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Just my take on the current Proleague situation. Maybe, just maybe, it won't be so bad after all
Well, we've all heard the news by now. It's spread all over the TL forums in half a dozen different threads: Proleague is transitioning to Starcraft II. What the exact format will be for the next season remains unknown, the rumors seem to indicate that we may be looking at a hybrid SC2 & BW tournament. But what does this really mean for the community?
Doom & Gloom
The specific ramifications of a hybid style are really a big unknown, no tournament has really tried anything like this on such a large scale, and no one can deny that SC2 and BW have some pretty major gameplay differences. There is a real, well founded fear that what we might get are sub-par matches of both games, as the players try to adapt to regularly switching between the two. Proleage team coaches have already expressed concern about the difficulty the players are having trying to go back and forth between BW and SC2. Can a single player really play two different games at the same time while still regularly delivering matches of the highest quality?
There's already been concern about Kespa getting involved in the SC2 community, but no one is really sure how that will change things, if at all. Will the GSL still look the same a year from now? What's the fallout for the SC2 scene in Korea? There's a real possibility that some of our favorite SC2 teams may be decimated, as the better funded and more prestigious Proleage teams cherry-pick the talent.
There have also been reported concerns from the BW coaches about SC2 being "boring". There seems to be some question as to whether BW pro players will accept the game and enjoy it. We don't actually know whether all our favorite players will continue in Proleague after the switch. Maybe some will choose retirement over being forced to a new game they don't enjoy. And what about skill? Players like MMA and MKP have been perfecting their play for years now, can the BW players even be competitive? ForGG got knocked out of code S pretty convincingly. We may end up watching the same thing happen to the other BW players.
With Proleague's history and the success of the GSL, the community is going to have some very high expectations for the upcoming PL season. There's a possibility that Proleage switch may dissapoint spectacularly, not to mention it could possibly throw a monkey wrench into the fast developing SC2 scene in Korea. Even more worrying is the prospect that the end of the Proleage may mean the end of the BW community: a very sad prospect given that this is the community that launched e-sports in the first place.
Think Positive
So among the possible doom and gloom, what's there to look forward to? To cite a tired cleche, we need to look at the glass as 'half full'. Let's be optimists for a minute and consider the possibility that this switch will be successful. Whatever the final format, there's the potential to accomplish some amazing things.
So put on your optimist hats as I take you though some of the posibilities that have me excited:
1: Bringing together elements of the BW and SC2 communities
This is huge. Mega huge. No, space godzilla huge! For years now there's been a strong and at times hostile divide between these two communities. BW players attacking SC2 fans for wishing their favorite BW heros could play SC2, and SC2 fans attacking attacking BW fans for alleged "elitism". It's sometimes seemed like some kind of TL Cold War.
But now imagine if Proleague goes forward with the rumored 'hybrid format'. For the first time, SC2 fans and BW fans could sit side by side, watching and enjoying the same tournament. Both sides would be exposed to the other side's game: for some maybe for the first time ever. We might just see hardcore SC2 fans cheering for Bisu, and hardcore BW fans cheering for MMA. Maybe, just maybe we might see a seed of mutual admiration develop between the two sides, an understanding of why each fan base finds their game so compelling. That sounds pretty darn awesome to me.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VXcRG.png?1) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xMPrc.png?1) Lurker, meet Baneling. Baneling, say hello to Lurker.
I just know you guys are going to be the best of friends. 
2: Flash playing SC2
It's been confirmed, Flash is training for SC2. A bonjwa, a titan, a legend of e-sports playing SC2. Even if you aren't a SC2 fan, isn't there something intriguing about seeing someone with that level of talent tackling a new game? Think about it, we will get to watch Flash smash, demolish, and blast his way to the top all over again. Will he crush the top SC2 players? Can anyone even touch him? Even if you hate SC2, these matches are going to be amazing, nail-biting, pure amazingness.
When Grubby, the greatest orc ever + Show Spoiler +Moon fans I don't even want to hear it 
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4d/FlashFace.png) Take a look Marine King, this is what your doom looks like
3: Kespa's involvement with SC2
I know, I know. Just stick with me here. I think this has the potential to actually be a positive. Imagine if the SC2 community had a central, well funded organization that could put some pressure on Blizzard. Maybe, just maybe we could get Blizzard to re-evaluate some issues, like implimenting a LAN function for tournaments? I know, it's a long shot. But I think there is some good that can come out of this.
