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On May 04 2012 20:53 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it.
Instead of wiriting a mail to a sponsor (which again, punishes the wrong people), why not spend that energy in voting and creating discussion? The US is a democratic country for all I know, if you feel strongly about racism, make a difference where it matters... which is not the way destiny used the word "gook" on his stream.
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I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
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On May 04 2012 20:48 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:44 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one. I agree with you there, that's the reaso why I personally don't use swear words derived from racial slurs... I personally don't see the problem with doing so, but there's a billion curse words to use, so why use the most controversial ones. If I can pick between "asshole" and "nigger", I would have no reason to pick "nigger", other than the fact I want the effect gotten from the racial history of the word.
So I don't use those words, and I prefer when people do not use them. That doesn't mean I have to "combat racism" or ruin a competitive climate for it. I can just state my opinion, and hope people care and respect it... just like in any other situation.
I am glad to see we could agree on something =) I doubt little old me (or even however many hundreds of little old me's) will ruin the competitive climate. I hope if you become sponsored (or if you are!) you will remember what you said. As for the rest, well, thank you for the early morning conversation.
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On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear.
I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that.
What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable.
Edit: to elaborate on what changed my opinion in Victoria, the city is fairly isolated, and many people there have roots in the city going back generations. There are also a lot of retirees, and young people who have moved into the city from the backwoods. Finally, there is a large immigrant population, which doesn't fit in well with the other residents. Most people in the city are not racist, but there are a few bad apples, and, in my opinion, not enough checks on the bad apples.
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On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not).
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On May 04 2012 21:05 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear. I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that. What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable.
Most certainly, but that's not the issue at hand. Point is that using a racist slur as a curse word doesn't make you racist. I find it hard to imagine that even an asian person who would be offended if he was called "gook" would consider it racism is he overheard two white people calling eachother "gooks". He might consider them dumb for using that word, but probably not racist.
That's because context makes a world of difference, especially when it comes to language.
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On May 04 2012 20:58 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:53 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it. Instead of wiriting a mail to a sponsor (which again, punishes the wrong people), why not spend that energy in voting and creating discussion? The US is a democratic country for all I know, if you feel strongly about racism, make a difference where it matters... which is not the way destiny used the word "gook" on his stream.
Destiny left Quantic. Razer managed to cite him by name in their reply, which I like to hope means that any other damage will be minimal. Fallout thus far has been apportioned properly. I vote when it's time (not 'til November). In the meantime I assign my time as best I can. But I like to watch starcraft, so TL is where I often find myself.
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On May 04 2012 21:11 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:05 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear. I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that. What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable. Most certainly, but that's not the issue at hand. Point is that using a racist slur as a curse word doesn't make you racist. I find it hard to imagine that even an asian person who would be offended if he was called "gook" would consider it racism is he overheard two white people calling eachother "gooks". He might consider them dumb for using that word, but probably not racist. That's because context makes a world of difference, especially when it comes to language. I agree that whether or not a racial slur expresses a racial sentiment depends on context. However, I would say that any use of a racial slur contributes to a racist environment. That doesn't mean that using a racial slur is necessarily a great crime, but I think it makes it worth asking people who use racial slurs to stop. And if willll felt strongly enough about it to send an email to a sponsor (which, really, is not that great an action), then I think the action is justified.
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On May 04 2012 20:23 Blazinghand wrote:
My chief concern with his actions are not whether or not he was indeed combating racism, or whether or not he was hurting esports, but rather, whether he had a moral right to do what he did the way he did it. I don't believe that complaining to a group that sponsored a group that employed Destiny was something that he could morally do given that any interaction with Destiny is easily avoided-- Destiny is not a major pro-gamer and his stream is very easy to not watch.
There was an element of circumstance to the whole thing. No denying it. But once I had read the thread (and I read a lot of it, I must admit), I felt the urge to act. I considered writing to Quantic, and I explain why I passed. It was definitely on some level akin to turning someone in to the boss or something. I felt some revulsion at that aspect of it. But then I considered Destiny's writing in the thread, his almost bragging attitude of 'I will use whatever language I feel like because I have my own beliefs about these things'. It was definitely a factor. Anyone with that much attitude feels that they really are secure. And maybe he was? After all, when you are writing, you don't know the result in advance. Maybe he had talked it all out with Razer and they knew this sort of thing would happen and they would consider it 'part of the game', that is, the game of employing Destiny.
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On May 04 2012 21:08 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not).
I'm not sure about that. I think that maybe they'd just put some pressure on Destiny to apologise and change instead. (Something he's clearly not interested in - but that's his problem).
By sponsoring Destiny, who frequently uses racial slurs, they kinda do support racism.
