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After today's amazing, incredible SPL finals, I couldn't help but feel bad for Flash. Mind you, I am not a Flash fan, but a Bisu fan (MVP!!). However, Flash showed why he is number 1, he played incredibly, and would have won against any other protoss even on that map.
After the game, during KT coach 이지훈's (Lee Ji Hoon) interview, I thought it was unprofessional about his comments towards Flash. You could see Flash breakdown and cry during his interview. Basically, what he said was, this is an except from his interview (I am playing the video to type it down)
정말 많이 아쉽습니다. 일단은 이영호 선수가, 뭐 다들 아시겠지만 체인 리액션이라는 맵 자체가 워낙에 토스대 테란 밸런스가 토스쪽으로 많이 치우쳐서 준비를 시킬까 말까 계속 고민 했는데 본인이 나서서 그래도 제가 해야 하는게 맞다고 본인이 얘기를 해서 그래서 코칭 스태프와 모든 선수들이 힘을 실어줬는데, 그래서 아쉽게 졌지만은 (Video shows Flash crying here) 뭐 원망하거나 그런건 아니고...
TRANSLATION:
This is really too bad. First of all, as you know, Chain Reaction is an unbalanced map that is really favored for Protoss, so we contemplated if we should let Flash prepare for this map or not. However, Flash came forward and said that he should be the one to play, therefore, all the coaching staff and players supported him and gave him strength.Unfortunately he lost, but it isn't like we are going to hold grudge against him...
Really coach?
Is this something a coach should say? Flash pretty much has led this team alone for how many years, and this is the sort of comment that the coaching staff says to the public? He definitely would have faced some flames from the fans saying, "Why didn't you let Stats or Hoejja play!? It is not a T map!", so he took the final stage interview to BACK OFF from the blames?
I really feel for Flash. He just broke down when coach said that comment. I don't know what his contract is like right now, but I bet that he wouldn't want to play for that coach at this moment.
Edit:
Post interview by Coach Lee was better worded and done in a professional way.
From Daily eSports
KT 이지훈 감독은 "이영호가 2패를 당하기는 했지만 정규 시즌부터 최고의 플레이를 펼쳤던 것은 부인할 수 없다. 팀에서 에이스 결정전에 이영호를 출전시킬지 고민했지만 출전을 자청하는 등 멋진 모습을 보여준 이영호에게 고맙다고 전하고 싶다"고 말했다.
KT Coach Lee said, "Flash did get 2 losses, but there is no denying that he has played brilliantly since the season began. We were contemplating whether to send out Flash for the ACE match, and I want to thank Flash for stepping up to the role and playing a great game"
According to the post interview, what he said on stage was just really poorly worded. However, there would have been people bitching at the coach regardless of the decision he made.
If Flash sent out and lost -> "Why coach? it is a bad map for T and Flash already lost. Why not send out 1 of the zergs or Stats who is ahead of Bisu in PvP match up?"
Same goes for Stats and zerg players, why not send out Flash?
The comment he made and the situation is just too 'coincidental' to ignore.
p.s. No I don't think Flash should leave the team -_- but if I was Flash, I certainly would not feel like playing under someone who said that on the stage, regardless of what the context was.
  
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Doesn't seem like that bad of a comment to me. At least when translated in English it doesn't sound all that harsh. He's simply explaining why Flash was sent out for the ace match on a bad terran map instead of repeating their strategy from the semis vs Khan and sending out Stats. He said that KT supported him and they wouldn't hold a grudge. Unless there's something passive agressive in his tone I don't see why this statement upsets you.
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It would have been better to back up Flash and not comment about the decision (coach take blame instead of Flash), poor Flash, but yea.. that type of comment breaks a player down easily as he will regret to have gone on ace. And that comment about the grudge... what type of coach would hold a grudge against his own player, kind of gives the feel that it is "Flash fault but we wont blame him." I think also Flash was too confident going to the Finals, thats why also he took it so hard.
I wasnt that confident in the ace match given his performance against Fantasy, but he played really really well against Bisu. Bisu took advantage of the map (pressure with 1 gate) so that Flash had to move away from his plan. I think Flash reincforced his push a bit too much, counter was really obvious, made me remember Fantasy vs Jangbi. When Bisu was about to lose his core, i think Flash should have thought that a zealot counter was coming and prepare with mines/tanks/walloff.
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hmm, not sure which part of that comment I should find inappropriate. In fact, It was encouraging that he complement Flash for stood up for himself and play on an imba map. He even stated that the whole team support flash and won't hold any grudge against him.