It seems pretty clear that there is a bit of a disconnect between Blizzard and tournament organizers on a number of issues. A third party organization like Kespa may be exactly what we need to act as a mechanism of comunication between the community and Blizz. Maybe Kespa can succeed where others have failed, and explain to Blizzard that Bnet latency and other issues are really hurting the scene. I know what you're thinking. But remember 'half full'.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mACkK.gif?1) Maybe this isn't what total evil looks like afterall?
4: A strategic shakeup
We have to remember that many of these old school BW players are good. Like, really good. They are gods of the RTS world, brilliant minds able to think about RTS games like no one else can. These are the minds that came us with such brilliant strategies, they now bear their namesake: the bisu build, the fantasy build, the Iloveoov build. If you don't think these guys are going to do some amazing things in SC2, you are probably drunk. These guys have an ability to think about this game in ways no one else can, to see oportunities and timings where none previously existed. One can only imagine what they are going to be able to do. That's an exciting prospect.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4f/Corsair.png) With this little guy, Bisu reinvented the way PvZ is played.
Now imagine what he could do with a Warp Gate O.O
5: Influence in HotS and LotV
Okay, this one's a little different. But it's got me thinking. There's been so many complaints from the BW community about the lack of strategic options in SC2, perhaps the somewhat linear nature of the gameplay, that it's 'boring'. But there's one key thing we have to remember: this game is incomplete. SC2 as we know it now is just the first installment. It's analogous to vanilla SC1. We need to remember that the game we all hold in high esteem was in fact the expansion to SC1. We need to remember that there are still two expansions coming in the near future for SC2.
Granted, the glimpses we've had of HotS have not been terribly encouraging; gimick units, lack of focus on major gameplay issues, and removal of iconic units. But in the back of my mind there is a little hope forming. Proleague's transition to SC2 has the potential to positively influence the future development of this game. Kespa brings the promise of real pull with Blizzard: someone with a bullhorn who can make Blizzard hear what the pro scene needs to be successful with this game. What design elements are and are not good for a spectator sport. They can make Blizz understand what needs to be added to make this a success.
Players like Flash have the ability to show the world what SC2 looks like when it's played at the highest of skill levels. To finally prove whether this game is as balanced as we all think it is. To show us just what depth of strategies and builds are possible. To give us an idea of just how far we can go with this game.
Greater acceptance of SC2 in Korea may just re-create the circumstances that led to the BW community map-making revolution. Imagine what dozens of new, innovative, well designed maps could do for SC2. In BW, Korean map makers were a driving force behind the game's success, and kept it fresh and alive for 12 years. We've already seen how the community maps have forced Blizzard to re-examing the ladder map pool and their entire concept of map balance and design. Now imagine if the same community map making force we saw in BW were to come to SC2. Imagine the influence that might have on how Blizzard looks at and designs this game going forward.
There's the potential for some really big, really positive influence on Blizzard here, one just needs to look past the doom and gloom.
What do you guys think? I can't be the only one who sees the potential benefits here, for both communities. Is there anything I missed, what are you all looking forward to in the new Proleague season? Remember, this is about being positive! 
  
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If the BW and SC2 fanbases were engaged in a Cold War...then the BW side would surely be AMERICA?
to the points:
1. Nothing much to say about this, will probably even watch some SC2, especially after HOTS. And it will be delicious to see BW-first timers being exposed to the most glorious game of all.
2. Flash was so good in BW that it was unhealthy for the scene.
Hope he will do good in SC2, but he probably won't emulate the same dominance, because Tanks suck.
3.evuuuuuul KESPA, evul evul EVUL!
Will probably bring more stability to the scene yes.
4. Here is where our opinions differ. SC2 has more limited options of usage of a unit. Colossus micro? Negative. Incredible Phoenix control? Negative. Mine defus-wait. Carrier micro? lol. Clutch Stasis and Recall? Not in my book. S
And most of the other things that are possible with units have already been discovered by the SC2 pros.
