There will be no replay value once you finish inferno. No trying new builds, no nothing.
Not to mention that individual skills are so boring that nobody will even want to make builds based around them when the higher level skills look so much cooler.
Also the whole mindset of "the illusion of choice" is complete bullshit. The best part of diablo 2 is that you could have tons of fun and be viable with suboptimal builds because it isn't a competitive game. There were so many crazy stats on items and weird skills that you could make completely absurd builds work, even in hell. If anything, diablo 3 is the one with the true illusion of choice. Skill runes and shit are completely boring, and remind me a lot of the shitty bloated talent trees in wotlk WoW.
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On May 16 2012 19:53 Kreb wrote:
People need to stop using the word customization as some kind of holy part of a game which needs to be as high as possible. Customization is in many cases a bad thing. They could allow you to change your character stats, armor stats, weapon stats, specs, sockets, skills, etc, etc. But that wouldnt necessarily make it a better game just because you add all that.
If you're familiar with WoW for example there specs, enchants, glyphs, reforging, gemming and maybe more, and far from all of them add any kind of depth to the game. Glyphs for example have been mostly about picking the cookie cutter ones since they came, and gemming is just another extra thing you have to do every time you get a piece of gear. "Sigh, gotta by another round of str/agi/int gems again". Specs is another topic which you can say a lot about, but lets just sum it up with that it hasnt been very interesting (way too many "increase you damage by 3%" talents which are mandatory) but that they're definitely taking a step forward in Mists of Pandaria.
Theres quite a few caveats you gotta worry about when adding customization.
If you make it so that theres a one good way of customizing and thousands of bad ways, its just becoming a noob trap where you gotta do your googling before you make your character. Diablo2 skills is a good example of that, where the right way to spec was to pump all your points into a few selected skills and leave the rest with 1 point in them where you had to. However, for anyone who didnt immediately figure that out or did his research, you could end up with thousands of random bad raidbow specs with points everywhere (been there, done that myself in my noob D2 days).
Then theres the illusion of customization when theres only one good choice. You shouldnt for example make 10 type of gems if every class is just gonna spam his one cookie cutter gem into all gem slots. Then gemming becomes just an added extra annoyance you gotta keep doing with your gear.
If you can avoid those (and probably other too) caveats when designing your customization system, and actually make customization interesting, meaningsful and without cookie cutter builds, then it can indeed be a very very good thing. But making stuff customizable doesnt always equal making it better.
I think you're confling two different things. There are two types of complexity: complexity that adds depth and complexity that doesn't.
You're mostly right about WoW specs. There is pretty much always a right and wrong answer for whatever you're trying to do (not always for pvp, but 95% of the time).
Diablo 2 is differen't. Of course, there are obvious specs that make a ton of sense. Something like a blizz or orb scorceress would be a good example. Max the right talents. Pick some flavor. That's about it.
Try this though. Boot up your D2 and roll an aura/zeal scorceress. You need a Dream helm/shield, passion phase blade, dragon armor if you want it (though there are better options), a bunch of IAS/survivability gear, and then an infinity merc. Then grab some survival talents and lightning synergies. If you pay careful attention, you can min/max the shit out of something like this. This is a totally off the wall build, and it happens to be ridiculously good. There are dozens of other builds like this.
It's true, complexity doesn't guarentee depth. But lets be clear. Blizzard doesn't limit choices because they think it's more fun or a better overall system. They limit choices because it's so hard for them to balance everything if players have too many options. With millions of players trying differen't things, someone will eventually come up with something that is "too good." If you've ever seen the videos of a rogue tanking raid bosses from BC WoW (when BC was live and the content was somewhat relevant), you know what I'm talking about.
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On May 16 2012 04:05 xBillehx wrote:I dunno, I played D2 for years and years and I'm absolutely loving D3 so far. (I'm 22 btw) I like all the little throwbacks and I'm pretty into the story. Most importantly it feels like Diablo to me. I was lucky enough to get in really early and before I knew it I'd been playing for 11 hours. About to go get some sleep and wake up ready for another session.
Same here. Exactly the same here. I'm 21 and i'm lovin' the game.