EDIT: except if there's something missing from the original statement
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Basically from what I gather the Coach was hinting that it was due to Flash's ego that they lost, and while he says they will not hold a grudge, the rest of that team will forever remember Flash losing that game. This is what pisses me off, when an amazing game is played and then at the end the losing side blames their own player instead of complimenting the other team.
Some people may say that they should have played Stats or someone else play, but when you have someone as amazing like Flash on your roster and you know he is capable of winning every game he plays, you shouldn't be reluctant to send out your best player and he shouldn't have to stand up himself, it's the coaches job to recognize who Flash is and to show support and confidence in his best player.
It was a great match and an even better finals, but I wish that I never read that interview, it just shows poor sportsmanship on that Coach's part.
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I'm agreeing with red4ce here, I fail to see valid reasons on why you should be angry. I mean, I can't see why Flash would cry over the coaches comment.
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What the hell are you talking about?
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It doesn't sound like he's blaming Flash at all. And I really doubt he would ever blame Flash. They are a close-knit team and Coach Lee has taken good care of Flash over the years. Flash's parents put a lot of trust in Coach Lee.
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Just like Obelisco said, he said in the context of Flash said he will take full responsibility of ACE match regardless of the map imbalance, but we won't blame him. It was pretty much blaming Flash.
What can you guys NOT see from that interview. Head coach of a team does not blame a player. That was by no means a compliment to Flash playing in the ACE match.
It is possible that English translation may sound bit more appropriate. As someone who heard the interview (And people on Korean forums brought up this problem too), coach's comments are pretty unprofessional.
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I don't see ANYTHING bad about the coach's comments lol..
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Unprofessional and perhaps poorly worded, but certainly ambiguous enough that I don't think you could claim that Hoon fully intended to blame Flash with that interview.
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For people not understanding what the coach is saying, he basically said, Don't blame the coach for playing Flash in the final match that is Weak T map, because Flash himself wanted to play it. Very strategic comment to avoid the blame for the loss on coach's part. Very poorly worded and the tone too. He pretty much said all the responsibility is on Flash for losing, BUT he won't blame him... like wtf is that. In a professional team, head coach should take full responsibility of all the results. This is like putting the blame on his subordinate as a captain of the ship
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The reason why this answer pissed off a lot of people is that the coach is very subtly hinting that because Flash told the coaches to play him, and because he lost, the blame can be placed on him rather than the coaches. Just think of how Flash feels without the comment in his position, and now add in the fact that the coach is practically telling people to blame Flash for the loss, makes this a pretty harsh thing to say.
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first time i cried for the loser of the game even though i was rooting for the winner
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I was watching it live this morning, and I heard KT' head coach Lee's comments loud and clear... well probably not that clear because I was furiously translating and typing it away on Sayle's chat. But from what I got, I instantly got a feeling that people could find it poorly worded / somewhat unprofessional. Knowing how supportive and encouraging coach Lee has been in his career, I believe that what he meant to convey was that KT really gave it their best as a team. If it was indeed coach's intent to let people know that Flash was the stubborn one who heavily insisted that he wanted to go for ace match, then yes I think he owes an apology to Flash and KT fans in general.
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I think being able to understand Korean gives you a bit more of information on the tone of how he's saying things...
Essentially he just goes: I thought it was a bad idea to send Flash as the ace but he really wanted to do it and we gave him our unconditional support, and he lost.
This last bit is about as unprofessional as it can get 원망하거나 그런건 아니고...
He's essentially saying: "oh but don't blame flash for our loss"
It's salt in the wound if you're flash hearing this. You're already feeling responsible for the loss and then the person who is supposed to go:
"Yeah SKT played a very good match and their aces were prepared enough to take the ultimate weapon down. It's a sad day,but we'll be back in full force next season. After all 2 gold and 1 silver in 3 years isn't all that bad."
Idk if leaving the team is reasonable but this is certainly going to hurt the coach-player relationship.
@Opticalshot. I think he meant it to be that way because otherwise there was no reason to bring it up.
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In English the comments don't seem very unprofessional at all. Perhaps something is being lost in the cultural or linguistic translation?
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Man...that sucks so much for flash T___T
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I don't really know. I guess it was somewhat inconsiderate from the coach and I feel for Flash. Leaving the team would seem like an overreaction to me though. :T
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WOAH
Woahh .......... Foreal????? KT Coach said that?
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Idk, as I don't understand Korean. But if the coach really blaming Flash for losing the ace match that was way over the line.
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Not a good comment. I hope its just a case of the coach putting his foot in his mouth when on the spot. Surely everyone was emotional at the end of such an intense series. If he were to apologize I think it would be forgivable.