If you mean "strategy" by BO's and Timings, well that's not very exciting, and while there may be improvements, it won't be very interesting to the viewer.
tl:dr the revolution of the BW pros will be smaller than expected (especially if they have to practice BW parallely)
5. Doubt that Blizzard listens. Yes, maybe Kespa and Blizz may have reconciled, but imo Blizz (and DB) is too fucking proud. (Will we see DB accepting the pressure Kespa will put on the development team? The same DB who said "go back to BW if you want to play BW".)
ohh, forgot the mapmaking. yes, the mapmakers will have fun with the galaxy editor.
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the guy below me didn't mean my writeup with "nice writeup"
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On April 27 2012 03:35 blubbdavid wrote:
If the BW and SC2 fanbases were engaged in a Cold War...then the BW side would surely be AMERICA?
lol.... maybe :D
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The hybrid tournament is the clear phasing out of a BW in the roster of games played on OGN. The only reason they are doing it at all is to try and maintain the infrastructure that has been built by BW as much as possible while eventually removing it. You are a complete asshole for suggesting there is any reason for a BW fan to be happy about it, and stating the obvious that an SC2 fan should be happy given that they're going to have an actually well-produced league soon.
Congratulations.
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On April 27 2012 03:51 Chef wrote:
The hybrid tournament is the clear phasing out of a BW in the roster of games played on OGN. The only reason they are doing it at all is to try and maintain the infrastructure that has been built by BW as much as possible while eventually removing it. You are a complete asshole for suggesting there is any reason for a BW fan to be happy about it, and stating the obvious that an SC2 fan should be happy given that they're going to have an actually well-produced league soon.
Congratulations.
I'm pretty sure you've missed my point.
I'm well aware that it's a potentially shitty situation for all involved. SC2 fans aren't exactly ecstatic about having Kespa get involved in their game, and the fallout for GSL could be pretty serious. And I for one am not crazy about the thought of more Korean domination in a scene where competitive foriegners are already becoming a rarity. There's a lot to be unhappy about for both communities in this situation.
The point I'm trying to make is that if we look past the obvious downsides, they're are quite a few positive things that could come out of this. That's the whole idea behind seeing the glass 'half full'. QQing isn't going to change anything, so we might as well try to focus on the positive aspects of this. I'm sorry that you have to see everything in terms of SC2 vs. BW, but there's a lot more going on here than just that.
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kespa needs to DQ more players for not saying ppp
i dont mind if kespa comes in as long as they dont start expecting that this is BW and they can run the SC2 scene as they did BW
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On April 27 2012 03:35 blubbdavid wrote:
4. Here is where our opinions differ. SC2 has more limited options of usage of a unit. Colossus micro? Negative. Incredible Phoenix control? Negative. Mine defus-wait. Carrier micro? lol. Clutch Stasis and Recall? Not in my book. S
And most of the other things that are possible with units have already been discovered by the SC2 pros.
If you mean "strategy" by BO's and Timings, well that's not very exciting, and while there may be improvements, it won't be very interesting to the viewer.
Colossus's cliff walk and vulnerability to air attack actually makes Colossi micro pretty important. But I don't disagree with the other stuff. But I still think there's room for someone with immaculate micro to excel. It will be interesting to see what the game looks like after HotS.
On April 27 2012 04:36 Denzil wrote:
kespa needs to DQ more players for not saying ppp
i dont mind if kespa comes in as long as they dont start expecting that this is BW and they can run the SC2 scene as they did BW
Yeah, I think there's room for Kespa to do some good. But Kespa needs to realize they aren't the only game in town anymore and there's a lot they won't have control over.
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On April 27 2012 03:18 TheToast wrote:
These are the minds that came us with such brilliant strategies, they now bear their namesake: the bisu build, the fantasy iloveoov build, the Iloveoov build.
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i want to be negative.
1 - bringing together communities
there are idiots from each community who always fight anyway.
just look at football vs. american football. combining it? meh.
2 - flash playing sc2
it could be cool.
or it could be like jordan playing baseball. or justin gatlin or brock lesnar playing football.
3 - kespa
i bet we'll see way more conflict.
4 - talented rts players
i dunno. just like talented athletes could fail at sports that aren't their own. i can see top BW players not being top anymore. even the coaches already admitted that. and it would definitely be sad to think about never seeing a bw flash vs. bisu anymore when they're at their peak now in a game that we know they're good at.
5 - influence
i question this, given that BW players didn't influence SC2, why would SC2 players influence the xpac?
