• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:55
CEST 15:55
KST 22:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)9BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 26619 users

Some thoughts on why SC2 feels stagnant

Blogs > MarineKush
Post a Reply
Bishnu Ghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
34 Posts
April 26 2012 06:08 GMT
#1
I posted this below in a response to a Reddit thread asking why all the 1v1 maps feel the same and that the games feel stagnant, I think it is worthy of some discussion, but feel free to say otherwise. It's my first blog post.
______



I’m really happy you posted this because I have been thinking about something similar as of late. I was reviewing my play and noticed that I no longer took advantage of short air distances or cliffs (I play T); any banshee build I did was purely random or based on what I scouted.

About a year ago, I wrote down some of my thoughts in a personal log regarding my feelings towards the current meta-games and strategies. One thing I wrote down was my definition of a great player: “one who wins using the best strategies for a specific map given the circumstances of the game (player, style, history, etc).” This was around the time that Polt was considered a very all-in player, I noted that although he may cheese or all-in he was still considered a top player. I recall him executing the raven 1-1-1 in TvP many times without variance, he was a protoss-killer not a cheeser.

I think the question the OP asks is why have we started to yearn for maps that allow for the best macro games, why do we demand perfect balance? I did not play BW but I have noticed that the mainstay of early talent and big names in the SC2 community stressed the importance of macro games and that being the best determinant of a player’s true skill.

My theory is that BW players have brought their BW mentalities with them in an attempt to skip the development phase of game as a whole because ‘macro’ is what defines us.

Let me clarify. Every cheese either gets solved through meta-tactics or gets nerfed by Blizzard, and what follows from that is the evolution of the meta-game. All strategies or builds slowly conform to one strategy. But the BW attitude has prevented the real development of such a meta-game by demanding to move immediately into macro games and forego playing seasons on maps like Kulas or Jungle B. I think that’s why Day9 will say things like “yes macro is king, but lets not even focus on balance”.

The BW players, and in my mind the most influential on the community were Day9, Artosis and Idra; they all built their name in the community by talking about what made them successful in SC2’s predecessor. The Day9 Daily was undoubtedly the best source of games and knowledge in the beginning, Artosis the analyst of GSL and Idra, well known in the NA tourney scene for his badboy attitude and personal life goal to ensure everyone who doesn’t play a macro game apologizes for doing so. The thing is they never meant to do any harm, just provide insights as to what was successful in SC1 after ten years of game play and it was an economical focused style of play that did not rely on hidden tech. All-ins and cheeses have the negative connotation for this very reason, it was frowned upon and never successful in the long run.

But SC2 is not ready for that yet. The weird maps and strange cheeses need to be allowed to continue for two main reasons: first, to allow the real meta-game to develop through maps, which may carry some imbalance, but inspire creativity and tactical abilities, and second, to ensure that the game does not become so stagnant as to stunt the growth of the game. BW is only what it is because of the deep thinking and understanding that pushed the game to its limits, creating such a long lasting passion for the game. If SC2 is to be as great as BW it should follow the same path. The races and lore may be the same, but new units and AI means it all needs to start from scratch. Leave in the maps and let the cheesers cheese, they are both integral to the development of the real meta-game. Many are convinced the meta-game has already been figured out, but it is a huge fallacy.

In my opinion it is a mistake to believe that the meta-game has almost been solved so early in the life of the game. If it was close to being solved, it was only done so by the constant begging and crying of imbalance and the need for endless nerfs, which were bred by the community leaders in an effort to merely educate. Idra and Artosis created a show purely to discuss what stands in the way of macro games, and the community loved that show! Balance is such an issue in the community because there is a feeling of entitlement that if I am playing 'macro' style then I deserve to win.

I've said far too much so to finally answer the OP: we ask for boring, balanced maps because we want macro games to be real because Day9 told us they were. The truth is they are real, but no ones seen one yet in SC2 and if all the interesting maps die out we will only be left with a meta-game that was artificially created to satisfy our desire for perfection rather than our desire to evolve into such a anomaly.

**
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
April 26 2012 06:48 GMT
#2
Despite the negative connotations of "all in, or cheese strategies" as you call them, they still are very viable and used in tournaments and ladder alike (as you've already stated) haha.

I agree with what you're saying, and I personally don't mind there being all ins or cheeses, and especially don't mind them being map specific. Like you've stated, it would add creativity to the games.