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He was trying to stress that the team's ok with Flash dropping the ACE match.
What got stressed was him trying to push the ACE pick decision responsibility off his shoulder and onto Flash's.
Unfortunate but I think his intent was good.
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since when did we turn into the sc2 community where every little shit is made into a HUGE FCKING DEAL. There was nothing wrong with that comment at all. I bet even flash blames himself right now. And as ryo said, everyone on KT is really close like family, I dont see any hate coming from those comments. I mean, seriously, this blog is sc2 level.
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I think you're misinterpreting the message due to culture differences. This is the intended message as i perceive it:
1) I'm sad that our team lost
2) Map is imbalanced. We have faith in Flash, but would never force him to play that map. However, he wanted to, and we supported that decision. (I don't see how it can be perceived as "zomg it's a bad idea but we let him anyway")
3) He lost, but that changes nothing. We don't blame our players and that goes for everyone, God's included.
I don't get why you get the impression that there is any kind of grudge. He specifically states otherwise. What I see is an honest coach who states that he supported the decision of Flash player since Flash wanted to play.
Must be a culture thing as I see no blame in that message.
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Not be be a baddie, but link to video?
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On April 09 2012 05:13 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
For people not understanding what the coach is saying, he basically said, Don't blame the coach for playing Flash in the final match that is Weak T map, because Flash himself wanted to play it. Very strategic comment to avoid the blame for the loss on coach's part. Very poorly worded and the tone too. He pretty much said all the responsibility is on Flash for losing, BUT he won't blame him... like wtf is that. In a professional team, head coach should take full responsibility of all the results. This is like putting the blame on his subordinate as a captain of the ship
This exactly.
I've always hated KT coach for being easily getting angry, but now it shows how unprofessional he is and how he blames his favorite player when situations get dire. Not only that, but he also says map is imba instead of saying SKT players played well. You don't see other team coaches complaining about how map is unbalanced or how T is rigged. I think this finals shows the true nature to him
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It's definitely a culture thing.
In all three oriental cultures (China, Korea, and Japan in these regards) what the coach said was poorly worded and can absolutely be construed as a dick move.
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On April 09 2012 19:14 Newbistic wrote:
It's definitely a culture thing.
In all three oriental cultures (China, Korea, and Japan in these regards) what the coach said was poorly worded and can absolutely be construed as a dick move.
Definetly not a culture thing. A coach is always responsible for the loss and like the guy above us said he's basically putting the responsibility on Flash who has carried the team for years now.
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he would probably take a pay cut, the other teams dont pay as well as the telecoms, so wise decision to stay there
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On April 09 2012 05:06 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Just like Obelisco said, he said in the context of Flash said he will take full responsibility of ACE match regardless of the map imbalance, but we won't blame him. It was pretty much blaming Flash.
What can you guys NOT see from that interview. Head coach of a team does not blame a player. That was by no means a compliment to Flash playing in the ACE match.
It is possible that English translation may sound bit more appropriate. As someone who heard the interview (And people on Korean forums brought up this problem too), coach's comments are pretty unprofessional.
dude, really? i was there at the event (along with kona and a bunch of other TLers). it was OBVIOUS to us at the interview that coach was blaming the inherent imbalance of chain reaction for flash's loss. it was the very first thing he said (apart from congratulating the skt players). he was trying to cover for flash losing an ace match by blaming the map. in fact, he was actually trying to big up flash's willingness to try overcome such an imbalance in such an important situation. he wasn't putting any blame whatsoever from flash.
also, your translation misses the point that he was trying to get across, which was that flash was MANNING UP to take the ace no matter what the map was, and that they accepted his decision and prepared him in the best possible way, and even with flash's best efforts, the inherent shittiness of matchup could not be overcome.
edit2: sigh at all these comments taking OP's words at face value and then proceeding to bash the coach. really?
also, you don't understand korean culture here. in any sport, the coach NEVER EVER EVER blames a single individual for a loss IN PUBLIC. EVER.
On April 09 2012 08:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:
WOAH
Woahh .......... Foreal????? KT Coach said that?
what did he say that made you go WOAH?
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Sorry zeehar, but I am Korean (And I speak Korean 100% fluently and understand Korean culture 100%), and this is not just MY opinion, but I am reading the same thing from Korean portals, where they are blaming the coach for 'dissing' Flash.
All the Korean friends who has watched this final just like me thought the coach was a huge dick. This includes people I know in real life, as well as my clan mates, where many of them are Korean. You are absolutely wrong with the fact that he was backing up Flash for manning up? lol. It does not matter if you were there or not, in fact, watching the video is even more precise because I can rewind and listen to his tone and what he said over and over.