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On May 04 2012 19:47 Pure-SC2 wrote:
Thanks for posting a clear and concise reasoning behind why you sent an email to Razer. This is much more useful to me as a person who wants to understand things better as opposed to the mindless hate and bandwagoning going on in the other threads related to this.
For what it's worth, I think you emailed them with the right intentions, regardless of whether it's damaged "esports". Was it the right thing to do? Who knows.
Realistically, is it a good thing for a professional team with sponsors who have a public obligation to be moral be associated with someone who has and is using racist insults, justified behind a veil of entitlement and ignorance? Of course it isn't.
A guy in the UK was jailed recently for racist comments on twitter. The majority of society no longer accepts racism, and agree with it or not, sponsors have an obligation to reflect morals in the decisions they make.
Is a sponsored player making racist remarks bad for the gaming scene? Yes.
Thank you for the encouraging words-that first comment made me feel like no one would understand what I wrote at all.
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On May 04 2012 21:37 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:08 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not). I'm not sure about that. I think that maybe they'd just put some pressure on Destiny to apologise and change instead. (Something he's clearly not interested in - but that's his problem). By sponsoring Destiny, who frequently uses racial slurs, they kinda do support racism.
Do you sponsor the devil if your sponsored player screams "Hell" if he stubs his toe? It's not like destiny is a racist, it's not like the money Razer sponsors him with goes to some KKK group. All they are supporting is a competitive SC2 player who uses controversial words as curse words, which some people with somwhat lacking intelligence equals with being racist because they don't understand the impact of context in what a person says.
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My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 21:57 ArcticFox wrote:
My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced.
If you're saying I shouldn't have involved myself, then i believe you are with Blazinghands on this one. I liked your story, but you don't need a story to say you don't think I should have involved myself and at most should have contacted Quantic. I think that's a reasonable position. I gave my reasons, but clearly you disagree. I wish I could post more (as you put a lot of writing into your post), but I don't really think there is more to it.
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I think this dead horse needs to be buried, and fast; it's starting to stink.
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On May 04 2012 23:36 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 21:57 ArcticFox wrote:
My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced. If you're saying I shouldn't have involved myself, then i believe you are with Blazinghands on this one. I liked your story, but you don't need a story to say you don't think I should have involved myself and at most should have contacted Quantic. I think that's a reasonable position. I gave my reasons, but clearly you disagree. I wish I could post more (as you put a lot of writing into your post), but I don't really think there is more to it.
Your reason was that you "thought" Quantic wouldn't do anything since they invited Destiny on the team knowing how he is in the first place.
Did you even try contacting Quantic directly? I could get behind that idea at least. Quantic is directly responsible for keeping their employee around. If their employee bothers you personally, it's reasonable. It still seems way out of line to me for someone who isn't even involved, but the logical process is there.
Going directly to the sponsors hurts us all, if you truly enjoy SC2. And the kicker is it doesn't even hurt Destiny that much! Destiny makes enough money to support himself from his streaming, but getting the sponsors to pull their support would be devastating for all the other members of Quantic.
Look, I'm not a fan of Destiny at all. I think he's as obnoxious as hell and full of himself. But going to the sponsors does nothing but hurt the sport as a whole, to give your own ego a boost for feeling like "I did something good!" I stand by my reasoning that it's selfish and short-sighted. You can't just say "it wasn't about esports" and absolve yourself of the potential damage.
What's done is already done, though. The point I'm trying to make is the next time you want to get out your pitchfork over something you weren't directly involved in, at least aim it in the right direction.
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On May 04 2012 19:58 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:49 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. Dude, the whole point of this blog is that he didn't do it to defend the esports or TL community in any way. It's possible to have principles that aren't "esports principles" or "TL principles". LOL it's not about e-sports? in that case, write destiny a letter and kindly tell him how deeply offended you are. but when you call a major sponsor of an E-Sport (razer).. and make a big deal out of something that we could have moved on from, you hurt everybody. whether you like it or not, this is about "e-sports"..
Didn't hurt me. I'm sorry, but who made you the spokesperson for e-sports? And did you even read his post? OP didn't send the letter for the progression of e-sports. He sent it because as an individual, he was deeply offended. And since Destiny blatantly expressed that he does not give a fuck, the OP sent a letter to someone who might. I don't really agree with his actions, but unlike you, I'm willing to accept that people have different tolerance levels and that my way of thinking is not always the right/only way. On the other hand, you act like you're some designated spokesperson for e-sports, making you exempt from defending your arguments because of natural authority. After all, you seem to have this random presumption that everyone shares the same perspective as you or if they don't, they're morons.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
You have 832 posts. I guess that makes you a paragon for esports? Don't start throwing post counts out to determine whether what a person has to say is worthy or not. That's just ignorant thinking.
