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Some thoughts on why SC2 feels stagnant

Blogs > MarineKush
Post a Reply
Bishnu Ghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
34 Posts
April 26 2012 06:08 GMT
#1
I posted this below in a response to a Reddit thread asking why all the 1v1 maps feel the same and that the games feel stagnant, I think it is worthy of some discussion, but feel free to say otherwise. It's my first blog post.
______



I’m really happy you posted this because I have been thinking about something similar as of late. I was reviewing my play and noticed that I no longer took advantage of short air distances or cliffs (I play T); any banshee build I did was purely random or based on what I scouted.

About a year ago, I wrote down some of my thoughts in a personal log regarding my feelings towards the current meta-games and strategies. One thing I wrote down was my definition of a great player: “one who wins using the best strategies for a specific map given the circumstances of the game (player, style, history, etc).” This was around the time that Polt was considered a very all-in player, I noted that although he may cheese or all-in he was still considered a top player. I recall him executing the raven 1-1-1 in TvP many times without variance, he was a protoss-killer not a cheeser.

I think the question the OP asks is why have we started to yearn for maps that allow for the best macro games, why do we demand perfect balance? I did not play BW but I have noticed that the mainstay of early talent and big names in the SC2 community stressed the importance of macro games and that being the best determinant of a player’s true skill.

My theory is that BW players have brought their BW mentalities with them in an attempt to skip the development phase of game as a whole because ‘macro’ is what defines us.

Let me clarify. Every cheese either gets solved through meta-tactics or gets nerfed by Blizzard, and what follows from that is the evolution of the meta-game. All strategies or builds slowly conform to one strategy. But the BW attitude has prevented the real development of such a meta-game by demanding to move immediately into macro games and forego playing seasons on maps like Kulas or Jungle B. I think that’s why Day9 will say things like “yes macro is king, but lets not even focus on balance”.

The BW players, and in my mind the most influential on the community were Day9, Artosis and Idra; they all built their name in the community by talking about what made them successful in SC2’s predecessor. The Day9 Daily was undoubtedly the best source of games and knowledge in the beginning, Artosis the analyst of GSL and Idra, well known in the NA tourney scene for his badboy attitude and personal life goal to ensure everyone who doesn’t play a macro game apologizes for doing so. The thing is they never meant to do any harm, just provide insights as to what was successful in SC1 after ten years of game play and it was an economical focused style of play that did not rely on hidden tech. All-ins and cheeses have the negative connotation for this very reason, it was frowned upon and never successful in the long run.

But SC2 is not ready for that yet. The weird maps and strange cheeses need to be allowed to continue for two main reasons: first, to allow the real meta-game to develop through maps, which may carry some imbalance, but inspire creativity and tactical abilities, and second, to ensure that the game does not become so stagnant as to stunt the growth of the game. BW is only what it is because of the deep thinking and understanding that pushed the game to its limits, creating such a long lasting passion for the game. If SC2 is to be as great as BW it should follow the same path. The races and lore may be the same, but new units and AI means it all needs to start from scratch. Leave in the maps and let the cheesers cheese, they are both integral to the development of the real meta-game. Many are convinced the meta-game has already been figured out, but it is a huge fallacy.

In my opinion it is a mistake to believe that the meta-game has almost been solved so early in the life of the game. If it was close to being solved, it was only done so by the constant begging and crying of imbalance and the need for endless nerfs, which were bred by the community leaders in an effort to merely educate. Idra and Artosis created a show purely to discuss what stands in the way of macro games, and the community loved that show! Balance is such an issue in the community because there is a feeling of entitlement that if I am playing 'macro' style then I deserve to win.

I've said far too much so to finally answer the OP: we ask for boring, balanced maps because we want macro games to be real because Day9 told us they were. The truth is they are real, but no ones seen one yet in SC2 and if all the interesting maps die out we will only be left with a meta-game that was artificially created to satisfy our desire for perfection rather than our desire to evolve into such a anomaly.

**
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
April 26 2012 06:48 GMT
#2
Despite the negative connotations of "all in, or cheese strategies" as you call them, they still are very viable and used in tournaments and ladder alike (as you've already stated) haha.

I agree with what you're saying, and I personally don't mind there being all ins or cheeses, and especially don't mind them being map specific. Like you've stated, it would add creativity to the games.

I truly think that allins and cheese are perfectly fine as long as they somehow do not break the "balance" at all. Sure, maybe a build is really hard to hold.. almost too hard. I agree maybe something like that should be nerfed.. but if there is a clear, shown, and tested way to defeat an all in, I'd rather learn that than call imbalance on it or put it aside as a bad strategy.

I really do think that the game is coming closer to being balanced than it was over a year ago when I first started, and I think that all "cheese" strategies will reflect that, and their opposing counters will be apparent.
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
Piledriver
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1697 Posts
April 26 2012 07:36 GMT
#3
Firstly, I'm assuming that you use the word "meta game" as a loose substitute for the phrase "popular trends in strategy". With that being said, I'd like to question why you feel that the "meta game" is "stagnant"? Has there not been enough evolution of the game over the past two years? Imagine PvZ 1 year back, when CrunCher defeated IdrA and Mondragon in TSL. Fast forward to PvZ of today and see the world of difference.

Secondly, progamers do not subscribe to teamliquid, reddit or battle.net's perception of "standard" play and "cheese" play. They will always play the strategy that maximizes their chance of winning the game. aLive's TvT against MarineKing in IPL comes to mind. He opened proxy marauders in 2 games because he expected MarineKing to play a certain style, and his gamble paid off, by putting him significantly ahead in both games.

Thirdly, while diversity of maps are important, it does not mean that maps should have blatantly terrible features (like Lost temple cliffs) that allow one race to reap maximum rewards with minimal effort, (and conversely require perfect play from the opposite side to not lose the game immediately).

Finally, the strategy of starcraft 2 will naturally evolve at a much faster rate than BW evolved. This is not only because of the similarity in both the games, but also because of things like a fully functional ladder system, replay system, build order analyzers and the existence of a structured system for progaming (which were unheard of at the beginning of BW),
Envy fan since NTH.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 07:52:47
April 26 2012 07:51 GMT
#4
I would say what every sc2 fans have been saying out there that is "to give it time " So I don't mind waiting for sc2 to reach it's epic status in 10 years . While I enjoy other games out there with much better community and openness ^_^. Good luck sc2 and your expansion.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
April 26 2012 09:23 GMT
#5
Okay, since you didn't watch BW let me tell you that the last season of Proleague was the cheesiest of all time. There were so many timing attacks and proxies, it was sickening. The games were complete shit and boring to watch. That's why people want macro games because a cheese might be exciting the first time but after the fifteenth proxy rax in a row it starts to get seriously annoying while a macro game stays fresh and exciting. You're talking like all macro games look the same which is total bullshit. There's still plenty of room for creativity in a longer game.
Second of all, how do you define a better player? If you define better as having a better winning percentage then yeah, cheesing will work wonders. If you define it as superior mechanics, multitasking, strategic depth and knowledge then a macro game will test that for you. You can't really demonstrate those skills (maybe micro) in a cheese game.
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