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On May 04 2012 20:00 micronesia wrote:
"fuck you" ?
"lose faith in the human race"?
"like angry savages"?
"you have my sympathy and pity"?
"sensitive kids"?
"you did something really dumb"?
You can disagree with the OP on the issues brought up in this thread without overreacting and/or coming across like a moron, you know.
"fuck you" is my initial reaction to someone actually being proud of deterring a major sponsor from SC2. Sorry?
On May 04 2012 19:58 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. ...*random swear, indicating I'm smart and know what's up* if people are upset that destiny used those words...okay. Try and get him to change it, and write to the person with his paycheck. Those people then take a reasonable action, given that one of their employees or person that they are funding is swearing, yet simultaneously being presented as a public case. I have about 1.5 times your post count. Post count doesn't matter. people like you...make me feel sad inside.
I respect the OP and others opinion that certain words should not be said by community figures. There were multiple courses of action people could have taken rather than mailing one of the largest esport-sponsors with a smug smile on your face thinking you're doing something important, when in reality you are just deterring future sponsorships/money/tournaments etc.
When people try to justify / be proud of deterring major sponsors from my favorite game I get legimately angry. Can you all stop being so self centered and realize some of this is not your business and if you don't like his stream/team don't watch him? *poof* now he doesn't exist to you! you never have to deal with him again!
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I think the OP is pretty aware of the results of mailing razor, and pleased with how things turned out. Assuming he doesn't really care about the e-sports scene, he's caused some serious repercussions (or helped to cause them) in a direction that he likes. Granted, Destiny is still gonna keep swearing and using bad words, but now he'll have a smaller income, and Razer and Quantic (and probably other groups) will be more careful about Destiny and any other players with potential baggage.
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
That being said, he can speak for himself. I don't think his position is inherently unreasonable-- I just think he's wrong.
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On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words?
It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that.
If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
My chief concern with his actions are not whether or not he was indeed combating racism, or whether or not he was hurting esports, but rather, whether he had a moral right to do what he did the way he did it. I don't believe that complaining to a group that sponsored a group that employed Destiny was something that he could morally do given that any interaction with Destiny is easily avoided-- Destiny is not a major pro-gamer and his stream is very easy to not watch.
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On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
Are you defending gook as a racial slur? Because I'm asian and it means absolutely nothing to me.
I appreciate the gesture, but I really don't need people to get offended on my behalf. :/
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On May 04 2012 20:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:03 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh. He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree. I don't care either, like a ton of other people. Razer probably don't care either. A minority of sensitve people care, like you, and they ruin it for everyone else since Razer DOES care when people mail them about it, making it into a big deal. Do you think Razer are blind? They knew what they went into when sponsoring Quantic who has a player like Destiny on their team. Result of going "Destiny, I really dislike your use of words": * You get to let people know you don't like this kind of word usage. * If enough people complain, destiny stops doing it (he makes money from his fans), or quantic does something about it. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream now and again. Result of mailing razor: * Forcing razor to take a strong stance, pulling money away from e-sports and hurting the scene. Less good content for everyone. * You get to write a blog post about how civilized you are. Yay. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream, he just has a harder time to compete competitively, which is bad because he's a good player who is fun to watch.
Razer could just ignore my email if they are truly agnostic. I am only one person. Clearly they either (a) felt strongly about it or (b) received a lot of mail about it. How much is enough for (b), I could not say. I don't know who else mailed, or what they said. There are too many unknowns for your assumption. But I doubt Razer wants to be associated in any way with racial slurs in their sponsorships. Sponsorships are about forming positive emotional bonds with your brand.
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On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_word
Not surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions..
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On May 04 2012 20:26 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. Are you defending gook as a racial slur? Because I'm asian and it means absolutely nothing to me. I appreciate the gesture, but I really don't need people to get offended on my behalf. :/
I didn't know I was defending anything. I would say I was defining. Gook is a racial slur. I am glad it doesn't offend you.
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On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions..
I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication.