My translation makes it sound better than how it was. What he said in Korean was even worse. You don't say 원망하거나 그런건 아니구.. if you don't understand what he's trying to get across here at this point... I will have to take it that you don't understand Korean language very well. What's with telling a full Korean who's lived in Korea for a long time that he doesn't understand Korean culture..?
A proper statement from the coach would have been;
영호가 어려운 맵임에도 불구하고 열심히 싸워줬지만 경기를 져서 유감입니다.
Now, this would have had no problem and would have backed up Flash for playing his heart out on such an unbalanced map.
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Flash should leave KT? that's some Reddit Starcraft 2 level of sensationalism right there. Emotions were flaring, Flash and his coach are both intelligent people, they'll get over it
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I sure hope so. I just felt really angry for Flash. Especially because he started to cry uncontrollably at that moment. It's something that should never be said by a coach. I wish I had written the title as "Unprofessional comment by KT coach", I know I wrote it as extreme
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Either way, it should leave a bad taste in the mouth of KT fans. If the coach hadn't said anything, he probably would have exploded in the next week over Twitter or something, and he would keep getting pretty vitriolic hate from those few fags on the interwebs due to the momentous occasion. But trying to clear it up also sort of fucked Flash over, since he was the defining factor - all the Zergs on the team supported him and gave him (seemingly) another chance and he lost it.
But I do agree that he should have emphasized the superior planning by SKT T1 rather than to have noted how 'we lost the Ace match b/c of Flash'.
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He had his player's back. I don't think that Flash would overreact and leave KT, not when he's the team's shining hope.
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Korean netizens making a big deal out of nothing. Where have I seen this before.
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I usually take everything Korean netizens say with a pinch of salt. They tend to be fond of their pitchforks and blow things out of proportion.
I feel that KT coach could've made a better choice with his words, like "뭐 원망하거나 그런건 아니고..." didn't sound that appropriate. However I don't believe that he was trying to make Flash the scapegoat of the finals.
I think he was trying to give alot of credit to flash for stepping up to the plate when they were contemplating whether to prepare him for the ace match or not.
Plus I think in a different interview afterwards he said eventhough flash lost twice, I can't fault him as he has been great since the start of the season. He also wanted to thank Flash for manning up and volunteering for the ace match.
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On April 09 2012 23:21 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Sorry zeehar, but I am Korean (And I speak Korean 100% fluently and understand Korean culture 100%), and this is not just MY opinion, but I am reading the same thing from Korean portals, where they are blaming the coach for 'dissing' Flash.
All the Korean friends who has watched this final just like me thought the coach was a huge dick. This includes people I know in real life, as well as my clan mates, where many of them are Korean. You are absolutely wrong with the fact that he was backing up Flash for manning up? lol. It does not matter if you were there or not, in fact, watching the video is even more precise because I can rewind and listen to his tone and what he said over and over.
My translation makes it sound better than how it was. What he said in Korean was even worse. You don't say 원망하거나 그런건 아니구.. if you don't understand what he's trying to get across here at this point... I will have to take it that you don't understand Korean language very well. What's with telling a full Korean who's lived in Korea for a long time that he doesn't understand Korean culture..?
A proper statement from the coach would have been;
영호가 어려운 맵임에도 불구하고 열심히 싸워줬지만 경기를 져서 유감입니다.
Now, this would have had no problem and would have backed up Flash for playing his heart out on such an unbalanced map.
yeah your version is much better, no doubt about it. but not everyone can say the perfect things to say at the right times. i certainly don't think flash would have construed it as the coach turning on him in any case. i definitely agree that the 원망 bit he could have left out as it was weird when i first heard it, because you can't really blame flash for either for the losses. unless of course you see that last push as a bad decision (think it was, but this is in hindsight of course, apparently not even bisu knew he had that many chargelots lying around).
also, just don't read too much into korean portal sites 댓글 even though i imagine they'd be your main source of news for all things korean... keyboard warriors love to spew their vitriol all over the place ~_~
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This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows.
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i can understand partial egos but i would assume that their coach would have some faith in flash for carrying them for so long. i remember for awhile their lineup was a 2 hit wonder of flash n stats. true they may have lost cause of ego but lets face it.. what bisu did in early game was.. ridic
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Link to interview please?
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On April 10 2012 03:39 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows.
Fantasy isn't really a S-class player. He's more like S minus - Class. The only S-class in my eyes are Bisu/Jaedong/Flash.