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On May 16 2012 20:07 Odal wrote:What. inventing and experimenting with builds was basically the main reason D2 has so much replay value. And customization is fucking huge in multiplayer RPGs. Nobody grinded loot for the sake of loot. And because of the way D3 works with class specific loot and shit, you're basically going to always have the best "Witch Doctor chest" And not be collecting loot for your blizz sorc, or trading for a nigma to use on your hammerdin. There will be no replay value once you finish inferno. No trying new builds, no nothing. Not to mention that individual skills are so boring that nobody will even want to make builds based around them when the higher level skills look so much cooler. Also the whole mindset of "the illusion of choice" is complete bullshit. The best part of diablo 2 is that you could have tons of fun and be viable with suboptimal builds because it isn't a competitive game. There were so many crazy stats on items and weird skills that you could make completely absurd builds work, even in hell. If anything, diablo 3 is the one with the true illusion of choice. Skill runes and shit are completely boring, and remind me a lot of the shitty bloated talent trees in wotlk WoW.
Somewhat strange post. First you quote a statement of mine in its lonliness and mostly ignore my further arguments for why said statements is true.
Also, you seem to think Im shitting in D2, which definitely makes me think you read what you want to read (you see something you dont agree with and then you assume that Im challenging your opinion on D2, which Im not). I didnt even comment on your opinion on D2. I didnt comment D2 at all but mentioning one example from it. I commented on customization and the design of it overall.
But onto your post.
What you call replay value, I call time sink. Everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion, but I hardly belieave it was the lvl 1 to lvl ~80 experience you replayed the content for. You replayed it because you had to. Had there been a choice to either respec to another spec and stay at same level, I dare say you'd use that choice over levelling from scrach for "replay value". The fact that Blizz eventually added respeccability also indicates they admitted it being a drawback not being included in the first place.
Then you continue to complain about the D3 system, sort of indicating that I preferred it. Actually, I do, but nothing in my first post mentioned D3 at all, so Im not sure why you drag D3 into it.
And my paragraph about "illuison of choice" had, once again, nothing to do with D2. Again: I was talking general design. The best example of illusion of choice I can come to think of is WoW glyphs (which you hopefully know of since you seemed to know of worlk talents). I mean today if I log on my mage I have something like ~10 prime glyphs I can choose from, affecting something along the lines of: fireball, pyroblast, living bomb, arcane blast, arcane missiles, mage armor, frost bolt, ice lance, deep freeze. Now guess which three ones you use for the specs fire, arcane and frost respectively. (Note: I know theres a few more glyphs, but this is actually scarily close to how prime glyphs are). Now THATS an illusion of choice.
The one thing you do argue though is that "The best part of diablo 2 is that you could have tons of fun and be viable with suboptimal builds because it isn't a competitive game. ". Credit where credit is due, this does actually relate to my post, so I'll answer to that. And my answer is that the reason you have fun with suboptimal specs (viability is a very subjective word so not gonna touch that. Something being viable or not depends entirely on what you're trying to accomplish with it) was because it offered other things. One such thing being change.
Change is something that humans very much enjoy, since repeating the same thing over and over again often gets boring. Thus, change can cause new interest to occur even though you're not as effective as before the change.
Another reason why you might enjoy suboptimal specs is because you dont know better. I know I had tons of fun with my rainbow Sorc spec in D2 first time I played. Killing every monster took a lot of work, and I liked it. However, as I learned to play and got better, theres very little to go back to. I dare you to make a new D2 char, spec anything between 2 and 7 points into all skills, play it and consider it fun. Trust me, you wont. And the reason you wont is because you know better. Introduce a friend to play on the same char (who never played D2 before) and its entirely possible hes gonna have a blast. Because he DOES NOT know better.
Another reason why you might enjoy it is because of challenge. After having completed the game with a cookie cutter spec, many people enjoy putting restrictions on themselves to increase challenge. If you've done Hell with your Hammerdin, maybe you enjoy starting a new Paladin and using an inferior build because of that.
In summry: The reason you enjoy playing suboptimal specs almost surely because of other reason than it actually being suboptimal, such as change or not knowing better. Im not gonna use the word "entirely" but rather "almost surely", since "enjoying" is also very sujective and everyone may have a unique reason for enjoying something. But what I say does go for a majority of people, and thus thats what you target your design towards. You dont make games to amuse those few players out there who enjoy doing weird stuff, you make games which appeals the masses. And the masses dont enjoy running around with suboptimal specs.
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For more of a D2 vs D3 debate, which you seem to want, you might enjoy this: http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2012/5/3/diablo-3s-ability-system.html
I largely agree with it. But once again my post was about customization design in general, not about D2 or D3.
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There's huge ability for customization in D3 and you actually use more abilities then you ever did in D2 on a single character. I actually use all six of my abilities on my DH. Whereas on any cookie cutter D2 class you use like 2-3 tops, not counting basic buffs like frost armor.