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On May 04 2012 20:27 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:09 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh. He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree. I don't care either, like a ton of other people. Razer probably don't care either. A minority of sensitve people care, like you, and they ruin it for everyone else since Razer DOES care when people mail them about it, making it into a big deal. Do you think Razer are blind? They knew what they went into when sponsoring Quantic who has a player like Destiny on their team. Result of going "Destiny, I really dislike your use of words": * You get to let people know you don't like this kind of word usage. * If enough people complain, destiny stops doing it (he makes money from his fans), or quantic does something about it. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream now and again. Result of mailing razor: * Forcing razor to take a strong stance, pulling money away from e-sports and hurting the scene. Less good content for everyone. * You get to write a blog post about how civilized you are. Yay. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream, he just has a harder time to compete competitively, which is bad because he's a good player who is fun to watch. Razer could just ignore my email if they are truly agnostic. I am only one person. Clearly they either (a) felt strongly about it or (b) received a lot of mail about it. How much is enough for (b), I could not say. I don't know who else mailed, or what they said. There are too many unknowns for your assumption. But I doubt Razer wants to be associated in any way with racial slurs in their sponsorships. Sponsorships are about forming positive emotional bonds with your brand.
I didn't say your single mail made Razer take this stance. But you contributed to it, which is just as bad. You're also completely incorrect about what Razer and other sponsors want. What they want is product placement, they want attention. Sure, they want positive attention, which is why they reacted to PC mails, but the reason they are sponsoring a team which hires a player like Destiny is because Destiny is really popular, regardless of how BM he can be. Putting the razer brand on his stream is a good idea because he has a ton of fans looking at that stream. As long as no one makes a big deal out of it, Razer would rather have all the people watching Destiny buy their products than having Destiny stop using gook/nigger etc as curse words (and yes, they are curse words. He isn't using them towards people of specific races, just like Orb used "dumb nigger" towards white guy and lost his job for it).
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On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication.
That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between:
A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country".
B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook".
Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications.
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Yes, absolutely they want the popularity, and of course they want the ROI. But what I think you also see is that they don't want the racial swearing (I will update my terminology). Now I suppose you could say that they knew and didn't care until they got email about it. Or you could say they didn't ask where he got his fans from, and when they saw it they were not pleased. I don't know. But you assume it is the one and not the other. I like to think it is the other, but I am ok either way.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true.
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On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true.
You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear.
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On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications.
I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one.
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This is what happens when a community inflates due to an overhyped game that bases its fame on a successful predecessor and there are no:
1. Join requirements.
2. Intelligence requirements.
3. Skill requirements.
4. Contribution requirements.
And only basic behavior requirements. This is the definition of the mass that worships "esports," not necessarily the mass that plays the game. The vocal minority, hopefully. In short, when you grab a large chunk of a population with a marketing scheme, you're bound to catch a few hundred thousand morons en route. And those morons have something to say, god damn it!
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On May 04 2012 20:44 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one.
I agree with you there, that's the reaso why I personally don't use swear words derived from racial slurs... I personally don't see the problem with doing so, but there's a billion curse words to use, so why use the most controversial ones. If I can pick between "asshole" and "nigger", I would have no reason to pick "nigger", other than the fact I want the effect gotten from the racial history of the word.
So I don't use those words, and I prefer when people do not use them. That doesn't mean I have to "combat racism" or ruin a competitive climate for it. I can just state my opinion, and hope people care and respect it... just like in any other situation.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it.
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On May 04 2012 19:27 willll wrote:
Did I damage esports? I did what I thought was right.
That's your right.
And I think you were a moron for doing so, and that you were wrong, and that it was not right.
And that's just my opinion.
Maybe that damages esports?
No, because it's not about eSports.
It's about punishing the appropriate person.
The person who did it? Destiny.
Do you think he did something wrong? Yes.
Then seek to punish him.
How?
- Getting him kicked off the team.
- Getting him kicked from TL to advertise his stream.
- Getting him kicked from Facebook / Twitter / his streaming service for promoting his stream.
But what did you do?
- Seek to punish his team.
- Seek to punish the whole sport.
Without giving them time to give an appropriate reaction.
So no, it's not 'about esports' - it's about doing something moronic, because you are dumb, and aren't trying to punish the right party, but instead overreact and do something stupid, and end up punishing the wrong people / organizations.
Your reaction makes sense if, and only if, his team release a statement saying they have looked into it, and is fine with it - OR - a long time (like, you know, 2 days at least) passes without getting any reaction from them.
Did what you do make sense? No.
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EPT