His mentality is very weak, he chokes very easily. He choked in Stork OSL finals, finals vs Jaedong, and he almost even let Flash win back this game.
But he is very skilled.
You try to make it sound like KT has a huge disadvantage. They actually have an advantage. They have a S-class player who plays Terran, while SKT has a S-class player who plays Protoss, one semi-S class player who plays Terran. I'll take the former over the latter anyday. Terran at S-class level is unstoppable race....
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On April 09 2012 23:21 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Sorry zeehar, but I am Korean (And I speak Korean 100% fluently and understand Korean culture 100%), and this is not just MY opinion, but I am reading the same thing from Korean portals, where they are blaming the coach for 'dissing' Flash.
All the Korean friends who has watched this final just like me thought the coach was a huge dick. This includes people I know in real life, as well as my clan mates, where many of them are Korean. You are absolutely wrong with the fact that he was backing up Flash for manning up? lol. It does not matter if you were there or not, in fact, watching the video is even more precise because I can rewind and listen to his tone and what he said over and over.
My translation makes it sound better than how it was. What he said in Korean was even worse. You don't say 원망하거나 그런건 아니구.. if you don't understand what he's trying to get across here at this point... I will have to take it that you don't understand Korean language very well. What's with telling a full Korean who's lived in Korea for a long time that he doesn't understand Korean culture..?
A proper statement from the coach would have been;
영호가 어려운 맵임에도 불구하고 열심히 싸워줬지만 경기를 져서 유감입니다.
Now, this would have had no problem and would have backed up Flash for playing his heart out on such an unbalanced map.
Good for you. I'm Korean as well. And unlike you, I'm from Korea (born and raised). The coach wasn't blaming Flash for the loss. He was explaining the reason why Flash played on such a poor map for Terran. His comment at the end about "not holding a grudge" acknowledges how much Flash has done for the team. Learn to read the subtext. Maybe you're not as good at Korean as you think you are...
Just because your parents are Korean, don't take it upon yourself to be the spokesperson for Korean culture. And don't take it upon yourself to be Flash's agent as well either. Flash should leave KT? Please, what do you know about Flash's relationship with the coach? Nothing. All you have is your own interpretation of an open-ended statement made by the coach. Although maybe if you send a nice e-mail to coach, he can hire you as his speech writer since you seem to be the self-appointed expert on everything.
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Without him KT would've been at the bottom of the barrel for years. Coach should've kept his mouth shut even if his intentions were good.
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On April 10 2012 11:00 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 03:39 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows. Fantasy isn't really a S-class player. He's more like S minus - Class. The only S-class in my eyes are Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. His mentality is very weak, he chokes very easily. He choked in Stork OSL finals, finals vs Jaedong, and he almost even let Flash win back this game. But he is very skilled. You try to make it sound like KT has a huge disadvantage. They actually have an advantage. They have a S-class player who plays Terran, while SKT has a S-class player who plays Protoss, one semi-S class player who plays Terran. I'll take the former over the latter anyday. Terran at S-class level is unstoppable race....
Fantasy isn't an S-class player? Are u kidding me? 17-2(or something like that)all proleague season, and now 18-2(I believe even better stats than bisus's)including his win vs flash. Consistently makes top 5 KESPA rankings. Multiple OSL final appearances. I think he even won an OSL, can't remember. Keep in mind bisu STILL has not won an OSL yet. It's like lebron james being compared to michael jordan but jordan has 6 championship rings and lebron has none. I'm sorry I just completely disagree with u here.
His mentality is very weak
I can counter this by saying bisu always had a weak pvt(go back to last proleague finals in this exact situation when they sent out best for ace match instead of bisu cuz bisu was weak in pvt).
And to that last paragraph, I agree with what you said however..that would mean kt would only get 1-0 because flash is the only s-class player on his team while sk has 2-0. This is my point from that post. Sk has many many go to players that can be sent out to ace while flash has to take on the whole burden of the team everytime it's ace time.
Can you imagine what would've happened had flash NOT came out that ace match and they sent someone else out and they ended up losing? Were u there last grand finals when they sent out best instead of bisu? Flash HAS to come out almost every ace match. Espeically more considering it was the final game of the season and ace match.
Who else on kt besides flash can take on bisu skill vs skill.
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On April 10 2012 11:10 MayorITC wrote:
Good for you. I'm Korean as well. And unlike you, I'm from Korea (born and raised). The coach wasn't blaming Flash for the loss. He was explaining the reason why Flash played on such a poor map for Terran. His comment at the end about "not holding a grudge" acknowledges how much Flash has done for the team. Learn to read the subtext. Maybe you're not as good at Korean as you think you are...