Not to mention the decisions going in to what you actually get. I want to have 7 abilitie sit seems but i can only get 6, so one has to go. It's a crefully weighted decision.
And to the Op: You've played five hours aka youre still in normal and youre bitching about not dying? Its all very drop depend aswell, you have bad drops you take tons more dmg and things take alot longer to kill. You get good drops you two shot everything.
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I'm not surprised that some people aren't feeling D3... Blizzard's quality has gone down the drain guys (look at sc2). I kind of knew this was coming. The D3 hype was from the community that supported D1 and D2 because they were really fun. These supporters expected D3 to be amazing just like how BW supporters expected SC2 to be amazing... R.I.P Blizzard, you were a great company that I loved.
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On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp?
I don't doubt that the game is fun, I do intend to play it at some point (when the price comes down). But to me it's just missing the things that really made D2 exceptional. It's missing the things that made D2 stand out amist the deluge of very very similar RPGs that were all coming out at the same time. So, it's only natural that devoted RPG fans are pretty dissapointed in the game.
I felt the same way when they turned the Fallout series (F2 is arguably the best turn based RPG ever made) into a Deus Ex style FPS. The final product was good, but it wasn't Fallout anymore, it was something else.
On May 16 2012 20:07 Odal wrote:What. inventing and experimenting with builds was basically the main reason D2 has so much replay value. And customization is fucking huge in multiplayer RPGs.
Yes.
Don't get me wrong, I like action RPGs too. Dungeon Siege 2 had just about the single best action-RPG gameplay system, it was loads of fun. But when your stats are getting auto assigned and your only real character build options are choosing from a linear set of skills; it's not really an RPG anymore. It's something closer to a third person action game like Prince of Persia or Max Payne. There's nothing inherently wrong with that type of a game; as I said DS2 was loads of fun.
But it's different with D3: they took one of the most popular RPGs of all time and turned it into a third person action game. Real RPGs can be so much fun; getting invested in a character, building them up, tweaking states, grinding out levels, trolling for loot, and the payoff when you get that sweet new item or ability that let's you smash your foes into oblivion. But "kids these days" don't appreciate that, and as such true RPGs are slowly dying out in favor of third person action games that are mislabeled as RPGs. The D3 redesign is just one more nail into that coffine, and it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that real RPG fans are dissapointed and feel a bit betrayed by Blizzard.
On May 16 2012 23:09 MetalMarine wrote:
I'm not surprised that some people aren't feeling D3... Blizzard's quality has gone down the drain guys (look at sc2). I kind of knew this was coming. The D3 hype was from the community that supported D1 and D2 because they were really fun. These supporters expected D3 to be amazing just like how BW supporters expected SC2 to be amazing... R.I.P Blizzard, you were a great company that I loved.
It's not so much that the game is bad, it's that they took out away was made D2 so good. WoW killed the traditional RPG, millions of people played WoW and so now every game company is going to try to mirror WoW. I can't blame them, it's the dumbed down nature of WoW that made it so popular. Most people don't want to build a character, spend time tweaking stats, or having quests with 10 different ways to solve them (think FO2) that actually require you to use your brain. They want to fly around on a fucking wyvern or gryffon or whatever.
That's fine I suppose. But obviously real RPG fans aren't going to be terribly happy about it.