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On April 27 2012 05:59 kainzero wrote:
4 - talented rts players
i dunno. just like talented athletes could fail at sports that aren't their own. i can see top BW players not being top anymore. even the coaches already admitted that. and it would definitely be sad to think about never seeing a bw flash vs. bisu anymore when they're at their peak now in a game that we know they're good at.
There is a real possibility that many BW players will fail in their transition to SC2, there's no sense denying it. But I have a hard time believing a player like Flash won't see at least some success. Flash's skill comes in part from a strong, inate talent. Maybe he won't be a bonjwa in SC2, but I think he will be successful. But someone like Zero, who's good but not god; yeah you could be right.
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Eh, I mean, I guess I'd be more excited about bringing together the BW and SC2 communities if I watched BW because I love multiculturalism. Unfortunately for me, I watch BW because I like BW. I imagine the same goes for SC2 fans.
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On April 27 2012 09:34 matjlav wrote:
Eh, I mean, I guess I'd be more excited about bringing together the BW and SC2 communities if I watched BW because I love multiculturalism. Unfortunately for me, I watch BW because I like BW. I imagine the same goes for SC2 fans.
I think there are quite a few people on both sides who have a lot of preconceived notions about the other game, though they've never actually sat down and watched it. I think it would be awesome if the SC2 newcomers could understand the depth of strategy in BW, and likewise if the hardcore BW fans could understand what SC2 fans find so exciting about their game. Doesn't mean they have to like it, but maybe we can develop a little mutual respect; because honestly the flaming in the Flash thread is getting over the top.
I think it would be awesome if both the communities on TL could come together and enjoy a single tournament. Somehow it just seems... appropriate; idk. I think it would really suck if TL had to run separate LR threads because the two communities were flaming each other. TL vets and BW fans cheering on the same teams as TL newcomers and SC2 fans? That sounds awesome to me. Hopefully I'm not alone in that.
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I like this blog. I like both games, too. I still like BW more, but as I've played SC2 and learned a bit about it I've begun to appreciate it a bit. The pro games have been getting better lately too.
I'm torn over the BW icons having to play SC2. On the one hand my pulse gets a little faster at the thought of TBLS playing SC2. On the other I'm a little worried about the possibility of them not rising to the fans' expectations, like fOrGG.
I still can't shake the feeling that I'd rather see the BW players practice BW and the SC2 players practice SC2. If they were doing that I'd be very much in favour of teams playing both games and even having tournaments featuring both.
All that said I am trying to keep a positive outlook; while everyone involved is human and likely to make mistakes I do have the feeling that a lot of people have good intentions and I think there's a strong possibility of us getting to see some exciting games soon.
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New Proleague Season: A Case for Optimism
I am going to be on the fence for this kind of transition to sc2/bw hybrid and into sc2 proleague . Being a broodwar fan I have the advantage of looking back to a reference and foundation to compare to when it comes to determining whether the game is actually "exciting" . There is no doubt that there is some exciting moments in sc2 however the gameplay is really clumsy from a spectator point of view compared to bw and I mean clumsy that the units have the tendency to clump on to each other .
I got no problem transitioning to other games because it's still just a game . Loyalty always have been to counter strike and with cs go coming out I will have a new home right in the corner just waiting for me with open arms and I will retire with bw sinking it's last breath although I will be right next to her when that time comes .
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On April 27 2012 20:17 Sawamura wrote:
New Proleague Season: A Case for Optimism
I am going to be on the fence for this kind of transition to sc2/bw hybrid and into sc2 proleague . Being a broodwar fan I have the advantage of looking back to a reference and foundation to compare to when it comes to determining whether the game is actually "exciting" . There is no doubt that there is some exciting moments in sc2 however the gameplay is really clumsy from a spectator point of view compared to bw and I mean clumsy that the units have the tendency to clump on to each other .
I think most SC2 fans accept that the game isn't perfect, and I really want to stress that it's incomplete; we've still got two expansions coming which will hopefully deal with some of these issues. As far as the micro goes, if you watch really top level players like MKP, they're not just 1a'ing; there's much more fine control in their play style which is something I'm hoping we will see more of as other top Koreans transition. That being said, for most Protoss the clumpy control is actually intended by the players. That's the "deathball" everyone is talking about, and some unit design issues are at fault for it. Blizzard claims to be trying to change it in HotS, but it remains to be seen how successful they will be.
