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On April 10 2012 04:07 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:50 MstrJinbo wrote:On April 10 2012 01:15 Sinensis wrote:I get hit with 3 gate robo, expo, collossus builds, zealot immortal pushes, Stephano's mass roach, two base muta, muta/ling, infestor/ling (icefisher) transitioning into Broodlords. I get hit with six pools, 10 pools, 8 pools, 7 roach pressure, baneling busts, 3 stalker aggression, ThorZain's marine/tank spoon push, 1-1-1s, proxy bunkers, two base 6 gates, etc. I doubt if you've been hit with half of these builds. No one in bronze executes any of these builds well/correctly. If they did, they would not be in bronze. There are no build orders in bronze. There is no cheese. Just because someone builds a barracks, a factory, and a starport doesn't make it a 1-1-1. Im far away from bronze. In fact I've never been bronze ever. Still If Nestea saw me attempt his three base muta build he might say much the same thing. It's really all a matter of perspective. And he would probably be right in saying that just like you/me/anyone else would be right in saying that bronze players don't execute their builds correctly. There are so many little smudges while executing a build order that while performing it it feels alright but when someone knows what it's supposed to look like and takes a step back and looks at it, it looks very messy. This is true for Bronze players, Platinum players, and hell, probably even most Master players. The only difference between them is when they fall off the track. A master player might be able to execute his build against all variations up til the 15:00 minute mark while a bronze has trouble getting it right up to the 6:00 minute mark against an AI. To anyone who disagrees with this, upload a replay of your best game and I guarantee you there will be some obvious mistakes.
Nobody saying differently. But seriously, Why do these posts always bring out people's theories on why people are in bronze. There is no vague open ended question about build orders. There is no replay to evaluate. There is no baseless claim that "my macro is fine but my strategy is bad". The the op is sharing his experiences that his fellow bronze players are working hard to improve and emulate pros. I'm just saying don't dismiss what they are trying just because they don't do it as well as thorzain or nestea.
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My honest opinion as to why Gheed gets bm'd so hard on the ladder is because Bronze players, a lot of them anyway get frustrated easily (i have a few buddies who play in bronze level and all 3 get extremely agitated by the littlest things) because rather than waiting for results and taking time to understand why they're losing they lash out. They're quick to point the finger and automatically assume what he's doing is 100% cheese, when in all actuality he's saying 'here have a free win bud!'. So when they lose in the first 3-5 minutes of the game or however long they drag the game out, it's all of a sudden assumed because (some not all) don't really understand why they lost, and think it's because he's using some cheesy strategy that's extremely hard to hold.
After saying all of that, I have to say that I love your optimistic look at the hell that is Battle.net, and wish more players would take to it.
Glhf sir
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On April 10 2012 04:34 MstrJinbo wrote: I'm just saying don't dismiss what they are trying just because they don't do it as well as thorzain or nestea.
What intrigues me isn't why they aren't doing as well as Thorzain or Nestea, but why they aren't doing as well as me. Because based purely on how many of these blogs describe the way they're playing, the out-of-game analysis they're doing, the way they follow the scene and the amount of time they have to play, they should be above me in the ladder, not below. Something doesn't compute. It doesn't make sense to me to shrug and say "I guess I'm just better." I feel like there has to be some reason all that effort isn't helping as much as my experience says it should. I feel that there must be enough players who aren't going to all that effort to fill bronze to bursting, so why are so many people who are actively trying, stuck with them?
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Great read. I agree, the BM that Gheed is getting is due to his worker rushing.
In terms of the skill level of bronze. yeah it really runs the gamut. and there are bronze players that actually know builds and aren't just at 2 rax at the 15 minute mark. I know because I was a bronze player not that long ago. I knew the builds on a kind of theoretical level. I watched mlg and gsl and read strategy guides. The issue was terrible terrible execution among other things. Once I started working on the execution of basic builds my win rate started shooting up. Suddenly the game litterally felt different.
Playing felt easy and effortless. I would just kind of randomly decide on a basic strategy and just do it and dominate just about every time. Then I got promoted to silver and things got harder. I still felt strong but I had to try much harder. I finally ranked up to gold and that's where I've been for 3 seasons or so.
A while ago I was playing on the PTR and only was facing Diamond and Master players (I always asked). I would get destroyed incredibly easily. It was like we were playing a different game entirely. It felt like I was in bronze again and had no clue what I was doing. I knew there were things I was doing poorly that I could improve on but I was shocked that I could be so totally and utterly dominated based on those "little things".
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Wow, I didn't realize people were still reading this. Thanks for your feedback!
@LazinCajun: Thanks for that, I remember seeing it somewhere but it must have gotten lost in the morass of stuff I was trying to absorb.
@Sinensis: You are absolutely right, watching someone build rax/fact/port does not equate to a 1-1-1 in Bronze league. I've done some serious re-watching of my replays and these guys are just as lost as I am. It takes practice, and loads of it, for a noob such as myself to develop any level of competence at an RTS.
@Najda: See my remark to Sinensis :D I looked very hard at my replays, and even had a Master's friend of mine demonstrate a proper (if 10 second late) 4 gate which demolished me.
In other news, I just got put in Silver. The main difference I see now is that I actually see my fuckups. I am more aware of what I'm doing. I'm still blind to a lot of it, but I'm starting to notice small details that are (slowly) helping me smooth out my play.
Which sucks balls (see third blog entry). Yeah, Bronzies really are that bad, they just don't know it. Executing something well is far beyond my abilities, in glaring spite of my laughable league promotion. Yes, I'm better than 20% of SC2 players. That doesn't say much when there are what, 32 players in Code S GSL? Granted, those guys are the outliers, but their play is so far superior to mine that I find it difficult to believe I could even approach their skill.
That said, I'm not going to let a little thing like statistics stop me. DaVinci once said that art is 1% inspiration and 99% persperation. Well, I need to input the perperation to get better.
-Loki
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EPT