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On May 16 2012 23:36 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp? I don't doubt that the game is fun, I do intend to play it at some point (when the price comes down). But to me it's just missing the things that really made D2 exceptional. It's missing the things that made D2 stand out amist the deluge of very very similar RPGs that were all coming out at the same time. So, it's only natural that devoted RPG fans are pretty dissapointed in the game. I felt the same way when they turned the Fallout series (F2 is arguably the best turn based RPG ever made) into a Deus Ex style FPS. The final product was good, but it wasn't Fallout anymore, it was something else. Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 20:07 Odal wrote:On May 16 2012 19:53 Kreb wrote:
Customization is in many cases a bad thing. What. inventing and experimenting with builds was basically the main reason D2 has so much replay value. And customization is fucking huge in multiplayer RPGs. Yes. Don't get me wrong, I like action RPGs too. Dungeon Siege 2 had just about the single best action-RPG gameplay system, it was loads of fun. But when your stats are getting auto assigned and your only real character build options are choosing from a linear set of skills; it's not really an RPG anymore. It's something closer to a third person action game like Prince of Persia or Max Payne. There's nothing inherently wrong with that type of a game; as I said DS2 was loads of fun. But it's different with D3: they took one of the most popular RPGs of all time and turned it into a third person action game. Real RPGs can be so much fun; getting invested in a character, building them up, tweaking states, grinding out levels, trolling for loot, and the payoff when you get that sweet new item or ability that let's you smash your foes into oblivion. But "kids these days" don't appreciate that, and as such true RPGs are slowly dying out in favor of third person action games that are mislabeled as RPGs. The D3 redesign is just one more nail into that coffine, and it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that real RPG fans are dissapointed and feel a bit betrayed by Blizzard. Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:09 MetalMarine wrote:
I'm not surprised that some people aren't feeling D3... Blizzard's quality has gone down the drain guys (look at sc2). I kind of knew this was coming. The D3 hype was from the community that supported D1 and D2 because they were really fun. These supporters expected D3 to be amazing just like how BW supporters expected SC2 to be amazing... R.I.P Blizzard, you were a great company that I loved. It's not so much that the game is bad, it's that they took out away was made D2 so good. WoW killed the traditional RPG, millions of people played WoW and so now every game company is going to try to mirror WoW. I can't blame them, it's the dumbed down nature of WoW that made it so popular. Most people don't want to build a character, spend time tweaking stats, or having quests with 10 different ways to solve them (think FO2) that actually require you to use your brain. They want to fly around on a fucking wyvern or gryffon or whatever. That's fine I suppose. But obviously real RPG fans aren't going to be terribly happy about it.
I can't help but laugh at your last paragraph about companies mirroring WoW to dumb down people and instead of using their brains they want to fly around on a fucking wyvern or gryffon. It is so true. Blizzard is dumbing down everything, taking all the skills and fun out. Same with SC2. There is such a huge skills difference between BW and SC2, which made BW so entertaining not to just play and participate in the game but to observe. I haven't played D3 yet but I guess since they took out customization of stats in a game, I can see that the game won't last long. All they are gonna do is update patches and items and other trash, which are not the main reasons why playing real RPG is fun.
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On May 17 2012 01:37 JiSu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:36 TheToast wrote:On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp? I don't doubt that the game is fun, I do intend to play it at some point (when the price comes down). But to me it's just missing the things that really made D2 exceptional. It's missing the things that made D2 stand out amist the deluge of very very similar RPGs that were all coming out at the same time. So, it's only natural that devoted RPG fans are pretty dissapointed in the game. I felt the same way when they turned the Fallout series (F2 is arguably the best turn based RPG ever made) into a Deus Ex style FPS. The final product was good, but it wasn't Fallout anymore, it was something else. On May 16 2012 20:07 Odal wrote:On May 16 2012 19:53 Kreb wrote:
Customization is in many cases a bad thing. What. inventing and experimenting with builds was basically the main reason D2 has so much replay value. And customization is fucking huge in multiplayer RPGs. Yes. Don't get me wrong, I like action RPGs too. Dungeon Siege 2 had just about the single best action-RPG gameplay system, it was loads of fun. But when your stats are getting auto assigned and your only real character build options are choosing from a linear set of skills; it's not really an RPG anymore. It's something closer to a third person action game like Prince of Persia or Max Payne. There's nothing inherently wrong with that type of a game; as I said DS2 was loads of fun. But it's different with D3: they took one of the most popular RPGs of all time and turned it into a third person action game. Real RPGs can be so much fun; getting invested in a character, building them up, tweaking states, grinding out levels, trolling for loot, and the payoff when you get that sweet new item or ability that let's you smash your foes into oblivion. But "kids these days" don't appreciate that, and as such true RPGs are slowly dying out in favor of third person action games that are mislabeled as RPGs. The D3 redesign is just one more nail into that coffine, and it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that real RPG fans are dissapointed and feel a bit betrayed by Blizzard. On May 16 2012 23:09 MetalMarine wrote:
I'm not surprised that some people aren't feeling D3... Blizzard's quality has gone down the drain guys (look at sc2). I kind of knew this was coming. The D3 hype was from the community that supported D1 and D2 because they were really fun. These supporters expected D3 to be amazing just like how BW supporters expected SC2 to be amazing... R.I.P Blizzard, you were a great company that I loved. It's not so much that the game is bad, it's that they took out away was made D2 so good. WoW killed the traditional RPG, millions of people played WoW and so now every game company is going to try to mirror WoW. I can't blame them, it's the dumbed down nature of WoW that made it so popular. Most people don't want to build a character, spend time tweaking stats, or having quests with 10 different ways to solve them (think FO2) that actually require you to use your brain. They want to fly around on a fucking wyvern or gryffon or whatever. That's fine I suppose. But obviously real RPG fans aren't going to be terribly happy about it. I can't help but laugh at your last paragraph about companies mirroring WoW to dumb down people and instead of using their brains they want to fly around on a fucking wyvern or gryffon. It is so true. Blizzard is dumbing down everything, taking all the skills and fun out. Same with SC2. There is such a huge skills difference between BW and SC2, which made BW so entertaining not to just play and participate in the game but to observe. I haven't played D3 yet but I guess since they took out customization of stats in a game, I can see that the game won't last long. All they are gonna do is update patches and items and other trash, which are not the main reasons why playing real RPG is fun.