On April 27 2012 13:00 tarpman wrote:
I'm torn over the BW icons having to play SC2. On the one hand my pulse gets a little faster at the thought of TBLS playing SC2. On the other I'm a little worried about the possibility of them not rising to the fans' expectations, like fOrGG.
I still can't shake the feeling that I'd rather see the BW players practice BW and the SC2 players practice SC2. If they were doing that I'd be very much in favour of teams playing both games and even having tournaments featuring both.
I know what you mean. It's not an ideal situation for fans of either game, again my point is that we should focus on some of the positives that can come out of this new format: QQing isn't going to change anything, we're better off being excited for some of the potentially good things.
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On April 27 2012 23:42 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 20:17 Sawamura wrote:
New Proleague Season: A Case for Optimism
I am going to be on the fence for this kind of transition to sc2/bw hybrid and into sc2 proleague . Being a broodwar fan I have the advantage of looking back to a reference and foundation to compare to when it comes to determining whether the game is actually "exciting" . There is no doubt that there is some exciting moments in sc2 however the gameplay is really clumsy from a spectator point of view compared to bw and I mean clumsy that the units have the tendency to clump on to each other .
I think most SC2 fans accept that the game isn't perfect, and I really want to stress that it's incomplete; we've still got two expansions coming which will hopefully deal with some of these issues. As far as the micro goes, if you watch really top level players like MKP, they're not just 1a'ing; there's much more fine control in their play style which is something I'm hoping we will see more of as other top Koreans transition. That being said, for most Protoss the clumpy control is actually intended by the players. That's the "deathball" everyone is talking about, and some unit design issues are at fault for it. Blizzard claims to be trying to change it in HotS, but it remains to be seen how successful they will be. Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 13:00 tarpman wrote:
I'm torn over the BW icons having to play SC2. On the one hand my pulse gets a little faster at the thought of TBLS playing SC2. On the other I'm a little worried about the possibility of them not rising to the fans' expectations, like fOrGG.
I still can't shake the feeling that I'd rather see the BW players practice BW and the SC2 players practice SC2. If they were doing that I'd be very much in favour of teams playing both games and even having tournaments featuring both.
I know what you mean. It's not an ideal situation for fans of either game, again my point is that we should focus on some of the positives that can come out of this new format: QQing isn't going to change anything, we're better off being excited for some of the potentially good things.
Well the broodwar forum is much as dead as the one in gotfrag and it's website .Not going to be optimistic over the changes until I see the results of the switch it self . Also Cs Go has been pulling me back for a while now and when the games get more advertisement and the competitive scene starts to kick up . I would probably find my self on that game more than starcraft these days .
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On April 27 2012 06:59 TheToast wrote:
There is a real possibility that many BW players will fail in their transition to SC2, there's no sense denying it. But I have a hard time believing a player like Flash won't see at least some success. Flash's skill comes in part from a strong, inate talent. Maybe he won't be a bonjwa in SC2, but I think he will be successful. But someone like Zero, who's good but not god; yeah you could be right.
even if we suppose that top BW players don't become a massive fail, let's say sc2 flash becomes the equivalent of bw sea.
that still sucks.
instead of watching a legendary player play legendary games we're stuck watching him just be very good.
how sad is that?
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On April 28 2012 01:57 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 06:59 TheToast wrote:
There is a real possibility that many BW players will fail in their transition to SC2, there's no sense denying it. But I have a hard time believing a player like Flash won't see at least some success. Flash's skill comes in part from a strong, inate talent. Maybe he won't be a bonjwa in SC2, but I think he will be successful. But someone like Zero, who's good but not god; yeah you could be right. even if we suppose that top BW players don't become a massive fail, let's say sc2 flash becomes the equivalent of bw sea. that still sucks. instead of watching a legendary player play legendary games we're stuck watching him just be very good. how sad is that?
Yeah, it's not great. But again, QQing isn't going to change anything, we might as well try to enjoy seeing Flash in SC2.
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On April 28 2012 02:36 TheToast wrote:
Yeah, it's not great. But again, QQing isn't going to change anything, we might as well try to enjoy seeing Flash in SC2.
that's what people say, but i don't want to watch sc2.
bw and sc2's competition isn't just other e-sports. it's other sports, movies, novels, tv shows, entertainment.
why watch flash switch from a game he's played all his life to play a game that he might be gimped at?
i'll just watch the nba or nfl again.
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EPT