Just because your parents are Korean, don't take it upon yourself to be the spokesperson for Korean culture. And don't take it upon yourself to be Flash's agent as well either. Flash should leave KT? Please, what do you know about Flash's relationship with the coach? Nothing. All you have is your own interpretation of an open-ended statement made by the coach. Although maybe if you send a nice e-mail to coach, he can hire you as his speech writer since you seem to be the self-appointed expert on everything.
I was born and raised in Korea as well. I actively participate in Korean literature community, I most definitely do not think my Korean is lacking. The coach's comment on the final stage made it seem like he was scapegoating. How would we know what he meant to say? I really do wish coach didn't mean such way, and maybe he didn't. But maybe he did. Post interview was done a lot better but he had time to think over what to say. At that moment, on the final stage where everyone was watching, it was a slap in the face to Flash. I didn't post this blog to have a discussion or argument, what coach said is right there, and it is what it is. End of discussion. If you don't see the way I do (And literally every Korean friends I showed that aren't even BW fans including my parents)
not holding a grudge does not acknowledge how much Flash has done for the team... if you feel no negativity from 원망하거나 그런건 아니구... then I must say YOU don't understand Korean very well.
I do my best to promote Korean culture to my colleagues and friends abroad. What have you done? You listen to coach's comment from Flash's perspective. It is terrible. I want believe coach didn't mean it that way particularly. However, it was worded terribly and that is what I want to point out.
저 멘트는 누가 보기에도 이영호 입장에선 억장이 무너지는 멘트였습니다. 아, 그리고 님이 쓰신 글은 상당히 불쾌하군요. 인터넷에서도 지킬 예의는 지킵시다. 아무리 요새 사람들이 버릇 없다지만 이런데서 개인적인 공격과 비방은 조금 아닌듯 하네요.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2012 11:54 MaRiNe23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 11:00 GhostOwl wrote:On April 10 2012 03:39 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows. Fantasy isn't really a S-class player. He's more like S minus - Class. The only S-class in my eyes are Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. His mentality is very weak, he chokes very easily. He choked in Stork OSL finals, finals vs Jaedong, and he almost even let Flash win back this game. But he is very skilled. You try to make it sound like KT has a huge disadvantage. They actually have an advantage. They have a S-class player who plays Terran, while SKT has a S-class player who plays Protoss, one semi-S class player who plays Terran. I'll take the former over the latter anyday. Terran at S-class level is unstoppable race.... Fantasy isn't an S-class player? Are u kidding me? 17-2(or something like that)all proleague season, and now 18-2(I believe even better stats than bisus's)including his win vs flash. Consistently makes top 5 KESPA rankings. Multiple OSL final appearances. I think he even won an OSL, can't remember. Keep in mind bisu STILL has not won an OSL yet. It's like lebron james being compared to michael jordan but jordan has 6 championship rings and lebron has none. I'm sorry I just completely disagree with u here. His mentality is very weakI can counter this by saying bisu always had a weak pvt(go back to last proleague finals in this exact situation when they sent out best for ace match instead of bisu cuz bisu was weak in pvt). And to that last paragraph, I agree with what you said however..that would mean kt would only get 1-0 because flash is the only s-class player on his team while sk has 2-0. This is my point from that post. Sk has many many go to players that can be sent out to ace while flash has to take on the whole burden of the team everytime it's ace time. Can you imagine what would've happened had flash NOT came out that ace match and they sent someone else out and they ended up losing? Were u there last grand finals when they sent out best instead of bisu? Flash HAS to come out almost every ace match. Espeically more considering it was the final game of the season and ace match. Who else on kt besides flash can take on bisu skill vs skill.
They could have sent Stats for the ace match. Stats has really good pvp, and pvp is probably Bisu's weakest matchup now. Stats has also beaten Bisu twice and never lost to him. However, I agree that it would have looked really bad if Stats had been sent and lost.
People need to stop underrating Fantasy. He clearly was SKT's best player this year. All of his losses were to good players, Last and Leta, while Bisu had some ridiculous failures against hOn_sin, Wookie and Tyson. Bisu also failed to qualify for the OSL once again, while Fantasy is seeded into the round of 16.