I don't necessarily diagree, but there is a difference. SC2 at least kept the same spirit as BW, unit design and controls may be different but it's kept most of the same aspects. Honestly it would have been wierd if SC2 didn't have the option to do things like bind multiple buildings to a single hotkey, allow binding more than 12 units to a single hotkey: those things are pretty standard in modern RTS games. Remember that when BW came out, it did a lot of things with the UI that were big changes from it's predecessors. For example grouping 12 units instead of 8, hotkeying camera locations, and I'm not sure entirely but I don't think you could hotkey buildings in WC2? Intentionally leaving out features that are now standard in RTS UIs just to make the game harder would probably have earned them some terrible reviews and I think you wouldn't have nearly the size of the player base that you have now.
But as I say, I don't think that allowing players to queue up unit movement waypoints, for example, is drastically changing what Starcraft is. If they had done something like put WC3 style hero units in the game, that would be more analogous. The D3 gameplay mechanics fundamentally changed the type of game it is, how it plays, replayability, etc.
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On May 16 2012 00:45 m3rciless wrote:
dull grey scenery? What game are you playing?
It isn't my little pony, but all ultra settings the game has an awesomely vibrant feel to it.
yeah. is WoW gray? i kinda dont understand this..
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On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp?
I'm still on edge about going through and buying it even if the truth of how the game really is without any bias emerges from some or several "reliable" reviews. I want to take into consideration of how long I'll actually keep playing the game as well I really don't want to toss out $60 for a pure click and 2 - 3 hotkeys of hack and slash single/multi-player RPG. Whereas with SC2, my $60 at launch was so worth it that I'd be an idiot not to buy it.
Perhaps the game just isn't for me... I mean the beta is a pretty good representation of how the gameplay is isn't it? Because if it is, no amount of cool skills and graphics would be able to convince me to play it. In the end it's still an RPG, with an ending, I'm looking for a long lasting game to keep me entertained for years to come with fresh new content arriving at my doorstep every once in a while. I hate to admit it but WoW was that game for me, I hated how irresponsible I was with my time management skills but the memories I made were irreplaceable.
I'm in the neutral here guys, I'm looking at both sides of the fence and trying to figure out who has the better argument.
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On May 16 2012 13:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 02:49 TheToast wrote:On May 16 2012 00:48 Skilledblob wrote:
welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me. I'll say it again, what made Diablo 2 awesome was the ability to build a unique character; tweaking states, making tough decisions about skill points; knowing that you're character was one of a hundred different permutations of just that one class. Gave the game a ton of replay-ability, you could play through as a sorceress with 4 different elemental focuses, or try to be a bad ass and mix them together. But Blizzard WoW-ized D3. The skill system is now linear and boring, you can't spend hours tweaking stats, or figuring out how best to build your character so you can use that one badass weapon. D2 was never known for its visuals, gameplay mechanics weren't anything revolutionary, and the storyline could at times feel a bit flat. Take away the awesome character system, and I'm not sure what's left. I'll probably get the game when it comes down in price a ways, but there's no way in hell (no pun) I'm going to spend $60 for demon-y version of WoW. If I felt the need to play a WoW-like game, I'd just go play WoW. It sucks that Blizzard destroyed one of the best RPGs ever, but what's worse is the legions of WoW players talking about how awesome this game is; not having played D2 and having no idea how awesome this game should have been. -edit: Odal thanks, almost forgot about the boatloat of items in D2; magic items, unique items, rare items, sets, and the ability to literally craft your own items with the horodric cube. -edit2: On May 16 2012 00:58 Pure-SC2 wrote:
I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game.