I for one, if I had a business that sponsored ANY team, would like to know if a member of that team was behaving inappropriately, using language that was offensive, or caused undue stress on the team and or franchise due to that team member's behavior. I want to know this information because my business is connected with that team, and also connected with that player. So when someone thinks of that player they think of the sponsor (whether directly or indirectly).
When Vick was drawn up on charges of dog fighting, weren't there people who called, wrote, protested the Atlanta Falcons because of Vick's actions? Of course there were. And why did these fans do that? Is it because they wanted to hurt football by causing a scene?
If you want to stick you head in the sand, go right ahead. But when you do that you lose the right to complain.
You don't vote?
You don't get to complain about the politicians from your state having done jack shit during their service terms.
Why? Cause you didn't support or reject them. You ignored the world because maybe you feel, "What is one voice in the see of many?"
You don't discipline your children when they misbehave?
You don't get to be outraged when they participate in deviant behavior, engage in criminal activities, etc.
Conversely, there are many that want to see esports continue to grow. There are many who do not (Just see Gheed's blog post) though he is not the only one by far. But if this business is to succeed and grow business have to want to spend money. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people here on TL and redditt to understand.
I wonder if I had a job, where I interacted with thousands of people each day, and while interacting with these people I used racial slurs (that while not directed at my customers, some of those customers were a part of the demographic that my racial slur applied to). Do you think it is acceptable for my employer to continue to keep me employed if some of those customers brought my language to my bosses attention? How many of those customers, that were offended, are going to be return customers or are they going to seriously think about finding another business to fulfill their needs?
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On May 05 2012 00:20 metbull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. You have 832 posts. I guess that makes you a paragon for esports? Don't start throwing post counts out to determine whether what a person has to say is worthy or not. That's just ignorant thinking. I for one, if I had a business that sponsored ANY team, would like to know if a member of that team was behaving inappropriately, using language that was offensive, or caused undue stress on the team and or franchise due to that team member's behavior. I want to know this information because my business is connected with that team, and also connected with that player. So when someone thinks of that player they think of the sponsor (whether directly or indirectly). When Vick was drawn up on charges of dog fighting, weren't there people who called, wrote, protested the Atlanta Falcons because of Vick's actions? Of course there were. And why did these fans do that? Is it because they wanted to hurt football by causing a scene? If you want to stick you head in the sand, go right ahead. But when you do that you lose the right to complain. You don't vote? You don't get to complain about the politicians from your state having done jack shit during their service terms. Why? Cause you didn't support or reject them. You ignored the world because maybe you feel, "What is one voice in the see of many?" You don't discipline your children when they misbehave? You don't get to be outraged when they participate in deviant behavior, engage in criminal activities, etc. Conversely, there are many that want to see esports continue to grow. There are many who do not ( Just see Gheed's blog post) though he is not the only one by far. But if this business is to succeed and grow business have to want to spend money. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people here on TL and redditt to understand. I wonder if I had a job, where I interacted with thousands of people each day, and while interacting with these people I used racial slurs (that while not directed at my customers, some of those customers were a part of the demographic that my racial slur applied to). Do you think it is acceptable for my employer to continue to keep me employed if some of those customers brought my language to my bosses attention? How many of those customers, that were offended, are going to be return customers or are they going to seriously think about finding another business to fulfill their needs?
Your analogies are off. If those things happened, they're analogous to contacting Quantic, which people are within their rights to do. What happened was a ton of E-Mails to Razer. That's more analogous to contacting Roger Goddell to have the Falcons kicked out of the league over the Vick issue, or seeing a kid misbehaving and calling child protective services on the parent. There's a disconnect, a critical step that was skipped, that a lot of people are taking issue with, because it deters other sponsors from wanting to put money into the system.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
...You lose faith in the human race...because a person has principles, and then acts on those principles? Lol, okay.
"Shouldn't even be your business" - people are so ignorant of this soft relativist attitude that pervades modernity and forms the crux of their basic presuppositions. Like it or not, people are not isolated bubbles completely separate from another, things done by one person have affects in a social community relevant to all other participants in said social community.
[Edit]: It's also pretty ironic. There's a fundamental inconsistency when people are claiming that destiny's language won't hurt e-sports, yet letters from fans to sponsors about his language will hurt e-sports. The latter is the implicit concession that language does have consequences. Now, of course someone will try to argue: "but in the first instance, people are just saying that language is bad because people will be put off, whereas the latter is actually directed towards sponsors!" This is absolutely flawed because it assumes that sponsors aren't cognizant of the community or the participants in the first place. Obviously, Kingston Hyper X is going to be aware of IdrA's profile as a player who sometimes gets angry - hence the commercials that demonstrate that knowledge. Whether or not fans let them know, sponsors are going to find out eventually by their exposure to the scene, and it's better to air out the flaws and fix them rather than let them stagnant and rot to the point of eventually eroding the foundation of the entire thing.
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