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On April 10 2012 12:28 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 11:54 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 10 2012 11:00 GhostOwl wrote:On April 10 2012 03:39 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows. Fantasy isn't really a S-class player. He's more like S minus - Class. The only S-class in my eyes are Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. His mentality is very weak, he chokes very easily. He choked in Stork OSL finals, finals vs Jaedong, and he almost even let Flash win back this game. But he is very skilled. You try to make it sound like KT has a huge disadvantage. They actually have an advantage. They have a S-class player who plays Terran, while SKT has a S-class player who plays Protoss, one semi-S class player who plays Terran. I'll take the former over the latter anyday. Terran at S-class level is unstoppable race.... Fantasy isn't an S-class player? Are u kidding me? 17-2(or something like that)all proleague season, and now 18-2(I believe even better stats than bisus's)including his win vs flash. Consistently makes top 5 KESPA rankings. Multiple OSL final appearances. I think he even won an OSL, can't remember. Keep in mind bisu STILL has not won an OSL yet. It's like lebron james being compared to michael jordan but jordan has 6 championship rings and lebron has none. I'm sorry I just completely disagree with u here. His mentality is very weakI can counter this by saying bisu always had a weak pvt(go back to last proleague finals in this exact situation when they sent out best for ace match instead of bisu cuz bisu was weak in pvt). And to that last paragraph, I agree with what you said however..that would mean kt would only get 1-0 because flash is the only s-class player on his team while sk has 2-0. This is my point from that post. Sk has many many go to players that can be sent out to ace while flash has to take on the whole burden of the team everytime it's ace time. Can you imagine what would've happened had flash NOT came out that ace match and they sent someone else out and they ended up losing? Were u there last grand finals when they sent out best instead of bisu? Flash HAS to come out almost every ace match. Espeically more considering it was the final game of the season and ace match. Who else on kt besides flash can take on bisu skill vs skill. They could have sent Stats for the ace match. Stats has really good pvp, and pvp is probably Bisu's weakest matchup now. Stats has also beaten Bisu twice and never lost to him. However, I agree that it would have looked really bad if Stats had been sent and lost. People need to stop underrating Fantasy. He clearly was SKT's best player this year. All of his losses were to good players, Last and Leta, while Bisu had some ridiculous failures against hOn_sin, Wookie and Tyson. Bisu also failed to qualify for the OSL once again, while Fantasy is seeded into the round of 16.
I agree with your whole post. It's just that if it was me I still would've sent out flash cuz..well it's flash. I mean hindsight is 20/20, now we know sending out stats might've been the better choice(with the explanation u gave)but who knows what would've happened. Flash just has way more final game ace match experience under his belt and we'll never know how stats would've performed under all that pressure.
Beating bisu a couple times in the regular season is a whole lot differnt than taking on bisu in the ace match which decides whether or not ur team wins the championship. Just like flash has beaten bisu many times before but lost to bisu here.
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Fantasy definitely S class, its 1. Flash then 2. Fantasy
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10387 Posts
On April 10 2012 03:39 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is kinda off-topic-ish and biased, but to me, I feel like SK telecom is stacked like crazy. They have two S-class players bisu and fantasy(who were the only ones to take out flash both times)while KT only has 1 S-class player, flash. And since flash was 0-2 in the final, KT virtually had no "S-class" level player left except the zergs who performed well all throughout the playoffs but are usually inconsistent regular season. And I realize KT has stats who seemed unstoppable during regular season and is overall a solid toss but I wouldn't put him in the same category as bisu,fantasy,flash. And that's my point, sk telecom has 2 of these s-class players and they have best(who's been all the way to the OSL finals before but lost to julyzerg), and they have By.sun who(4-0'ed hwasung oz in the stx soul cup finals taking down s-class player jaedong and very good terran player hiya). Clearly these 4 starting lineups for sk telecom is incredibly unfair for any team and for KT to still make it to the finals every year is just astounding.
I mean just imagine having kobe bryant, michael jordan, lebron james, shaquille o neal in his prime, larry bird, magic johnson all in one fukin team. SK might as well sign jaedong and stork while they're at it. Flash does so much to keep this team together and it's not fair that all the pressure is only on him all the time. At least when fantasy loses, he still knows he has bisu or best or by.sun to pull him out. When flash loses, it's like a more severe blow..AND IM TIRED OF KEEPING THIS IN SO IM JUST GOING TO SAY IT. KT ONLY HAS FLASH PERIOD. I seroiusly dont know how action who is so inconsistent in regular season won every game in the playoffs but all he played were zvz's so who knows.
SKT is only stacked because their coaching staff is the absolute best. Every other team has either just as much or more talent as SKT's players, but lack the coaching staff to bring out their potentials to the fullest. Only KT's coaching staff can compare to SKT's, and that's why the past 4 finals have been SKT vs KT.