Considering how static the skill system is, your character is pretty much similar to every other character of the same class and level. At max level, they will be exactly the same character. Exactly. All of the customization of D2 is gone, the ability to create different character builds, with different skill sets, with different armor--all of it is gone. This is so wrong. Diablo 3 is 10x more unique than diablo 2 was. Spell customization is so free and you can have so many different types of skills it's insane as well as the room to experiment. I don't know how you can say what you said when there's like 5 abilities per slot and 5 runes per ability. How did diablo 2 have that type of customization? You say hours building your character but in reality it's just doing cookie cutter builds. At least wait until you even get to hell to say you're not gonna be optimizing your character. Are you even at nightmare yet? Normal was a joke, but once you get to the end of act 1 nightmare you'll know what I mean when you really need to start thinking about what you're gonna use and how. Yeah, diablo 2 made you recreate a character from scratch and grind your way back up to try new builds. In diablo 3 you can freely switch between specs *SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE ITEMS TO DO SO*. What's the problem here? And uhh, diablo 3 has magic items, unique items, rare, items, sets as well. Who knows what else there is in hell or inferno? The horadric cube for crafting your own items was meant for probably the .001% of the top end of players who could afford to do it. I seriously love the people compaining about how the game is easy on normal. NO FUCKING SHIT. Diablo 2 was a joke on normal as well, and once you get to hell and inferno difficulties please tell me it's too easy. I'm at the end of act 1 on nightmare and it is NOTICEABLY harder.
It was actually very possible to die to Duriel in Act II while playing on Normal difficulty, assuming you didn't have help and were using found gear (not muled).
I used regular gear and breezed my way through normal. I was excited about the skill customization, I thought it would be unique and free-form. It's really not, it's exceptionally flat and (at least for the Witch-Doctor) a certain few skills are clearly better than others.
As for actual builds, there aren't any, not really. I play the Witch-doctor, and I use whatever skill I want that fits the occasion. There's no sense of uniqueness to the character and you get bored using the same 3 skills over and over again.
As for the general storyline, it's just bad. They took the grim storylines of Diablo I & II and turned it into a "we all fight together" motif with a little bit of "those dumb authority figures".
Diablo II thrived on its feel; it was dark, creepy, the backstory was vague, the references to Diablo I were subtle (Blood Raven -> Rogue, the Summoner -> Mage, Wanderer -> Warrior), and there never really was alot of hope, and the message wasn't "humanity has something special" so much as "humanity has to clean up its own shit".
I understand why this new blizzard decided to release a game to cater to the WoW crowd and give them another generic title to waste time in, but I really don't think it's deserving of the Diablo name.
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On May 17 2012 04:05 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 13:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 16 2012 02:49 TheToast wrote:On May 16 2012 00:48 Skilledblob wrote:
welcome to my betaweekend experience. The game is solid but it didnt really grab me. I'll say it again, what made Diablo 2 awesome was the ability to build a unique character; tweaking states, making tough decisions about skill points; knowing that you're character was one of a hundred different permutations of just that one class. Gave the game a ton of replay-ability, you could play through as a sorceress with 4 different elemental focuses, or try to be a bad ass and mix them together. But Blizzard WoW-ized D3. The skill system is now linear and boring, you can't spend hours tweaking stats, or figuring out how best to build your character so you can use that one badass weapon. D2 was never known for its visuals, gameplay mechanics weren't anything revolutionary, and the storyline could at times feel a bit flat. Take away the awesome character system, and I'm not sure what's left. I'll probably get the game when it comes down in price a ways, but there's no way in hell (no pun) I'm going to spend $60 for demon-y version of WoW. If I felt the need to play a WoW-like game, I'd just go play WoW. It sucks that Blizzard destroyed one of the best RPGs ever, but what's worse is the legions of WoW players talking about how awesome this game is; not having played D2 and having no idea how awesome this game should have been. -edit: Odal thanks, almost forgot about the boatloat of items in D2; magic items, unique items, rare items, sets, and the ability to literally craft your own items with the horodric cube. -edit2: On May 16 2012 00:58 Pure-SC2 wrote:
I find my character quite strong for his level, but I also know that normal difficulty in Act 1 is meant to be the tutorial for the game.