I truly think that allins and cheese are perfectly fine as long as they somehow do not break the "balance" at all. Sure, maybe a build is really hard to hold.. almost too hard. I agree maybe something like that should be nerfed.. but if there is a clear, shown, and tested way to defeat an all in, I'd rather learn that than call imbalance on it or put it aside as a bad strategy.

I really do think that the game is coming closer to being balanced than it was over a year ago when I first started, and I think that all "cheese" strategies will reflect that, and their opposing counters will be apparent.
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
Piledriver
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1697 Posts
April 26 2012 07:36 GMT
#3
Firstly, I'm assuming that you use the word "meta game" as a loose substitute for the phrase "popular trends in strategy". With that being said, I'd like to question why you feel that the "meta game" is "stagnant"? Has there not been enough evolution of the game over the past two years? Imagine PvZ 1 year back, when CrunCher defeated IdrA and Mondragon in TSL. Fast forward to PvZ of today and see the world of difference.

Secondly, progamers do not subscribe to teamliquid, reddit or battle.net's perception of "standard" play and "cheese" play. They will always play the strategy that maximizes their chance of winning the game. aLive's TvT against MarineKing in IPL comes to mind. He opened proxy marauders in 2 games because he expected MarineKing to play a certain style, and his gamble paid off, by putting him significantly ahead in both games.

Thirdly, while diversity of maps are important, it does not mean that maps should have blatantly terrible features (like Lost temple cliffs) that allow one race to reap maximum rewards with minimal effort, (and conversely require perfect play from the opposite side to not lose the game immediately).

Finally, the strategy of starcraft 2 will naturally evolve at a much faster rate than BW evolved. This is not only because of the similarity in both the games, but also because of things like a fully functional ladder system, replay system, build order analyzers and the existence of a structured system for progaming (which were unheard of at the beginning of BW),
Envy fan since NTH.
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 07:52:47
April 26 2012 07:51 GMT
#4
I would say what every sc2 fans have been saying out there that is "to give it time " So I don't mind waiting for sc2 to reach it's epic status in 10 years . While I enjoy other games out there with much better community and openness ^_^. Good luck sc2 and your expansion.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
April 26 2012 09:23 GMT
#5
Okay, since you didn't watch BW let me tell you that the last season of Proleague was the cheesiest of all time. There were so many timing attacks and proxies, it was sickening. The games were complete shit and boring to watch. That's why people want macro games because a cheese might be exciting the first time but after the fifteenth proxy rax in a row it starts to get seriously annoying while a macro game stays fresh and exciting. You're talking like all macro games look the same which is total bullshit. There's still plenty of room for creativity in a longer game.
Second of all, how do you define a better player? If you define better as having a better winning percentage then yeah, cheesing will work wonders. If you define it as superior mechanics, multitasking, strategic depth and knowledge then a macro game will test that for you. You can't really demonstrate those skills (maybe micro) in a cheese game.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill Weekly #213
CranKy Ducklings93
Liquipedia
WardiTV Invitational
11:00
WardiTV June Group D & 1/2C
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs SpiritLIVE!
YoungYakov vs MaxPax
WardiTV980
IndyStarCraft 239
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 239
ProTech80
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 35827
Calm 9462
firebathero 4638
Hyuk 801
EffOrt 754
Stork 508
Mini 451
actioN 394
Larva 351
Shuttle 343
[ Show more ]
ZerO 332
Zeus 294
Light 151
Rush 129
hero 97
ToSsGirL 65
Barracks 43
sorry 36
[sc1f]eonzerg 30
sas.Sziky 29
sSak 21
Nal_rA 15
HiyA 13
IntoTheRainbow 12
scan(afreeca) 12
SilentControl 10
Noble 9
ajuk12(nOOB) 5
ivOry 3
Yoon 2
Terrorterran 1
Dota 2
Gorgc4534
qojqva2429
XcaliburYe318
syndereN283
boxi9885
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2618
byalli262
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0537
Westballz42
Other Games
B2W.Neo541
hiko405
Fuzer 375
DeMusliM319
crisheroes291
elazer208
ArmadaUGS154
XaKoH 116
Liquid`VortiX90
djWHEAT62
KnowMe52
QueenE46
ZerO(Twitch)24
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream8075
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV392
League of Legends
• Nemesis7933
• Jankos2285
Upcoming Events
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
5h 5m
Korean StarCraft League
13h 5m
SOOP
19h 5m
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
20h 5m
WardiTV Invitational
21h 5m
Cheesadelphia
1d 1h
CSO Cup
1d 3h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 4h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
GSL Code S
1d 18h
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 20h
[ Show More ]
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
4 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.