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This is probably gonna be my final word on this matter(unless someone responds to me)but I think if any other s-class player were to switch places with flash, they would not be able to take kt as far as flash did/is still doing. Like say..switch flash with bisu...I'm not sure if they can even make the playoffs..I mean maybe they can, but for bisu to take kt to the finals year after year like flash did? I doubt it.
Flash is truely THE star of stars. Sure he loses here and there like when he lost to jangbi to give him his osl win and recently when he lost to bisu but I think if u guys put all bias aside u'll be able to appreciate how great of a player he really is and what he brings to the game. I know I sound like a huge fanboy right now(becuz I am lol)but I consider myself to be pretty unbias in this regard and give respect where it's due. Never did I say bisu or fantsay were bad players. I hate sk BECAUSE they are STACKED with these great players but i respect both bisu and fantasy's skill..it's just even if they beat flash once in a while I still don't consider them in flash's level at all.
For all these years flash has been dominating the broodwar scene and has stood the test of time. While some players after winning one OSL fade into the wind or go into a huge slump or lose on purpose or whatever(i know bad savior joke :p), the fact that flash has been DOMINANT CONSISTENTLY for so many years is truely inspiring. I'm sure all of u know how hard and demanding the game of broodwar is. Guys...the kid just came out of a fukin wrist surgery and was hosptialized for months(?)and comes back and is still the best player in bw LOL. I mean putting every bias I have aside, how many professional athletes do u see who come back from an injury and is able to come back the same(or even better in flash's case). I mean I'm sure you guys would agree with me that a wrist injury or a finger or hand injury for a computer game is pretty big lol.
Flash is still the best player in this game whether he lost this finals or not. He is still capable of winning the osl for several more years. He is still capable of carrying kt to the finals once again and winning. He's doing this year after year after year after year and not just in top 5 but to stay number 1 for that long...u just have to respect that....
Flash is too special of a player and will go down as the top 5...no top 2 player to ever play this game(boxer is number 1 hehe).
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On April 10 2012 14:59 MaRiNe23 wrote:
This is probably gonna be my final word on this matter(unless someone responds to me)but I think if any other s-class player were to switch places with flash, they would not be able to take kt as far as flash did/is still doing. Like say..switch flash with bisu...I'm not sure if they can even make the playoffs..I mean maybe they can, but for bisu to take kt to the finals year after year like flash did? I doubt it.
Flash is truely THE star of stars. Sure he loses here and there like when he lost to jangbi to give him his osl win and recently when he lost to bisu but I think if u guys put all bias aside u'll be able to appreciate how great of a player he really is and what he brings to the game. I know I sound like a huge fanboy right now(becuz I am lol)but I consider myself to be pretty unbias in this regard and give respect where it's due. Never did I say bisu or fantsay were bad players. I hate sk BECAUSE they are STACKED with these great players but i respect both bisu and fantasy's skill..it's just even if they beat flash once in a while I still don't consider them in flash's level at all.
For all these years flash has been dominating the broodwar scene and has stood the test of time. While some players after winning one OSL fade into the wind or go into a huge slump or lose on purpose or whatever(i know bad savior joke :p), the fact that flash has been DOMINANT CONSISTENTLY for so many years is truely inspiring. I'm sure all of u know how hard and demanding the game of broodwar is. Guys...the kid just came out of a fukin wrist surgery and was hosptialized for months(?)and comes back and is still the best player in bw LOL. I mean putting every bias I have aside, how many professional athletes do u see who come back from an injury and is able to come back the same(or even better in flash's case). I mean I'm sure you guys would agree with me that a wrist injury or a finger or hand injury for a computer game is pretty big lol.
Flash is still the best player in this game whether he lost this finals or not. He is still capable of winning the osl for several more years. He is still capable of carrying kt to the finals once again and winning. He's doing this year after year after year after year and not just in top 5 but to stay number 1 for that long...u just have to respect that....
Flash is too special of a player and will go down as the top 5...no top 2 player to ever play this game(boxer is number 1 hehe).
So much fanboyism/bias here that I didn't even want to quote this post...
I admit that Flash is the best player. But you're giving him too much credit. Saying no one else can carry KT like Flash did, something like that we don't know because other great players weren't at KT. If Bisu or Jaedong played Terran, they could be just as dominating imo. The nature of luck-based ZvZ, ZvT fucks over JD, while well Bisu...it's his own fault his PvT isn't that great I guess.
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On April 09 2012 08:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:
WOAH
Woahh .......... Foreal????? KT Coach said that?
I dont think it is that bad... he spoke the truth
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EPT