Considering how static the skill system is, your character is pretty much similar to every other character of the same class and level. At max level, they will be exactly the same character. Exactly. All of the customization of D2 is gone, the ability to create different character builds, with different skill sets, with different armor--all of it is gone. This is so wrong. Diablo 3 is 10x more unique than diablo 2 was. Spell customization is so free and you can have so many different types of skills it's insane as well as the room to experiment. I don't know how you can say what you said when there's like 5 abilities per slot and 5 runes per ability. How did diablo 2 have that type of customization? You say hours building your character but in reality it's just doing cookie cutter builds. At least wait until you even get to hell to say you're not gonna be optimizing your character. Are you even at nightmare yet? Normal was a joke, but once you get to the end of act 1 nightmare you'll know what I mean when you really need to start thinking about what you're gonna use and how. Yeah, diablo 2 made you recreate a character from scratch and grind your way back up to try new builds. In diablo 3 you can freely switch between specs *SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE ITEMS TO DO SO*. What's the problem here? And uhh, diablo 3 has magic items, unique items, rare, items, sets as well. Who knows what else there is in hell or inferno? The horadric cube for crafting your own items was meant for probably the .001% of the top end of players who could afford to do it. I seriously love the people compaining about how the game is easy on normal. NO FUCKING SHIT. Diablo 2 was a joke on normal as well, and once you get to hell and inferno difficulties please tell me it's too easy. I'm at the end of act 1 on nightmare and it is NOTICEABLY harder. It was actually very possible to die to Duriel in Act II while playing on Normal difficulty, assuming you didn't have help and were using found gear (not muled). I used regular gear and breezed my way through normal. I was excited about the skill customization, I thought it would be unique and free-form. It's really not, it's exceptionally flat and (at least for the Witch-Doctor) a certain few skills are clearly better than others. As for actual builds, there aren't any, not really. I play the Witch-doctor, and I use whatever skill I want that fits the occasion. There's no sense of uniqueness to the character and you get bored using the same 3 skills over and over again. As for the general storyline, it's just bad. They took the grim storylines of Diablo I & II and turned it into a "we all fight together" motif with a little bit of "those dumb authority figures". Diablo II thrived on its feel; it was dark, creepy, the backstory was vague, the references to Diablo I were subtle (Blood Raven -> Rogue, the Summoner -> Mage, Wanderer -> Warrior), and there never really was alot of hope, and the message wasn't "humanity has something special" so much as "humanity has to clean up its own shit". I understand why this new blizzard decided to release a game to cater to the WoW crowd and give them another generic title to waste time in, but I really don't think it's deserving of the Diablo name. diablo 2 only had the "dark" vibe in act1, especially the spooky cave and crypt areas. not surprising as they were first developed. but as development went on, the areas became more and more colourful, and expansion a5 def has a slight proto- WoW vibe going
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On May 17 2012 04:04 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 15:13 ETisME wrote:On May 16 2012 06:28 Snuggles wrote:
I'm glad I waited before committing myself to buying D3. I did tons and tons of searching, reading through posts and people's different opinions. It really does seem like D3 was just all hype. game is still super fun though. but the removal of customisation actually makes the game lacking in depth (that's how I feel anyway) but I think they did it to encourage players to play with skill rather than good stats buildup ownage in pvp? I'm still on edge about going through and buying it even if the truth of how the game really is without any bias emerges from some or several "reliable" reviews. I want to take into consideration of how long I'll actually keep playing the game as well I really don't want to toss out $60 for a pure click and 2 - 3 hotkeys of hack and slash single/multi-player RPG. Whereas with SC2, my $60 at launch was so worth it that I'd be an idiot not to buy it. Perhaps the game just isn't for me... I mean the beta is a pretty good representation of how the gameplay is isn't it? Because if it is, no amount of cool skills and graphics would be able to convince me to play it. In the end it's still an RPG, with an ending, I'm looking for a long lasting game to keep me entertained for years to come with fresh new content arriving at my doorstep every once in a while. I hate to admit it but WoW was that game for me, I hated how irresponsible I was with my time management skills but the memories I made were irreplaceable. I'm in the neutral here guys, I'm looking at both sides of the fence and trying to figure out who has the better argument.
You get like 3 skills in the beta and it's not challenging at all. Up that to a number of combination of 6 skills and 3 passives while you're running around dodging like 30 spells at once and I dare someone to tell me that it's hack and slash. The combat is immensely fun and 50x better than diablo 2s.
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Pretty much played the game for 2 days nonstop now. We are a group of 4, now in nightmare end of act 3 and the game is a lot of fun at least until now. Nightmare seemed really easy at first, but starting with act 2/3 it became a bit more challenging. There are those lazer dudes (arcane enchanted) who will just fry you almost instantly if you are not careful (or being stuck between walls another mob casted -.-), or the suicide bombers who do like 90% of your life if you don't evade them. I can only imagine how hard inferno mode will be, if this is the second difficulty setting (not saying it is super hard now, but it certainly is not autopilot).
I really would only recommend the game if you have people to play it with, because from the limited time I've played it alone, it was pretty easy compared to 4 players and boring because you don't have people to laugh with when someone dies in laz0rs or gets blown up by exploding plants while looting.
btw: I love the people who complain about the "shallow" skill system. In D2 you made a character, basically chose 1-2 skills to concentrate on (which you maxed) and then picked the rest for synergies. I don't understand how that's more interesting from a combat points of view, but I find it kinda sad that after having a character at max level, you have not reason to level the same class again for a different build as you can just switch at will. In D3 you can develop your own playstyle, while in D2 you just picked a certain build like hammerdin, javazon etc. which looked and played just like everyone elses.
Either way, D3 is not a game you will play over and over again for months (except maybe if pvp takes off - you never know), like SC2 or an MMO, but I could see it as a game that you play through together with some friends from time to time over a few weekends after the initial hype and addiction has worn off.
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On May 17 2012 11:59 MaGariShun wrote:
Pretty much played the game for 2 days nonstop now. We are a group of 4, now in nightmare end of act 3 and the game is a lot of fun at least until now. Nightmare seemed really easy at first, but starting with act 2/3 it became a bit more challenging. There are those lazer dudes (arcane enchanted) who will just fry you almost instantly if you are not careful (or being stuck between walls another mob casted -.-), or the suicide bombers who do like 90% of your life if you don't evade them. I can only imagine how hard inferno mode will be, if this is the second difficulty setting (not saying it is super hard now, but it certainly is not autopilot).
I really would only recommend the game if you have people to play it with, because from the limited time I've played it alone, it was pretty easy compared to 4 players and boring because you don't have people to laugh with when someone dies in laz0rs or gets blown up by exploding plants while looting.
btw: I love the people who complain about the "shallow" skill system. In D2 you made a character, basically chose 1-2 skills to concentrate on (which you maxed) and then picked the rest for synergies. I don't understand how that's more interesting from a combat points of view, but I find it kinda sad that after having a character at max level, you have not reason to level the same class again for a different build as you can just switch at will. In D3 you can develop your own playstyle, while in D2 you just picked a certain build like hammerdin, javazon etc. which looked and played just like everyone elses.
Either way, D3 is not a game you will play over and over again for months (except maybe if pvp takes off - you never know), like SC2 or an MMO, but I could see it as a game that you play through together with some friends from time to time over a few weekends after the initial hype and addiction has worn off.
This is disappointing. No 10 year run for D3?
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On May 18 2012 02:48 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:59 MaGariShun wrote:
Pretty much played the game for 2 days nonstop now. We are a group of 4, now in nightmare end of act 3 and the game is a lot of fun at least until now. Nightmare seemed really easy at first, but starting with act 2/3 it became a bit more challenging. There are those lazer dudes (arcane enchanted) who will just fry you almost instantly if you are not careful (or being stuck between walls another mob casted -.-), or the suicide bombers who do like 90% of your life if you don't evade them. I can only imagine how hard inferno mode will be, if this is the second difficulty setting (not saying it is super hard now, but it certainly is not autopilot).
I really would only recommend the game if you have people to play it with, because from the limited time I've played it alone, it was pretty easy compared to 4 players and boring because you don't have people to laugh with when someone dies in laz0rs or gets blown up by exploding plants while looting.
btw: I love the people who complain about the "shallow" skill system. In D2 you made a character, basically chose 1-2 skills to concentrate on (which you maxed) and then picked the rest for synergies. I don't understand how that's more interesting from a combat points of view, but I find it kinda sad that after having a character at max level, you have not reason to level the same class again for a different build as you can just switch at will. In D3 you can develop your own playstyle, while in D2 you just picked a certain build like hammerdin, javazon etc. which looked and played just like everyone elses.
Either way, D3 is not a game you will play over and over again for months (except maybe if pvp takes off - you never know), like SC2 or an MMO, but I could see it as a game that you play through together with some friends from time to time over a few weekends after the initial hype and addiction has worn off. This is disappointing. No 10 year run for D3?
He is basically describing Diablo 2 as well. Very few people played it exclusively for years, like you do in a game like SC2 or WoW. Very often people would level a character, take a break, wait for a ladder reset, etc. It's hard to say anything so soon, but it doesn't mean you wont still have fun in those weekends you decide to go back to D3 five or ten years from now.
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